0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 136-160 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 166-196 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 136-160 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 166-196 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zama beats it 1v1 w the Lum set I posted if Skel hard switches in- not a counter.
Crunch on switch in- 35%
Wisp- Lum activated, another 35%
Then knock out w a 3rd crunch.
If they don't predict the switch in, you still have to worry about the sub set, or Tera Fire.
On top of all that, Wisp accuracy.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say
if you predict and crunch, if the skeledirge is SpDef, if youre lum you can beatZama beats it 1v1 w the Lum set I posted if Skel hard switches in- not a counter.
Crunch on switch in- 35%
Wisp- Lum activated, another 35%
Then knock out w a 3rd crunch.
If they don't predict the switch in, you still have to worry about the sub set, or Tera Fire.
On top of all that, Wisp accuracy.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say
Ya I don't know man that is a lot of things lining up
just dont think that is an example of how Dirge isnt a really solid answer - requires prediction, a specific uncommon Lum set, and all under assumption Dirge is running 0 Def
Also Torch song goes through Sub
And who runs Lum AND Tera Fire?
Weirdhamster
Banned deucer.
I feel like a lot of people are over exaggerating the strength of zamazenta. The iron press set does have a lot of counters that are ou staples, mainly the poison types running around in the tier such as toxapex and galarian slowking. Even though the iron press set can be a pain for HO to deal with due to zamazenta high speed tier and good defenses, I don’t think it’s actually too bad for the metagame.
Having to splash on a defensive pokémon such as toxapex on your team, doesn’t feel overcentralizing or broken. If your team for example doesn’t have a ground type, it’ll get ran over by specs zapdos, but that doesn’t make zapdos banworthy. Even HO could still beat it by adapting, such as running hurricane dragonite which it has already done previously to beat great tusk pre home.
I’ve only talked about the ironpress set so far, so i thought I’d also talk about the less common choice band set. Whilst on paper, it looks like it has the perfect coverage to beat its typical counters, it also lacks the accessibility to use other moves. So even if you manage to ko the gholdengo on the switchin with crunch, you’re gonna have trouble when another pokémon such as sub calm mind enamorus comes in. I feel like choice band zamazenta is a pokémon that gets a ko, but in return creates bigger problems for itself. Locking into stone edge can allow bulk up tusk in, locking into heavy slam can let nasty plot gholdengo in etc.
Zamazenta can still be outsped by other common meta pokémon. Pokémon such as scarf enamorus, dragapult, scarf gholdengo, booster energy valiant/tusk can all outspeed zamazenta, and deal a lot of damage in return, or cripple it for the future.
Yes, zamazenta is a problem to face with HO, but it can be solved simply by adding a defensive pokémon that can handle it, or adapting to be able to have a more comfortable matchup against it. In my opinion, it isn’t broken or overcentralizing and doesn’t warrant a ban in the current metagame.
Having to splash on a defensive pokémon such as toxapex on your team, doesn’t feel overcentralizing or broken. If your team for example doesn’t have a ground type, it’ll get ran over by specs zapdos, but that doesn’t make zapdos banworthy. Even HO could still beat it by adapting, such as running hurricane dragonite which it has already done previously to beat great tusk pre home.
I’ve only talked about the ironpress set so far, so i thought I’d also talk about the less common choice band set. Whilst on paper, it looks like it has the perfect coverage to beat its typical counters, it also lacks the accessibility to use other moves. So even if you manage to ko the gholdengo on the switchin with crunch, you’re gonna have trouble when another pokémon such as sub calm mind enamorus comes in. I feel like choice band zamazenta is a pokémon that gets a ko, but in return creates bigger problems for itself. Locking into stone edge can allow bulk up tusk in, locking into heavy slam can let nasty plot gholdengo in etc.
Zamazenta can still be outsped by other common meta pokémon. Pokémon such as scarf enamorus, dragapult, scarf gholdengo, booster energy valiant/tusk can all outspeed zamazenta, and deal a lot of damage in return, or cripple it for the future.
Yes, zamazenta is a problem to face with HO, but it can be solved simply by adding a defensive pokémon that can handle it, or adapting to be able to have a more comfortable matchup against it. In my opinion, it isn’t broken or overcentralizing and doesn’t warrant a ban in the current metagame.
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I initially went for reqs with every intention of voting ban. However, in that process I only ran into Zamazenta a few times and it did nothing productive in any of those battles. This isn't hard evidence of anything especially cuz I was spamming a brainless sun team that deals with it pretty well, but it at least made me question my stance. I'll probably still vote to ban Zamazenta due to how obnoxious its sub iron defense set is (seriously that mon has no business being that bulky and fast at the same time), but I am not entirely convinced that it's broken and will probably look into this further before making a final decision.
Just wanted to share my thought process on the suspect test of 
. Initially I thought that Zamazenta-H was to much for OU with it's bulk, speed, and plethora of sets. After doing some laddering and watching a few high level tournament gameplays, my perspective on Zamazenta has changed. I don't find it overwhelming as I did before, in fact, I see it more as a benefit in keeping it in the tier. The ability to check and keep certain physical threats such as 
etc. from getting out of hand definitely has its perks. Being a solid revenge killer also has its uses as well. Not sure if I'm gonna go for reqs with the limited time that we have 
just wanted to share my thoughts atm. I find myself welcoming Hero with open arms, Do Not Ban. 
. Initially I thought that Zamazenta-H was to much for OU with it's bulk, speed, and plethora of sets. After doing some laddering and watching a few high level tournament gameplays, my perspective on Zamazenta has changed. I don't find it overwhelming as I did before, in fact, I see it more as a benefit in keeping it in the tier. The ability to check and keep certain physical threats such as etc. from getting out of hand definitely has its perks. Being a solid revenge killer also has its uses as well. Not sure if I'm gonna go for reqs with the limited time that we have just wanted to share my thoughts atm. I find myself welcoming Hero with open arms, Do Not Ban.
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Don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I'm voting ban
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with the suspect wrapping up soon and also me being busy for the next couple days i just wanted to get my thoughts out albeit it'll probably be pretty scrambled but hopefully my point comes across clearly. im going to be talking about my thoughts on the meta as a whole rn as well so i debated posting this in the metagame thread but i think this is more appropriate because i'll be relating it back to the zamazenta suspect.
originally, when i got my voting reqs here i claimed that i am voting ban. I've since changed my mind drastically after playing more of the meta at different ranges on ladders and against a ton of different people outside of ladder too. I used zamazenta in every game I played to get reqs and I found myself a lot of times in my games when it was on the field "what can my opponent do to stop this" and i thought a lot of times it forced situations that were possible to get out of or to stop the sweep, but extremely difficult and could also get defence drops with crunch to break through stuff you normally shouldn't. i kept playing games though and the more i played i kept running into mons like garganacl, sneasler, kingambit, iron valiant, baxcalibur. i realized, though sometimes metagames can vary in how much margin of error they allow, and right now with a meta in the mons i listed above, theres very little margin of error to win at a high level in this metagame.
i don't claim to be a fantastic player and im not, but i feel like ive played enough games, against people of varying skill levels to say that this "margin of error to win" is very low, though in a metagame with tera it also feels like on preview, no matter how bad the matchup looks on paper, you can always win with tera in the metagame. IMO both of these factors create a unique and enjoyable metagame. when i sit back and look at zamas place in the metagame thus far, i can safely say it's a healthy mon and something that keeps this metagame so unique and enjoyable, *especially* in a metagame with tera.
kingambit, and baxcalibur are in my opinion top 2 and top 10 mons respectively. they're so absurdly strong and very few mons can effectively check them, already when mons are so centralizing like this, if there was no tera you would need to carry multiple checks, but in a metagame with tera that amplifies just how important it is to have strong checks and effective counterplay to threats like gambit and baxcalibur. zamazenta is an absurdly strong check to both of these, and is something that oftentimes is able to check these mons regardless of tera (except for fairy bax, fairy blast kingambit, but we're playing in a tera metagame, i hope you have something that can hit strong fairy teras). Sneasler is another mon zama is able to check, or at the very least if it's the flying tera acrobatics set it's able to revenge kill it if you have no other options (imo, sneasler is worthy of a suspect soon as well)
252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 80 Def Zamazenta: 218-258 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't want to tangent too long on the suspect thread about matters unrelated to Zamazenta, but don't worry, I will make sure it relates back to it. The way that some offensive mons that Zama "checks" are able to brute force its way through is also extremely notable. I have lost games to Sneasler dire clawing my Zamazenta while the Sneasler was at like basically 6 HP and putting me to sleep and winning the game. 16.67% chance sure but it has no risk by clicking Dire Claw if it is about to die & get some chip & perhaps get a para or even a sleep. that itself is an unhealthy mechanic in my opinion, it makes a good metagame so much less enjoyable when you can click like that with 0 risk and potentially winning the game off it. Basically, the point of it is that even heavily chipped Sneasler can bail its way out against Zama thru some hax (and any mon for that matter, which is why I believe it is worthy of a suspect). Not to mention tera fairies can also feast on it, unless it's packing heavy slam. This also creates 4mss for it on the ID/BP sets because it has to choose between sub/heavy slam.
Outside of Zama's presence in the tier helping holding it together defensively, it has a ton of natural checks to prevent a sweep. Specs Dragapult, , Zapdos, Dondozo, both Enamorus, Special Iron Valiant, Slowking-G (havent played around w it too much, so cant say for sure, but FSight + sludge bomb spam seems good against it), I didn't even include any defensive ghosts because of Crunch but both Skeledirge and Gholdengo can do well with tera, or even clean it up if necessary. I honestly cannot speak to Band sets too much, I haven't played with it or ran into it very often, but in my experience it's just as threatening as the ID BP set, meaning it's strong and you have to play well against it, but not unmanageable.
thats about all my thoughts, these are pretty condensed and messy but i think it makes enough sense and hopefully it helps explain the thought process for the DNB vote that I have and we keep the dog
tldr; the meta rn allows for very little margin of error, but thats not because of zama, its just apart of that. in fact, it helps decrease the margin of error against some (imo) more problematic threats. as well as being very manageable to stop offensively. therefore I will be voting Do Not Ban
originally, when i got my voting reqs here i claimed that i am voting ban. I've since changed my mind drastically after playing more of the meta at different ranges on ladders and against a ton of different people outside of ladder too. I used zamazenta in every game I played to get reqs and I found myself a lot of times in my games when it was on the field "what can my opponent do to stop this" and i thought a lot of times it forced situations that were possible to get out of or to stop the sweep, but extremely difficult and could also get defence drops with crunch to break through stuff you normally shouldn't. i kept playing games though and the more i played i kept running into mons like garganacl, sneasler, kingambit, iron valiant, baxcalibur. i realized, though sometimes metagames can vary in how much margin of error they allow, and right now with a meta in the mons i listed above, theres very little margin of error to win at a high level in this metagame.
i don't claim to be a fantastic player and im not, but i feel like ive played enough games, against people of varying skill levels to say that this "margin of error to win" is very low, though in a metagame with tera it also feels like on preview, no matter how bad the matchup looks on paper, you can always win with tera in the metagame. IMO both of these factors create a unique and enjoyable metagame. when i sit back and look at zamas place in the metagame thus far, i can safely say it's a healthy mon and something that keeps this metagame so unique and enjoyable, *especially* in a metagame with tera.
kingambit, and baxcalibur are in my opinion top 2 and top 10 mons respectively. they're so absurdly strong and very few mons can effectively check them, already when mons are so centralizing like this, if there was no tera you would need to carry multiple checks, but in a metagame with tera that amplifies just how important it is to have strong checks and effective counterplay to threats like gambit and baxcalibur. zamazenta is an absurdly strong check to both of these, and is something that oftentimes is able to check these mons regardless of tera (except for fairy bax, fairy blast kingambit, but we're playing in a tera metagame, i hope you have something that can hit strong fairy teras). Sneasler is another mon zama is able to check, or at the very least if it's the flying tera acrobatics set it's able to revenge kill it if you have no other options (imo, sneasler is worthy of a suspect soon as well)
252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 80 Def Zamazenta: 218-258 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't want to tangent too long on the suspect thread about matters unrelated to Zamazenta, but don't worry, I will make sure it relates back to it. The way that some offensive mons that Zama "checks" are able to brute force its way through is also extremely notable. I have lost games to Sneasler dire clawing my Zamazenta while the Sneasler was at like basically 6 HP and putting me to sleep and winning the game. 16.67% chance sure but it has no risk by clicking Dire Claw if it is about to die & get some chip & perhaps get a para or even a sleep. that itself is an unhealthy mechanic in my opinion, it makes a good metagame so much less enjoyable when you can click like that with 0 risk and potentially winning the game off it. Basically, the point of it is that even heavily chipped Sneasler can bail its way out against Zama thru some hax (and any mon for that matter, which is why I believe it is worthy of a suspect). Not to mention tera fairies can also feast on it, unless it's packing heavy slam. This also creates 4mss for it on the ID/BP sets because it has to choose between sub/heavy slam.
Outside of Zama's presence in the tier helping holding it together defensively, it has a ton of natural checks to prevent a sweep. Specs Dragapult, , Zapdos, Dondozo, both Enamorus, Special Iron Valiant, Slowking-G (havent played around w it too much, so cant say for sure, but FSight + sludge bomb spam seems good against it), I didn't even include any defensive ghosts because of Crunch but both Skeledirge and Gholdengo can do well with tera, or even clean it up if necessary. I honestly cannot speak to Band sets too much, I haven't played with it or ran into it very often, but in my experience it's just as threatening as the ID BP set, meaning it's strong and you have to play well against it, but not unmanageable.
thats about all my thoughts, these are pretty condensed and messy but i think it makes enough sense and hopefully it helps explain the thought process for the DNB vote that I have and we keep the dog
tldr; the meta rn allows for very little margin of error, but thats not because of zama, its just apart of that. in fact, it helps decrease the margin of error against some (imo) more problematic threats. as well as being very manageable to stop offensively. therefore I will be voting Do Not Ban
Hey. Here is a brief report of Zamazenta's performance in WCoP thus far. You can find win rates, teras, and common pairings in in Ticken's sheet. Remember numbers don't paint the whole picture and a Pokemon can impact a game even if it never touches the field, but just by being a threat the opponent has to be aware of.
1. Iron Press + Sub + Crunch + Leftovers
Cleaned game vs a healthy Ting-Lu, a weakened Tera Dark Kingambit, and a Specs Dragapult. Worth mentioning how a Specs Dragapult in the back isnt usually enough to deal with a healthy Zamazenta, you have to either preserve Pult healthy or weaken Zamazenta enough with the rest of your team.
2. Choice Band
2HKOs Iron Valiant with CC. Something cool about it is that its a breaker that can use common threats like Kingambit as an entry point (bar Tera), at least 1 time. This is in contrast to other breakers that are either weak to rocks, fragile, or both, and require pivots or more aggressive plays to find their way onto the field.
3. Iron Press + Crunch (no Leftovers)
Gets in against a weakened Great Tusk, but gets stuffed by Glowking
4. Iron Press + Sub + Crunch + Leftovers
Finds entry against Samurott-H. This replay shows it scaring out Garganacl thanks to sub. Ends up getting scared out by Enamorus a lot. Could have potentially done more as it clicked Crunch vs Tusk while behind a sub, instead of clicking Sub or ID again and got Knocked its Leftis off in the process. Refer to turn 41
5. Zama Ditto, both Crunch + Iron Press + Leftovers
One of the Zamazentas got stuffed by Skeledirge early game, only to come back and clean the game once Skele was weakened and forced to tera. The other Zama KOd Glowking and weakened Dragapult, tanking 1 Knock Off, 1 Sludge Bomb, and 1 Shadow Ball in the process.
6. Iron Press + Sub + Leftovers
Sweeps after Iron Valiant is taken care of, even with a Grass Knot Amoonguss on the other side. Gets on the field twice against Great Tusk.
7. Iron Press + Heavy Slam + Leftovers
Cleans game after Pult is KOed and Volcanion weakened a bit. Heavy Slam was notably used to OHKO Iron Valiant, which needed some Atk investment.
8. Heavy Slam + Crunch + Leftovers
Comes to revenge a fully healthy SD Iron Valiant with Spirit Break. It 2HKOs with Heavy Slam while taking a +2 Spirit Break comfortably.
9. Choice Band
Stone Edge KOs Zapdos, Crunch OHKOs Glowking in a crit but gives room to Baxcalibur to setup and win
10. Iron Press + Crunch + Leftovers
Switches into and scares out a Tera Normal Dragonite once. KOs a Zapdos and weakens a Gholdengo.
11. Iron Press + Heavy Slam (No Leftovers)
Scares out a +2 Kingambit. Almost cleans up after Toxapex is gone and sets up in front of +2 Tera Fairy Baxcalibur. Uses Heavy Slam to OHKO Enamorus, which could suggest attack investment or Expert Belt. Toxapex fainted in an "interesting" way and Baxcalibur missed an Icicle Spear, so it could have done way less than it did.
12. Iron Press + Crunch + Leftovers
Weakens Smaurott-Hisui on lead, as well as Glimmora and Gholdengo. Forces Tera Flying on Kingambit and actually forces it out since its needed to help vs the rest of the team.
Cleaned game vs a healthy Ting-Lu, a weakened Tera Dark Kingambit, and a Specs Dragapult. Worth mentioning how a Specs Dragapult in the back isnt usually enough to deal with a healthy Zamazenta, you have to either preserve Pult healthy or weaken Zamazenta enough with the rest of your team.
2. Choice Band
2HKOs Iron Valiant with CC. Something cool about it is that its a breaker that can use common threats like Kingambit as an entry point (bar Tera), at least 1 time. This is in contrast to other breakers that are either weak to rocks, fragile, or both, and require pivots or more aggressive plays to find their way onto the field.
3. Iron Press + Crunch (no Leftovers)
Gets in against a weakened Great Tusk, but gets stuffed by Glowking
4. Iron Press + Sub + Crunch + Leftovers
Finds entry against Samurott-H. This replay shows it scaring out Garganacl thanks to sub. Ends up getting scared out by Enamorus a lot. Could have potentially done more as it clicked Crunch vs Tusk while behind a sub, instead of clicking Sub or ID again and got Knocked its Leftis off in the process. Refer to turn 41
5. Zama Ditto, both Crunch + Iron Press + Leftovers
One of the Zamazentas got stuffed by Skeledirge early game, only to come back and clean the game once Skele was weakened and forced to tera. The other Zama KOd Glowking and weakened Dragapult, tanking 1 Knock Off, 1 Sludge Bomb, and 1 Shadow Ball in the process.
6. Iron Press + Sub + Leftovers
Sweeps after Iron Valiant is taken care of, even with a Grass Knot Amoonguss on the other side. Gets on the field twice against Great Tusk.
7. Iron Press + Heavy Slam + Leftovers
Cleans game after Pult is KOed and Volcanion weakened a bit. Heavy Slam was notably used to OHKO Iron Valiant, which needed some Atk investment.
8. Heavy Slam + Crunch + Leftovers
Comes to revenge a fully healthy SD Iron Valiant with Spirit Break. It 2HKOs with Heavy Slam while taking a +2 Spirit Break comfortably.
9. Choice Band
Stone Edge KOs Zapdos, Crunch OHKOs Glowking in a crit but gives room to Baxcalibur to setup and win
10. Iron Press + Crunch + Leftovers
Switches into and scares out a Tera Normal Dragonite once. KOs a Zapdos and weakens a Gholdengo.
11. Iron Press + Heavy Slam (No Leftovers)
Scares out a +2 Kingambit. Almost cleans up after Toxapex is gone and sets up in front of +2 Tera Fairy Baxcalibur. Uses Heavy Slam to OHKO Enamorus, which could suggest attack investment or Expert Belt. Toxapex fainted in an "interesting" way and Baxcalibur missed an Icicle Spear, so it could have done way less than it did.
12. Iron Press + Crunch + Leftovers
Weakens Smaurott-Hisui on lead, as well as Glimmora and Gholdengo. Forces Tera Flying on Kingambit and actually forces it out since its needed to help vs the rest of the team.
No game time (W) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698482
Only came to get knocked off (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698755
Got Psychic Terrained (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698762
Iron Press + Crunch doesn't do much itself (W) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698841
Lead Screens Steel Beam (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698883
Body Press Leftovers doesn't do much time out (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698915
Missed Stone Edge vs Iron Moth (W) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698921
Only came to get knocked off (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698755
Got Psychic Terrained (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698762
Iron Press + Crunch doesn't do much itself (W) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698841
Lead Screens Steel Beam (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698883
Body Press Leftovers doesn't do much time out (L) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698915
Missed Stone Edge vs Iron Moth (W) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698921
It seems like this guy doesn't tera particularly often, having only terad once out of the 20 games it was in, with that being a Tera Dark. This isn't very surprising as the usual Tera-types in Dark, Fire, and even Fighting, Electric, and Fairy tend to be rather specific, and the Pokemon that force them can be dealt with by teammates. For example Dragapult clicking Wisp or Shadow Ball is Garganacl food.
An usage stat of 21.74% makes it Top 10 in usage, with a winrate of 55%. With Great Tusk, Kingambit, Enamorus, and Slowking-Galar being one of its most common teammates, its fair to say it tends to find itself in BO structures for the most part, while also having a place in HO. It fits as a cleaner and occasional check to Great Tusk, Kingambit, Dragonite, among other physical attackers.
Despite some other sets being mentioned in this thread or tried in ladder, it appears that Iron Press is the most common set by far, with the last 2 moves going to Crunch and either Sub or Heavy Slam. The exact EVs change a lot though, as some variants use Attack or SpDef investment. Choice Band also has its uses, and turns Zamazenta into an incredibly tanky wallbreaker.
As for checks, Dragapult, Valiant, Enamorus, and Slowking-Galar have insane amount of usage, being top 3-6 respectively. Top 2 in usage Kingambit is shown to be opting for Tera Flying and Fairy a lot more. Other checks like Zapdos, Toxapex, Dondozo, and Skeledirge are sitting at top 7, 22, 26 and 32, respectively.
An usage stat of 21.74% makes it Top 10 in usage, with a winrate of 55%. With Great Tusk, Kingambit, Enamorus, and Slowking-Galar being one of its most common teammates, its fair to say it tends to find itself in BO structures for the most part, while also having a place in HO. It fits as a cleaner and occasional check to Great Tusk, Kingambit, Dragonite, among other physical attackers.
Despite some other sets being mentioned in this thread or tried in ladder, it appears that Iron Press is the most common set by far, with the last 2 moves going to Crunch and either Sub or Heavy Slam. The exact EVs change a lot though, as some variants use Attack or SpDef investment. Choice Band also has its uses, and turns Zamazenta into an incredibly tanky wallbreaker.
As for checks, Dragapult, Valiant, Enamorus, and Slowking-Galar have insane amount of usage, being top 3-6 respectively. Top 2 in usage Kingambit is shown to be opting for Tera Flying and Fairy a lot more. Other checks like Zapdos, Toxapex, Dondozo, and Skeledirge are sitting at top 7, 22, 26 and 32, respectively.
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First time posting my thoughts on any thread, forgive me for rookie mistakes.
I was initially of the opinion that if any of the dogs deserved a QB, it was the Hero form for the below reasons -
1. Freedom to hold an item
2. Faster speed tier makes offensive sets more effective - outspeeds the entire tier save Pult
3. Crown form's steel typing had more cons than pros- weak to common offensive types like Fighting/Fire/Ground
Based on my experience on the ladder, I too like many others have changed my mind on Zama-H. The mon is a solid S tier threat to the metagame, is versatile in its roles and has a strong place in any team structure be it HO, BO or Balance, and acts as a healthy presence to the tier checking demons like the gambits of the world. However, it is far from being banworthy. It is not hard to scout against, is quite manageable to deal with once you have correctly identified its set. I also believe it is one of the few mons that doesn't benefit from Terastallizing exponentially / to the same extent other broken threats in the past have been accused of (namely volc/espathra). One does not need to play a guessing game while tip toeing around this mon the same way you'd have to around volcarona, kingambit or even baxcalibur for that matter. Defensive terastallization has its opportunity cost, and the common Fire/Electric/Dark types are not that difficult to deal with in my opinion.
For these reasons, I will be voting Do Not Ban. I am also of the opinion that Zama-C deserves another look from the council, be it through another suspect or otherwise, since I believe it is the weaker of the two. I strongly suspect the Pro Tera-Ban chants are going to grow louder at the conclusion of this test, so I do hope QBs like Zama-C get a another look before we cross that darn bridge.
Tyrion was wrong, it's easier to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on its head.
I was initially of the opinion that if any of the dogs deserved a QB, it was the Hero form for the below reasons -
1. Freedom to hold an item
2. Faster speed tier makes offensive sets more effective - outspeeds the entire tier save Pult
3. Crown form's steel typing had more cons than pros- weak to common offensive types like Fighting/Fire/Ground
Based on my experience on the ladder, I too like many others have changed my mind on Zama-H. The mon is a solid S tier threat to the metagame, is versatile in its roles and has a strong place in any team structure be it HO, BO or Balance, and acts as a healthy presence to the tier checking demons like the gambits of the world. However, it is far from being banworthy. It is not hard to scout against, is quite manageable to deal with once you have correctly identified its set. I also believe it is one of the few mons that doesn't benefit from Terastallizing exponentially / to the same extent other broken threats in the past have been accused of (namely volc/espathra). One does not need to play a guessing game while tip toeing around this mon the same way you'd have to around volcarona, kingambit or even baxcalibur for that matter. Defensive terastallization has its opportunity cost, and the common Fire/Electric/Dark types are not that difficult to deal with in my opinion.
For these reasons, I will be voting Do Not Ban. I am also of the opinion that Zama-C deserves another look from the council, be it through another suspect or otherwise, since I believe it is the weaker of the two. I strongly suspect the Pro Tera-Ban chants are going to grow louder at the conclusion of this test, so I do hope QBs like Zama-C get a another look before we cross that darn bridge.
Tyrion was wrong, it's easier to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on its head.
I feel like a lot of arguments that people are giving for keeping Zamazenta have the idea of banning and not banning something backwards.
Regardless of whether it really is broken or not, most of the arguments I'm seeing seem to want Zamazenta in the tier because it helps stave off other threats that are seen as being just as if not more dangerous, such as Kingambit and Baxcalibur, and the meta would otherwise be worse without it keeping them at bay.
Here's the thing though: You don't counter broken with broken. If Zamazenta is broken, then it doesn't matter if it defends against other broken threats, because it would still be an unhealthy presence on top of the others it's being used against. Keeping it in the tier for that reason will only make matters worse because then you'll have more overpowered threats in the tier that are not made clear on how overpowered they really are because something checks them in the tier when it otherwise shouldn't be in the tier.
If you want to make a case for Zamazenta to stay (or anything for the matter), then use a different argument than this. If we're keeping something that just so happens to be broken to stave off other broken threats, then just suspect all of the broken threats instead of making a meta worse by forcing the power ceiling too high. We're not keeping Palafin in OU just because it can check Chi-Yu, so stop trying to make that a similar case for Zamazenta.
Regardless of whether it really is broken or not, most of the arguments I'm seeing seem to want Zamazenta in the tier because it helps stave off other threats that are seen as being just as if not more dangerous, such as Kingambit and Baxcalibur, and the meta would otherwise be worse without it keeping them at bay.
Here's the thing though: You don't counter broken with broken. If Zamazenta is broken, then it doesn't matter if it defends against other broken threats, because it would still be an unhealthy presence on top of the others it's being used against. Keeping it in the tier for that reason will only make matters worse because then you'll have more overpowered threats in the tier that are not made clear on how overpowered they really are because something checks them in the tier when it otherwise shouldn't be in the tier.
If you want to make a case for Zamazenta to stay (or anything for the matter), then use a different argument than this. If we're keeping something that just so happens to be broken to stave off other broken threats, then just suspect all of the broken threats instead of making a meta worse by forcing the power ceiling too high. We're not keeping Palafin in OU just because it can check Chi-Yu, so stop trying to make that a similar case for Zamazenta.
I was leaning very strongly towards ban in the beginning but since I`ve been more mindful of it while teambuilding its struck me as less broken. Im still on the verge however and not entirely sure about how I feel about having a dedicated spot in all my teams just for handling Zam. Everything else you can kinda play around or RK if you play mindful, keep momentum etc. Unless youre playing full stall you`ll never be able to fully counter every mon that could be thrown at you.
However I feel like with Zam you cant do that. You need a counter for this mon or youll get 6-0. No Rking, no playing around it or wearing it down. This also means that you must preserve them during the fight at all costs. So lets look at those counters:
There are 3 defensive options that come to mind that do the job quite well: Skele, Tox and Dondozo. However those are complete momentum drains that spend most of the game clicking recover (or bloody sleeping in dondozos case) which in my opinion cant as easily be slapped in many teams as people claim. Tox is the only one Id consider "slapable" but the fact that its AV set loses to zam is a big drawback cause that forces you to play a very slow version of tox as well.
Now if Tera didnt exist I would say that there are multiple offensive mons which are strong, viable and totally capable of handling Zam and keep it in check. Enamerous, Iron Valiant, Zapdos, Wisp Pult. If youre running an offensive team relying on one of these guys and you run into Fire Tera with id bp, crunch and stone edge you just auto lose on the spot. Does this open Zam up to be countered by other mons it would usually beat now like Amoonguss - sure but that doesnt really help you in that situation. However whether thats a Zam problem or a Tera problem is a different question. You could suspect Kingambit with the same reasoning but many people ARE proposing that and we banned Volc for the very same reason as well.
tl;dr: I am not sure yet. I feel like the part that makes it problematic is how its offensive checks are very unreliable based on its set, its defensive counters are hard to fit into some teams and its nigh impossible to play around it if you dont have an adequate answer ready (and preserved throughout the fight).
However I feel like with Zam you cant do that. You need a counter for this mon or youll get 6-0. No Rking, no playing around it or wearing it down. This also means that you must preserve them during the fight at all costs. So lets look at those counters:
There are 3 defensive options that come to mind that do the job quite well: Skele, Tox and Dondozo. However those are complete momentum drains that spend most of the game clicking recover (or bloody sleeping in dondozos case) which in my opinion cant as easily be slapped in many teams as people claim. Tox is the only one Id consider "slapable" but the fact that its AV set loses to zam is a big drawback cause that forces you to play a very slow version of tox as well.
Now if Tera didnt exist I would say that there are multiple offensive mons which are strong, viable and totally capable of handling Zam and keep it in check. Enamerous, Iron Valiant, Zapdos, Wisp Pult. If youre running an offensive team relying on one of these guys and you run into Fire Tera with id bp, crunch and stone edge you just auto lose on the spot. Does this open Zam up to be countered by other mons it would usually beat now like Amoonguss - sure but that doesnt really help you in that situation. However whether thats a Zam problem or a Tera problem is a different question. You could suspect Kingambit with the same reasoning but many people ARE proposing that and we banned Volc for the very same reason as well.
tl;dr: I am not sure yet. I feel like the part that makes it problematic is how its offensive checks are very unreliable based on its set, its defensive counters are hard to fit into some teams and its nigh impossible to play around it if you dont have an adequate answer ready (and preserved throughout the fight).
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After a few days of battling more and reading posts on this thread I've come to a final decision on how I'll be voting.
As stated in my post above, I went for reqs in the first place because I wanted to ban Zamazenta. This was honestly based more on disliking the mon than actually thinking it was unhealthy or centralizing, which is not a legitimate reason to ban something. I found it super interesting that my experience of finding Zamazenta to be underwhelming while laddering for reqs was shared by others. Multiple people on here have mentioned checks/counters to Zamazenta's sub iron defense set (which I believe is the whole reason that it should have been suspect tested to begin with) such as Enamorus, Iron Valiant, Dragapult, Skeledirge, Zapdos, and Slowking-Galar. Along with this, we now have some results from high-level games involving Zamazenta.
This post was super informative; it showed that while Zamazenta is certainly a great mon capable of cleaning up opponent teams late for the win, it has more than a few checks/counters that are quite common in the current metagame. Furthermore, 21.74% usage combined with a 55% win rate just isn't enough to convince me that Zamazenta is dominating the tier like other mons that have been banned. I have changed my mind and will now be voting do not ban.
It’s specifically in the current blind Tera meta that zamazenta does a great job of blanket checking threats that are at the peak of viability.
you need to assess it in the current meta, it’s not rational to extrapolate “broken checks broken” as the typical anti-ban thought from people saying words to the extent of “this super strong threat that would be broken in any other meta feels very restrained in this meta and conveniently checks some potentially broken Pokémon due to the blind Tera meta”.
It’s not that it’s a stereotypical broken thing like magearna, checking another broken thing like chien pao.
different type of conversation. Apples to oranges.
this dog is on a leash in the current meta.
I personally very much disagree with your crowned stance. The steel typing makes it neutral to many of the special attacks used to take zama-h out, so offense severely struggles because it is still unbreakable physically, and it is immune to toxic/tspikes so that is also not possible either. it is also much stronger with its body press set, 140 is in a different league from 115 so it is far easier to sweep entire teams after a single Iron Defense. Crowned is absolutely broken and does not deserve a retest.
Zamazenta-Hero remains legal in SV OU!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3723659/page-5#post-9683118
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3723659/page-5#post-9683118
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