Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 4 - POWER (Dynamax Banned)

[Rarycaris]

Ubers can do complex bans, why not try to tone down Calyrex by looking at Astral Barrage first (or even its max level)? I think everything should be at least considered and debated before banning a mon in Ubers with the existing tier framework. Ubers is unique in that it has this huge toolbox for creatively fixing things and people keep reaching for the hammer...

If nothing else, the general distaste for the DLC1-era Dynamax clause, and the way that meta revolved around things that were overpowered but just on the right side of the line to avoid a house-nerf, shows that Ubers isn't entirely comfortable with complex bans to artificially nerf things.

 

[janetplaysag]

If nothing else, the general distaste for the DLC1-era Dynamax clause, and the way that meta revolved around things that were overpowered but just on the right side of the line to avoid a house-nerf, shows that Ubers isn't entirely comfortable with complex bans to artificially nerf things.

astral barrage is not the thing that makes calyrex so powerful, it is as one. if astral barrage was banned, it would just use shadow ball.

 

[Rarycaris]

astral barrage is not the thing that makes calyrex so powerful, it is as one. if astral barrage was banned, it would just use shadow ball.

Did you mean to reply to me here?

For what it's worth, I doubt Calyrex would be anywhere near as dominant as it is now if its damage output got nerfed by a third.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Did you mean to reply to me here?

For what it's worth, I doubt Calyrex would be anywhere near as dominant as it is now if its damage output got nerfed by a third.

You can say the same for any legendary by banning its signature move. Zekrom wouldn't be as good without Bolt Strike, Mega Ray wouldn't be as good without Dragon Ascent, Zygarde wouldn't be as good as Thousand Arrows. Very dumb suggestion to ban Astral Barrage, it won't be broken on any other mon except Calyrex, since only Calyrex has the stats to abuse it (165 sp attack and 150 speed).

Try giving Astral Barrage to Dawn Wings Necrozma and see if it makes much difference.

 

[shadowpea]

You can say the same for any legendary by banning its signature move. Zekrom wouldn't be as good without Bolt Strike, Mega Ray wouldn't be as good without Dragon Ascent, Zygarde wouldn't be as good as Thousand Arrows. Very dumb suggestion to ban Astral Barrage, it won't be broken on any other mon except Calyrex, since only Calyrex has the stats to abuse it (165 sp attack and 150 speed).

Try giving Astral Barrage to Dawn Wings Necrozma and see if it makes much difference.

Okay... first, not to be that guy, but MRay can't mega evolve without dragon ascent. But Mray without ascent (assuming its legal) will definately be worse off you're right.

Second, NDW might not be that good by itself even with Astral Barrage, but in Natdex a NDW-based CM Ultra Necrozma would have a niche I guess. This is going to be a bit off topic but where Ultra is legal NDW+Moongeist Ultra Necrozma actualy have a niche. I've used one of those myself with decent success (in USUM Ubers though). Everyone expect a SD set coming from it. So yeah giving Astral Barrage to Dawn Wings might not make it goood, but it will make Ultra better.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Okay... first, not to be that guy, but MRay can't mega evolve without dragon ascent. But Mray without ascent (assuming its legal) will definately be worse off you're right.

Second, NDW might not be that good by itself even with Astral Barrage, but in Natdex a NDW-based CM Ultra Necrozma would have a niche I guess. This is going to be a bit off topic but where Ultra is legal NDW+Moongeist Ultra Necrozma actualy have a niche. I've used one of those myself with decent success (in USUM Ubers though). Everyone expect a SD set coming from it. So yeah giving Astral Barrage to Dawn Wings might not make it goood, but it will make Ultra better.

As you admit NDW (in Gen 8 Ubers) won't be much better with Astral Barrage despite having 157 base sp attack, you can see how it is a terrible suggestion to ban the move. Calyrex can only spam it because of its high speed (which NDW lacks) along with high special attack. Same reason Blaziken was banned in Gen 5-7 and not speed boost.

 

[shadowpea]

As you admit NDW (in Gen 8 Ubers) won't be much better with Astral Barrage despite having 157 base sp attack, you can see how it is a terrible suggestion to ban the move. Calyrex can only spam it because of its high speed (which NDW lacks) along with high special attack. Same reason Blaziken was banned in Gen 5-7 and not speed boost.

Fair enough. I do agree banning a move is dumb unless it's obviously broken or uncompetative (double team).

Calyrex is the biggest problem. One of the biggest things is that it has only one counter, and that is SpD Snarl Yveltal. Snarl, I beg you. This is because SubSeed can kill Yveltal unless Yveltal uses a sound move or multi-hit move, as well as ignore Imposter and dont care about prioroty behind a sub. Not to mention how easy Yveltal is to overload these days, and Snarl variants are usually just dead weight if Caly is not there. You have to dedicate a whole teamslot just for this.

 

[Garrett]

Reached top 30 on ladder with abusing Scarf Calyrex-Shadow, and I agree with the general thoughts that the tier isn't in such an exciting place right now and that Calyrex-Shadow probably deserves at least a suspect test, ban or not. I'd go as far as ban, and I'll explain why I'm worried.

CALYREX:
1.) You need a Yveltal, and a very specific supporting team with it that takes status, heals status, and Knock Off so it keeps its boots--unless you have a Ditto. For the former case, it becomes a game of shuffling Yveltal/Eternatus or Zacian (the Knock Off switch-in) and managing hazards (without inviting in the Calyrex-Shadow!). The game becomes linear, redundant, and a matter of who loses patience first. For the latter case, people throw out mons and some games just have to come down to a speed tie. HO can't reliably switch-in to Astral Barrage more than once, so they far too often will go to Ditto late game and just risk it all right there against my Scarf Calyrex-Shadow.

It's just a game of odds:
a.) Have Sucker Punch, kill it
b.) Have Sucker Punch, but guess the set wrong!
c.) Don't have Sucker Punch, but you live and kill it
d.) Don't have Sucker Punch, but a +1 Astral Barrage and other residual has put you in range already. Should've kept it healthy by losing all momentum to click Roost last time it hit you.
e.) Run scarf and die to rocks [GET DESTROYED :D]

See: Icemaster's 6v2 ladder adventure replay of fun, don't have the link, but you know the one.

In short, the entire team becomes one that is better the more mons it has that take on Calyrex-Shadow for the most part, where the drawback for defending against other mons isn't really felt as much (the one exception being the need for NDM for Zacian).

2.) If you don't run Snarl, you still theoretically lose to SubSeed. I've seen SubSeed + Nasty Plot + Astral Barrage, which screams "I am solely here to beat Yveltal, that's all I need to." Nasty Plot on their Roost and you win. Combined with Zygarde as general para support or Toxic Spikes support, and Yveltal is the only thing truly stopping all Calyrex-Shadow, and it's still not a certainty.

3.) Ubers analogue to Gen 7 Naganadel in OU:
"Guys, he switched in Naganadel. But don't worry, let's switch in my max SpDef Heatran or Assault Vest Tyranitar. Better hope it's not a set that rocks me (here, the right Hidden Power). This will take surely the hit twice, maybe even thrice if they don't Nasty Plot and I get good rolls. I definitely would be using this mon in this fringe way if this strong, legitimate-for-OU mon was gone!"

I really agree with FC04's take that building teams isn't fun. You need the 3, honestly 4 of 6 mons in the likes of Etern/Yvel/NDM (and maybe Ho-Oh/Zygarde) to serve as your defensive core err on the side of safe. If you're trying to stunt or die, you can run 1, maybe 2 "fun" mons if you're feeling exceptionally brave. If not, you run the broken 1-2 mons you see the most coverage of in this thread.

 

[HanSoloIndie]

Figured I would post this now, but regardless of blaming more on

or

, I think everyone agrees that both of them unhealthily constrict the team builder and make Ubers a not-so-great place to play. (Thanks Staxi and Sparksblade for giving me feedback on this!) Here are some main reasons I think why both need to get the boot:

The Teambuilder

Arguably the most important is that they together overcentralize the meta around them to check them, even by Uber standards. There's no way your Ubers team will even be viable if you don't have Yveltal + Necrozma-Dusk-Mane + other defensive filler. Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider selfishly gatekeep teambuilding creativity. You want to put a Chansey, Blissey, Tyrannitar, and/or Yveltal to check Calyrex-Shadow-Rider? Too bad, it's food for Zacian-Crowned. You want to put max Impish Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Quagsire, or Ditto for Zacian-Crowned? Except for Ditto, all of these fall to Calyrex-Shadow-Rider.

All of these defensive mons can not BOTH beat Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider. Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider just enable each other to cover a ridiculous amount of potential counterplay. As a matter of fact, bringing stuff like Quagsire and Max-Impish HDB Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (really?) is mostly dead weight against threats not named Zacian-Crowned. The same goes for Snarl Yveltal and Shadow Ball Chansey/Blissey (like seriously?!?) for Calyrex-Shadow-Rider. It opens up holes in the teambuilder that people are forced to accept.

Gatekeeping

They gatekeep the role of what it means to be a viable offensive threat in Ubers, and do not have ANY sort of competition for their roles (If Zacian-Crowned was a frail special sweeper, it would be a different story, as Calyrex-Shadow-Rider would clearly outclass it. Obviously, that’s not the case). Any other mon like Xerneas, Zygarde-Complete, Yveltal, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Kygore can only hope to be in their shadow and have sets that outspeed + OHKO them or tank one hit. I want to make this clear: this in itself is not a bad thing. Rather, it can encourage creativity into set building and explore more roles for these mons to take. However, when you already have two mons that already suffocate the teambuilder, this net positive rarely happens.

Their numerous sets

For being offensive mons, they sure have a surprising amount of unpredictability and uncertainty. This means they have little or no proper counterplay. Everyone knows Calyrex-Shadow-Rider’s multiple sets meant to screw its traditional checks, like Subseed, Choice Specs, Life Orb, Choice Scarf + Trick, and so forth. But what about Zacian-Crowned ? Isn’t it just a linear offensive attacker/SD cleaner? Frankly, the answer is no.

Uninvested Def/SpDef Zacian-Crowned is tanky enough to easily take THREE Sunsteel Strikes from an uninvested Attack Max-Impish Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, switch into Zygarde-Complete’s thousand arrows and LO Yveltal’s heat wave once (and outspeed all of them uninvested in Speed). Now imagine a 92/115/115 fast Steel/Fairy mon that gets a +1 in attack to its 170 stat invested in bulk. It’s certainly not passive by any means. As users like Fc04, Luna's Banned now, and users in the general Ubers discord point out (see screenshot attachments), Zacian-Crowned is abusing its stat spreads on sets like Max HP-invested Agility sets, SpDef sets, and Resttalk sets. Depending on the set, it can invest enough to take Kygore’s’s Origin Pulse and dent it (using a SpDef or outspeed it with Agility 252/252 Atk set), outspeed and kill Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Geomancy Xerneas (using an Agility 252 HP/252 Atk or SpDef set, and it can even use boosted Geomancy Xerneas as set-up fodder), and is (likely) 3HKOed by an uninvested Zygarde-Complete thousand arrows (252 HP/252 Atk Agility or physically Def sets). Ironically, if it wasn’t for Calyrex-Shadow-Rider, we would never consider these creative sets as even viable. Thus, Zacian-Crowned is now difficult to discern in the team preview what set it is running, which brings a whole host of problems. It is not too dissimilar to the threat of Calyrex-Shadow-Rider’s sets.

But what are some legitimate counterarguments to both of these? After all, this is a serious possible decision the Ubers tier will have to confront. Let’s take a look at the commonly brought up points and why it does not always hold up:

Perhaps we should give more time for the meta to develop proper counterplay.

This is arguably the best counterpoint, as it has been less than a month since DLC2, and the council has recently banned Dynamax. However, how can this meta develop and be healthy when Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Zacian-Crowned suck up all of the creativity in the teambuilder? Sure the meta has developed since DLC2 and the Dynamax ban. But it’s not healthy seeing the exact same team structure: Yveltal + Necrozma-Dusk-Mane + Other Zacian-C/Calyrex-Shadow-Rider check 1 + Other Zacian-C/Calyrex-Shadow-Rider check 2 + Zacian-Crowned and/or Calyrex-Shadow-Rider. Without teambuilder creativity, a developing meta and a healthy meta can not coexist.

Common Calyrex-Shadow-Rider counterarguments

is x4 weak to Dark and Ghost-type moves, which has common priority moves like Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. Also, its bulk is terrible by Ubers standards. Therefore, it has proper offensive counterplay.

If we were to look at all of the relevant priority users that can hit Calyrex-Shadow-Rider with Dark or Ghost priority, only Yveltal and Marshadow can fulfill that. The rest, like Urshifu-Single-Strike, both Giratina forms, are unviable in Ubers. Even then, Yveltal and Marshadow are not safe, as Subseed sets annihilate them and Snarl Yveltal is required.

Yes, by Ubers standards, Calyrex-Shadow-Rider is frail by Ubers standards. But does that really hinder it achieving its goals? This reminds me of the initial reaction people had with Marshadow going to Ubers back in Gen 7. People claimed that its mediocre bulk and defensive typing would limit its viability, and look how we were proven wrong! Now replace that with a mon with 150 base speed, 160 Special Attack, and slightly BETTER overall bulk. Calyrex-Shadow-Rider can live one neutral hit from most mons, set up, and proceed to kill.

Common Zacian-Crowned counterarguments

has Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Quagsire, and Ditto to counter it. It even has more soft checks than

. Therefore, it has proper defensive counterplay.

By definition, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is not a counter to Zacian-Crowned. It counters one common set of Zacian-Crowned, that being the non-Assurance all-out-attacker set (and maybe Max-HP Agility sets based on EV investment?). It falls to the SD sets and the Assurance sets. A more appropriate term would be a check. Quagsire and Ditto are true counters. However, Quagsire is only viable to solely counter Zacian-Crowned and is fodder against other crucial MUs. Ditto is only viable in a meta where offense dominates and is a symptom of a greater disease, and even that's screwed by the Substitute set.

We have stuff like Max-impish Zygarde-Complete, Def-invested Ho-Oh, and of course Necrozma-Dusk-Mane as defensive soft checks for Zacian-Crowned. But again, most of these mons fall to either Zacian-Crowned’s coverage, a single misplay, or brute force. Keeping Zacian-Crowned at bay requires 2-3 of these viable mons on a team, no exceptions. Which of course, unhealthily suffocates the teambuilder.

The leaders have (and continue to) ban Moody, multiple sleep statuses, endless battles, Evasion, OHKO moves, and species clause each generation for obvious reasons. But to what extent should the highest power-ceiling tier’s meta bend over to a mon? The only reference we have to that is the infamous Mega Rayquaza ban, and that had extenuating circumstances. Does

and

meet the circumstances listed in the article explaining why AG was formed?

Not using it creates a tremendous opportunity cost loss.
If we were to look at current stats, for 1760+, Calyrex-Shadow-Rider sits at a weighted 48.66047% while Zacian-Crowned sits at a weighted 55.23522%. But notice how Yveltal and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane supersede them by a noticeable margin. This is due to them adapting to Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider’s immense influence on the metagame.

The meta right now is heavily skewed towards hyper offense playstyles. As of right now, defensive core + stall teams are heavily unfavored. Put simply, Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider have no competition for their roles, and using other offensive mons instead immediately puts your team at a disadvantage.

Insane stats and movepool allow for immense versatility and overbearing offensive prowess.
This obviously does not need to be explained for

and

.

Required obscure and niche checks or sets to stop it, and everything else could be 2HKOed/countered by it based on the set/item it ran.

For Calyrex-Shadow-Rider, we have Snarl Yveltal, Ditto, and Shadow Ball Blissey as clearly niche sets, and for Zacian-Crowned, we have HDB Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Ditto, and Quagsire. All of these aforementioned mons are clearly designed to solely counter Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Zacian-Crowned. As explained above in Main Point #3, Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Zacian-Crowned both have various sets that screw their traditional checks and counters.

(This is somewhat more optional, but it is still crucial somewhat) The mon in question has an ability that makes it easier to set up and sweep, therefore requiring less skill to pull off.

As One (Spectrier) prevents berries from being eaten and gives a +1 Special Attack for each Pokemon KO’ed. This constricts defensive checks and gives a snowballing effect. It is honestly not hard to easily Nasty Plot + get another boost by a KO, and reach +3. By then, the opposing team will be reverse swept unless you have priority users like Yveltal or Marshadow, and even then they are not fully safe.

Now for Intrepid Sword, it may not seem as obvious. Intrepid Sword gives an automatic boost +1 to the user’s attack stat, which if I were to show some example calcs, make a world of difference in being able to possibility check Zacian-Crowned:​

With Intrepid Sword

• +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 219-258 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after Stealth Rock)
• +3 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 243-286 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 338-402 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Zacian-Crowned uses a SD set or 252 HP/252 Atk Agility set)
• +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 278-328 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this also applies to Adamant Zacian-Crowned)
• +1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Fairy Aura Xerneas: 316-373 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 256-303 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 231-273 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without Intrepid Sword

• 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 147-174 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• +2 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 195-230 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 228-270 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 186-220 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (becomes a near-guaranteed 2HKO on Adamant Zacian-Crowned)
• 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Fairy Aura Xerneas: 211-250 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 171-202 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 154-183 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Intrepid Sword lowers the skill curve in breaking defensive mons like above. These mons could be considered proper checks and counters if Intrepid Sword did not give an automatic Attack boost to Zacian-Crowned. Since the majority of these mons make up team cores, this lowered skill curve extends to entire teams. Zacian-Crowned is frequently one entry hazard, one critical hit, one Swords Dance, or one misplay away from sweeping entire Uber teams.

Obviously, these Abilities themselves are only good to an extent in a vacuum, but when given to mons like Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider, it becomes a key factor in their over-centralization. (As a unrelated fun fact, Intrepid Sword is banned in both Balanced Hackmons and Natdex Balanced Hackmons!).

I think I should at least suspect and test them at the bare minimum.

and

are clearly overcentralizing the Ubers tier right now, and doing something is better than nothing. Honestly, about half about what I said is being repeated and backed up by even better players and users in Ubers ad nauseum. I have personally voted in favor of both of them of being sent to AG. The biggest problem is that we can theoretically predict that one of these mons overcentralize to the tier without the other, but which one is the lesser poison? That can't be predicted accurately, but they still are a poison to the creativity of the Ubers teambuilder, so IMO the best solution is to get rid of them both.

I look forward to the upcoming community survey and am curious to see what that brings to the table. Hopefully, the Ubers tier can change for the better, and who knows? Maybe if we’re lucky and the meta changes enough or we get the Primals and Arceus forms back, we can always suspect them back into Ubers. Thanks for taking your time to read this...Happy Holidays, and stay safe everyone!

 

[Joseph Gomes]

We need a VR update before any suspect test should happen, if they happen.

 

[HanSoloIndie]

3.) Ubers analogue to Gen 7 Naganadel in OU:
"Guys, he switched in Naganadel. But don't worry, let's switch in my max SpDef Heatran or Assault Vest Tyranitar. Better hope it's not a set that rocks me (here, the right Hidden Power). This will take surely the hit twice, maybe even thrice if they don't Nasty Plot and I get good rolls.
I definitely would be using this mon in this fringe way if this strong, legitimate-for-OU mon was gone!"

To add on to this in a humorous way:
"Guys, he switched into Zacian-Crowned. But don't worry, let's switch my max-Impish HDB Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, max-Impish Ho-Oh, or max-Impish Zygarde. Better hope it's not a set that rocks me (Assurance or Swords Dance sets). They will surely take the hit twice, maybe even thrice if they don't Swords Dance or have entry hazards and I get good rolls. I definitely would be using these mons's fringe EV investments and sets if this strong, legitimate-for-Ubers mon was gone!"
and of course,
"Guys, he switched into Calyrex-Shadow-Rider. But don't worry, let's switch my Snarl Yveltal, Shadow Ball Blissey/Chansey, or Tyrannitar. Better hope it's not a set that rocks me (Subseed + Nasty Plot or Trick sets). They will surely take the hit twice, maybe even thrice if they don't Nasty Plot or Trick and I get good rolls. I definitely would be using these mons's fringe EV investments and sets if this strong, legitimate-for-Ubers mon was gone!"
Seriously BasedWhat?, I really liked your analysis in that post and that there is golden material for memes there!

 

[Garrett]

Here's a part of my SS Ubers teambuilder you all might enjoy looking at. Zacian + Calyrex are ridiculously centralizing to say the least. I do have other teams with other defensive cores (along with some HO teams), but it's just not comparable in terms of reliability. I do hope things could change.

 

[JT Yao]

Gonna edit this post later to give my thoughts on the current state of the meta. I will say at this time, I don’t necessarily think the metagame is unplayable, but it’s very restrictive to the point that I completely understand why many users feel the need to call it an unhealthy meta. The biggest problem is undoubtedly Zacian-C, but Calyrex-S follows right after. In the meantime, here’s not one, but two Top 5 ladder peaks, one of which is #1! After Most Wanted, I will fill in some hot takes and thoughts about the team building constraints caused by Zacian-C, Calyrex-S, and Kyogre. Looking above at the post by BasedWhat? you have a general idea of the three mons most players use for their defensive backbone. As my good friend Manaphy would say, “3-0‘d by Groudon lel”

 

[Stallion]

Gonna edit this post later to give my thoughts on the current state of the meta. I will say at this time, I don’t necessarily think the metagame is unplayable, but it’s very restrictive to the point that I completely understand why many users feel the need to call it an unhealthy meta. The biggest problem is undoubtedly Zacian-C, but Calyrex-S follows right after. In the meantime, here’s not one, but two Top 5 ladder peaks, one of which is #1! After Most Wanted, I will fill in some hot takes and thoughts about the team building constraints caused by Zacian-C, Calyrex-S, and Kyogre. Looking above at the post by BasedWhat? you have a general idea of the three mons most players use for their defensive backbone. As my good friend Manaphy would say, “3-0‘d by Groudon lel”

Hey look, I'm in your peak screenshot.

Adding on to the last few posts, I feel like a lot of great anti-meta sets (CB Yveltal, offensive Nerozma-DM) aren't actually viable because Zacian-C, Calyrex-S and to a slightly lesser extent, Kyogre, put so much pressure on team building, that they're forced to run one specific set or your whole team gets steamrolled. I can't recall the last time there was this little creativity in an Ubers metagame.

P.S. I miss Primal Groudon.

 

[Carl Murray]

I can't recall the last time there was this little creativity in an Ubers metagame.

RBY Ubers
Gen 6 Ubers with Xerneas when it started

Not that it is a bad thing to have little creativity (which in fact, you can, but you take the risk to be weak to one mon).

At the moment, half the teams are unprepared to Zekrom because everything is focalised on Caly+Zacian. People are running Eternatus just to beat Kyogre even though it's not anymore one of the best mon in the tier. I have experienced a lot of weird thing in ubers and I have to admit to have been disappointed to see no real creativity, not even some HO teams that beat both Caly and Zacian.

 

[JT Yao]

RBY Ubers
Gen 6 Ubers with Xerneas when it started

Not that it is a bad thing to have little creativity (which in fact, you can, but you take the risk to be weak to one mon).

At the moment, half the teams are unprepared to Zekrom because everything is focalised on Caly+Zacian. People are running Eternatus just to beat Kyogre even though it's not anymore one of the best mon in the tier. I have experienced a lot of weird thing in ubers and I have to admit to have been disappointed to see no real creativity, not even some HO teams that beat both Caly and Zacian.

On a non-peak related post, I wanted to address some of the points my guy Carl Murray brought up.

To start with, RBY Ubers didn't have much creativity sure, but it was mostly bring Mewtwo/Mew on every team (bc they're the only true ubers) and then pick 4 mons which don't get cheesed by para/freeze (some combination of Snorlax/Chansey/and two psychics or one psychic + Tauros) - source: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-ubers-master-viability-ranking-2019

I’m not too familiar with XY Ubers, but I recall reading people were using weird things like AV Clear Smog Amoongus to deal with big threats like GeoXern and Ogre - if that's not a sign of creativity, idk what is. Sure it was oppressive, but the meta still allowed room for creative team building.

Now moving forward to SS, every decent team that carries the tools to deal with Calyrex/Zacian/Ogre are inherently going to be weak to Zekrom/Groudon, and those that have additional support for one or two of Zekrom/Groudon/Zygarde/LO Marsh/etc. are probably (too) passive in nature. You have to accept the fact that SS Ubers doesn't allow for much creativity, unless you allow certain MUs to be dicey, but yeah it's an optimization problem at the end of the day - like if you run HO, you have to run webs or screens to not get totally fckd by Zaci/Caly/Ditto, but HO is volatile to begin with because if you miss a move, you get placed in an awful position.

Right now, the tier itself is quite restrictive and you have the option of breaking the monotony, but be cognizant that you will lose to certain mons. For me, I personally think the standard NDM/Yveltal/Etern (or Palkia) core is almost necessary on every non-HO team. But to fill in the rest is tough, for example this core is decimated by Zekrom (NDM has to run Helmet + EQ to even stand a chance), Dual Dance and Para Dance Groudon, DD Zyg, Life Orb Ada Marsh with Poltergeist, etc.

Edit: After Most Wanted, I will fill in some more thoughts and possibly post another peak or two.

 

[LBN]

RBY Ubers
Gen 6 Ubers with Xerneas when it started

Not that it is a bad thing to have little creativity (which in fact, you can, but you take the risk to be weak to one mon).

At the moment, half the teams are unprepared to Zekrom because everything is focalised on Caly+Zacian. People are running Eternatus just to beat Kyogre even though it's not anymore one of the best mon in the tier. I have experienced a lot of weird thing in ubers and I have to admit to have been disappointed to see no real creativity, not even some HO teams that beat both Caly and Zacian.

For starters, RBY shouldn't even count, so I'm not even gonna discuss that one. As for XY, while i didn't play it, you could still pick and choose from a sizable handful of pokemon to pick from to deal with xerneas; Bronzong, Mega scizor, prankster twave Keys, Aegislash and poison types like Mega venu, AV clear smog amoongus, and even psych up Arc-poison could be used, on top of the potential Revenge killers like Ekiller, Bullet punch Mega Lucario, Espeed Ray, and Mega Kangaskhan.

Zacian on the other hand, has 4 pokemon in the entire pokedex that can even switch in so yea lol. 4 pokemon that are statiscally faster than it, and 0 pokemon that have priority strong enough to kill it from even half.

The 4 pokemon faster are as follows

First off, Ninjask is terrible and would never revenge kill zacian without dig, and that does like 42. Regieleki is only good with screens, and thus isn't killing it. Pheromosa can run banded, but the oppurtunity cost of even using pheromosa is painful on your defensive backbone. And ya'll know about Calyrex.

Relevant Scarfers include:

Darm-G is stretching it btw. The dumb part about Zacian is you don't even lose much from not even running much speed atall. 76 speed nets you an outspeed on adamant marshadow, and everything pretty much beyond that is either a bad set, too much oppurtunity cost, aka life orb Eternatus, Pheromosa, or just bad mons like Mewtwo.

As for priority...

252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 106-126 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 121-144 (37.2 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And for the switchins. We got 4 in the entire dex.

:pog:

Man Eternamax is such a perfect counter... if only it was even obtainable. As for the serious ones, Arcanine is not viable, so you can pretty much ignore that one aswell. The other 2 we got are the only ones in the entire pokedex who switch in relatively safely. But not really, since Necrozma can take 90% from assurance after rocks. Besides that it's fine but you can just auto lose if it is that set. Quagsire is unironically the only counter to this mon in the entire pokedex of nearly 950 pokemon if you include forms that you could ever obtain. That on its own would be enough to ban a pokemon from literally any other tier. It's like if dragapult dropped to RU and people were like, yo this thing is fine, we got Wigglytuff w babiri berry!! like no, the thing is broken. Unless we got like a turbo counter in the next gen thats steel ghost with a dark immunity and the bulk of doublade minumum, this thing should honestly stay banned for every consecutive generation even after this one, becaue unlike Calyrex, it won't really be bothered that much even if everything we lost got returned. The single 2 things that could be brought back to even make zacian flinch would be pdon and Deoxys-Attack. Pdon barely even switches in more than once, so unless they gave pdon morning sun, it's gonna lose in the long run. Deoxys-attack could run fire punch or stomping tantrum to atleast attemp a revenge kill, but Deoxys-attack can't switch into a Zigzagoon so.

Calyrex would actually be bothered by quite a few returning things if we were given everything back. Arceus-Dark would be a potential side option to yveltal, even gets snarl too. Mega Tyranitar would be blessed aswell, aswell as niche things like Alolan Muk would be able to atleast curb astral once. Also the literal embodiment of the holy grail, pursuit. These things would honestly, be enough for me to consider Calyrex to be managable for the tier, but as it is, LOL get it out.

Also as mentioned up above, Probably the most annoying part of the tier rn is that you can literally pull up with any team and be 6-0d by Zekrom, Groudon, Marshadow or Zygarde. Because you need Yveltal/TTar Eternatus Necrozma, you literally cannot cover all these above if you wanna build around literally anything else that's fun. If you wanna use like Kyurem-white, You can't cover all of these without having other glaring issues like lack of priority, generally being a slow team unless you run scarf kyu-w which is bad. And if you pull up with Zacian to cover the speed, your even more unable to handle one if not two of these. That's why this meta is so genuinely unbearable to play.

To put into perspective how unfun i find this tier, I'd rather pull up to my dusty cartridge of smash ultimate, unplug my lan adapter, move my router to my Neighbours house, pull up to online with somebody from across the globe and use ice climbers.

Sprites used

 

[shadowpea]

As an extension to what these people said, Groudon is an absolute monster in a metagame like this. Recall BaseWhat?'s teambuilder of Eternatus/NDM/Yveltal. All three are incredibly weak to Groudon (assuming stone edge). Groudon almost always packs EQ/Precpice Blades and Stone Edge and then have two of SD/RP/Heat Crash/some status move. Easily the most dangerous are setup variants (seeing how Heat Crash gets pseudo STAB) that utilizes RP or both SD and RP (just SD is not as good as plenty of things can revenge it). After RP almost all teams utilizing the Eternatus/NDM/Yveltal structure gets blown apart. Ho-Oh being a premier defensive Pokemon doesn't help matters.

Was going to post something like this but had tons of schoolwork and a recital to prepare for so was naturally ninja'd by like 10 different people. I don't care. Posting this anyway.

 

[Carl Murray]

I agree with most of the points you pointed out and it seems the root of the issue is more Zacian than Calyrex to be fair.

i’m not saying the meta did not develop in gen 6, just that at the release of the meta people were toying with new mons, so no creativity at first. This meta is new, DLC has been out for like a month or two!

As to current gen, the fact that Yveltal and NDM are everywhere is not only because they deal well with Zacian and Caly. They check as well: Xerneas, Mewtwo, Calyrex-Ice, Lunala, Solgaleo, Lugia, Giratina-O, Marshadow to an extent if Yveltal has some def invest and Oblivion wing.

Now about Calyrex: if you don’t want to use Yveltal/Mandibuzz, you can use Umbreon which is far from being bad, Porygon 2 with foul play, Ttar with rest and crunch if you want to always have a shot to switch in and don’t forget that it can be paired with driller that beats Zacian! If you really want to be creative, use Incineroar, it wins easily as well. Lastly you have Zarude that can have a little niche in the tier. Why people use Yveletal: because it has an excellent speed tier for a defensive mon, the fact it has access to defog and Dark Aura makes it Knock off and Foul Play hit hard and the access to u-turn can on the switch allow you to send a big hitter. If you want to be cool you can also use Galarian Moltres!

About Zacian: it basically depends on the move it’s running: if it’s SD Behemoth CC Play Rough/Assurance/Wild Charge you basically pick your own counters. Which is true that this mon has no unconditional switch ins bar Quagsire and Necrozma Dusk mane. But if it lacks a dark move, Shedinja walls it. If it lacks an electric move, Ho-oh, Toxapex and even Pyukumuku walls it. If it lacks play rough, it misses out some potential KOs on like Giratina (which sucks). The point is: I agree that this is the most dangerous threat but I don’t see how it’s different from Rayquaza in gen 4, that had little counters depending on the move it picked.

I’m not saying those two are not ok for a suspect. I just don’t think people are trying as much as when gen 8 started to be creative. We used to see Corvi, Skarmory at a point to deal with Zacian, since it would almost autokill itself with recoil and rocky helmet. I have yet to see one sun or sand team in the meta. It will get more diversified once people start testing more and more playstyles. The fact we had the new DLC had a lot of legendaries made it so people are toying with the influx of legendaries the dlc gave, in my opinion. The same way gen 6 started to get creative and found ways to deal with Xerneas and stuff, I’m pretty positive this meta will too, especially when an eventual dlc 3 will come out and bring back Arceus, Meloetta (100% counters Calyrex) and stuff. I’ll for sure continue trying out different stuff because I have been enjoying the meta now to be fair.

 

[LBN]

I agree with most of the points you pointed out and it seems the root of the issue is more Zacian than Calyrex to be fair.

i’m not saying the meta did not develop in gen 6, just that at the release of the meta people were toying with new mons, so no creativity at first. This meta is new, DLC has been out for like a month or two!

As to current gen, the fact that Yveltal and NDM are everywhere is not only because they deal well with Zacian and Caly. They check as well: Xerneas, Mewtwo, Calyrex-Ice, Lunala, Solgaleo, Lugia, Giratina-O, Marshadow to an extent if Yveltal has some def invest and Oblivion wing.

Now about Calyrex: if you don’t want to use Yveltal/Mandibuzz, you can use Umbreon which is far from being bad, Porygon 2 with foul play, Ttar with rest and crunch if you want to always have a shot to switch in and don’t forget that it can be paired with driller that beats Zacian! If you really want to be creative, use Incineroar, it wins easily as well. Lastly you have Zarude that can have a little niche in the tier. Why people use Yveletal: because it has an excellent speed tier for a defensive mon, the fact it has access to defog and Dark Aura makes it Knock off and Foul Play hit hard and the access to u-turn can on the switch allow you to send a big hitter. If you want to be cool you can also use Galarian Moltres!

About Zacian: it basically depends on the move it’s running: if it’s SD Behemoth CC Play Rough/Assurance/Wild Charge you basically pick your own counters. Which is true that this mon has no unconditional switch ins bar Quagsire and Necrozma Dusk mane. But if it lacks a dark move, Shedinja walls it. If it lacks an electric move, Ho-oh, Toxapex and even Pyukumuku walls it. If it lacks play rough, it misses out some potential KOs on like Giratina (which sucks). The point is: I agree that this is the most dangerous threat but I don’t see how it’s different from Rayquaza in gen 4, that had little counters depending on the move it picked.

I’m not saying those two are not ok for a suspect. I just don’t think people are trying as much as when gen 8 started to be creative. We used to see Corvi, Skarmory at a point to deal with Zacian, since it would almost autokill itself with recoil and rocky helmet. I have yet to see one sun or sand team in the meta. It will get more diversified once people start testing more and more playstyles. The fact we had the new DLC had a lot of legendaries made it so people are toying with the influx of legendaries the dlc gave, in my opinion. The same way gen 6 started to get creative and found ways to deal with Xerneas and stuff, I’m pretty positive this meta will too, especially when an eventual dlc 3 will come out and bring back Arceus, Meloetta (100% counters Calyrex) and stuff. I’ll for sure continue trying out different stuff because I have been enjoying the meta now to be fair.

I don't even know where to begin with this, so i'm gonna start with from the bottom and work my way up. First off, there's a very good reason why we haven't seen Sand or Sun teams much atall and it revolves on what changed in the meta.

First off, Zygarde invalidates Excadrill offensively fairly easily, and Excadrill was the main reason to pull up with sand in the first place. If Zygarde can swallow a life orb +2 Groudon precipice blades on a roll, its going to swallow an Excadrill earthquake like it just ate some Pepto Bismo prior, smooth sailing from there. Even if you don't have a zygarde, using driller sand is such a matchup fish rn that it's not worth it, with hardly enough worthwhile gains to make it worthwhile. When Sand has so many common enemies like Kyogre, Groudon, Zygarde, and even more "Niche" stuff like Giratina-O, Lugia, and Rayquaza. Sure if you run into a Zacian Caly-G Ho-oh Necrozma-DM Eternatus Yveltal squad you can probably smash it but it's usually not worth bringing unless you KNOW your opp is bringing something that WILL get smashed. The only time i saw Sand smoke someone is when 64 squares pulled up to Nora with a Super CT that makes Roomtours scouters look mild in CPL.

As for Sun, It reasonably could be explored more, sure, but there's a bunch of other issues with sun you have to deal with. For starters, Slapping a heat rock on a Groudon is a very painful waste of a Groudon. Even beyond this, which is a slight pain compared what else you gonna deal with. First off, the removal of dynamax basically nulled Charizard as an effective Solar power abuser due to its more apparently lack of speed boosting and way to muscle past Eternatus, which we'll get to Etern later.

For Chlorophyll sweepers, aka your primary sun sweepers, have a Litany of issues on their own. Vileplume and Victreebel are turbo Budget Venusaurs, and tbh i'd rather use Ivysaur over Vileplume too. Shiftry is decent, but struggles with 4MSS, you need dark pulse for Calyrex/Necrozma/Zekrom/Dialga/Lugia. You need Grass stab to smack Groudon and Zygardes and punish a Kyogre trying to go hard into you. You need Heat wave for Zacian, want Extrasensory for Eternatus, Rock slide for Ho-oh, and even then you want to be able to boost with Growth or SD. and even if you could fit all of this your wanting for power on your grass stab since if you run solar blade/solar beam, Scarf kyogre can raw into a solar blade and ice beam your Shiftry to the shadow realm. If Explosion never got nerfed i'd give it a nod as an option but it did so yea lol.

Exeggutor sounds absolutely flames i cannot lie, but at the same time it's got problems aswell. While it could run a mixed set w Psychic Ancient Power Grass stab + Stomping tantrum/Sleep powder, it still is forced to run timid/naive to outspeed Calyrex, which also btw, invalidates Vileplume as a decent option. Ideally Sleep power Grass rock psychic would be best, but go tell Mr. 55% usage Dusk Mane to say hi to eggy and you'll see the issue here pretty soon. BTW stomping tantrum will do like 30% max so yea. Your also giving it 75% recovery for free so forget chipping it too.

Tangrowth and Bellosom are too slow and both have no weather ball, Whimsicott has less power than QUAGSIRE, so LOOOOL to that mon, Spikes isn't saving Maractus when it's walled by eternatus with 0 PP on all damaging moves, Lilligant has less Coverage than Regieleki, and then you get to the final pokemon, Leafeon looks ok on paper but then you peep the beautiful Yveltal at usage number bloody 2, and realize you aren't breaking that. Even beyond Yveltal, Eternatus doesn't even die to +2 power herb dig after rocks, and Ho-oh, while not appreciating knock off, will block you at least once.

Solar power is useless since you are never pulling up with Heliolisk, and zard is invalidated. Sun's abusers just have too many problems to be considered worth using an a dedicated play style. If anything, i could see Sun with Banded Ho-oh + DD weather ball kyurem black to snipe Necrozma but other than that i don't see sun working in this meta.

As for the creativity for dealing w Zacian + Caly, literally only eternamax can handle them both in 1 slot, and i covered what handles them up above.

As for the checks you labeled for Caly-G. All i see is a complete deadslot if you don't fight a Calyrex, and even if you do most of these can get Tricked and become more worthless than Current day Mewtwo. Incin only can switch into Necro in the entire tier otherwise and knock it for 40 and never do more again, besides give intimidate support. PLEASE don't tell me Zarude is good because it just isn't. I love my grass type losing to sub glare coil Zygod 1v1, its entirely free Zacian entry. Umbreon is asking to be tricked, Porygon-2 prays in the morning asking to be tricked, Galarian Moltres is absolutely terrible, do not come at me telling me to use a lite version of Mandibuzz, who spoilers; is Fisher Price Yveltal. You can look cool losing the game, hf w that.

And finally, the absolutely NUCLEAR take of Rayquaza in gen 4 being compared to Zacian. I genuinely spit of my pizza pop all over my desk reading this take. You could fuel 10 nuclear reactors with this take.

Anyway, let me talk bout this. 1st off, i explained why Excadrill is mid above, go read that. that's not even the biggest problem here. First off, your criminally underrating Zacian's variety here. Who says it needs SD or even behemoth blade actually. Play rough Close Combat Wild charge Assurance is imo the best set. You don't need Behemoth blade, especially since Xerneas drops to 1 play rough thanks to Fairy Aura. Assurance smashed Necro after rocks and removes Shed as a stopgap, Play rough decks Giratina praying to Hades to not be play rough and to hand it a wisp, and Zygarde is getting stomped. Wild charge invalidates Ho-oh after like 15% chip, and NOBODY will be caught using Pyukumuku anyway. This set alone covers every soft "check" this mon has/had on its own, and if it doesn't have this set it has like 8 other variants it can use. Agility, SD, Rest talk, any pick off 4 attacks, etc. Also on the topic of sun, i could see Solar blade being slapped on for fun to open way for another Physical Sweeper, or even your own Zacian, so that's another thing Zacian can do.

Btw half the mons you listed that are checks by NDM/Yveltal are mid. Caly-ice is mid, Mewtwo is TRASH, Lunala is decent defensively but even then its meh, i have not seen a single Solgaleo in 6 months of playing this tier, do not even give that mon the time of day. Lugia is above average but i rarely see it either, so i can't comment but ik it has a role. These 2 are truly only used the way they are rn because of Zacian and Caly-G, nobody would be caught using snarl yveltal if calyrex didnt exist and do not cap in my presence and say anyone would LMAO. Quagsire would see a pretty net 0.004% usage if zacian did not exist. And necrozma would be able to run literally any other set besides max max impish if it could.

These 2 mons chokeslam any ability to mess around with teams to any level on consistency, look at the guys builder up above to see that in 4k.

 

[LBN]

By the way, in case you guys were underestimating Zacian saying its easy to revenge kill, need i remind its bulkier than toxapex.

Calcs

Physical
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zacian-Crowned: 216-254 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Special
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 330-390 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 283-335 (93 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

IK ain't nobody using max max zacian, but the fact that it's got as much bulk as toxapex is completely absurd and makes me so angry looking at these calcs, I want to go Feral at these devs for making this mon . Better physical offensive spread than Deoxys-Attack counting ability, with better bulk than Toxapex, and the best typing in the game bar none, and a fantastic coverage movepool than has more options than Palkia.

Coverage Comparison

Zacian (Physical Only)
Fire - Fire Fang
Fairy - Play rough
Fighting - Sacred Sword/Close Combat
Steel - Behemoth Blade/Iron Head
Psychic - Psychic Fangs
Dark - Assurance/Crunch
Electric - Wild Charge
Ice - Ice Fang
Normal - Quick Attack
Grass - Solar Blade
Total: 10

Palkia (Specially)
Water - Surf/Hydro Pump
Dragon - Draco Meteor/Spacial Rend
Fire - Flamethrower/Fire blast
Electric - Thunder/Thunderbolt
Rock - Power Gem/Ancient Power
Ice - Ice Beam
Fighting - Aura Sphere/Focus Blast
Normal - Hyper Voice
Ground - Earth Power
Total: 9

I understand most of these will not all matter off paper, because nobody gonna use Hyper voice palkia or max max impish Zacian etc, this is more to show how statistically absurd this pokemon is.

 

[orch]

By the way, in case you guys were underestimating Zacian saying its easy to revenge kill, need i remind its bulkier than toxapex.

Calcs

Physical
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-210 (57.8 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zacian-Crowned: 216-254 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Special
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 330-390 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 283-335 (93 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

IK ain't nobody using max max zacian, but the fact that it's got as much bulk as toxapex is completely absurd and makes me so angry looking at these calcs, I want to go Feral at these devs for making this mon . Better physical offensive spread than Deoxys-Attack counting ability, with better bulk than Toxapex, and the best typing in the game bar none, and a fantastic coverage movepool than has more options than Palkia.

Coverage Comparison

Zacian (Physical Only)
Fire - Fire Fang
Fairy - Play rough
Fighting - Sacred Sword/Close Combat
Steel - Behemoth Blade/Iron Head
Psychic - Psychic Fangs
Dark - Assurance/Crunch
Electric - Wild Charge
Ice - Ice Fang
Normal - Quick Attack
Grass - Solar Blade
Total: 10

Palkia (Specially)
Water - Surf/Hydro Pump
Dragon - Draco Meteor/Spacial Rend
Fire - Flamethrower/Fire blast
Electric - Thunder/Thunderbolt
Rock - Power Gem/Ancient Power
Ice - Ice Beam
Fighting - Aura Sphere/Focus Blast
Normal - Hyper Voice
Ground - Earth Power
Total: 9

I understand most of these will not all matter off paper, because nobody gonna use Hyper voice palkia or max max impish Zacian etc, this is more to show how statistically absurd this pokemon is.

What's the point of this post? You freely acknowledge that the points that you're raising are absurd. Is it to whip up an emotional reaction to get the political ends that you want to happen? Can you simply say what you want rather than making pointless claims that you acknowledge as absurd?

 

[Cynara]

Nonsense

Please stop making these kind of posts, they add nowt to discussion.

Anyway to make this post less useless, the results from the ubers survey are in. What I find interesting from all this is the overwhelming opinion on Calyrex, though I share this sentiment, its surprising to see this much of a majority opinion on Caly, as Zacian can be seen as equally problematic or as much of a non issue (whatever your opinion is). I would also like to thank the council for listening to our posts and engaging with the community and letting their voices being heard.

 

[LBN]

Please stop making these kind of posts, they add nowt to discussion.

Ignoring calling what I said nonsense, the point of the post is to show how strong Zacian is as a Pokemon. I definitely could've used a better example, say; Mega Rayquaza as a comparison of natural bulk, but the point still stands that even in the stats Zacian doesn't focus on at all, it's still leagues above what other Pokemon with anything comparable to its offensive potential have to offer. Most pokemon with the qualities Zacian has they usually trade in exchange for the other corresponding area. Toxapex is incredibly bulky, but is very passive and slow as a result, while a pokemon like Deoxys-Attack has immense strength and speed, but is very frail as a result, or even being crippled in the movepool department like Regieleki. Zacian doesn't have these problems at all, with a fantastic movepool, bulk and offensive potential that puts anything we've seen prior to shame. The main idea if that post is to highlight this comparing it to some of the highest points of each of these categories.

Beyond this, mimicking the other part of Cya's message, i highly encourage everybody to atleast go take a look at the polling results, because I do feel it's best to look at it and see the thought process of everybody as an average of who took the survey, as not everybody who plays the tier posts here. I'm most certainly happy with the council responding the way they did, transparency goes along way and it's nice knowing you aren't shouting into an echo chamber.

If you want the link to the post it'll be in the spoiler just below here.

Link

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ubers-community-surveys.3674266/#post-8683529

 

[Icemaster]

(My opinion in this post is no indication of what will happen in the future and I only speak for myself not the entire council here)
Pretty surprised by the results of the survey, I feel like Zacian-C is a far more pressing issue and I personally hope that it is addressed first, but it is good to see that the vast majority of the playerbase are on the same page in that tiering action needs to take place - about 88% want Calyrex-S or Zacian-C to be dealt with. It's also good that a decent amount of the playerbase is open to evaluating whether one of Calyrex-S and Zacian-C still remains broken with the other removed - it might be the case that Zacian-C becomes more manageable once the teambuilding pressure of Calyrex-S is removed (or vice versa), and I think waiting to evaluate this in the event a first suspect happens is definitely ideal.

On to why I think Zacian-C is more pressing, it's just a much more common event for Zacian-C to defeat its checks than it is for Calyrex-S, which forces you to run multiple checks - like Necrozma-DM + revenge killer or Necrozma-DM + Ho-Oh, maybe throw a don or Zygarde on there too. Necrozma-DM is also forced to pick between Rocky-Helmet or Heavy-Duty Boots, and picking the "wrong item" is gonna make you lose out hugely to Assurance/SD Zacian respectively. Assurance often times puts you in the situation very very early game where you can't switch in your NDM to Zacian at all while SD forces a trade with NDM, and if you're not TWave then it just beats DM 1v1. While Quagsire works usually, it's just incredibly hard to fit. The fact that people are running Quagsire - which is far more situational compared with Yveltal I think speaks volumes to how much more restrictive Zacian-C is than Caly-S. Caly-S forces you to run SpDef Yveltal but not much more, and you can actually slightly vary your Yveltal sets to suit your team more (U-Turn/Koff or U-Turn/FPlay, Koff/Taunt, FPlay/Snarl, toxic/taunt in the last slot potentially if fog is covered already) while DM generally must run its EQ/T-Wave set - which makes it lose even harder to mons like GeoXern. SubSeed sets are good, but every competent team's Yveltal should beat them. Choiced Calyrex-S has Trick to break Yveltal, but this requires more turns to execute (trick, and then come in later one to three times to chip away at yveltal) which is important as Calyrex-S unlike Zacian-C get itself in as easily.