Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 6 - Tag, You're It

[Highlord]

Stag users are just more potent in their target list, threat level, overall effectiveness, toxicity.

You missed my point. Gothitelle is not better than the other trappers because of Shadow Tag; rather, it is because it has better stats and support moves that work well with its ability. Saying Shadow Tag is specifically the problem is wrong because Arena Trap more or less does the same thing. For example, if Dugtrio had Shadow Tag, it would still be bad; likewise if Gothitelle had Arena Trap, it would still be good. I think for sure the problem lies elsewhere considering trapping is not universally problematic.

 

[Lacus Clyne]

Not gonna talk about Wobbuffet as I have simply no knowledge regarding it but I wanted to reply about Gothitelle being the same with Arena Trap over Shadow Tag. Yes that might be right if it comes down to just trapping + removing but in reality the ability can also be used defensively. The most common example would be to use it as a guaranteed fooder as your opponent can‘t switch out at all without using some kind of momentum move and if you combine that with a target that has already been statused you pretty much maximize the potential of the trap. With Shadow Tag this applies to every Pokémon unlike Arena Trap. Lets not forget about Trick Gothitelle that could also trap/cripple support Ho-Oh (I have yet to see one offensive Ho-Oh team that has no severe drawback). There are obviously some more flying type Pokémon but they are not really worth mentioning because the current meta only spams Yveltal or Ho-Oh anyways. What I am basically trying to say is that Shadow Tag is truly the root of the problem if it comes down to just Gothitelle.

 

[Ortheore]

Idk I think if all the users of Arena Trap weren't extremely flawed to the point of unviability it would be almost as much of a problem as STag, and would potentially be deserving of a ban. However, that isn't the case, so there's not really much point discussing Arena Trap, and it shouldn't really detract from the fact that Shadow Tag is fundamentally broken

 

[Garrett]

Needless to say, I don't really buy the argument that anything half-decent with STAG is automatically bad for the metagame.

Welcome to the Ubers tier! You're right here, the issue is however that Gothitelle is exceptionally good with STAG. It honestly traps better than Gen 7 MGar which lacked the bulk and specific moveset to trap a breadth of defensive mons.

There's also been some discussion about Wobb on this thread. I'll just put out my 2 cents on Wobb: This mon has been unchanged since Gen 3, and has not been unhealthy for any metagame due to various flaws it has. Until Wobb causes problems and gains significant non-zero tour usage, I have no reason to believe Wobb is unhealthy for the Ubers metagame, as it has not been a problem for the last 5 generations.

Do not ban STAG from Ubers. If Goth gaining Charm and Cosmic Power makes Ubers unenjoyable, ban Goth, and ban Gothorita if you have to, but do not ban Shadow Tag.

I sympathize with losing based Wobb but it's not on the table as an option, because the council... says so. I want Goth banned, so unfortunately that's what we lose as trapping abilities are an edge case in complex bans.

 

[LBN]

Okay, so if I'm reading this correctly, you are saying that any half-decent mon with STag/Arena Trap is banworthy, and the only reason that Dugtrio isn't a problem is because it's absolute dogshit, correct? Let's examine this argument.

Do the following thought experiment. Imagine we created a mon with sky-high special attack--say, base 170--and gave it an exceptional speed tier--say, base 130, enough to outspeed Arceus himself. Then, we give this mon a pair of powerful STABS that hit the entire metagame neutrally bar Ttar, as well as a defensive typing with multiple resistances and immunities. Then, just for fun, we give this mon an amazing array of coverage moves, to hit basically whatever it wants with SE coverage: Thunder, Energy ball, Icy wind, Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Focus Blast. In addition, we'll give this mon an amazing array of utility moves--say, will-o-wisp, Toxic, Substitute, Disable, Taunt, and Perish Song. Oh, and just for fun, we'll also give it Destiny Bond so it can trade 1v1 vs anything it can't straight up KO.

Oh, we'll give this mon Shadow Tag, and put it right in the middle of the gen7 metagame just to give it access to Hidden Power as well. Surely this mon must be absolutely awful for the metagame and sent to AG ASAP?

Oh wait, we don't have to do a theorymon about this because this mon already exists. It's called Mega Gengar, and gen7 Ubers thrived with Mega Gengar at the helm.

Needless to say, I don't really buy the argument that anything half-decent with STAG is automatically bad for the metagame.

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There's also been some discussion about Wobb on this thread. I'll just put out my 2 cents on Wobb: This mon has been unchanged since Gen 3, and has not been unhealthy for any metagame due to various flaws it has. Until Wobb causes problems and gains significant non-zero tour usage, I have no reason to believe Wobb is unhealthy for the Ubers metagame, as it has not been a problem for the last 5 generations.

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Let's compare Shadow Tag to an ability that has already been banned: Moody. Moody is broken on literally anything that gets it--even the mighty Arceus trembles in front of Bidoof. Any moody user--even those in LC--has the ability to spam sub and protect to get boosts, and with a little luck it's basically game over. Needless to say, Shadow tag does not meet this threshold. It's only potentially problematic on the Goth evolutionary line, and it has been proven to be fine on Wobb for multiple generations, and wasn't even a problem on Mega Gengar.

Do not ban STAG from Ubers. If Goth gaining Charm and Cosmic Power makes Ubers unenjoyable, ban Goth, and ban Gothorita if you have to, but do not ban Shadow Tag.

i'm getting tired of writing essays... ok here we go again....

Point 1: It's been said before and it'll be said again and again, just because something was not broken the previous generation, doesn't mean it can't be broken now. There are easily over hundreds of times where a mon/ability/item became problematic for a tier over a gen shift when it wasn't broken before. A complete change in surroundings, options, and potential buffs or nerfs to yourself or those around it can change how broken something can be. We dont have arceus, primals/megas, we have new threats, boots, and just a COMPLETELY different type of meta. Gen 6 and 7 are completely irrelevant here. We are suspecting GENERATION 8, SWORD SHIELD UBERS SHADOW TAG. Not gen 7, not gen 6, gen 8. Previous suspects don't fcking matter here.


Point 2: Speaking of completely irrelevant, Mega gengar does not exist in this gen and never has existed in this gen, i know its the 2nd prime stag abuser and blah blah but it doesn't even exist bro. When it does exist or if it comes back it'll have Encore and nasty plot and once again i dont need to explain how that'll be beyond broken.

Point 3: If you actually read the very first post on this thread, you'd have seen that ice clearly said and I QUOTE " Examining only Shadow Tag on Gothitelle and Gothorita is not on the table, posts arguing for it will be deleted." So i'm fairly sure you just didn't read the thread at the start otherwise you would've seen that.

Point 4: Not really that important, but like... 50% of the moves you listed Gar having are completely worthless. Psychic is worthless since nothing ever got hit by it that it wouldn't by any other coverage move. Energy ball is also bad, since 90% of the time you'd rather just use thunder on most targets but arceus ground, which you shouldn't try to trap without it being either chipped or status'd for hex regardless. Icy wind is like... only good if you want to catch a dragon dance attempt from zygarde n mence, otherwise HP ice is better. Gleam is also bad, since anything you'd wanna hit with gleam, is either A, NOT a target to trap like yveltal, or B, weak to focus blast/thunder/hpice. Toxic is never good on it since your usually just better off using wisp hex at that point anyway.

Point 5: I'd actually wager Gen 8 goth is better at trapping than gen 6/7 Mega gar but its also 3am so i dont really want to debate that one. Also btw i actually love wobb that boy is a blessed child but idk bout ya'll but i never saw a single soul ever talk about wobb being such an important mon to keep in this tier until this damn test. Man WHO CARES IF WE LOSE WOBB BRUH. Ya'll wanna use wobby boy that bad use T E L E P A T H Y since you all suddenly seem to love this mon.

You all act like wobb is so important to keep as if keeping it outweighs removing goth. This is like if ya'll were given a choice to end world hunger in exchange for not being able to go to fcking burger king for 1 year and ya'll would be like "ayy but burger king thooo" like COME ONNNN

 

[Deleted User 464209]

You all act like wobb is so important to keep as if keeping it outweighs removing goth. This is like if ya'll were given a choice to end world hunger in exchange for not being able to go to fcking burger king for 1 year and ya'll would be like "ayy but burger king thooo" like COME ONNNN

If only there were a way to ban one but not the other that was consistent with the tiering framework. Hmm...

I think I may get the points to vote no ban on principle. Idk why you would ban anything in ubers that's not purely chance-based, like ohko moves. When playing in a tier that is itself already a banlist, you should expect annoying strategies. If ubers employed the same approach for bans as OU, then it would be just that OU! Instead, people here seem to want to pick and choose what they deem "fundamentally unhealthy" (whatever that is supposed to mean lol).

Now, disregarding the fact that it's always the click-button sweepers that benefit the most from trapping the instant their single stop is removed, pretend gothielle got arena trap: it would still trap the tier that's not hoho. Whereas, trapinch, with shadowtag, is not ever going to be a factor. Pretty obviously the "problematic" factors are due to gothielle's other characteristics beyond its ability.

 

[Lacus Clyne]

Okay can we get serious now?
This thread has become a complete joke and we need to consider that we gotta vote in a few days. Some of you guys should not even post and I have no idea if you all even played this tier. As a german saying goes “just shut the fuck up if you have no idea“. There have been so many great posts about why it should be banned and I completely agree with those. I understand that Wobbuffet is getting an unfair treatment as I too don‘t consider it broken but if it means that we can get rid of the true devil then fuck yes I am down to sacrifice it. I don‘t wanna talk about what happened in past generation or compare abilitys. Like stop derailing this thread with unnecessary input and stay on topic.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

If only there were a way to ban one but not the other that was consistent with the tiering framework. Hmm...

I think I may get the points to vote no ban on principle. Idk why you would ban anything in ubers that's not purely chance-based, like ohko moves. When playing in a tier that is itself already a banlist, you should expect annoying strategies. If ubers employed the same approach for bans as OU, then it would be just that OU! Instead, people here seem to want to pick and choose what they deem "fundamentally unhealthy" (whatever that is supposed to mean lol).

Now, disregarding the fact that it's always the click-button sweepers that benefit the most from trapping the instant their single stop is removed, pretend gothielle got arena trap: it would still trap the tier that's not hoho. Whereas, trapinch, with shadowtag, is not ever going to be a factor. Pretty obviously the "problematic" factors are due to gothielle's other characteristics beyond its ability.

Bold: Because even Ubers has limits as to what they'll tolerate. Otherwise, Mega Rayquaza, Dynamax, and Zacian-Crowned wouldn't have been banned. There's no reason for Ubers to be the tier that allows everything. Anyway, after seeing Fc post those replays, I'm convinced Wobbuffet is also degenerate, given that Encore allows for safe switchins and setup opportunities, and Wobb itself is still a return to sender that can remove stuff, particularly choice-locked mons.

 

[jm2202]

Hello, I believe that shadow tag SHOULD BE BANNED. Shadow tag is definitely broken. For example, a bad starting pokemon would be trapped and not allowed to be switched out, enabling their opponent to change the game drastically. I also believe that switching is a mechanic that was included in pokemon for a reason, it keeps the battle interesting and engaging. Switching is definitely something I support, and I think that it would change pokemon immensely, and in a bad way. Also, shadow tag is always a recurring thought of mine when building teams. It is extremely restrictive and it is an inevitable trap for many players. Even experts would have a hard time countering shadow tag, because it is very useful and they can completely control the match without much effort. In conclusion, I think that shadow tag SHOULD BE BANNED.

 

[Manaphy]

I don’t want to derail the discussion more, but I wanted to address some common misconceptions:

If only there were a way to ban one but not the other that was consistent with the tiering framework. Hmm...

Banning Gothitelle outright would violate the tiering framework because it is not banned in OU. Banning the ability is consistent with other tiers and also addresses any potential problematic aspects in the future (Gothorita, potentially Wobb).

When playing in a tier that is itself already a banlist, you should expect annoying strategies.

This my ideology: I don’t get the mindset that Ubers should go back to being a banlist only, especially when AG exists. What is the point of having Ubers essentially be AG with OHKO/evasion banned? It would be almost the exact same tier. Ubers has gone this way because people like it more.

If ubers employed the same approach for bans as OU, then it would be just that OU!

My ideology is the same as MM2’s here: I don’t think Ubers could become OU even if it tried.

 

[Ortheore]

My ideology is the same as MM2’s here: I don’t think Ubers could become OU even if it tried.

Wholeheartedly agree. The OU banlist is fundamentally arbitrary, and the only generation where this happens to align with establishing a healthy meta is in RBY. Ubers frequently tends to have a healthy metagame without any bans, and in gens where this isn't the case, there's at most a handful that are necessary. Hell, I'd argue that ubers can just as easily be a better format than the corresponding OU (BW2 springs to mind)

If people were sincere about making the primary format for each given generation the one with the fewest restrictions, you would start with ubers and adjust the ruleset from there, which is basically what we're doing this generation. It's a shame that so many people buy into the myth that you need to start from the arbitrary OU ruleset for a healthy meta, without really applying any critical thought to that flawed assumption, because I just don't think it holds up in practice when you play ubers

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Ubers may be a banlist for OU but AG is the banlist for Ubers. Anything that's unhealthy for Ubers should be banished to AG. After STag is banned, there will be only a couple of potential mons potentially unhealthy for the meta (Calyrex-SR and Zacian-H).

 

[Cynara]

Hello!!
I don't feel a Shadow Tag suspect is the best course of action for SS Ubers or the most important element that could have been suspected.

Removing Gothitelle (Shadow Tag), will not improve the tier in the scope people think it will and how it is advertised in this thread. It will only improve player quality of life and not desired metagame development or improvement. Though I will admit the reasoning(s) initial post for the suspect is logically sound. After a lot of reflection on previous Shadow Tag/Gothitelle Suspects over the course of the generations, I feel people look at the issue of Shadow Tag in Ubers with the wrong lenses. Gothitelle being absolutely busted in a Ubers tier is usually a byproduct of larger scale problems, not gothitelle itself.

Think about how SS Ubers is constructed and why it is forced to be constructed like that, Why certain pokemon are forced, this is usually due to more overbearing issues in the teambuilder and metagame itself. Zacian and Calyrex-SR are honestly more overbearing than Gothitelle, Zacian basically forces every balance (and almost every non-HO) team to run Rocky Helmet Strats and/or Physically defensive Necrozma-DM, That is honestly a lot of pressure in the teambuilder, Other Examples being every Yveltal requiring to basically be bulky etc because of Calyrex-SR, hell most balance teams in SS Ubers are almost exactly the same with the winning condition pokemon being different (kyogre, Caly, CB Zacian, Zekrom etc). Gothitelle is just a somewhat powerful "cheese pick" that feeds off metagame trends, just like Sticky Webs are usually considered a cheese pick, If Gothitelle plays vs anything offensive its basically a 5v6, I understand it's people get frustrated by cheese and it is easy to pin them for the biggest problems in the meta, but Gothitelle is nothing like Baton Pass flowchart games or OHKO moves imo.

Shadow Tag (Goths) outright wins games because of the bigger metagame issues impose on the tier, without those, Gothitelle would simply be a matchup fishing pick against fat builds, like it has in all generations of Ubers. Losing Gothitelle doesn't solve the fact that GeoXern can basically roll any generic balance team lacking Ho-Oh half the time, as Necro-DM is unable to run Spdef due to the stipulations of being the only "reliable" Zacian check and even then it can sometimes be a fragile check vs CB Zacian etc. I simply don't feel a Shadow Tag (Gothitelle) ban will solve the crucial issues of SS Ubers, and If people want to see actual changes / improvements to how SS Ubers is played I think a more radical approach may be required to improved the quality of the tier such as a Zacian ban or a Calyrex-SR suspect, the issues with these proposals is it fringes on how we identify and define ubers tiering, therefore undesirable action in the eyes of some in the Ubers playerbase, and maybe we will have to accept SS Ubers as it is.

 

[Tony]

I've seen a number of posts outlining a concern about the order in which we're approaching potential problems in the metagame. Let me make it very clear that Pokemon like Calyrex-S and Zacian are still on our radar and just because we're looking at Shadow Tag right now does not mean we're now done with testing individual Pokemon. Please don't let that affect your vote.

As Icemaster outlined in the OP, we as a council decided to look into Shadow Tag first (!) and I'll be voting to ban Shadow Tag this weekend myself, too. I think Shadow Tag being banned would relieve the pressure on defensive answers significantly, especially at a tournament level. It's just too fundamentally important to be able to switch between your Pokemon. In a perfect world we find a metagame state that is balanced, enjoyable and achieves those things while banning as few Pokemon as possible. This is Ubers after all. If we're still not satisfied after a potential Shadow Tag ban, then we evaluate and take it from there. And when I say "we evaluate" I mean both the council and the community as a whole, by virtue of another survey.

For now, however, we take it one problem at a time. There's no need to rush into anything, as we have the luxury of only having to make very few tiering decisions at all as Ubers. I hope we get a majority ban voting result and I'm excited to see how the metagame would develop from there. Thank you all for posting your opinions and for participating in the vote!

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Hello!!
I don't feel a Shadow Tag suspect is the best course of action for SS Ubers or the most important element that could have been suspected.

Removing Gothitelle (Shadow Tag), will not improve the tier in the scope people think it will and how it is advertised in this thread. It will only improve player quality of life and not desired metagame development or improvement. Though I will admit the reasoning(s) initial post for the suspect is logically sound. After a lot of reflection on previous Shadow Tag/Gothitelle Suspects over the course of the generations, I feel people look at the issue of Shadow Tag in Ubers with the wrong lenses. Gothitelle being absolutely busted in a Ubers tier is usually a byproduct of larger scale problems, not gothitelle itself.

Think about how SS Ubers is constructed and why it is forced to be constructed like that, Why certain pokemon are forced, this is usually due to more overbearing issues in the teambuilder and metagame itself. Zacian and Calyrex-SR are honestly more overbearing than Gothitelle, Zacian basically forces every balance (and almost every non-HO) team to run Rocky Helmet Strats and/or Physically defensive Necrozma-DM, That is honestly a lot of pressure in the teambuilder, Other Examples being every Yveltal requiring to basically be bulky etc because of Calyrex-SR, hell most balance teams in SS Ubers are almost exactly the same with the winning condition pokemon being different (kyogre, Caly, CB Zacian, Zekrom etc). Gothitelle is just a somewhat powerful "cheese pick" that feeds off metagame trends, just like Sticky Webs are usually considered a cheese pick, If Gothitelle plays vs anything offensive its basically a 5v6, I understand it's people get frustrated by cheese and it is easy to pin them for the biggest problems in the meta, but Gothitelle is nothing like Baton Pass flowchart games or OHKO moves imo.

Shadow Tag (Goths) outright wins games because of the bigger metagame issues impose on the tier, without those, Gothitelle would simply be a matchup fishing pick against fat builds, like it has in all generations of Ubers. Losing Gothitelle doesn't solve the fact that GeoXern can basically roll any generic balance team lacking Ho-Oh half the time, as Necro-DM is unable to run Spdef due to the stipulations of being the only "reliable" Zacian check and even then it can sometimes be a fragile check vs CB Zacian etc. I simply don't feel a Shadow Tag (Gothitelle) ban will solve the crucial issues of SS Ubers, and If people want to see actual changes / improvements to how SS Ubers is played I think a more radical approach may be required to improved the quality of the tier such as a Zacian ban or a Calyrex-SR suspect, the issues with these proposals is it fringes on how we identify and define ubers tiering, therefore undesirable action in the eyes of some in the Ubers playerbase, and maybe we will have to accept SS Ubers as it is.

Hello, and welcome to Ubers. The thing is, Shadow Tag enables these breakers, as they appreciate having their checks removed. And it's not like Gothitelle is deadweight against offense, as its presence means that offensive mons that use choice items are prevented from using some of the moves they want to use lest Gothitelle remove them from play - for example, Zacian and Close Combat. It doesn't help that Pursuit is gone, meaning there's no way to punish a Gothitelle that's switching out, nor does it that the removal of Mega Stones and Z-Crystals means that there's no way to block Trick. And then there's the fact it gets Cosmic Power and Stored Power. Also, while everyone fixates on Gothitelle, Wobbuffet is also degenerate, as Encore can allow for safe switchins and setup opportunities by locking mons who think to set up on it, and it's still a return to sender that can remove a mon from the game.

 

[Icemaster]

Shadow Tag has been banned from Ubers. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussions in this thread.
You may use this thread in order to discuss thoughts on the post ban metagame.