Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

[Freeroamer]

OK I wanted to ladder extensively so I could give an informed opinion on the suspects, and now I feel I'm at the stage where I can talk about them.

Mega Steelix: The strange thing about Steelix is that if you consider it to be broken, it's not because it has one set which sweeps the metagame or one that walls everything, it's just the way that it literally requires 0 support to be able to put in huge amounts of work vs every playstyle. Offense will always have at least 2 pokemon walled by it, such a defensive threat that it is, and will loathe it's ability to consistently set up rocks wearing them down, especially in conjunction with things like LO recoil and it's powerful attacks. Balance teams again will have pokemon unable to touch it or forced out by it, allowing it to consistently set up hazards against them and wear them down via powerful attacks or by phazing them. It could even threaten a sweep via the Rock Polish set. It's the same story with stall, they simply can't stop it coming in on pokemon that can't touch it, setting rocks and phazing the team around. It's just far too easy to put a Steelix on your team at 0 cost other than your mega slot and get massive reward from it. Ban

Heliolisk: I used Heliolisk on all the teams I played with on the suspect, because it's just so damn easy to use. Against any team without a SpDef Torterra or similar, it's ability to gain momentum instantly is just blindingly obvious, your team might have a solid answer in the shape of a Gourgeist btu suddenly that answer doesn't look so solid when Helio pivots out into the likes of Typhlosion or Mega Camerupt, instantly putting you on the front foot at little cost. However it does have it's flaws, in that no matter what set you use, it gets worn down fairly quickly due to it's frailty and susceptibility to all forms of entry hazards. It also isn't overwhelmingly powerful, there are quite a few pokemon that can live a neutral STAB and reply back even harder, meaning it's forced to spam Volt Switch until the opposing team is truly worn down. However this said, I think it's just far too centralising in the tier, in that it mandates you to have 2 decent checks to it in order to not get ripped apart by it, and the fact that these checks often don't have recovery only makes them easier to wear down. Ban

 

[Evan.]

ok now that i have reqs im gonna post about what I think about the meta right now

helio: ok im gonna start with the much easier decision and that is that heliolisk is hella broken in the current metagame. We basically have a mon that has the same SpAtk stat as powerhouses like typhlosion and pyroar, coverage that hits the entire tier for neutral damage, the ability to pivot out of it's checks with a practically unblockable volt-switch, and to top it off it's also one of the fastest mons in the entire metagame with a blazing 109 speed that makes it have even fewer checks than it should. If this doesn't qualify as a broken mon then idk what does, please vote ban heliolisk.

mlix: ah mlix, this mon has been an extremely controversial topic as of late and i have a pretty weird opinion about it. First off, i just wanna say that I do not think that mega steelix is a broken mon in the true sense of the word. I also agree with everything that Cherub Agent said in his post about mlix and how the drops make it a much more adaptable mon. The team I used to get reqs had an mlix on it and I played against it multiple times. Never once was I really concerned about how the opposing mega steelix could beat my team, as I felt my team had adapted to it to take it on, without a dedicated counter like Mantine or Torterra. All this being said, my ladder journey did reveal something very important to me: how boring and not fun it was to play this tier. When you start seeing the same 5 mons every other game, you see how a mon is potentially skewing the tier into a boring state.

So basically what I'm saying is that even though whole-heartedly believe that mega-steelix is nowhere near broken in the tier and under normal circumstances I would vote no-ban, I'm going to be a selfish little shit and vote ban because I feel like a meta without mega steelix would be much more playable and better in general.

 

[Sae]

Alright I finished getting my req's and here are some of my thoughts:

Mega Steelix: Well I originally started my laddering journey with a Ferroseed and Ferroseed put in a lot of work against teams revolving around both Megalix and Helio, but especially the former. Usually I could just set up a Leech Seed and then proceed to set up spikes or watch as the Typhlosion came in and then I could scout out what it would lock itself into. However, Xatu basically ruined this entire plan and basically carved out the path for most people using the RMT to seize initiative. It hit hard and I was worried about switching, but I managed to pull through most of the time. It essentially got free damage on most mons which was annoying since it tanks very well. Still even though it could be played around, it still overcentralized the meta in a very negative way. The meta used to be very enjoyable and very diverse, but this mon just restricted teambuilding way too much. The NU metagame is better off w/o this behemoth tbh. Ban

Heliolisk: Its speed, special attack, ability, and coverage put it way above the NU limit of what could handle it. Volt Switch grabbed momentum so easily, and it's not like the person using it had to really predict with it since if they sent in something like Quagsire or Seismitoad then you could just Grass Knot it next turn. Specially defensive pokes like Uxie and Musharna could deal with it, but they were so easy to overcome when you had essentially a free Volt Switch into your check for them. Also, people were forced to whittle away their Mega Camerupt/Typhlosion check (namely Hariyama) by letting it get a Volt Switch and just send in something to scare it out. Even Wish/Healing Wish passing was a chore because you had to time when to actually do so since most of them got outsped by the fast paced mons used in conjunction with Heliolisk. That and Heliolisk was always such a good deterrent during the match that I found myself quickly cornered even while bringing the appropriate response. This thing has to go. Ban.

 

[Blader96]

I am voting for a ban on heliolisk as it has great speed and special attack coupled with great coverage to check most of the usual checks to usual electric types. His checks has to be run on most teams as it is prevalent in the metagame, making it a centralizing force. On mons tat it cannot check it can just volt switch out, dealing chip dmg and going out into a counter for the said counter.
On the issue of steelixite, I would vote for a no ban as I feel tat he can be checked rather easily. Bulky special water types such as seismitoad shld be able to wear him down quite easily. As steelix does not have reliable recovery other than rest, he would suffer from the rest talk syndrome like aggron if he wants to outlast his checks.
I would be voting ban for heliolisk and no ban for steelixite

 

[Raseri]

Just to clarify something.

NU Reqs need to be posted in the Alt Identification thread by 11:59PM Est on Feb 26th. This means that you have the day of the 26th as well to get reqs

 

[TehDoomminime]

I'm very happy with but I will be sad to the turtle go, but mega lix was a pain.

 

[Cherub Agent]

the reptiles without shells are lizards, man

 

[eat_a_peach]

In my experience, Mega Steelix is really centralizing. You see stuff like Fire Blast Tauros/Mawile to counter it, although I guess that covers Ferroseed as well. He takes hits like nothing from anything physical and the Heavy Slam/EQ combo 2HKOs almost everything in my experience. I'd say it's the best mega in the tier easily.

As for Heliolisk, the Volt Switch / great coverage thing is tough and gains momentum, but it's easily outsped by weather mons/scarf, not that powerful if it runs scarf itself, predictable, and very frail. There are lots of special walls in NU, and if you go offensive, you probably have something faster than it. In my experience it just isn't THAT hard to switch into, although I ran Cradily.

 

[ryan]

Heliolisk doesn't need Scarf because about three viable Pokemon naturally outspeed it, and Choice Scarf users are pretty uncommon right now because Steelix makes it impossible to lock into almost any move but U-turn, and Hariyama makes it difficult to lock into Fire-type attacks. Weather Pokemon are mostly ass, and few on rain can actually kill it because it has decent special bulk and is immune to Water. "Lots of special walls" don't matter because only Ground-types are blocking Volt Switch, and it beats all of them except for the mediocre SpDef Torterra. Even most special walls still get 3HKO'd, so you can just Volt Switch on them when they first come in and then 2HKO the next time. In you specific example of Cradily, Heliolisk can Volt Switch into a Hariyama or a Sawk, and now you've lost momentum because Cradily isn't threatening enough to do anything back.

You can build you team in a way that Heliolisk doesn't demolish it, but it is really difficult to do so. I'm running an offensive team with two Pokemon that outspeed Heliolisk, my own Heliolisk, Mega Steelix, and Assault Vest Magmortar. The only Pokemon that don't outspeed it can take a hit from it, so it's not that huge of a problem. But that team is very offensive. If I want to run balance, my defensive cores get ripped apart by Heliolisk because whatever I have to beat it gets destroyed by something else. The only exception is Gourgeist-Small / Hariyama / Mega Steelix because most of the things that can outwardly threaten Gourgeist are slower and get burned by Will-O-Wisp or are covered well by Hariyama and Mega Steelix, but even that team isn't fool-proof, especially because it can get torn apart by other Pokemon that aren't Heliolisk.

On the issue of steelixite, I would vote for a no ban as I feel tat he can be checked rather easily. Bulky special water types such as seismitoad shld be able to wear him down quite easily. As steelix does not have reliable recovery other than rest, he would suffer from the rest talk syndrome like aggron if he wants to outlast his checks.

Steelix doesn't need recovery because it checks the things it beats well enough to switch into them multiple times throughout the battle, even without Leftovers. Bulky Water-types can't wear it down easily because few have recovery, and it can hit them on the switch and then switch out itself. Like look at this shit

252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 151-178 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

One of the bulkiest Water-types in the tier gets casually 3HKO'd by a neutral unboosted attack from this thing. The only set that should be running RestTalk is Curse, which can easily beat bulky Water-types with Toxic Spikes support.

 

[Orphic]

Okay so I'm kinda making a return with this suspect test so it only seems right that after laddering like 100 battles on this ladder that I post my findings, but I'll do my best to not overlap too much on what others have said for the sake of making this post concise and relevant.

I'll start with Mega Steelix.
Overcentralizing? Yes. I see this guy on majority of teams because there is no downside to using it and it requires no support to carry out its aims - walling, hazards and hard hits, all of which it can do with simply it's own typing and defensive ability. With no atk investment, heavy slam still 2hkos most of the unresisted tier with some that resist it still being demolished like heliolisk. With practically non-existant stealth rock weakness and a bug resistance and electric immunity plus a toxic immunity, a lack of recovery isn't a problem as wearing this thing down simply isn't a viable option like with other walls that lack recovery such as Seismitoad and Regirock. Therefore Mega-Steelix can obliterate entire teams by wearing them down with its moves much faster than they can to him. To those that use its lack of recovery as an argument not to ban, just think about how long you spend each battle trying to play around this thing and realise how it has synergy with almost everything due to its typing and defensive capabilities.

I hope that didn't overlap too much, now onto heliolisk:
The discovery of this thing has been a journey for me. At first I didn't like it's typing and how easily it would be worn down by its life orb, then I slowly started to realise just how little these things mattered when you look at the destruction it leaves behind, almost like zangoose (before Steelix, RIP normal spam. Heliolisk simply has no opportunity cost, if it can't hit the thing in front of it, chances are it can volt switch out of it or KO it:
Seismitoad grass knot
Golurk surf or grass knot
Quagsire grass knot
Mega Steelix surf
Hariyama volt switch
Mismagius volt switch
And the list really does go on, and the more this happens throughout the game, the easier it becomes for these pivots to turn into Kos, and what normally would be a hyper voice 2hko becomes a game winning move. And, like with Mega Steelix, there's no downside to using it as it requires minimal team support to pull all this off.

Typed this on my phone so might not all make sense but if it wasn't clear I think both of these are Overcentralizing and bad for the meta, ban both!
Orphic~

 

[Flamedood]

I argued a few pages back to not ban Heliosk but after laddering a bit more I've changed my opinion- the thing for me that pushes heliosk over the edge is Xatu- the pressure it places on hazard setters makes it so much harder to wear Heliosk down, as well as maintaining momentum through u turn.

Yes heliosk is frail, and I had no problems whittling it away when I could actually get hazards up, but in this current metagame, particularly paired with xatu its just too hard to take out of the match

 

[Blader96]

Steelix doesn't need recovery because it checks the things it beats well enough to switch into them multiple times throughout the battle, even without Leftovers. Bulky Water-types can't wear it down easily because few have recovery, and it can hit them on the switch and then switch out itself. Like look at this shit

252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 151-178 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

One of the bulkiest Water-types in the tier gets casually 3HKO'd by a neutral unboosted attack from this thing. The only set that should be running RestTalk is Curse, which can easily beat bulky Water-types with Toxic Spikes support.

Hollywood wat do u mean by EQ is unboosted on steelix? It has stab. A no spa atk invested seismitoad would 2hko a 252 hp/252+ atk steelix with scald, meaning tat seismitoad can come in on the switch in and kill steelix before it kills him.

 

[atomicllamas]

Hollywood wat do u mean by EQ is unboosted on steelix? It has stab. A no spa atk invested seismitoad would 2hko a 252 hp/252+ atk steelix with scald, meaning tat seismitoad can come in on the switch in and kill steelix before it kills him.

He means unboosted, as in it has no boost in its attack stat (+0). And while it's true 252+ SpA toad 2HKOs mega lix, it's 2HKOed in return. Hollywood is saying that it is ridiculous how much damage this is doing to an extremely bulky water-type, something that should easily deal with it.

Hollywood's point is that its few counters are super easy to wear down because they have no recovery outside of leftovers, and take a shit ton from Mega Lix's STABs.

 

[NotNova]

Another point is that physdef Seismitoad is an easy switch for Mantine- one of the most common MSteelix partners, which drives home the point of how easy it is to defensively synergize with Mega Steelix. Mantine can then Defog any hazads, while it takes very little from any of Seismitoad's moves, so Seismitoad's only option is to Toxic or use Knock Off to get rid of its Lefties while it gets further worn down by Air Slash or Mantine's own Toxic. It's simply a losing situation for Seismitoad: it takes a ton from MSteelix's move and then gets switched in on by Mega Steelix's partners. I could have listed Virizion in the same vein, which could setup for a win if the rest of the opponent's team has been sufficiently worn down.

Giving Mega Steelix any sort of switch-in is incredibly dangerous because of its sheer power and incredible two-move coverage in Heavy Slam and Earthquake- which as many have previously mentioned, hits ridiculously hard for an unboosted (no LO or setup move) attack. Defensive answers to Mega Steelix (which aren't so common) will have a proper switch-in on a decently built Mega Steelix team. The only option is to keep offensive pressure on the opponent so they just cannot get a Mega Steelix switch-in, which means you can't afford to run mons that were previously staples such as Zangoose or Kangaskhan- proof enough that it's overcentralizing and unhealthy for the metagame.

Simply put, it's not enough to run just one or even two Mega Steelix answers: your whole team must account for the fact that it exists, because you simply cannot afford to give it an opportunity to switch in- limiting your teambuilding to a very debilitating and unhealthy degree. This is why I'll personally vote to have it banned from the tier- it's been a long time due.

I'll give my thoughts on Heliolisk once I properly decide how I feel about it, as well.

 

[PISTOLERO]

I honestly think that Heliolisk is not a problem in NU. The way it plays with Life Orb means that alongside hazards it does not actually get that many free shots at the opponent's team. It is also not hard to force out as despite its wide coverage it will fail to OHKO almost everything that isn't weak to Electric, and is easy to OHKO back, especially on the physical side. Many of the people who advocate its ban seem to me to have a very large double standard, as they complain that "the viable checks to Heliolisk can be worn down over the course of a match, allowing Heliolisk to break them later on", but I'm pretty sure that that is how to win competitive Pokemon games, and is what every offensive Pokemon aims to do... it is also not easy to take advantage of Dry Skin as Heliolisk is so frail that one misprediction will most likely cost it its life. Personally I see it as a very good offensive Pokemon that can be reasonably versatile and act as an offensive pivot, and this seems like a useful role in NU. Likewise, both pro- and anti-ban sides using player prediction as an argument for banning / keeping Heliolisk is stupid, as it can simply be infinitely argued that both sides have to predict etc - it would be better to focus on how Heliolisk can use Volt Switch alongside Surf and / or Grass Knot to gain momentum while simultaneously threatening the Ground-types that can block Volt Switch.

Mega Steelix is not so much completely broken as it is incredibly boring to play against. There are several reasonably good checks - with physically defensive Seismitoad, I did not lose matches due to Mega Steelix coming in and using Earthquake / Heavy Slam - matches against Mega Steelix were lost because it is so easy to use it to force the opponent into making moves and switches, then taking advantage of them with teammates like Toxic Mantine or Virizion. The way it can come in on things like Kangaskhan's Earthquake with impunity, as well as being almost impossible to OHKO when running Special Defense investment (which seemed to be pretty much the only spread), makes for very frustrating matches. It is hard to use an offensive team properly, as conventional revenge killing of something such as Heliolisk with Kangaskhan's Fake Out is impossible when Mega Steelix can come into Fake Out for free. Predicting Mega Steelix's switchin and Earthquaking gives you no real reward either due to it not even doing 30% damage. This leads to awful double switches that, while early-game do not cost you too much, can easily be taken advantage of mid- to late-game. It is impossible to revenge kill anything consistently with Choiced users either, as it is again all too easy to switch to Mega Steelix on Mesprit's Zen Headbutt / Scyther's Aerial Ace / etc, again punishing the opponent if they lock themselves into anything but U-Turn. Toxic on Mega Steelix just serves to make things worse, as you can catch Seismitoad or Mantine with it once and cripple them for the rest of the match.

 

[Deej Dy]

After Laddering I'm def in favor of banning Helio, one overlooked fact is its revenge killing on subs with its hyper voice. My god that was annoying as a sub Chatot user, or any sub user in general. All the reasons marked above, its volt switch/water absorb/w.e I agree with and I don't want to get redundant. I feel it isn't healthy for the meta and the near 100% votes of ban against that show it.

No comment on Megalix, I could sway either way.

 

[Lord Alphose]

My god that was annoying as a sub Chatot user

lol, claiming Heliolisk is annoying while you used Sub + Chatter Chatot. You deserve everything that you were put through :P

 

[Aladyyn]

Honestly I prefer facing Chatot to facing Helio...

 

[Water Drone]

Alright, I got reqs a while back and I have a moment, so I think I'll put my thoughts out there.

Personally, I really liked using Heliolisk. It is really good in this tier, with great stabs, coverage, speed, and an incredible ability. Honestly I would say no ban solely on the fact that I liked using it so much, but I have to admit this thing has barely any switchins. I built a team right off the bat and used it all the way for reqs, and my best helio check was SpD Vileplume. From what I can tell, that is a pretty obscure set. Something like heliolisk with such amazing coverage, along with muh mentum with volt switch, is insanely hard to stop. So even though I really liked using it myself, I think Heliolisk is incredibly hard to support keeping in the tier, given its obvious broken qualities. At with that,I will probably be voting ban. Feel free to disagree and/or discuss.

I'll probably post my thoughts on Mega Steelix some time later.

 

[Yagura]

Got the reqs few days ago and it's time to post my thoughts I guess:

First of all, I'll talk about Helioptile which I think is broken and has an unhealthy presence in the tier, yes I understand the arguments that say that it's too frail (which doesn't even matter to be honest, like you're not using it for the bulk but for its offensive abilities ?_?) but seriously with its solid offensive STAB attacks, nice Special Attack and Speed, great coverage moves such as Surf and Grass Knot that can be used for Ground-types that are immune to Volt Switch, there is also Dark Pulse for Gourgeist, Focus Blast for Cradily and Ferroseed, and these moves seriously let it hit most of the Pokémon in the tier for super effective damage and it also has a nice ability in Dry Skin, but what's problematic about Helioptile isn't just that but it also has Volt Switch which allows its user to gain the momentum quite easily unless the opponent goes for a Ground-type Pokémon which you can be easily predict and go for either Surf or Grass Knot for Seismitoad, this allows a Pokémon that can deal with the potential Helio check that is coming and go for something that can force it out, a great example is like when you got for Typhlosion when the opponent went for Vileplume to "tank" Helio. All this make Helioptile have an unhealthy presence in NU and I'm pretty sure the tier will be quite better with it banned and make some Volt Switch Pokémon that are outclassed by it (give Raichu love) shine again with it leaving.

Secondly there is Mega Steelix, which isn't that broken to be honest but it's just too good too to the extent that you can seriously slap it in every team playstyle you want, you can like use it in HO for its ability to set rocks and stallish teams too thanks to its sky high 230 Defense stat which lets it live even super effective attacks from powerful Pokémon such as Hariyama's Close Combat (I can post some calcs but a lot of people have already posted a lot of them and I think it's enough). But the problem about Mega Steelix isn't just its bulk as the regular Steelix is bulky too but it doesn't have Mega Steelix' high 125 Attack stat accompanied by its nice STABs in Earthquake and Heavy Slam, you can also run Curse MSteelix which may seem to be gimmicky but is quite solid and can be hard to break through if you let it set up. So yea, MSteelix' high Defense and Attack makes it quite hard to deal with and can be overcentralizing the tier too, so I'm sure NU will be better with it banned too.

 

[Kurona]

Sorry to interrupt all this shit, but the Johto HA Starters including Sheer Force Gator were released early literally right now. I don't know if this has been programmed into Showdown yet but there you go.

 

[Bowtie Addo]

Sheer Force Feraligatr HYPE
Flash Fire Typhlosion HYPE
Leaf Guard Meg- lol just kidding

 

[Kurona]

Also, they are incorporated into Showdown already apparently.

 

[Firebird101]

Yep, tested Gator in OU and it can sweep quite handsomely o3o Probably needs to be suspect tested if not outright quickbanned here in NU ^^

 

[blinkie]

Typhlosion is now the best Typhlosion check...