Nanulak
formerly PokefanKIV
I think that’s just me lol
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - London Bridge is Falling Down
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
This is probably apples to oranges - Focus Sash Glimmora is a perfectly reasonable pick in OU with a one-of-a-kind niche, but perhaps not fully optimal for Archaludon removal in the midgame. Focus Sash Marshadow is unviable cheese that is largely inert unless it gets a good matchup and your opponent forgets they can switch out, and it's also outclassed by Ditto as an anti-setup revenge killer.
In any case, it's unlikely that you'll run into AV Archaludon with absolutely zero bulk investment. Usually there's a bit of HP sprinkled in at least.
I honestly don't think that the metagame will improve a lot if archaludon is banned, yes archa rain is strong but many strong teams are prepped, and these teams aren't just ok vs archa rain but good in general. If we look at last spl week, there was only 2 rain ( and it was a mirror ), most of the teams had some tools against archa rain without being 100-0 by the rest of the metagame and without clodsire too lol
Moreover, Archaludon has a defensive utility, being able to check kingambit and roaring moon is great, I strongly think that it helps to keep these mons less strong ( even if they already are ), I'm not a lover of broken check broken but it's a good point here
Vert said that u could use duraludon over archaludon but honestly without electro shot and stamina, I feel like it will be a significiant nerf of rain, enough to dissuade ppl to use rain like before.
Building bulky offense is hard but I do not think that archa will give BO a better shot, and if it gives a better shot, will it be good news for the tier ?
I was not there before dlc but banning 1504,65 mons didn't seem to be a good solution imo, if you remove a broken mon to let another mon take his place, this is just useless at this point, I feel like it would be better to accept that the tier is like that since discussing abt tera isn't in the plans for the moment.
I think that archa will be banned anyway, I'm just scared that after that you will suspect rm, volcarona, gouging fire, raging bolt and just doing what you've done during pre-dlc, instead of trying to adapt our playstyle, we're gonna ban every strong mon, just to understand that it's an infinite loop.
Maybe some ppl won't agree but I think that the main problem in the tier isn't these mons and I think that as long as we don't discuss about it, this tier will stay like this.
I understand people who think that archa is broken asf and should be banned, but I'm wondering what will be the future of the tier with this ban.
For the moment I'll vote dnb as I did for kyurem and as I will do for every suspect mon in the future, my point is that either we accept that there are broken mons in the tier and we try to play with them, or we ban every broken mon and we're probably gonna have a replay of what you've seen before dlc, personally, I'll prefer to play with these strong mons.
( PS: I know that this forum is only for archa, I'm not a tera hater but I think that before discussing about broken mons, we should take a look on this mechanics )
wah le pavlar y'en a des mots
Hasta Luego
Moreover, Archaludon has a defensive utility, being able to check kingambit and roaring moon is great, I strongly think that it helps to keep these mons less strong ( even if they already are ), I'm not a lover of broken check broken but it's a good point here
Vert said that u could use duraludon over archaludon but honestly without electro shot and stamina, I feel like it will be a significiant nerf of rain, enough to dissuade ppl to use rain like before.
Building bulky offense is hard but I do not think that archa will give BO a better shot, and if it gives a better shot, will it be good news for the tier ?
I was not there before dlc but banning 1504,65 mons didn't seem to be a good solution imo, if you remove a broken mon to let another mon take his place, this is just useless at this point, I feel like it would be better to accept that the tier is like that since discussing abt tera isn't in the plans for the moment.
I think that archa will be banned anyway, I'm just scared that after that you will suspect rm, volcarona, gouging fire, raging bolt and just doing what you've done during pre-dlc, instead of trying to adapt our playstyle, we're gonna ban every strong mon, just to understand that it's an infinite loop.
Maybe some ppl won't agree but I think that the main problem in the tier isn't these mons and I think that as long as we don't discuss about it, this tier will stay like this.
I understand people who think that archa is broken asf and should be banned, but I'm wondering what will be the future of the tier with this ban.
For the moment I'll vote dnb as I did for kyurem and as I will do for every suspect mon in the future, my point is that either we accept that there are broken mons in the tier and we try to play with them, or we ban every broken mon and we're probably gonna have a replay of what you've seen before dlc, personally, I'll prefer to play with these strong mons.
( PS: I know that this forum is only for archa, I'm not a tera hater but I think that before discussing about broken mons, we should take a look on this mechanics )
wah le pavlar y'en a des mots
Hasta Luego
Last edited:
Vert was memeing there. He copied word for word the post of someone who is not capable of getting reqs that just didn't understand Eviolite Duraludon is shitty. Seriously, don't let that meme post convince you to vote Do Not Ban.
Vert has previously stated that Archaludon is broken at the start of the Indigo Disk meta, and I doubt his stance has changed since then. IIRC, Finchinator said that the OU Council was unanimous on wanting action on Archaludon, which means even Vert wanted this suspect test.
This was very clearly a meme that was a copypaste of a prior post.
Sorry but this fearmongering about how banning Arch will start a seemingly infinite ban streak is not productive. Even with Tera I’m 100% certain mons like Great Tusk, Meowscarada, and Cinderace will not end up getting banned. The lower tiers managed to have a balanced metagame in the past even with Tera, they’re only in chaos because of the initial tier shifts from this month and last month.
There is a difference between something that is strong like Great Tusk and something that is polarizing like Archaludon. Its a problem when most of the metagame is just HO, Weather, and Stall, part of the reason why its a problem is cause of Archaludon (and also Moon).
We do not vote while considering collateral, because if we did, then that would mean a lot of things would not be banned. This is what people call "Broken checks Broken" in a meta, which is horrible to play as it becomes very matchup fishy and sometimes games can be won or lost on the spot. If something is broken right now, ban it. We can deal with the other broken things that come out, but we do not try to keep things because the keep other things in check, if only one mon is keeping them from dominating the tier, that means they are broken as well. I also find issue with the "instead of trying to adapt our playstyle" bit, that is fundamentally wrong. People do adapt to rain, that is why teams are good against rain right now, they adapted specifically for rain extremely hard, and sometimes even that is not enough. The rise in clodsire usage (which is still good, but not to the usage it is) and stall usage is because of rain because they are the only things that can reliably deal, and even then clod can be beaten by e-quake variants.
This honestly seems like you don't understand how tiering fundamentally works, that things have to get banned. When should we not ban things? Because let me tell you, you will end up with a really shitty metagame if we apply your logic to tiering, as nothing will get banned ever.
Anyway this won't be that long of a post since I don't think people read anything on this thread or Kyurem would've been banned.
I've stated months ago that Arch should be on the radar and I got haha'd, this was probably a week into the meta? so I guess it was pretty fresh and people didn't realize how strong of a mon it truly was. From Mid-December to Mid-Feb nothing much has changed in terms of its most dominating set which is Assault Vest, some people use Leftovers + Grassy Terrain but the best set is Assault Vest, because if you do attempt to Knock Off you're giving it +1 Defense boost off the bat. It's pretty much weather wars at this point, Glowking in my honest opinion has turned into a top 5 Pokemon mainly because of Chilly Reception + Handling SpA monsters. Clodsire seemed to be a good Counter to Arch up until it started carrying Earthquake on some of its sets. Arch also destroys most Stall Structures unless you plan on using Tera (the stall team should either have a Clodsire or Glowking).
As a lot of posts have said here, even if we ban Arch we're still dealing with a shitty meta, it just barely moves the needle. Arch is problematic in a sense where it puts a lot of pressure on team builder like Kyurem does, but Arch forces people to spam brainless rain structures that look like Arch + Pelipper + Barraskewda + Treads + Raging Bolt + Filler Mon. Once this suspect test passes lets keep moving on to see what else is problematic and suspect it because I don't really care for this suspect test, It's going to get banned and the meta will still be undesirable. I'm voting ban.
I've stated months ago that Arch should be on the radar and I got haha'd, this was probably a week into the meta? so I guess it was pretty fresh and people didn't realize how strong of a mon it truly was. From Mid-December to Mid-Feb nothing much has changed in terms of its most dominating set which is Assault Vest, some people use Leftovers + Grassy Terrain but the best set is Assault Vest, because if you do attempt to Knock Off you're giving it +1 Defense boost off the bat. It's pretty much weather wars at this point, Glowking in my honest opinion has turned into a top 5 Pokemon mainly because of Chilly Reception + Handling SpA monsters. Clodsire seemed to be a good Counter to Arch up until it started carrying Earthquake on some of its sets. Arch also destroys most Stall Structures unless you plan on using Tera (the stall team should either have a Clodsire or Glowking).
As a lot of posts have said here, even if we ban Arch we're still dealing with a shitty meta, it just barely moves the needle. Arch is problematic in a sense where it puts a lot of pressure on team builder like Kyurem does, but Arch forces people to spam brainless rain structures that look like Arch + Pelipper + Barraskewda + Treads + Raging Bolt + Filler Mon. Once this suspect test passes lets keep moving on to see what else is problematic and suspect it because I don't really care for this suspect test, It's going to get banned and the meta will still be undesirable. I'm voting ban.
Bc u think that banning every mon like u did last year is a great idea ? I'm just trying to say that something should change, and it's not by repeating the same thing as banning every strong mon that u will have a great meta
Moreover, ppl adapt to rain bc It's a strong structure as sun, as HO, as stall, as w/e, if u consider that u should ban a mon bc you need to prep against, then u will have to ban many mons in the tier, and thats why I'm saying It's not the good path imo, I understand what u say but i don't agree, and yes, for me, we need to consider collateral, bc when u ban a mon, u think abt the meta after him, so yes, I consider the future of the tier with archa ban
Moreover 2, there are so many threats in the tier, u will have to accept it, and the problem won't be resolved by banning half of the tier in my opinion
Going from banning 1 Pokemon to banning half the tier is quite the stretch. The point of the discussion is if Archaludon is broken, not what you personally predict will or will not happen over the last two years of the generation. Of course, if you think Archaludon is balanced, that's entirely fine, but some of these stretches and tangents are a bit silly.
Not saying that, we don't know if we will get a great meta, but what's the problem with not trying. We may not get a great meta, but if we take that attitude you want that banning every strong mon will not get a good meta and thus we should keep things as they are, then we are guarenteed to not get a good meta.
It may be a schrodinger's cat kind of scenario with how the meta may turn out, but that's better than leaving it in a house fire, if you get what I'm saying. Thing's will not change until we make them change, the metas that people liked in SV were becuase of bans happening, not because of player adaption. Let's look at Chien Pao, that mon is bonkers broken but it did lead to baxcalibur being banned as it was superior to bax in most regards. But I think that everybody would say that a Chien-Pao-less meta is much superior. I know that is a low hanging fruit, but applying your logic does not get us anywhere, the only change that happens is if we make bans happen.
Banning many mons in a tier means that at its core, the tier is fundementally unbalanced. We think about the meta in the case of "what mons are most broken right now". If something else broken pops up, cool, we deal with that. Would you consider moon or kyurem healthy? In my case no, they are not healthy. And again, if one mon is keeping something from destroying a tier, that ain't healthy. We have maybe max 10 bans to get this meta into a good place, most likely half that if we are being realistic. Most mons in the tier are balanced, just a few are not. If you think arch is not broken, cool. That's fine. But don't vote dnb because other things may become broken, that is impeding metagame growth. Because while people adapt, things can be healthy. Do you think SS Zacian was balanced in Ubers because it was checked by Quagsire and other Ubers could become broken? No, it was so bullshit that people banned it, and the meta became better for it. We don't know how the meta will turn out, as I have stated, so please try to take that into account.
You say that we will need max 10 bans, but how can u know that ? we can't predict the tier after archa ban, and we can't predict after every other possible bans, I'm taking the example of Baxcalibur, he wasn't in the top 30 usage before chien pao, annihilape and every other pre-dlc ban and he has been banned after all of these bans.
I'm not saying that we need to let the tier like that, but I do think that we should discuss abt tera before, but here It's archa suspect so I'm not gonna speak abt it.
If u want to keep tera, It's ok, but I don't think that u will have a viable tier with tera and with 50 bans and for me, It's better to try to adapt us with a tier with broken shit.
Moreover, I will vote dnb not only because what I've said, but also bc i never had problem with him, ingame or in building, and bc I don't think it will lead us to a better metagame.
" We don't know how the meta will turn out, as I have stated, so please try to take that into account. "
I totally agree with this, we don't know, this is why I understand ur thoughts, I'm just saying that for me, the path of banning every broken mon won't lead to a better tier until we don't discuss abt what I think is the main problem.
Sincerely,
Me
Yes mb, but I think it's important to try to see what could be the future of the tier with archa ban
lower tiers isn't OU anyway, I agree that the argument of the infinite loop isn't relevant if it was the only argument, but I add this to my personal thoughts about this mon, which is I don't find him broken and I do not think that he should be banned. but IN the case of it's ban, I hope It won't open the path of banning 10 other mons until the next gen
Moreover, speaking abt great tusk&co, we can't be sure, how many time a mon started from the bottom now he's banned
I just wanted to mention that the increased use of rain teams is not inherently a problem. Pelipper's usage rate is 8.36%, which we can interpret as the overall usage of rain teams. This translates to about 1 in every 12 games featuring rain. Furthermore, the combination of Pelipper and Archaludon appears in about 1 in every 13.3 games. This frequency is not excessively high. In fact, it's comparable to the usage rate of rain teams in Generation 8, which was about 1 in every 13.7 games over the last 6 months. So, feel free to discuss Archaludon in any way you choose, but don't claim that the ladder is FLOOOOODED with rain (ba dum tss).
TBH rain isnt that common on the ladder right now and most of the time doesnt feel like a problem. 99% of the people who play it are flowchart button clickers who could be replaced by a computer program. However, u occasionally run into someone who is playing rain and also has a brain and it feels completely overwhelming. There isnt really a whole lot u can do against people who position their arch in a smart manner and dont let it get knocked off for no reason aside from throw mon after mon at it until it dies, taking at least 1 and a half with it(unless you have a cteam(clod)).
The mon just makes rain too well rounded and covers for most of its traditional weaknesses, especially in conjunction with raging bolt(also broken in weather but bigger problem in sun). The meta has certainly adapted recently and rain has seen a general fall off at all levels of play but I dont think that the adaptation is necessarily healthy and we might see a wider variety of structures come around with arch being banned that could help neutralize a lot of the other broken stuff in the meta without having to worry about arch.
The mon just makes rain too well rounded and covers for most of its traditional weaknesses, especially in conjunction with raging bolt(also broken in weather but bigger problem in sun). The meta has certainly adapted recently and rain has seen a general fall off at all levels of play but I dont think that the adaptation is necessarily healthy and we might see a wider variety of structures come around with arch being banned that could help neutralize a lot of the other broken stuff in the meta without having to worry about arch.
Sash Hex Twave Will-o-wisp Darts Dragapult is basically the best sweeper-stopper in the tier, so there's that.
Cant argue with that can you. Tough ass pic, mind if I screenshot?
i dont play that much gen9ou(as it feels very deadweight to me,click setup moves and click tera and match finish) but what i have seen past these months...i 100% agree with your takes..respect!
Nanulak
formerly PokefanKIV
Nope! Not at all! And I just gotta say, love how the ancient Paradoxes are all fierce and fired up whilst the future Paradoxes are kinda just there, like robots XD
This thread has trailblazers paving new paths for anti-ban argumentation such as:
- posing seemingly random, staged 1v1s
- implying pre-evolutions are stronger than the suspects themselves
- posting pictures of mythical Pokemon that you have framed above your childhood bed
- Clodsire worship
That's official artwork of all the Paradox Pokémon to promote the recent TCG set
Nanulak
formerly PokefanKIV
Oh. Ok
- Status