Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Oops!...I Did It Again

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How is my argument a strawman? Pro ban players believe terra is too unpredictable and makes it hard to counter. They either want it to be outright banned or limited to one or show which mon has the terra. A literal meta where you know what everything is going to do. That's not strawman that's literally what pro ban players want. Less unpredictably and randomness. Do you know what a strawman is?
Strawman: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument"

You initially insisted that pro-ban players want "battles where you pretty much knew what every mon was going to do", and have "little no randomness at all". No pro-ban advocate has ever said anything close to either of those things.

Now, it is true that the extra layer of unpredictability Tera provides is a problem we have with it, and it's also true that we want to ban or restrict it. But it's both irrational and objectively false to insist that that means we have a problem with all (or nearly all) forms of unpredictability or randomness. We don't need you to put words in our mouths.
 
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Clearly you have not faced a Ghost Tera Dragapult.

But seriously, just because people don’t mention them doesn’t mean returning mons besides Dragonite aren’t serious Tera threats. New toy syndrome is as strong as always, so people are more focused on funny acro dragon and the like, but saying they aren’t broken because people haven’t talked about them much is a bad take. Also, if you looked through threads other than this one, discussion about Dragapult has been almost entirely either ‘yeah, definitely a sleeper brokemon’, or people like you saying ‘well, I haven’t seen it much. It can’t be that bad’.
Yeah... but....
That's the entire point of this thread?
The point of the discussion is to establish what pokemon become broken with Tera, so if the Pro-ban side aren't discussing potentially broken mons, it either means that they're not arguing their case well, or the mon isn't broken.

I also did acknowledge that there was discussion about pult, I was referring to Kingambit, Valiant & Moon as the ones without much discussion.
 
Now that I got reqs and hit top 500 on my ladder alt I wanted to speak my mind on tera because I think I understand more than one month ago. Part of what I didn't like about it before was crazy unpredictable type changes so I thought only stab tera made the most sense to implement before the suspect test started. I've come to realize that this would be super bad for balance and stall teams vs more offensive ones as offense benefits far more from stab while both have a lot to benefit from new type teras.

I do not like the idea of banning tera outright because it is really fun to use and involves a decent amount of skill to wield effectively but this meta is so crazy that something must be done. Even if I enjoy playing it I understand smogon likes to make competitive metagames and there is too much craziness right now and tera is at the heart of it. No action is thus the worst option to me. Outright ban is the second worst because I think that tera can be healthy if restricted properly.

Then it comes to the restrictions. I already said why I think stab only tera is a bad idea. But I am torn between reveal at preview and one per team. There can be some annoying cteam teras like tera ghost volc for tera normal espeed dnite which I have lost to. Knowing this from preview would of let me play different. But only one mon teraing takes a lot of the pressure off to have to worry about it even if it is unpredictable. These both make the tier a lot better so I will be happy with either as the outcome. But I am still undecided. If there is anything else I am missing please correct me but I will otherwise flip a coin to make my vote for one or the other (once I get my allowance)!
 
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This has already been mentioned several times already and it’s not a good solution. If the first wave of abusers got banned, the people would just find a new wave of abusers, then they would get banned.
as has been said multiple times, prove it. What mons do you believe would fill the gaps, and why are they not a problem already and/or in uu? If you cant answer that, then your argument is pure theorymoning
 
as has been said multiple times, prove it. What mons do you believe would fill the gaps, and why are they not a problem already and/or in uu? If you cant answer that, then your argument is pure theorymoning
Volc replaces Dnite as a set-up defensive Tera abuser, but it is not a problem due to it lacking multi scale and priority.
Zard replaces Chi-Yu as a sun Tera nuke, but it has to be paired with hazard removal and thus will drop to UU.
Chien-Pao may replace Dragapult as a physical nuke. It still is fast, and has a higher attack stat than Pult. However, Dondozo could be an easy switch to it, while Pult can U-turn out to be sure.
Espathra is unique, but if it is banned just because of Tera, then there must be a problem.
Annihilape would get replaced with Primeape. This sounds like a joke, but Primeape can boost its bulk with eviolite, and still has rage fist.
 
Espathra is unique, but if it is banned just because of Tera, then there must be a problem.
In Gen 7, Naganadel got banned "just because" of Z moves. Clearly, there must be a problem with Z moves.

Is it that crazy to think that the mon with Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and Stored Power might be a little broken? I personally don't even think it's that bad without Tera, but mons can be broken on their own. And yes - Tera is the problem with Espathra. But clearly there are plenty of mons not broken by Tera, so its silly to point to the fact that it could be banned as a problem with the mechanic in general.
 
Volc replaces Dnite as a set-up defensive Tera abuser, but it is not a problem due to it lacking multi scale and priority.
Zard replaces Chi-Yu as a sun Tera nuke, but it has to be paired with hazard removal and thus will drop to UU.
Chien-Pao may replace Dragapult as a physical nuke. It still is fast, and has a higher attack stat than Pult. However, Dondozo could be an easy switch to it, while Pult can U-turn out to be sure.
Espathra is unique, but if it is banned just because of Tera, then there must be a problem.
Annihilape would get replaced with Primeape. This sounds like a joke, but Primeape can boost its bulk with eviolite, and still has rage fist.

Volc still won't have multiscale and priority, so I fail to see how anything changes if Dragonite becomes banned. It might become meta, but I doubt it becomes broken.

Zard is still Zard. It won't be broken.

Chien-Pao is having debates of being broken without tera, so it's not going to make that big of a difference IMO.

As someone who messed around with primeape in UU, absoultely not. That thing is trash. It doesn't get stab rage fist, it's bulk is absolutely pitiful in comparison to annihlape, and its reliant on eviolite means it can't run leftovers, resto chesto, or my personal favorite, mirror herb.

252 SpA Espathra Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Primeape: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Espathra Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 212-252 (50 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And this is max investment, meaning that on the physical side, after boosts, Annihilape is significantly more bulky, while also having key immunites to fighting and normal
 
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banning individual mons can be an alternative, more smogon-ish, way to go that could result in a balanced meta.
Except not really, as it doesn't fix the meta. You're advocating throwing the baby out instead of the bathwater, and leaving terastallization free to ruin the metagame with the mass of guessing games and paranoia it enforces.

How is my argument a strawman? Pro ban players believe terra is too unpredictable and makes it hard to counter. They either want it to be outright banned or limited to one or show which mon has the terra. A literal meta where you know what everything is going to do. That's not strawman that's literally what pro ban players want. Less unpredictably and randomness. Do you know what a strawman is?
You're missing the point. The pro-ban side wants it gone because it's uncompetitive; no one likes being robbed of a win because of a mechanic that completely alters a mon's counterplay. No one wants tournament finals to come down to a mess of guessing games - something that tera's presence forces. Dynamax was really broken, but terastallization is not much better imho. If I win, I want it to be because I played better than my opponent. If I get my ass kicked, I want it to be becase my opponent outplayed me. Not because of a get-out-of-jail-free card the opponent pulled out of their ass when I was winning. FYI, being unpredictable isn't necessary for a ban. Look at Naganadel. Everyone knew what it was gonna do. Everyone knew it was likely gonna be NP/Draco/FB/Sludge Wave w/Drago Z. It still got hit with the banhammer.
 
You're missing the point. The pro-ban side wants it gone because it's uncompetitive; no one likes being robbed of a win because of a mechanic that completely alters a mon's counterplay. No one wants tournament finals to come down to a mess of guessing games - something that tera's presence forces.

Not because of a get-out-of-jail-free card the opponent pulled out of their ass when I was winning.
Tera, in general, isn't very much like items. But, in this specific case? This is a Focus Sash, or a Yache Berry, or an Assault Vest set on a mon that should be running support or setup moves.

Now, held items aren't required to be revealed, but if they were? They'd lose almost all of their surprise factor, and the only advantage gained would be the raw power gained from running something different than normal.

This is what revealed tera types would do. If a Pokémon is actually busted, even if you know what's coming, then maybe the issue is actually the mon itself. But there aren't that many mons it's true of, and, of those? It's not even a "strong pokemon" that's the biggest issue - it's Espathra!

And, honestly? If it turns out that you have to jettison Espathra to OUBL to keep Tera, I am more than happy to see that happen. Speed Boost / Stored Power isn't exactly the peak of competitive interest, anyway.
 
Re:espathra

+1 252+ SpA Espathra Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toedscruel: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SpA Espathra Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Dondozo: 214-253 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO


Toedscruel with no spd can switch in on espathra’s first calm mind and safely spore; Dondozo cab switch in and yawn with complete impunity.

I present these because without Shed Tail support, these become viable checks to Espathra, forcing it out before it’s big settup turns. With a free sub available, that becomes much harder, as espathra can get extra boosts to threaten to ohko Toedscruel with stored power, and if it needs to run substitute in it’s own movepool, it can’t run energy ball for dondozo.

I argue, therefore, that espathra is majorly a problem because of Shed Tail allowing it free settup turns and a resistance to statuses, where Terastalizing only gives it a (potentially) free settup turn and added damage vs dark types, which is notable but imo matters less than the protection to settup that shed tail affords, and I dont believe we can conclusively say Tera is the problem with espathra while Shed Tail is still in the evironment.
 
Except not really, as it doesn't fix the meta. You're advocating throwing the baby out instead of the bathwater, and leaving terastallization free to ruin the metagame with the mass of guessing games and paranoia it enforces.
See to many, tera is the baby and a few mons is the bathwater. This isn't an issue of one said failing to understand the foolproof data, its an issue of people having fundemental subjective differences in what they think is/isn't valuable to keep in a metagame.
 
Terastallize is a healthy mechanic that makes the game more fun and intense by adding another layer of strategic complexity to it. You have to think ahead of what type the opponent could Tera into for a clutch turn. In reality the options are limited because only a handful types make sense for a given pokemon (a defensive one wants to Tera into a type that covers its weaknesses, while an offensive one wants a type that strenghtens its attacks). The Tera mechanic also helps easying out bad matchups by giving the player at disadvantage a chance for a comeback. The Tera STAB boost sits at 1.3x which is reasonable, not hitting too hard to the point it could be considered broken. Unlike Dynamax, Tera doesn't give unreasonable advantages like doubling the HP and giving speed and attack / sp attack boosts, in a way that can really break the game. It's safe to say this gen GameFreak found the perfect mechanic that makes games more interesting without being overly broken or annoying!

My verdict is NO BAN
 
Toedscruel with no spd can switch in on espathra’s first calm mind and safely spore
Toedscruel is not in the OU viability ranking thread. Why talk about it here?
Tera Type Index: SV OU

:Amoonguss: Amoonguss Water, Fire, Fairy
:Annihilape: Annihilape Water, Fire, Fairy, Normal, Dark
:Azumarill: Azumarill Water
:Baxcalibur: Baxcalibur Fairy, Ice, Dragon
:Blissey: Blissey Fairy, Ghost
:Breloom: Breloom Fighting, Grass, Fire
:Chi-Yu: Chi-Yu Fire, Ghost, Grass
:Chien-Pao: Chien-Pao Ice, Ghost, Fighting, Dark
:Clodsire: Clodsire Water, Dark, Steel
:Corviknight: Corviknight Ground, Dark, Dragon, Water, Flying
:Cyclizar: Cyclizar Ghost, Steel
:Dondozo: Dondozo Fairy, Grass, Steel
:Dragapult: Dragapult Ghost, Dark
:Dragonite: Dragonite Normal, Steel, Fire
:Espathra: Espathra Fairy, Fighting
:Garchomp: Garchomp Steel, Ghost, Water
:Garganacl: Garganacl Water, Flying, Grass, Fairy, Ghost, Steel
:Gholdengo: Gholdengo Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Normal, Dark
:Glimmora: Glimmora Ghost, Steel, Grass, Fairy, Flying
:Great Tusk: Great Tusk Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Flying
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl Ghost, Poison, Steel
:Hatterene: Hatterene: Water, Flying, Steel
:Iron Hands: Iron Hands Electric, Fighting, Flying
:Iron Moth: Iron Moth Poison, Fire, Fairy, Grass, Flying
:Iron Treads: Iron Treads Ghost, Ground, Flying
:Iron Valiant: Iron Valiant Electric, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting, Poison, Dark
:Kingambit: Kingambit Dark, Flying, Ghost, Steel
:Meowscarada: Meowscarada Grass, Fairy, Dark
:Quaquaval: Quaquaval Water, Fighting
:Roaring Moon: Roaring Moon Steel, Dark, Flying
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash Steel, Water, Ghost
:Scizor: Scizor Steel, Fire, Electric, Flying
:Skeledirge: Skeledirge Fairy, Dark, Fire
:Slowking: Slowking Water
:Ting Lu: Ting-Lu Poison, Steel, Water, Ground, Fairy
:Torkoal: Torkoal Ghost, Flying, Fire, Steel
:Toxapex: Toxapex Water, Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar Steel, Ghost
:Volcarona: Volcarona Grass, Psychic, Bug
If you see the list of viable teras, some Pokémon have 5 or 6. You could not accurately work around it in team preview, and could turn a game around. Oh, and this is assuming the opponent will always Tera a mon at the first opportunity it comes in, which realistically never happens, causing another guessing game. Losing at either 1 of the guessing games could put you at a disadvantage
a defensive one wants to Tera into a type that covers its weaknesses, while an offensive one wants a type that strenghtens its attacks
I agree only with the first part. If you look at the list of viable Tera’s, offensive mons have different Tera’s to boost typing defensively. Even guessing the wrong stab Tera makes a difference.
 
I agree only with the first part. If you look at the list of viable Tera’s, offensive mons have different Tera’s to boost typing defensively. Even guessing the wrong stab Tera makes a difference.
Yeah. I personally classify there as 3 subsets of Tera:
- Offense (Double Stab, or Stab on a new Move)
- Bulky Offense (Buying Turns with a counter type to setup/get KO's that they don't share a move with)
- Defensive (Switching defensive types to better matchup against the opposing team)
 
For close to a decade I've been happy to sit on the sidelines and let the youth of today sort shit out but this topic is one I feel the need to come out of retirement for.

As some background: I was a regular on these forums in the B2W2 and XY/ORAS eras of Pokemon. I doubt there are many around who remember me but I was generally known as a level-headed bloke with a pretty good eye for this game. As I grew up I drifted apart from Pokemon but occasionally came back for a few rounds on Showdown. I got more invested towards the end of SS and have been having a lot of fun so far with SV. I don't particularly care to ladder for reqs but have reached top 500 on ladder on my regular account so I'd say I have a passable understanding of the SV meta.

Let me start off by saying that Tera is fun. I enjoy using the mechanic and it brings a fresh flavour to the game. This doesn't stop it from being broken as hell from a game balance perspective. More than any other mechanic/mon in the game, Tera really skews the ratio of known:unknown information in the game and messes with the idea that the player who's played the best over the course of the match is the one who should win.

This isn't to say that using Tera well doesn't require skill, moreso that Tera can often invalidate the rest of a match. Out of all the generations of competitive mons I've played, SV has the highest frequency of "unfair" turnabouts by far. This is primarily because of Terastallisation. Yes, there are times where the Tera is telegraphed. Yes, predicting the Tera and being rewarded feels good. But in reality, these occurrences are far fewer than the ones where one player has played better the entirety of the match and is in a game winning position but threw the game because they didn't correctly predict when the opponent was going to shift type. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of this and I rarely feel good in either scenario.

Note this isn't even scratching on the borderline ridiculous number of mons which Tera pushes from strong to suspect-worthy and the team-building constraints that creates. I suspect that's been discussed to death and I don't think it's super relevant anyway. The core issue is whether you prefer a meta where you are rewarded for playing better over the course of a game or a meta where games are decided by the outcome of a critical turn more frequently than in previous gens. Personally I prefer the former and I hope others feel the same.
 
I know that the problematic aspect of chien pao, especially in a tera metagame, has been brought up before, so i'm not gonna go into too much detail, but consider this: terra dark choice band adamant chien pao (with an effective 177 base attack) has an, against neutral targets, 140 bp priority move (sucker punch) coming off of an almost 750 attack stat, to lock down offense if played correctly, especially late game, whilst having two great stab moves (icicle crash/ice spinner and crunch) for nuking fat mons, barring dondozo (who, btw, is a shaky counter due to its unreliable recovery). And that's without considering ice shard (potentially terra ice, at that) and sacred sword (which ignores opposing stat changes, such as +2 garganacl after an iron defence). I know people are convinced chi yu is far and away the most broken mon in the tier, tera or not, but chien pao is not far behind and i'd like to bring this to the council's attention, for potential action right after the conclusion of the suspect test (especially if tera doesn't end up banned)
 

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Going to dump my thoughts on tera but I'm going to preface this post by saying I intend to vote Full Ban as my primary option. For some reason, this is enough to dissuade people from even considering my opinion on Tera as legitimate among certain crowds so this is your heads-up to stop reading. I'm going to recount my own experience from suspect laddering, 1800s, and tour games. With the lack of meaningful tour games to pull from outside of the most recent rounds of the No Johns tournament, I don't see any real reason to draw from anything other than my own experience with the mechanic. That said, experiences obviously vary so my own won't be the same as yours. In this post, I'm going to outline what I'm voting for and then explain my rationale in a two-question format.

This is how I'd personally deal with tera, not exactly sure how the second question will work in this test but I'm assuming it will have something to do with combining restrictions

Full Ban > Tera Captain > Tera Preview > Anything Else

Why I'm full ban rather than a restriction

My approach to tiering usually starts with asking myself "Does x make the better player win less", If the answer is yes then more often than not that I'll typically vote ban. In the case of Tera it was an "I don't really know". During the honeymoon phase of the metagame a little over a month ago I was having a blast with Tera but it was pretty evident that some form of restriction needed to be done, at this time I was perfectly on board with keeping it but with some restriction. Fast forward to now, I think removing it would give us the most competitive metagame while having the least amount of tiering action. I personally think in an ideal world we try to keep the number of suspects and quick bans we do to a minimum while acting on the broken aspects when necessary, and the fact of the matter is, outside of the china duo a lot of the top guys on the "chopping block" are pushed over the edge by Tera. Would pokemon like Dnite, Espathra, Garg, Ape, etc... be broken without Tera? The answer is we don't know, but, the ability to change your defensive and offensive profile into one more suitable for their game plan certainly is a notable problematic factor in all the guys I just listed. There is a reason why in the cases of Espathra, Garg, and Ape they change into better defensive types which is to minimize their counterplay options. You can obviously point out we can just ban all the brokens and re-suspect test them in the future if Tera is fully banned, since that's the reasonable response to this point I'm making. In that case, I don't think have considered the DLC season enough. In generation 8, while the tiering was considerably better than in past generations, we struggled to make a playable metagame for months because when we were just getting somewhere tiering wise we'd get dropped with a whole new batch of mons. A whole new lot of brokens were added which focused our attention elsewhere (while adding counterplay to some previous brokens). Tera has already proven that it can be the tipping point of certain mons and when even home drops we will probably have an entirely different meta that changes our priorities to the new brokens rather than retests. The thing with bans too is that there is always the next thing in the wing to take its place as a top threat, especially with newer metas. Valiant, Gambit, Hatterne, and to a lesser extent, Scizor are already annoying to deal with when they've Tera'd and they will probably only get better once we cut the top threats. What I'm saying is, the way we are approaching this can lead to us cutting a lot of pokemon which is less than ideal while in the event we do ban tera fully in the future, gives us a ton of retests to do without considering future bans as well. Which in all honesty, we do not have enough time for this given the DLC schedule. Four retests in particular is already an excessive amount. We could group mons together in a retest but that doesn't really give us the most accurate data. Even in the event we don't fully ban tera this still applies as we are going to get more counterplay but I digress. You can argue that I'm trying to jump through hoops to keep these pokemon in the metagame. Well, I can also switch that around and say we are jumping through a lot of hoops to keep the mechanic that breaks a good portion of pokemon around. Personally, I'm going to side with the option that gives us more playable pokemon and options in the builder.

While the first paragraph was solely about tiering, this one is going to be more about how Tera plays and why I consider it not particularly competitive. As I've already briefly mentioned, being able to change your offensive and defensive profile on a whim is incredible. Not just on the mons I previously listed but on just about everything in the metagame. There is very few pokemon that are bad at using Teraing. While in a vacuum, everything being a good abuser of the mechanic isn't a bad thing, the issue stems from the general lack of control the side that is not Teralizationing faces. This interaction isn't necessarily skillful and gives one side far more of an advantage. Sure the not teralizing side can "predict" the tera and play accordingly but there are also several other aspects that complicate this such as deducing what move your opponent is clicking as well the fact they can also just not tera which gives too much power to one person with the lack of skill involved. There's a lot comparison to Z-Moves in the power Tera has a singular turn and I've seen the idea that since we are okay with z-moves why not tera, but the thing is that is where the similarities stop. Z-Moves had a particular building limitation that let us adapt and build around it as most of the time the z-moves were placed on the best abuser on that particular team which the other player could use their own knowledge to figure out. This created a sort of "hierachy" of good z users that let us prep and play around the top guys while also giving us the option to run more creative sets at the expense of using it in a less effective manner. While there is obviously a top tier of tera users that you should prepare for, there's a few reasons why its a lot different than z-moves at a building level. Due to the general freedom Tera gives you in application, there's no real way to be ready for it. The example that I think is the most straightforward; Water Garg, Fairy Garg, and Rock Garg for the most part have different checks, while you can be prepared for all 3 of these on paper quite comfortably, the Garg player can still end up in an advantageous position since the way you play around each is different. This trails back to some of the different interactions I mentioned earlier and how much of an information overload tera can be sometimes. Sure you can be like "well that's garg for you", but garg isn't the only pokemon that has this sort of interaction, as I mentioned before a lot of the good abusers tend to change their counterplay to better achieve their gameplan. While Z-moves "sorta" had the issue it was less of a problem considering the general limitations and drawbacks Z-Moves had. As the age-old saying goes "You can't check everything" but with the ability to change your counterplay at will thats even more so right now. A lot of the examples I listed are mostly 1v1 scenarios, now consider the fact we play 6v6 and every pokemon can tera whenever, surely you can see where my problem lies. Just to boil this down, Tera as a mechanic offers too much control over the game to one side of the field just for clicking a button with its incredibly large amount of uses and interactions. While it is possible to play around, it doesn't change the fact that it can turn a losing position into a winning one despite the inherent lack of skillful playing for said position. Teralization (especially in its current state) acts too much as a crutch and a get-out-of-jail-free card that lowers the skill gap to the less-than-desirable degree.

Why I prefer Tera Captain to Preview

Now admittedly, posting a "ban tera pls" post is relatively unhelpful despite how much I feel this mechanic cannot be balanced or to have it in a balanced state we will have to do more than a simple single restriction which at that point we might as well just throw it out now because it's just going to cause a bunch of grief down the line. The fact is, a lot of people want to see if we can make this mechanic work because the amount of freedom it gives is interesting, despite how much I feel it's beyond the point of saving. There's a reason the test is structured the way it is. It seems this thread's favorite restriction is the Tera Preview option, mostly due to the fact VGC is currently doing it anyway. While I'm "fine" with that option, I think it doesn't really do much to affect the impact the initial turn of teralization can cause nor does it really bring the more broken users down a notch. Most experienced players already know the good tera types on OU Viable pokemon, while having the information is reassuring, you already were likely trying your best to position yourself in a while to play against those anyway. Rarely are you actually being caught by something random thats not actually meta. I feel the option of having only a singular pokemon that can teralization on any given team does a far better job bringing the mechanic down a notch. Personally, I'm indifferent to knowing who the abuser is but I do think there's some fun in not knowing who the single abuser is but just some food for thought. First off, this limits the options teralization can give you by limiting it to one member of the team which removes the problem of any pokemon having a get-out-of-jail-free card at any time, forcing both sides to play more intelligently with their Tera Captain. Additionally, by limiting it to a singular pokemon naturally, some pokemon are just going to be better at Teralizing which makes building against Tera easier since people aren't going to want to waste their captain on something less than ideal unless they are running something more on the creative side. This puts teralizing a little more in line with z-moves and what made them playable. This might confuse you why I think this nerfs some of the more broken abusers a bit. My rationale mostly comes from the fact you cannot stack all these guys on a team and expect them to be as effective. For example, you load into a game vs a garg and ape, since they are limited to one tera user that means one of them likely cannot tera (or you will know who can). This reduces the number of outcomes that can happen which balances out the control aspect I mentioned before a tad. Even if its not the perfect solution it is definitely fairer than it is in its current state. I also like the fact that this option encourages more intuitive building rather than slapping on brokens. Like I already mentioned, this makes Tera more similar to Z-Moves and in line with the general framework of why they ended up staying in SM. While this isn't perfect and some people might not like this as a solution as changing your typing is effectively better than a one-time nuke, it gives Tera some flaws that we know were effective in balancing in the past. There are obviously downsides to both options as well but I think I like what this one brings to the table a bit more for our meta when compared to preview. For the record though, if vgc continues to do the open-sheet stuff, I don't see why we wouldn't just add it to our metagames. I think the extent of "restriction" we can get away with is Tera Captain + Preview before we just give in to the full ban.

I do hope we can just outright ban Tera and move forward as I don't really see this mechanic being balanced even after restrictions but hopefully my two cents on the restrictions add something of value to future conversation. I encourage people at least take all information they consume through this thread, youtube and their own experiences to form their own opinion rather than what they are told is the right vote.
 
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I know that the problematic aspect of chien pao, especially in a tera metagame, has been brought up before, so i'm not gonna go into too much detail, but consider this: terra dark choice band adamant chien pao (with an effective 177 base attack) has an, against neutral targets, 140 bp priority move (sucker punch) coming off of an almost 750 attack stat, to lock down offense if played correctly, especially late game, whilst having two great stab moves (icicle crash/ice spinner and crunch) for nuking fat mons, barring dondozo (who, btw, is a shaky counter due to its unreliable recovery). And that's without considering ice shard (potentially terra ice, at that) and sacred sword (which ignores opposing stat changes, such as +2 garganacl after an iron defence). I know people are convinced chi yu is far and away the most broken mon in the tier, tera or not, but chien pao is not far behind and i'd like to bring this to the council's attention, for potential action right after the conclusion of the suspect test (especially if tera doesn't end up banned)
fwiw it can be considered either a 140 BP sucker punch OR a 177 base attack, not both at the same time..
 
We have to talk about Espathra, everyone’s favourite bird.

There has been a big battlefield about Espathra, about whether is it broken ONLY with Tera, or is all-around broken/bad. Espathra has a huge difference from Naganadel, in that it requires a much larger set-up chain. You have to lead with grimmsnarl and set up double screens,parting shot into Cyclizar when the opponent sends in a weak enough mon, send tail to Espathra. Naganadel appreciates but doesn’t need screens. You only need a free turn of set-up, while Espathra has to chain together multiple boosts to sweep an average team.

You can say Espathra can’t sweep without shed tail, but the same can be said for Tera


Espathra is a Stored Power sweeper, and Stored Power sweepers MUST have a way around dark types. While Espathra learns dazzling gleam, it must Tera for several breaking points that allow it to sweep. The post I quoted directly below explains this
If the implication here is that espathra is strong to begin with and tera just makes it a bit better, I disagree. Espathra is MID without tera and a top tier threat with it. The key here is that tera allows it to break dark types, letting it flex the obscene stored power+speed boost combo. Without tera, this is how it is faring vs common dark types using the current max defense set:

+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 133-157 (39 - 46%)
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 99-117 (39.4 - 46.6%)
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam affected by Vessel of Ruin vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 146-172 (28.4 - 33.4%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 248-292 (82.3 - 97%)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meowscarada: 234-276 (79.8 - 94.1%)

Let's be generous and say espathra goes offensive to salvage its dazzling gleam if tera is banned:

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 179-212 (48.3 - 57.2%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Espathra Dazzling Gleam affected by Vessel of Ruin vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 198-234 (38.5 - 45.5%) (and eq now 2hkos)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 134-159 (53.3 - 63.3%)
It kills chien pao and meowscarada cleanly, but must be wary of sucker punch.

Needless to say, this is a very limp performance at breaking through dark types. It becomes much more matchup dependent without tera, and thus it's a great example of a mon that is top tier only because of tera. Stored power mons that can't break through dark types on their own tend to be pretty mid, look no further than demon mew last gen.
Now about it being banworthy. While Espathra needs a lot of set-up, if the Espathra user wins the Tera Guessing game, they would almost always sweep the entire enemy team.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
fwiw it can be considered either a 140 BP sucker punch OR a 177 base attack, not both at the same time..
I dunno, every time I try to switch into Chien-Pao it certainly feels like it’s both

(I only processed that it was Sucker Punch after I already made the joke so ignore the fact that you can switch in on Sucker Punch for free)
 
A lot of arguments in this thread against Tera revolve around "if they did not have Tera here i'd win, therefore its uncompetitive". You can use this line of argumentation to ban almost anything, "I managed to set up, but my opponent had an scarf on a weird pokemon so i lost because i didn't guess that".

Tera is definitely a strong mechanic and it can shift a game instantly. I do not think its anywhere near Dynamax level of absurdity, where any possible counterplay like protect was removed.

I truly think Dynamax had to go to have a playable meta, but i also think it pushed us into the borderline of pet mod territory. Looking back i actually think Dynamax ban was a mistake, not because it was balanced or good, but because it warped the general policy of banning abusers instead of whats being abused.

Policy in general has shifted from finding a way to fit broken things in a competitive metagame, like sleep clause and drizzle+ss, to molding the game as people see fit.
The minimal intervention approach of old seems completely lost, and the ever increasing list of complex bans is taking its toll.
No ban, no restriction. Lets go back to banning abusers instead of mechanics, as it has alway been done with megas and Z moves.
 
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Pro-Tera’s arguments have been boiled down to "Ban mons instead of Tera”.

I can name multiple mons that are broken due to Tera alone. Dragonite, Espathra, Dragapult, maybe even Garchomp. Then there is Garganacl, Valiant, Roaring Moon and so on. Listen, every time we ban one of these mons, a niche gets removed, and may not be replaced, and a usable, unique, but not overbearing mon gets banned. They have at least 1 unique niche. That’s why they are in OU in the first place. And the ultimate culprit would be Tera anyways.

You want options to be limited, the selection of Pokémon and roles be less diverse, or weaker. It’s killing the rats of the disease instead of curing the disease itself.
 
You want options to be limited, the selection of Pokémon and roles be less diverse, or weaker. It’s killing the rats of the disease instead of curing the disease itself.
Except the same point can be said in the opposite point? You're suggesting throwing out an entire mechanic because of a few broken mons. You aren't advocating for a cure to a disease, you advocate for an amputation for a treatable illness. By banning the gimmick, you sacrifice an increase in potential for a variety of mons and the game as a whole, Oricorio in UU has an fascinating role due to the way revelation dance interacts with tera, Tera corv can escape magnet pull. Mons like dirge and garganacl gain increased application in a tier Inhabited by a single fairy. I use tera fire to give some mons a burn immunity. For every mon that becomes broken with tera, there's multiple that can fill in niches as needed.
 
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