BP is uncompetitive in matchup terms, I'm not going to go explain this again, just read my 2-3 essays above.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 2 - Pass Out (Baton Pass Banned)
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
Been playing a bit of Ubers recently. I have to say that while the dynamax clause makes sense for balance reasons, banning arbitrary Pokemon from dynamaxing isn't coherent. Either ban dynamax or ban the individual Pokemon outright. Seems like you're just making up rulesets. (maybeee you could distinguish Gmax formes as distinct, since those are strictly definedand also conveniently limited to non-ubers by tier.)
Like kyub can dmax because it wasn't Uber??
Like kyub can dmax because it wasn't Uber??
I'm going to assume that you didn't read this https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ubers-stage-1-fools-gold.3661988/
I read that all. Don't assume brooo.
Like I said, the dynamax clause sets a desired power level in an easy to implement fashion, but it's no that much different from banning only the aspects of various Pokemon that are too strong. A lot of stuff in Ubers could be OU if we had a "no signature move clause". Too contrived for the sake of preserving arbitrary elements or pokemon. I don't think the current approach holds up, or will continue to hold up as more Pokemon are added.
In the end of day, all bans are arbitrary game element bans. Smogon thrives on the fact that tiering will always be messy and require political solutions to be constantly implemented for constant stream of content.
The purpose of tiering is to craft a tier that we would want to play as Ubers. I think that dynamax clause has been excellently implemented. It has enabled greater diversity and additional interesting strategies in SS Ubers.
i think scarf ray can rise in popularity to beat zacian-c
252+ Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 424-500 (130.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
we can start to see zacian-c and kyogre together, since ogre handles ray pretty well
252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 119-140 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and it also KOs ray back
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 524-620 (149.2 - 176.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 424-500 (130.4 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
we can start to see zacian-c and kyogre together, since ogre handles ray pretty well
252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 119-140 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and it also KOs ray back
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 524-620 (149.2 - 176.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
I believe theyre talking about when DLC2 comes out.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
idk about well
252+ Atk Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The Crown Tundra is coming in 2 weeks! Let's talk how things have been and what the council is thinking regarding the new metagame.
At the end of UPL we lost Hack, Reje, and Cynara and added Icemaster, TrueNora, Skysolo and TonyFlygon. Once they were added we started to discuss plans for the remainder of this DLC and figured that we should poll the tournament playerbase using a survey asking about their opinion on the meta and how they felt about Dynamax, with our primary thought being a full Dynamax test. The day that we finalized this survey... the Crown Tundra was announced for October 22nd, a month earlier than we expected. We suddenly didn't have the time to hold any sort of test or discussion and our Isle of Armor plans were effectively cancelled and all discussion was focused on the fast approaching DLC 2 metagame.
I want to go over the Dynamax Clause and how I felt it did. We knew from day 1 of implementing the clause that it was a temporary solution and would require different measures in DLC 2 when a massive amount of Ubers return to the metagame. Up to this point I think the idea was worth the attempt. The metagame has some very strong Dynamax users that could have been considered for action but the timing just didn't pan out, yet the metagame is still competitively playable and was enjoyed in UPL. I don't regret taking the higher risk higher reward option - reward being that more elements remained in the metagame. You are welcome to disagree with the results.
The problem with the Dynamax Clause is now going to be very apparent in DLC 2 - maintaining it. As it stands, a small number of Pokemon are on the list, some of which are comparatively weak and in a perfect world would have been tested for removal like Solgaleo. It doesn't include the new Dynamax terrors we are confirmed to get such as Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde.
The first thought may be to just get the council to agree on adding all the probable Dynamax nightmares to the clause immediately and work from there, but there are numerous issues with this.
Firstly, by automatically adding threats to the Dynamax Clause we are banning things without even seeing them in the metagame, which is poor tiering. Even Mega Rayquaza and the post-Home Dynamax Ubers had time in the metagame before action was taken because we had strong evidence and the community experienced it for themselves and overwhelmingly agreed. It might be fairly obvious that the new additions will cause problems, but drawing the line is impossible without seeing for ourselves. The other factor in this line of thinking is that if we waited and watched how the new additions fared in the metagame first while keeping the clause intact, we would have Yveltal and Xerneas free to use Dynamax but Solgaleo couldn't do it. It doesn't take much thinking to see how silly that is.
Secondly, there are so many potential threats that Dynamax can turn into terrors even outside of Ubers. Dynamax on some returning lower tier threats could be just as threatening - Landorus-T for example. Even now we wondered if the common Dynamax users deserved action, and that would have to be considered in a theoretical DLC 2 clause sweep as well. There are too many threats in theory to be sure, and any that escape the initial wave would likely need suspect tests to be added meaning a massive number of suspect tests. Ubers shouldn't be the metagame that does non stop testing. It's a sign of an administrative mistake if Ubers is doing more suspect tests than any other Smogon tier for the sake of competitive integrity. It would be better to do a "big" test than lots of small ones, which is to say, it would be better to test Dynamax entirely than constantly iterate on an idea that is no longer fit for purpose.
We considered clearing the clause of mons and making another list of mons as a council after some time into DLC 2 similarly to the Home strategy, but when the above arguments are all considered and the community restlessness about the Dynamax Clause leading up to this point, we decided it isn't the best play.
What I'm getting at here is that at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame, we will be disabling the Dynamax Clause and suspect testing Dynamax as a whole soon after. This cuts all the questions down into one - is Dynamax too much for Ubers as a mechanic given the strength of so many different users? We are about to reach the point where we are bending too much for the sake of a mechanic that causes us no end of headaches. DLC 2 is the perfect opportunity to put all the cards on the table and decisively figure out if Dynamax is worth keeping in the tier.
What do you think?
At the end of UPL we lost Hack, Reje, and Cynara and added Icemaster, TrueNora, Skysolo and TonyFlygon. Once they were added we started to discuss plans for the remainder of this DLC and figured that we should poll the tournament playerbase using a survey asking about their opinion on the meta and how they felt about Dynamax, with our primary thought being a full Dynamax test. The day that we finalized this survey... the Crown Tundra was announced for October 22nd, a month earlier than we expected. We suddenly didn't have the time to hold any sort of test or discussion and our Isle of Armor plans were effectively cancelled and all discussion was focused on the fast approaching DLC 2 metagame.
I want to go over the Dynamax Clause and how I felt it did. We knew from day 1 of implementing the clause that it was a temporary solution and would require different measures in DLC 2 when a massive amount of Ubers return to the metagame. Up to this point I think the idea was worth the attempt. The metagame has some very strong Dynamax users that could have been considered for action but the timing just didn't pan out, yet the metagame is still competitively playable and was enjoyed in UPL. I don't regret taking the higher risk higher reward option - reward being that more elements remained in the metagame. You are welcome to disagree with the results.
The problem with the Dynamax Clause is now going to be very apparent in DLC 2 - maintaining it. As it stands, a small number of Pokemon are on the list, some of which are comparatively weak and in a perfect world would have been tested for removal like Solgaleo. It doesn't include the new Dynamax terrors we are confirmed to get such as Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde.
The first thought may be to just get the council to agree on adding all the probable Dynamax nightmares to the clause immediately and work from there, but there are numerous issues with this.
Firstly, by automatically adding threats to the Dynamax Clause we are banning things without even seeing them in the metagame, which is poor tiering. Even Mega Rayquaza and the post-Home Dynamax Ubers had time in the metagame before action was taken because we had strong evidence and the community experienced it for themselves and overwhelmingly agreed. It might be fairly obvious that the new additions will cause problems, but drawing the line is impossible without seeing for ourselves. The other factor in this line of thinking is that if we waited and watched how the new additions fared in the metagame first while keeping the clause intact, we would have Yveltal and Xerneas free to use Dynamax but Solgaleo couldn't do it. It doesn't take much thinking to see how silly that is.
Secondly, there are so many potential threats that Dynamax can turn into terrors even outside of Ubers. Dynamax on some returning lower tier threats could be just as threatening - Landorus-T for example. Even now we wondered if the common Dynamax users deserved action, and that would have to be considered in a theoretical DLC 2 clause sweep as well. There are too many threats in theory to be sure, and any that escape the initial wave would likely need suspect tests to be added meaning a massive number of suspect tests. Ubers shouldn't be the metagame that does non stop testing. It's a sign of an administrative mistake if Ubers is doing more suspect tests than any other Smogon tier for the sake of competitive integrity. It would be better to do a "big" test than lots of small ones, which is to say, it would be better to test Dynamax entirely than constantly iterate on an idea that is no longer fit for purpose.
We considered clearing the clause of mons and making another list of mons as a council after some time into DLC 2 similarly to the Home strategy, but when the above arguments are all considered and the community restlessness about the Dynamax Clause leading up to this point, we decided it isn't the best play.
What I'm getting at here is that at the start of the Crown Tundra metagame, we will be disabling the Dynamax Clause and suspect testing Dynamax as a whole soon after. This cuts all the questions down into one - is Dynamax too much for Ubers as a mechanic given the strength of so many different users? We are about to reach the point where we are bending too much for the sake of a mechanic that causes us no end of headaches. DLC 2 is the perfect opportunity to put all the cards on the table and decisively figure out if Dynamax is worth keeping in the tier.
What do you think?
Thank God it's being finally freed. I was afraid it would be banned from the start or some wack blacklist. Time to have some fun before it gets banned.
Yes test Dynamax please. Either have it full or remove it entirely for Ubers.
:happy:
Just remove Dynamax from exist. Look at Nat Dex AG, where some pokemon are just uncounterable due to Dynamax. Imagine that, but with much less pokemon to potentially counter with. Get rid of dynamax
In my eyes, Dynamax unrestricted is easily the most busted thing ive ever seen ya'll try to do and i cannot wait to use Dynamax Rayquaza, Xerneas, Yveltal, and any other flying type tbhh. This is going to be nothing but pure unbriddled chaos and i cannot wait. It will bring a smile to my face everytime i send out my xerneas and auto win vs everything non ditto.
In my eyes, dynamax is a broken mechanic and needs to be limited in some fashion. The main issue is its broken on so many things, even beyond ubers like lando-t, torn-t/torn-i, kartana, Pheramosa, God Shift gear dmax genesect etc. And it would be somewhat annoying to keep in track, but it is possible, just not optimal. If you say, tested Pokemon in batches or held council votes a week after planning and hearing ppl's thoughts like we are in BW ubers double team (get it out btw) Testing say, a ban on landorus-t, tornadus forms, defiant thundurus, and kabutops/drednaw, while testing an unban on say solgaleo, lugia and other mediocore ubers that nobody uses unless their new. (not saying lugia is mediocore) and doing it like that, while doing things like stupid boxarts first. This is probably the best way the banlist method would stay in effect, and still be practical enough. As for the pain in updating it every now and then, but then again it can still be done.
Without following this method, i support a complete dynamax removal because i am NOT dealing with ditto on every team ruining my fun breaking the tier. I really wish i had the chance to use shift gear dmax genesect without dealing w the broken ones and having fun but alas, no chance at Genesect fun.
In my eyes, dynamax is a broken mechanic and needs to be limited in some fashion. The main issue is its broken on so many things, even beyond ubers like lando-t, torn-t/torn-i, kartana, Pheramosa, God Shift gear dmax genesect etc. And it would be somewhat annoying to keep in track, but it is possible, just not optimal. If you say, tested Pokemon in batches or held council votes a week after planning and hearing ppl's thoughts like we are in BW ubers double team (get it out btw) Testing say, a ban on landorus-t, tornadus forms, defiant thundurus, and kabutops/drednaw, while testing an unban on say solgaleo, lugia and other mediocore ubers that nobody uses unless their new. (not saying lugia is mediocore) and doing it like that, while doing things like stupid boxarts first. This is probably the best way the banlist method would stay in effect, and still be practical enough. As for the pain in updating it every now and then, but then again it can still be done.
Without following this method, i support a complete dynamax removal because i am NOT dealing with ditto on every team ruining my fun breaking the tier. I really wish i had the chance to use shift gear dmax genesect without dealing w the broken ones and having fun but alas, no chance at Genesect fun.
I find the Dynamax ban as it exists currently really inelegant. I mean, look at the viability rankings at the moment -- half of the top ranks are a who's who of OU Pokémon that are good with Dynamax (the well-populated A rank only contains one thing that is Uber by tiering), with many of the actual ubers languishing behind primarily on the basis of the Dynamax restriction being used as a way to "power level errata" individual Pokémon.
When it gets to the point that we're likely to have around 30 Pokémon being house-nerfed in this way, and the top ranks are mostly "things which are powerful with Dynamax but fall just on the right side of a subjective judgement about being house-nerfed" (likely OU or barely-Uber legendaries, currently includes Kyurem-B), I really think the mechanic should be banned entirely. We still have AG for people who want to make their Pokémon into massive dumb nukes.
When it gets to the point that we're likely to have around 30 Pokémon being house-nerfed in this way, and the top ranks are mostly "things which are powerful with Dynamax but fall just on the right side of a subjective judgement about being house-nerfed" (likely OU or barely-Uber legendaries, currently includes Kyurem-B), I really think the mechanic should be banned entirely. We still have AG for people who want to make their Pokémon into massive dumb nukes.
- Status