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I have to agree that Melmetal has a net-more-difficult effect for offense teams to take out balance.
But I also think the discussion shows that banning Mel would only be a first step in many steps that need to be taken to improve the meta past this unhealthy stally-ish feeling.
As shown by Tapeworm, there's quite a variety of breakers. I might add "sun team" to that list that may also use venu, cinderace, and even charizard to break through the common cores.
On one hand, I say that people are dis-incentivized from using these less-used breakers, because they often fail at preventing their team from dying to the top breakers that take the 2 slots on balances. They cannot soft check these top breakers including Melmetal, Vish, Kyurem, and thus these less-used breakers don't get turns to come in and do their thing. So it seems that further steps need to be taken vs top offense, post melmetal-suspect.
On the other hand, the 3-mon defensive core is just too good in all the things they offer (along with the new HDB item).
Even if top breakers are banned and these lower breakers have breathing room, these teams could fill their other 3 slots and clef-pex-corv could still easily adapt to these other breakers IMO.
I mean just look at their obvious details that cannot be overstated: 3 recovery mons that can go either way defensively, including a steel defogger with acceptable offense and u-turn, a water regenerator with tspikes and haze, and a tele-wish fairy that has other potential with a massive movepool. And Clef and Corv can still afford offensive options to clean teams, while even Pex can run Knock Off to not be totally passive.
To me, these offerings together are almost like a Lugia or a Giratina level of behemoth defense.
And then if you get rid of the top offense mons, now these defensive cores can afford more options in their move slots and become more cancerous (like Pex wouldn't need BB if Vish is gone)
To me a solution for the source and not just the symptoms should include both greatly nerfing offense and defense. And such a dramatic solution is still much better than keeping Melmetal and doing nothing else apart from that.
most of them can be deal with only the top 3, except for specs kyurem, life orb zeraora, and the rare specs Aeigslash. Dracovish can break trough them but toad mere presence means it won't spam fishious rend and without it dracovish is a mediocre RU-tier wallbreaker. I'm just talking about 3 pokemon just 3 pokemon. Now if you take into account the other defensive mons in this list and ditto. And you really can't say to me that the current metagame doesn't lack wallbreakers. Only a dishonest stallhead would say it.
Altho i'll admit that melmetal is going to help this core more than it will counter. Leaving us with no much option other than wait til DLC comes out.
I think you make some good points about how wallbreaking is more difficult this gen.
I just gotta point out first that your wording seems to be somewhat implied aggressiveness, maybe tone it down a bit?
Also my main point is that from what I've seen in his other threads, TheOtherGuyTM does not seem like a stallhead at all.
In the recent past, he's contributed a lot of creative yet viable offense that gives players like me tools to break traditional defense cores.
So that's at least ten of the top nineteen (discounting Duggy), plus offensive sets of another 4. Satisfied? (BTW, full stall is not even close to viable lol, when was the last time you saw an Unaware mon being used unironically, and don't say Clef, because anyone with brains in this meta runs Magic Guard.)
Btw, 1. Usage stats are terrible (you see those stats still have Ditto in the top 20 who has been garbage ever since Dyna got banned and are missing Terrakion and Gengar XD).
2. The main issue is that all those viable other breakers exist and can rip these cores to shreds. Name some underused and viable walls. Snorlax (and that's still mostly an offensive mon) and niche Water Absorbers like Gastrodon. That's it. That is the entirety of the walls you may select from and have the slightest chance of beating a decent player. It really is not hard to prepare your team for these cores, because there's literally nothing else your opponent may choose from.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
As a loyal servant of LORD VISH, lol, no. Vish's mere presence forces defensive teams to play basically a mon down to check it. Vish is nuts and the only way to deal with it is to lose to teams that pass on prep for it.
It’s insane to me how anyone would ever say this is a stall-centered metagame. Stall is basically dead since the start of the gen, and we might not even see it come back with chansey’s readdiction during Summer.
We currently have a plethora of slightly different BALANCE teams that abuse the few defensive viable mons in order to somewhat check everything. The amount of potential breakers in the tier, including ridiculous statuppers, is at an all-time high, and people are trying to fend them off at the best of their capabilities.
Adding Melmetal would just be stupid from this point of view, because you’d just exacerbate the meta even further into passive balanceness.
managed to get my reqs because I found a bit of spare time now that 7 days a week is mashed into one goopy mess.
honestly? im not completely sold on how melmetal will overcentralize or make the meta unplayable and whatnot cause if anything im beginning to feel that wishport clef is the issue?
altho I do have to agree that melmetal is capable of linearizing games by a large margin and being able to invalidate HO is quite a nonsensical feat considering this meta is already painful balanced, with every game going to 100+ turns. I didn’t rlly play much against melmetal unfort but I got lazy and just laddered with an old balance team I built prior to duggy’s departure and I didn’t feel like it rlly made a huge impact? whenever I used melmetal it was pretty much to come in, press DIB or whatever, chip opponent, switch into sponge / turner, then continuously pressuring opponent like this and this ends up turning balance games into a “who can preserve DIB pp the best” mirrors.
a lot of people complain about melmetal because it’s easier to view it from a vacuum but in reality the games played are seriously just a team of 4-5 solid mons supporting a very strong and decently easy to play wincon. I think a lot more time is needed for melmetal to truly show its impact on the metagame. however what I don’t feel comfortable is the incredible power of the kyurem melmetal core combined with speed control. If there’s any reason that I would want to keep melmetal banner it would because that core in itself is able to perfectly complement each other and allow for very smooth dismantling of opposing balance teams.
overall, there’s still a bit more time before the suspect concludes and since I alr got mah reqs I figure I’ll go play more with melmetal then make a decision on the unbanning.
I know this has been said and alluded to earlier, but it feels that a common sentiment from pro-unban people is that even if Melmetal might be kinda nutty and possibly busted on its own, the OU meta right now is stale and has enough un-fun stuff that Melmetal just slots into it and at least changes it from the existing staleness to something different. And yes I know that a balanced/fair metagame doesn't necessarily mean it's a FUN metagame, but still.
And yea I think that this is an issue inherent to SWSH's limited pool of Pokemon with some clear meta-defining Pokemon (Clefable, Corviknight, etc.)
Melmetal IMO is very strong (nobody disputes that) and potentially overbearing, but here's the thing-even if Melmetal ends up being a very centralizing factor, not only is it at least a change of pace from the same stale stuff we've had, but also the upcoming DLC means that if Melmetal is ultra-busted, the meta won't be stuck with it and stagnate for too long. So IMO there's not much risk unbanning it since soon enough there will potentially be a big shakeup anyways. If Melmetal's still busted after the first DLC stuff comes, we can look at it (and likely other things) then.
I know this has been said and alluded to earlier, but it feels that a common sentiment from pro-unban people is that even if Melmetal might be kinda nutty and possibly busted on its own, the OU meta right now is stale and has enough un-fun stuff that Melmetal just slots into it and at least changes it from the existing staleness to something different. And yes I know that a balanced/fair metagame doesn't necessarily mean it's a FUN metagame, but still.
And yea I think that this is an issue inherent to SWSH's limited pool of Pokemon with some clear meta-defining Pokemon (Clefable, Corviknight, etc.)
Melmetal IMO is very strong (nobody disputes that) and potentially overbearing, but here's the thing-even if Melmetal ends up being a very centralizing factor, not only is it at least a change of pace from the same stale stuff we've had, but also the upcoming DLC means that if Melmetal is ultra-busted, the meta won't be stuck with it and stagnate for too long. So IMO there's not much risk unbanning it since soon enough there will potentially be a big shakeup anyways. If Melmetal's still busted after the first DLC stuff comes, we can look at it (and likely other things) then.
why are you purposely choosing to waste time over this already incredibly huge time waste, we already know it's broken, and are just doing this performance for some reason. I know quarantine is bad but jesus this is just a huge waste of time to suspect this now when there's dlc coming. And to your point it's made teams much worse, it's just the same standard 4-5 mon garbage with melmetal slapped to it; that's it. 0 shaking up whatsoever.
why are you purposely choosing to waste time over this already incredibly huge time waste, we already know it's broken, and are just doing this performance for some reason. I know quarantine is bad but jesus this is just a huge waste of time to suspect this now when there's dlc coming. And to your point it's made teams much worse, it's just the same standard 4-5 mon garbage with melmetal slapped to it; that's it. 0 shaking up whatsoever.
Mel isn't even that good. People went too crazy too early. (as always) And I've told them to keep calm and do the playtesting.
And here is where we are now:
-mel always runs double iron bash (DIB), no matter the set.
-the rest of the moves can be: EQ, Superpower, Darkest Lariat, Thunder Punch, Rock Slide, Facade. All legit options.
-cb mel is the most used mel set, for its offensive potential.
-scarf mel (274 Speed), meanwhile not beeing able to break, can outspeed and Ohko middle-speed mons like Clef (LO Fire Blast) or Bisharp (Defiant Low Kick), and is good for a surprise, but it does not compare to what a cb mel can do. You get a 2x 30% flinch chance on the DIB, more speed certainly helps with the flinchhax.
Melmetal is a tiger made of paper, high stats, looks dangerous, but it actually plays out differently in the meta.
It gets somewhat served by the following 3 Top20 mons that are beeing used either way, no matter if Melmetal is in the tier or not:
-Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn
Which is the ideal switch in for DIB, with Barbs and Helmet, Melmetal will just destroy itsself and take like 70%-ish punishment damage.
If it hits again, it will kill itself. If it switches out, you're open to get punished with a knock off/twave/gyroball. The only way mel can really threaten Ferro is with Superpower, and you'll need a perfect prediction to land that, and not get baited into a ghost type like Dragapult, which will again open you up for punishment if you are choice-locked into fighting against a ghost type and have to switch out.
-Rocky Helmet Corviknight
Usually, Corvi runs Leftovers. A small adaption due to Mel, Helmet Corvi is also a viable option against anything else. It has roost, which is enough healing power against most physical attackers. Beeing faster than mel will mean you'll loose the flying type induced weakness to electric moves on a Roost, speaking of Thunder Punch, while punishing with Helmet and finishing the job with a Body Press if needs be.
I have to add that most Thunder Punch calcs against Corvi are presented as super-effective because they don't calc in the Roost. Don't be fooled by people doing that.
-Leftovers Seismitoad
is a 3hko for DIB and Superpower (which lowers the users attack, if I have to remind you), which is bulky enough for Toad to kill Mel with 2x Earth Power. You can switch in Toad, it tanks the hit, recovers due to Leftovers, and then you can either use Protect to midigate the 2,7% chance of a DIB 2hko (thats why I wrote 3hko above - the chance is to low to be reliable) or directly counterattack with Earth Power, that 2hkos Mel. It's propably the most reliable counter against Mel.
On top of that, cb mel is insanely slow and dies quickly to any strong and effective special attack, despite it's high base HP, making it easy to revenge-kill. A common scenario is that when Mel gets a kill, it is threatened to get revenge-killed and thus forced to switch out, which lets your opponents set up a sub/boost and wreck havoc on your team. Mel is somewhat predictable, people know what it does, people found ways around it without bringing in mons from other metas.
All of that summarized, I'd give Melmetal an A-/B+ for viability in the current meta.
It does a good job of putting on the much needed pressure in a semi-stall meta. (i mean we got some offense, but also ClefCorv with TP heals, Ferro and Pex and Toad and other nasty Bulk that is difficult to break) But it's not over-the-top good or even somewhere near S-Rank.
Mel isn't even that good. People went too crazy too early. (as always) And I've told them to keep calm and do the playtesting.
And here is where we are now:
-mel always runs double iron bash (DIB), no matter the set.
-the rest of the moves can be: EQ, Superpower, Darkest Lariat, Thunder Punch, Rock Slide, Facade. All legit options.
-cb mel is the most used mel set, for its offensive potential.
-scarf mel (274 Speed), meanwhile not beeing able to break, can outspeed and Ohko middle-speed mons like Clef (LO Fire Blast) or Bisharp (Defiant Low Kick), and is good for a surprise, but it does not compare to what a cb mel can do. You get a 2x 30% flinch chance on the DIB, more speed certainly helps with the flinchhax.
Melmetal is a tiger made of paper, high stats, looks dangerous, but it actually plays out differently in the meta.
It gets somewhat served by the following 3 Top20 mons that are beeing used either way, no matter if Melmetal is in the tier or not:
-Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn
Which is the ideal switch in for DIB, with Barbs and Helmet, Melmetal will just destroy itsself and take like 70%-ish punishment damage.
If it hits again, it will kill itself. If it switches out, you're open to get punished with a knock off/twave/gyroball. The only way mel can really threaten Ferro is with Superpower, and you'll need a perfect prediction to land that, and not get baited into a ghost type like Dragapult, which will again open you up for punishment if you are choice-locked into fighting against a ghost type and have to switch out.
-Rocky Helmet Corviknight
Usually, Corvi runs Leftovers. A small adaption due to Mel, Helmet Corvi is also a viable option against anything else. It has roost, which is enough healing power against most physical attackers. Beeing faster than mel will mean you'll loose the flying type induced weakness to electric moves on a Roost, speaking of Thunder Punch, while punishing with Helmet and finishing the job with a Body Press if needs be.
I have to add that most Thunder Punch calcs against Corvi are presented as super-effective because they don't calc in the Roost. Don't be fooled by people doing that.
-Leftovers Seismitoad
is a 3hko for DIB and Superpower (which lowers the users attack, if I have to remind you), which is bulky enough for Toad to kill Mel with 2x Earth Power. You can switch in Toad, it tanks the hit, recovers due to Leftovers, and then you can either use Protect to midigate the 2,7% chance of a DIB 2hko (thats why I wrote 3hko above - the chance is to low to be reliable) or directly counterattack with Earth Power, that 2hkos Mel. It's propably the most reliable counter against Mel.
On top of that, cb mel is insanely slow and dies quickly to any strong and effective special attack, despite it's high base HP, making it easy to revenge-kill. A common scenario is that when Mel gets a kill, it is threatened to get revenge-killed and thus forced to switch out, which lets your opponents set up a sub/boost and wreck havoc on your team. Mel is somewhat predictable, people know what it does, people found ways around it without bringing in mons from other metas.
All of that summarized, I'd give Melmetal an A-/B+ for viability in the current meta.
It does a good job of putting on the much needed pressure in a semi-stall meta. (i mean we got some offense, but also ClefCorv with TP heals, Ferro and Pex and Toad and other nasty Bulk that is difficult to break) But it's not over-the-top good or even somewhere near S-Rank.
Before some says you can simply wish pass to Melmetal to negate rocky helmet, iron barbs, earth power damage. You can also wish pass to Ferro, Corv and toad to keep them healthy. And DIB and SP only have 8 pp.
I think the consensus is pretty clear that mel is way better vs conventional HO than it is vs conventional balance. Balance cores are already using natural "checks" like rotom-h, hippo, ferro, corv, pex, toad etc. It's not hard to run multiple of these, and it's not a huge loss to run helmet on a few of them. The amount of "adaptation" balance has to do is actually not that much. In return, balance gets to use mel itself, which GREATLY improves its HO matchup. Conventional HO uses a lot of bisharp, zeraora, hawlucha, cloyster, dd dragapult, mimikyu, etc and all of this gets blown to hell and back by melmetal. The amount of "adaptation" HO has to do is very high, they need to pivot to using sweepers that aren't boned by mel like clangorous soul kommo-o, double dance necrozma, and..idk? It also doesn't use mel all that well, at least for now. And since HO and balance are the best two playstyles rn, mel shifts the balance.
I think the first big fact you need to understand about gen8 ou rn is that wish teleport clef balance runs the meta. HO was the only real viable escape from that, every other team just benefits and uses this set so damn much. If you want to stay competitive you practically have to run this mon on any slightly fat team. It is easily the best and most consistent playstyle in the game rn. You could argue that mel is being tested right now because the meta has started to plateau and grow stale, and that maybe mel could be the big fat wallbreaker that could punish both HO and wish tele clef balance.
The problem is, as we've figured out by now, is that mel punishes HO and beautifully fits into wish tele clef balance, thus hugely improving wish tele clef balance and nerfing HO.
I think these balance teams are stronger than ever now that they have a big fat anti-HO sponge. And if we're trying to improve the metagame, we're trying to make playstyles besides wish tele clef balance more viable. Unbanning melmetal would have the opposite effect. HO would become much worse for a while, until it figured out how to get around mel effectively. Until then, we'd just have wish tele clef balance all fuckin day long, and that's the whole problem. That's why this gen is boring and sucks ass. If you want the meta to improve, you want to find ways to hamper balance right now, not support it. Unbanning mel would only support it.
The meta really does just boil down to pick 1-2 breakers with no real answers (aegi, vish, zera, hydra, kyu, etc) then surround it with 4 fat mons, keep ur breaker healthy with wish tele clef, and try to get ur breaker in and predict correctly more than the opposition. It's incredibly stale.
As such, I'll be voting to keep melmetal banned when I qualify. Not because its necessarily broken (breaking news its pretty stupid), but because it just reinforces the already best playstyle rn and makes the meta worse.
When we decided to retest Melmetal, I initially assumed it would be banned with an overwhelming majority; while the retest was not necessarily a throwaway, it was done more so as an act of due diligence than as a calculated tiering decision.
There were numerous potential suspects brought to our attention in recent weeks such as Kyurem, Dracovish, and Teleport Clefable, but we were not ready to act on any of these at this point in time. This coupled with our consistent belief that we should give Melmetal a fair test in the metagame, seeing as it was only in the tier for a day (a hectic, post-home release day, too), led to this being the perfect opportunity to give it a retest.
I was pretty quick to dismiss this retest as an easy ban vote initially after seeing some crazy damage calcs like Choice Band Double Iron Bash having a shot to kill full health Excadrill, Toxtricity, Crawdaunt, and Cinderace despite the resistance; this level of strength on something so physically sturdy surely could not be balanced, right?
Then, I saw some earlier posts in this thread such as Leo's post here and I decided to give Melmetal a fair shot before ultimately deciding on my vote. Even at this point, I was still confident that I would vote ban, but I built some teams with various sets and I laddered to reqs (and then well beyond that) with all of them and facing many opposing Melmetal until I felt that I had a sufficient grasp on Melmetal and the metagame surrounding it. After all of this, I changed my mind: I will be voting to unban Melmetal and this post will outline why.
I tried out four Melmetal sets, but only two of them are really worth highlight here due to popularity and effectiveness. The four sets are Choice Band, Acid Armor + Body Press, Protective Pads attacker, and Toxic + Leftovers. The former two sets are the most common, with Choice Band being the most controversial of the bunch, but the latter two definitely have niche. I am going to go through each set, explaining how it is used, how effective I feel it is in the context of the metagame, and showcasing some of my personal experiences with it (you can find almost all of my battles under "OUTJosh" as I saved replays for every battle and I also uploaded videos of all of my laddering, which goes well beyond the 40 games for reqs). Then, I will draw some final conclusions at the end of my post.
Choice Band Melmetal
@ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 348-410 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 344-408 (83.6 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 286-338 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 352-416 (85.6 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Melmetal: 294-346 (71.5 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 314-372 (76.3 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Speed for Hippowdon. Earthquake is for a lot of midgrounds and even more damage against Toxapex and Aegislash, which I prefer over Rock Slide as Superpower clocks Rotom-Heat and Thunder Punch hits most flying types.
Choice Band Melmetal is arguably the best set; it deals out lots of damage with plenty of coverage to hit common resists as well. The main issues are that it is quite prediction reliant. Double Iron Bash is limited to 8 PP in a metagame with a common Pressure user and plenty of Protect (or Baneful Bunker); couple this with Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs being triggered twice upon usage and you get a pretty limited Pokemon. Choice Band Melmetal has unmatched upside, almost assuring kills if it gets off unresisted Double Iron Bashes and getting consistent 2HKOs with super effective coverage moves. I understand why someone would pencil it in as banworthy due to the sheet strength it possesses, but I think that in practice it is far less consistent and oftentimes kept in check by already common Pokemon and cores. Let's go through some of my games with it so I can explain this thought process a bit more.
Both Melmetals were kept in check for a majority of the game. Finally, Thunder Wave slowing down an offensive Clefable gave me an opportunity to use mine briefly to revenge kill Clefable, but my opponent's Melmetal was kept in check easily by Corviknight + Protect Clefable despite losing my Seismitoad prematurely. I think this highlights how pretty common cores can keep a choice locked Melmetal in check despite the strength of boosted Double Iron Bash and the coverage possibilities.
One of the big things about Melmetal being added to the tier is that it is supposed to invalidate hyper offense due to the bulk and ability to KO common win conditions used on these teams. The defensive Acid Armor set, which we will get to later, is able to do that, but the Choice Band set is a lot more limited as it not only locks into a move, potentially giving things set-up opportunities, but it also loses a lot of physical bulk, which lets boosted Pokemon like Zeraora, Bisharp, Aegislash, or Excadrill take it out with little-to-no chip. In this game, a +1 Zeraora is able to take it out when I was hoping to tank a hit and take out the Zeraora. Choice Band Melmetal should usually be able to carry its weight against these teams regardless, but I do not view it as a full stop or counter to them like the other set I alluded to, which is limiting.
Melmetal makes a lot of progress in the early game due to the opponent giving it free turns and some timely positioning, which is oftentimes doable. The sheer power of being able to OHKO a bulky Conkeldurr is quite impressive and opened up the game as well, but the team faced here seems pretty unprepared for a lot of the metagame defensively.
If my opponent did not misplay pretty badly by going Hippowdon, then Melmetal would have done very little in this game due to the built-in longevity of this team coupled with residual damage from Rocky Helmet, the chip it takes to switch in, and various Protect users or pivots. Thankfully, he went to Hippowdon despite a faster Corviknight being at full, but even this sequence led to me essentially trading with Hippowdon due to Rocky Helmet damage being massive. It's also worth noting that a lot of these teams manage to fit in Ferrothorn or Rotom-Heat, which also slow the progress of Melmetal quite a bit; this team instead had a Hatterene, which opened the game up even more for Melmetal. Ultimately, my point is that Choice Band Melmetal tends to struggle against the most common types of balance right now due to there being lots of natural checks and plenty of ways to take advantage of it being Choice Banded.
The team I am facing here is also sort of standard, but it plays a bit more faster pace than the balances I discussed last game. Melmetal was able to get in a few times and dish out damage, but between early Knock Off Toxapex and a sturdy Hippowdon, it was only able to make some progress -- a lot of the progress was Regenerated off of Toxapex without much hesitation. This progress was also only possible due to numerous Wishes being passed to Melmetal, greatly slowing the chances of making progress through other means. I think this shows that Melmetal will be one of the more important and common Pokemon in the metagame if it stays, but it also is not the easiest to use this set as it requires prediction and sometimes can be hard stopped no matter what you do (thanks to Rocky Helmet, Protect, Corviknight, etc.). Against teams not super prepared for it, which are not too common due to the depth of common checks to it, it will be able to make progress, but it still has to stay healthy due to it being relatively slow and because of this it will require Wish support, which is the norm in this metagame anyway so that's no big deal. However, I do not think this really screams "broken" to me given how mixed the results were and how much counterplay I identify within the metagame, even if some is situational.
Good teammates for CB Melmetal:
& : Both of these appreciate Melmetal putting a strain on common Ground types like Seismitoad and Hippowdon; Zeraora also appreciates the damage done onto Ferrothorn in order to put it into Close Combat range in order to avoid taking a Body Press or Knock Off. In addition, both of these Pokemon take advantage of Corviknight, which Melmetal appreciates. If released into the tier officially, I can see Melmetal being paired with them often. With this said, I do not find this synergy to be overly oppressive at all.
: This should go for most offensive Pokemon in the tier as they appreciate the pivot, but this is especially the case for Melmetal as they compliment each other quite well. First off, Melmetal is constantly taking physical hits that leave it low, so getting a Wish passed from a Teleport is great. Top this off with Clefable being specially defensive more often than not, letting it sponge the special hits Melmetal cannot, and you get an even better dynamic between the two. This is not all, however. Clefable tends to lure in Steel types that Melmetal can feast on with a boosted Superpower or Earthquake if need be. In the replays above, you saw a lot of this happening as well as passing numerous Wishes to Melmetal. I think this combination is honestly what could push some people over the edge to it being banworthy, but I think there is still a lot of counterplay considering how common Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and Whirlwind Hippowdon are right now. This is not even saying they are the only counterplay right now, but they all are very common regardless and do the trick, which is important.
: This one is a bit more team specific than the ones above, but I find Hydreigon fitting on to most of my Choice Band Melmetal builds. The Choice Scarf set always baits in things that are crushed by it, making an easy U-turn give Melmetal openings. The Choice Scarf set can also fit Thunder Wave in the fourth slot, which could potentially open things up for Melmetal in the long haul as well. In addition, the Nasty Plot set pretty much feasts on all of the normal checks and counters to Melmetal, especially if it is able to fit Flamethrower. That is more basic synergy than the ones listed above, but I still love pairing them to create a potent offensive backbone to balance teams.
In conclusion, I view Choice Band Melmetal as really good. It is able to threaten entire teams a lot of the time, but I do not think it is broken. There are a number of natural checks to it (Corviknight and Rotom-Heat) coupled with gameflow preventing it from making progress due to prediction reliance, PP limitations on Double Iron Bash, consistent chip, Protect stopping it almost entirely, and it being quite slow. Melmetal is going to be one of the better Pokemon in the metagame, probably falling into the A+ tier in viability rankings if dropped, and the root of that viability can be found from this set, but I do not think that it is enough to push it over the edge for me.
---
Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal
@ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Double Iron Bash
- Body Press
- Acid Armor
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 188-224 (39.7 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 198-234 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 380-450 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 302-356 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 326-386 (68.9 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 90-110 (19 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 228-268 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Speed is just creep. It really likes paralysis support and something to remove Toxapex, cripple Rotom-Heat, and take care of Bulk Up Corviknight among other things.
Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal was seen as perhaps the most broken set from the initial theorymon before Home was released and it did not disappoint initially; people regard Choice Band as more consistent now and this is true, but Acid Armor + Body Press has a lot of potential to outright win games against unprepared teams. Toxapex, Rotom-Heat, Earth Power Seismitoad, Bulk Up Corviknight, Whirlwind Hippowdon, Chandelure, Gastrodon, and a small handful of other Pokemon are able to dispose of this set otherwise, but otherwise teams are pretty much forced to rely on their choice of strong special attacker to break it, if they can get it in safely. I would say that is a sufficient pool of Pokemon, especially when you couple in general pressure from the special side, but against unprepared teams, this set truly is one of the most unforgiving things in the entire metagame. I used a team that was not the most serious with this set, featuring both Clefable and Clefairy, but it went 38-2 on the ladder and it was paired with Block Spite Toxapex to remove opposing Toxapex and some specific special attackers that were problematic, so I would say it highlighted the set quite well.
Games with Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal and how it did:
As I said before, this is the set that truly invalidates physically oriented hyper offense. The sheer bulk coupled with a boosted Body Press and Double Iron Bash is far too much for them to take care of. Oftentimes, it outright sweeps these teams if they do not have a Nasty Plot Rotom or some type of lure, which they tend to lack (perhaps they will adapt). I would say that if you are going to argue this set is broken, it would be on this basis as it struggles against other archetypes relatively -- it is still a good Pokemon and set of course, but it does not have the same level of sweeping success as it does against these type of heavy offenses.
Melmetal did not do a ton here besides pressure a Zeraora out, which it did after getting chip that it should not have if the opponent properly switched to Rotom-Heat to begin with. Regardless, it was not able to get in much besides after Mandibuzz got flinched out, which led to it taking a strong Earthquake in return for taking out Excadrill. It was ok, but really just ok. It is never able to sweep these teams and really should just be limited to chip if they play their Rotom properly. I think Melmetal that are not Choice Banded tend to struggle against more fast / high tempo teams if they are not HO as with Choice Band it can at least nuke something whenever it gets in, but it lacks the OHKO/2HKO prowess and it is never getting enough of an opening to sweep unless they are entirely unprepared.
Melmetal did not do a ton in the first one because he had Seismitoad and Rotom-Heat. For some reason, he let me trade a lot of health for a kill on Kyurem, but otherwise it was basically only there to pivot into Clefable and try to take advantage of the occasional free turn. In the second one, it did not even need to get an attack off for me to win, but he also had Jellicent, which is a pretty hard counter to this set. I feel like this Melmetal set runs into a lot of match-ups like this, which is cause for concern in my eyes.
Good teammates for Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal:
: Block Toxapex is able to trap other Toxapex, which opens up the game for this Melmetal to have a chance at sweeping when facing opposing Toxapex. I used this core on the ladder and it worked wonders, but obviously it is a bit cheesy -- there are more consistent exploits out there for sure, but I saw a few others using it on the ladder yesterday, so I guess it is gaining some traction.
(): Seismitoad is able to get up Stealth Rocks and force Knocks or burns with Scald, all of which help open things up against balance for Melmetal. This basic chip and crippling can go a long way to finding sequence where it can come in and set up easier than otherwise. Kommo-O can do a similar job with Taunt to prevent things from healing up or Toxic to induce status, but it is worse against Toxapex, so it gets a bit less of a mention.
: Like last set, you are being chipped down and require Wish support pretty frequently. Unlike last set, you take less damage from attacks due to the bulk, but you are clicking Substitute pretty often, so that will cost you some health even with Leftovers.
In conclusion, I view Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal as a good potential win condition with enough effectiveness defensively to give it consistent usage, but it is not able to win many games besides against unprepared balances and physically oriented hyper offense, which just folds to it most of the time. I do not think this makes it broken at all as there are still a ton of viable checks and counters to the set outright and playtyles are adaptable; specific combinations of Pokemon falling to a new Pokemon do not necessarily mean that Pokemon is broken is what I am trying to say here. I do believe that this set is good and should see usage closer to the Choice Band set, but it can be shut down in a handful of match-ups, which makes it similar to a lot of other less consistent options in the tier in some ways. What makes it better overall is that it still has a ton of walling prowess to compensate for games it cannot sweep (not to mention Double Iron Bash forces switches and does decent chunks without investment anyway). With all of this said, I do not view this set as broken whatsoever.
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The two other sets I used are far less common in general and honestly nowhere near as noteworthy as the other two, so I will just briefly go over them.
@ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Toxic
- Protect
The main idea behind this set is that you can lure in a number of bulky Water or Ground types not named Toxapex and wear them out with Toxic over time so that you can eventually beat them with your attacks. This also helps chip Rotom-Heat, which can come in handy in longer games. Corviknight is still quite annoying for this set, however, and some Steel types besides it also can have a field day if played well. I like the set on specific teams with Pokemon like Togekiss to capitalize on a crippled Rotom-Heat or Terrakion to capitalize on a crippled Hippowdon, but the set itself is nowhere near banworthy and honestly only worth using with pretty specific partners such as the aforementioned ones. Thunder Punch can become Superpower if you are not worried about Toxapex at all, but I prefer this and just naturally crippling Ferrothorn.
@ Protective Pads
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 240 Atk / 136 SpD / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
- Thunder Wave
Eo Ut Mortus came up with this idea when someone mentioned that Double Iron Bash was leading to Melmetal taking far too much damage in recoil against Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs Pokemon; Protective Pads is able to negate this damage entirely, letting Melmetal attack freely. The thing is that you now lose Leftovers in other match-ups, you still lack the power of Choice Band, and you do not have the sweeping prowess of the Acid Armor + Body Press variants. Honestly, there is potential here and I quite liked playing this set as it had some all-out-attacking capabilities without being locked into a single move, but PP and natural checks/counters to the other sets still made making consistent progress with it a struggle. If Melmetal stays, this set will surely be viable, but I do not consider it remotely broken or even worth including in this discussion beyond mentioning that it is viable.
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After laddering and building a lot with Melmetal and in the Melmetal metagame, I do not believe Melmetal is broken. It is a very good Pokemon with a lot of strength and potential for utility, but there are too many limitations to it that stop it from being a consistent problem. The metagame has a lot of natural checks and counters to it, even if you are looking at the Choice Band set. Melmetal is a very unique Pokemon, unlike anything else that OU has seen this generation and perhaps in prior generations, but I do not view it as too much for the tier as there is ample offensive and defensive counterplay.
I implore everyone who takes interest in OU to ladder for voting reqs over the course of this week with it and see if you agree or disagree -- do not just take my word for it if you can get a firsthand perspective on the matter; this vote is not going to be nearly as lopsided as people imagine and it could go a long way towards the outlook of SS OU for years to come, so now is the best time to participate in a suspect test (especially since I know most of you do not have a ton going on during this period). With this said, I will be using my vote to unban Melmetal and I hope people who wrote it off initially see this and give it some thought/play some games to consider these points.
Thank you Finchinator for the effort you put into such a well-written and well-thought-out post. I learned quite a few new things about Melmetal from you.
My main concern is about the general state of HO from now, especially since against Physical HO, the AcidPress set will be common and perhaps too a Band with 252 HP (or could even afford more def investment than that)
There is a concern because I feel that these physical-spam offense teams were designed to overwhelm Balance teams, using offense mons that share similar checks. And then like a setting-up physical sweeper that normally fails early game would be able to succeed late game.
These strats pretty much go out the window when Balance runs Mel.
OK, let's say HO adapts shifting the focus to special attackers to take out Mel.
The real question then is, can these special oriented teams also take out the rest of the balance team ?
Off the top of my head, in theory, perhaps the kind of HO teams that might work include Sun, Rain feat. special water attackers, and like some sort of Nasty-Plot/Calm-Mind spam team (if such a thing with synergy was possible)
So it's just that when you look at the list of viable wallbreakers (including C ranks) , like almost all the physical ones become doubtful in really making an impact vs a balance, beyond just chipping Mel.
I guess I remain to be convinced that there's enough choices for Special HO, so that HO still has enough options to break future Balance to remain a relatively non-linear & viable playstyle.
PS. it'd be really nice if BO could be a viable playstyle as well
If I qualify, I will vote for Melmetal to be unbanned.
Since Finchinator's excellent post covered much of what Melmetal does and why it's not too strong for the current metagame, I will address only (what I think is) the fallacious argument that "Melmetal is too good against HO".
It seems people are calculating the damage Melmetal takes from / causes with certain moves in a vacuum, then concluding that, because he can survive powerful hits from certain offensive Pokémon and KO them back, thus winning 1v1, therefore he does well vs HO in general.
That is a very superficial analysis and in no way representative of what a 6v6 game of Pokémon looks like.
For instance, let's say that, in turn 30, Bisharp uses Swords Dance as Melmetal switches in. Next turn, Melmetal takes around 80% from LO +2 Knock Off, then OHKOes with EQ/Superpower. Ok, but now he's at 20% (assuming no Spikes/SR), and can no longer check Shell Smash Cloyster, who cleans up late game. And no, he cannot simply receive Wishes from Clefable and heal back to full, because that requires at least 3 free turns (switching Clefable in, using Wish, and using Teleport), which can never be achieved against good HO players.
Not to mention the fact that most offensive teams in the ladder are now packing sweepers and wallbreakers that punish Melmetal really hard, such as LO Hydreigon, LO Darmanitan, SD Hawlucha, Specs Chandelure, Specs Keldeo, etc. Not to mention already well-established Pokémon like CB Dracovish (especially in rain), Specs Kyurem, NP Rotom-H, which all still crush Melmetal.
In light of the above, it's clear that good and well played HO teams are basically unaffected by Melmetal's presence in the tier. And since it's pretty much agreed upon that Balance and Stall can deal with it very well, I believe there are no reasons to ban Melmetal.
If I qualify, I will vote for Melmetal to be unbanned.
Since Finchinator's excellent post covered much of what Melmetal does and why it's not too strong for the current metagame, I will address only (what I think is) the fallacious argument that "Melmetal is too good against HO".
It seems people are calculating the damage Melmetal takes from / causes with certain moves in a vacuum, then concluding that, because he can survive powerful hits from certain offensive Pokémon and KO them back, thus winning 1v1, therefore he does well vs HO in general.
That is a very superficial analysis and in no way representative of what a 6v6 game of Pokémon looks like.
For instance, let's say that, in turn 30, Bisharp uses Swords Dance as Melmetal switches in. Next turn, Melmetal takes around 80% from LO +2 Knock Off, then OHKOes with EQ/Superpower. Ok, but now he's at 20% (assuming no Spikes/SR), and can no longer check Shell Smash Cloyster, who cleans up late game. And no, he cannot simply receive Wishes from Clefable and heal back to full, because that requires at least 3 free turns (switching Clefable in, using Wish, and using Teleport), which can never be achieved against good HO players.
Not to mention the fact that most offensive teams in the ladder are now packing sweepers and wallbreakers that punish Melmetal really hard, such as LO Hydreigon, LO Darmanitan, SD Hawlucha, Specs Chandelure, Specs Keldeo, etc. Not to mention already well-established Pokémon like CB Dracovish (especially in rain), Specs Kyurem, NP Rotom-H, which all still crush Melmetal.
In light of the above, it's clear that good and well played HO teams are basically unaffected by Melmetal's presence in the tier. And since it's pretty much agreed upon that Balance and Stall can deal with it very well, I believe there are no reasons to ban Melmetal.
As someone who laddered with HO for reqs, I completely disagree that HO is "basically unaffected" by melmetal. HO runs mons that set up on each others checks, which is something you just can't do for melmetal, because nothing really takes a banded DIB. Even resists are left on 20% at best and therefore are easy for the opp to pick off (they are going to have either priority or a mon that can tank 1 hit), not to mention the only mon that doesn't mind setting up on a DIB is bisharp. The obvious solution here is don't set up, but that leaves you with something in that's not that strong at +0 which goes right towards giving them a free turn that if competent can be used to try to engineer getting clef in to get the wish you tried to make seem impossible. The only way around this is to run mons like the mons you noted, which can be abused by their defensive core, since they're usually choice locked. The worst part is they get to pick which mon I lose, which is going to be the one that swept the opposing team with the least resistance. Also, not every HO mon is doing 80% to mel, here's a look at what they actually do:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 234-276 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (not to mention some sets would prefer to run pwhip > eq, which are now invalidated bc waterfall does so little)
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 120-145 (25.4 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 260-306 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 220-259 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 246-290 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 248-294 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What you'll notice is these leave it on ~40 or more, meaning if they make a decent double and get clef in on something it checks, such as (+0) LO hydra or specs kyu, they can click wish and could even have enough health left to go hard melm:
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 156-185 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 161-191 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (on HO bish is likely the best thing to go to if your opp manages to get double clef on a hydra switch)
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 120-145 (25.4 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (They can literally wish --> hard melm on a cloy)
So to recap, melm removes something and either heavily dents another/scares you out of setting up or they save it in hopes to wishpass to it later, which requires 1 good play if melm is still somewhat healthy (im talking >30, not near max), while would require a misplay if it is not. In the builder, its restricting you out of options that can't deal enough chip to put you in a half decent position if melm chooses to remove that mon, otherwise they can wish to it with little trouble, unless your HO is something like hydra + chandelure. Yes HO can adapt to the best playstyle getting better by going away from setup mons and more towards choiced mons, but I still don't think it's best for the meta that it has to, and it should also be noted these kinds of teams often have other issues. It's far from the unwinnable matchup I've seen claimed in this thread, but it's not even close to as nice as you're claiming it is unless they play it badly.
I believe Melmetal belongs to a class in Pokemon called slow powerful wallbreaker, which has historically been a valid option in OU for the past two gens - slow, bulky but no real switch in provided that they make the correct prediction: Ex: Mega Mawile, Mega Heracross, Spec Magearna, CB T-tar. However, the reason that they were considered balanced is that all these mons lacks reliable recovery - against HO, they can only get one- two kills maximum before getting worn down. The culprit here I suggest, it's not Melmetal but rather Wish Teleport Clef, which allows slow breaker like Melmetal to recover health after smacking down the enemy team. The main reason for why Clef + Melmetal is so broken is that with the exception of Specs Fire Blast Chandelure and Nasty Plot Rotom-H, no other Pokemon can reliably beat both Clef and Melmetal. As Finch mentioned previously, Teleport will be up for testing soon, so we can wait on that
In conclusion, I view Choice Band Melmetal as really good. It is able to threaten entire teams a lot of the time, but I do not think it is broken. There are a number of natural checks to it (Corviknight and Rotom-Heat) coupled with gameflow preventing it from making progress due to prediction reliance, PP limitations on Double Iron Bash, consistent chip, Protect stopping it almost entirely, and it being quite slow. Melmetal is going to be one of the better Pokemon in the metagame, probably falling into the A+ tier in viability rankings if dropped, and the root of that viability can be found from this set, but I do not think that it is enough to push it over the edge for me.
...
In conclusion, I view Acid Armor + Body Press Melmetal as a good potential win condition with enough effectiveness defensively to give it consistent usage, but it is not able to win many games besides against unprepared balances and physically oriented hyper offense, which just folds to it most of the time. I do not think this makes it broken at all as there are still a ton of viable checks and counters to the set outright and playtyles are adaptable; specific combinations of Pokemon falling to a new Pokemon do not necessarily mean that Pokemon is broken is what I am trying to say here. I do believe that this set is good and should see usage closer to the Choice Band set, but it can be shut down in a handful of match-ups, which makes it similar to a lot of other less consistent options in the tier in some ways. What makes it better overall is that it still has a ton of walling prowess to compensate for games it cannot sweep (not to mention Double Iron Bash forces switches and does decent chunks without investment anyway). With all of this said, I do not view this set as broken whatsoever.
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After laddering and building a lot with Melmetal and in the Melmetal metagame, I do not believe Melmetal is broken. It is a very good Pokemon with a lot of strength and potential for utility, but there are too many limitations to it that stop it from being a consistent problem. The metagame has a lot of natural checks and counters to it, even if you are looking at the Choice Band set. Melmetal is a very unique Pokemon, unlike anything else that OU has seen this generation and perhaps in prior generations, but I do not view it as too much for the tier as there is ample offensive and defensive counterplay.
I implore everyone who takes interest in OU to ladder for voting reqs over the course of this week with it and see if you agree or disagree -- do not just take my word for it if you can get a firsthand perspective on the matter; this vote is not going to be nearly as lopsided as people imagine and it could go a long way towards the outlook of SS OU for years to come, so now is the best time to participate in a suspect test (especially since I know most of you do not have a ton going on during this period). With this said, I will be using my vote to unban Melmetal and I hope people who wrote it off initially see this and give it some thought/play some games to consider these points.
A lot of content (thank you) but I personally don't agree with the substance at all. The general tone of the un-ban posts seem to revolve around "it's manageable" probably because those posters are smart players. That doesn't mean it's not broken.
"There are a number of natural checks to it (Corviknight and Rotom-Heat)"
You say "there are a number of checks" but then list just Corviknight and Rotom-Heat. Later you say "the metagame has a lot of natural checks and counters".
Who? Where? I'd like to see the calcs! The best checks are Ferro and Corvi. Ferro is not a counter because it takes a beating from superpower or is barely able to switch into DIB (needs helmet). Corvi needs to be at least ~65-85% (based on EV spread) to switch into thunder punch (after which it can roost and outspeed) so it is also not a counter. These are weak checks.
The reality is to me (until I'm convinced otherwise) is that there are very few checks (Rotom-H, Ferro, Corvi). And you will want Toxapex and/or a protect user (Toed) to help scout moves to help predict better - actually you might want both or else you lose to Dracovish. Does that team already sound pretty familiar? And I haven't even added a Clefable to it yet...
Yes, that team will handle Metal fine. So yes, you are right that the natural checks to Melmetal are already common in the meta. I will give you that. But it further makes all other teams unviable. (HO has ways to get around Melmetal since you will be sacking pokemon on the reg but it's not pretty IMO)
Melmetal constrains metagame development. With Melmetal, there is no metagame development. Melmetal warps the meta to it. Every team will have to dedicate 2-4 pokemon to Melmetal to be viable, or else your team will get clobbered.
For the oldies: remember gen 5 before rain+swift swim was banned and rain was broken AF? I ran a defensive core of: Gastrodon, Chansey, Jellicent, Ferrothorn. I beat every rain offense team I came across... didn't make those teams less broken. "I adapted" you could say.. "adequate counterplay exists" and I damn proved it - shit was broke tho.
Here's another point, checking Melmetal is different than other pokemon. Let's assume my team is weak to Durant, a viable but uncommon offensive pokemon. The opponent can use Durant to beat my team, but if I am a good player I can minimize the losses with smart play even if my team is weak. With Melmetal, if my team is weak to it there is no counterplay since CB DIB is mindless.
You say that other issues with the CB set are:
Prediction reliance. You need 2-4 natural checks for there to be true prediction reliance. If your main answer is for example is Rotom-H, there's not a whole lot of prediction involved, in fact it's a coin flip - does Metal just mindlessly spam DIB or does he predict the switch with rock slide? One of the meta's criteria for a ban-worthy pokemon is that it reduces strategic play, which IMO is what Melmetal does here with "guessing games". To really make Melmetal prediction be annoying, you need to run 2-4 checks which will likely include Toxapex, allowing you to scout moves
PP Limitations on DIB. Melmetal rarely survives late game so I don't think this is an issue at all. It's meant to blow holes and die mid-game
Gets chipped. Okay
Protect stopping entirely. Applies to all choice based pokemon, didn't stop us from banning Darm-G. Stopping entirely is also exaggeration, prediction works both ways. (A's Metal uses DIB on B's Clefable Protect. B switches out to Rotom-H, A switches in Dracovish). Also, see body press set
You believe that neither the CB set or Acid Armor set are broken. I disagree on the CB set, but let's for sake of discussion agree to disagree. The issue I have is that the acid armor set beats the very few checks of the CB set. A tell-tale sign of when something is broken is when multiple viable sets actually destroy the checks of the other set. It's a huge mistake to look at each in isolation.
For the record, I believe the CB set is busted on its own.
A lot of content (thank you) but I personally don't agree with the substance at all. The general tone of the un-ban posts seem to revolve around "it's manageable" probably because those posters are smart players. That doesn't mean it's not broken.
"There are a number of natural checks to it (Corviknight and Rotom-Heat)"
You say "there are a number of checks" but then list just Corviknight and Rotom-Heat. Later you say "the metagame has a lot of natural checks and counters".
Who? Where? I'd like to see the calcs! The best checks are Ferro and Corvi. Ferro is not a counter because it takes a beating from superpower or is barely able to switch into DIB (needs helmet). Corvi needs to be at least ~65-85% (based on EV spread) to switch into thunder punch (after which it can roost and outspeed) so it is also not a counter. These are weak checks.
The reality is to me (until I'm convinced otherwise) is that there are very few checks (Rotom-H, Ferro, Corvi). And you will want Toxapex and/or a protect user (Toed) to help scout moves to help predict better - actually you might want both or else you lose to Dracovish. Does that team already sound pretty familiar? And I haven't even added a Clefable to it yet...
Melmetal constrains metagame development. With Melmetal, there is no metagame development. Melmetal warps the meta to it. Every team will have to dedicate 2-4 pokemon to Melmetal to be viable, or else your team will get clobbered.
Here's another point, checking Melmetal is different than other pokemon. Let's assume my team is weak to Durant, a viable but uncommon offensive pokemon. The opponent can use Durant to beat my team, but if I am a good player I can minimize the losses with smart play even if my team is weak. With Melmetal, if my team is weak to it there is no counterplay since CB DIB is mindless.
You say that other issues with the CB set are:
Prediction reliance. You need 2-4 natural checks for there to be true prediction reliance. If your main answer is for example is Rotom-H, there's not a whole lot of prediction involved, in fact it's a coin flip - does Metal just mindlessly spam DIB or does he predict the switch with rock slide? One of the meta's criteria for a ban-worthy pokemon is that it reduces strategic play, which IMO is what Melmetal does here with "guessing games". To really make Melmetal prediction be annoying, you need to run 2-4 checks which will likely include Toxapex, allowing you to scout moves
PP Limitations on DIB. Melmetal rarely survives late game so I don't think this is an issue at all. It's meant to blow holes and die mid-game
Gets chipped. Okay
Protect stopping entirely. Applies to all choice based pokemon, didn't stop us from banning Darm-G. Stopping entirely is also exaggeration, prediction works both ways. (A's Metal uses DIB on B's Clefable Protect. B switches out to Rotom-H, A switches in Dracovish). Also, see body press set
You believe that neither the CB set or Acid Armor set are broken. I disagree on the CB set, but let's for sake of discussion agree to disagree. The issue I have is that the acid armor set beats the very few checks of the CB set. A tell-tale sign of when something is broken is when multiple viable sets actually destroy the checks of the other set. It's a mistake to look at each in isolation.
For the record, I believe the CB set is busted on its own.
I believe pivoting around is not anything new to this meta, as shown by Zeraora. There are definitely no hard switch-ins, rather you deal with it by pivoting around it. I definitely don't see anyone complaining that Zeraora is broken simply because they have to pivot around to play around it.
And even if it hits hard as fuck, I don't see anyone complaining that Crawdaunt is broken because it can 2hko anything barring kommo-o, which is easily worn down when its lefties is knocked.
This tier is not new to slow powerful wallbreakers, and Melmetal is just another.
I don't see anyone complaining that nothing counters Crawdaunt, or that nothing counters Zeraora, or that gknot Zera beats toad where BU wouldn't, etc.
Ok so addressing each point 1 by 1
1) Zeraora, and like every hard hitter
2) What?
3) I mean, yea rocky helmet ferro and hippo(which you completely forgot to mention) is a thing so
4) I don't see how the comparison the G-Darm works here, when it possesses U-Turn, it's much faster, and it hits harder with CB.
Also, prediction working both ways is an argument that exists for like any mon, it's just part of the game. If you used protect on clefable vs a specs kyurem and they switch out predicting your switch, you can't use that argument to say Kyurem is broken.
I believe pivoting around is not anything new to this meta, as shown by Zeraora. There are definitely no hard switch-ins, rather you deal with it by pivoting around it. I definitely don't see anyone complaining that Zeraora is broken simply because they have to pivot around to play around it.
And even if it hits hard as fuck, I don't see anyone complaining that Crawdaunt is broken because it can 2hko anything barring kommo-o, which is easily worn down when its lefties is knocked.
This tier is not new to slow powerful wallbreakers, and Melmetal is just another.
I don't see anyone complaining that nothing counters Crawdaunt, or that nothing counters Zeraora, or that gknot Zera beats toad where BU wouldn't, etc.
Ok so addressing each point 1 by 1
1) Zeraora
2) What?
3) I mean, yea rocky helmet ferro and hippo(which you completely forgot to mention) is a thing so
4) I don't see how the comparison the G-Darm works here, when it possesses U-Turn, it's much faster, and it hits harder with CB.
Also, prediction working both ways is an argument that exists for like any mon, it's just part of the game. If you used protect on clefable vs a specs kyurem and they switch out predicting your switch, you can't use that argument to say Kyurem is broken.
This is a suspect thread, so I don't think "deal wit hit by pivoting around it" is a valid argument when it comes to determining whether X is broken. but yes, I agree, if I rand 2-4 checks I too would deal with Melmetal by switching around and pivoting hoping to catch it flat footed. In fact, it works. That wasn't my point though, my point was that in order to make Melmetal prediction reliant you have to have multiple checks.
Craudaunt is a nice comparison offensively, also very powerful. Now, give Crawdaunt 135hp/143def lol and I would say it's a better comparison!
Hippo gets 2HKO'd and cannot switch in, NOT a check. If you are adding speed to hippo to outspeed Melmetal's who EV to outspeed hippo (as all should), I would argue that Melmetal is twisting the meta to force sub-optimal sets, another sign it is broken.
Agree G-darm having u-turn makes it a different beast, but I was commenting on the choice-locked nature. I give you some credit here, but I don't think the comparison is far fetched given so often choice-locked. G-darm also was SR weak,
If you are adding speed to hippo to outspeed Melmetal's who EV to outspeed hippo (as all should), I would argue that Melmetal is twisting the meta to force sub-optimal sets, another sign it is broken.
I see 0 problem with running speed on defensive mons to creep some stuff, and if you have a problem with it because its slow, then why does conk often run max speed, if you think its both slow and defensive, Corviknight lol
I mean, besides daunt having like the most spammable move ever in Knock Off, plus much better offensive typing, plus having priority, plus did I mention Knock Off?
Agree G-darm having u-turn makes it a different beast, but I was commenting on the choice-locked nature. I give you some credit here, but I don't think the comparison is far fetched given so often choice-locked. G-darm also was SR weak,
This is my issue. There's way too many of them as it is. Adding another one in Melmetal just further constrains defensive teambuilding. Sure, having one or two slow, powerful breakers in the tier with no switch-ins is probably ok. SS OU has about 7. And this is why defensive teambuilding is as linear as it is. Melmetal does not solve this issue, it makes it worse. Sure it's manageable. But I'm pretty sure Zacian would be "managable" in OU. (Aside: Rocky Helmet Corv and Ferro are used as "checks" to Zacian in Ubers to keep it bay for a few turns and limit the damage it inflicts on their team by pivoting around. Sound familiar?) Good players wielding a well-rounded core are able to improvise answers to pretty much anything. But "has checks" =/= "Not broken".
Using Regigigas as a suitably bulky neutral comparison point, substitute unrealistically bulky Snorlax if this offends you:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 384-452 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 304-358 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 334-394 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sure, Zacian has loads more Speed, better coverage there's no actual comparison between them, etc, etc. But I was making the point that the lengths people are going to in order to keep Melmetal at bay remind me of pre-Home Ubers and the methods they used to limit Zacian's impact on the game until it dropped below several other mons in their VR.
I guess the takeaway is, we can adapt to Melmetal. But should we? Should we have to constrain teambuilding even further than it currently is? I certainly don't think so.
A lot of content (thank you) but I personally don't agree with the substance at all. The general tone of the un-ban posts seem to revolve around "it's manageable" probably because those posters are smart players. That doesn't mean it's not broken.
"There are a number of natural checks to it (Corviknight and Rotom-Heat)"
You say "there are a number of checks" but then list just Corviknight and Rotom-Heat. Later you say "the metagame has a lot of natural checks and counters".
Who? Where? I'd like to see the calcs! The best checks are Ferro and Corvi. Ferro is not a counter because it takes a beating from superpower or is barely able to switch into DIB (needs helmet). Corvi needs to be at least ~65-85% (based on EV spread) to switch into thunder punch (after which it can roost and outspeed) so it is also not a counter. These are weak checks.
The reality is to me (until I'm convinced otherwise) is that there are very few checks (Rotom-H, Ferro, Corvi). And you will want Toxapex and/or a protect user (Toed) to help scout moves to help predict better - actually you might want both or else you lose to Dracovish. Does that team already sound pretty familiar? And I haven't even added a Clefable to it yet...
Yes, that team will handle Metal fine. So yes, you are right that the natural checks to Melmetal are already common in the meta. I will give you that. But it further makes all other teams unviable. (HO has ways to get around Melmetal since you will be sacking pokemon on the reg but it's not pretty IMO)
Melmetal constrains metagame development. With Melmetal, there is no metagame development. Melmetal warps the meta to it. Every team will have to dedicate 2-4 pokemon to Melmetal to be viable, or else your team will get clobbered.
This is a poor analysis of Melmetal and its impact on teambuilding/the metagame at large; the narrative you are trying to integrate into your post claims that Melmetal counterplay is limited and fitting that into teams is problematic, but Rotom-Heat, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and pivoting bulky Waters (Toxapex, Seismitoad, or Rotom-Wash, for example) are all quite common. This is not even including things like RH Hippowdon, Incineroar, or Keldeo who can check it in a pinch with decent popularity or fringe Pokemon who also deal with it such as Jellicent, Rotom-Mow, Quagsire, Milotic, etc.
If you think that fitting one of Rotom-Heat, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, or a bulky Water onto your team is too much, then odds are your balance teams have a number of other flaws or you are best off using something more offensive, which is fine because these teams are able to pressure Melmetal and even you agree that while it is not always pretty, there are sufficient ways to get around it.
This is not an argument of trying to force something into the tier because there is barely enough counterplay for the sake of being a catalyst of metagame change; this is an argument of it fitting into the metagame due to not being broken. There is ample counterplay on the offensive and defensive end of the spectrum. Melmetal is a very good Pokemon and is a strong threat, but the combination of the Pokemon above, Protect being spammed to scout it out repeatedly, and the pace of more offensive teams (not to mention that some of the above Pokemon fit well on B-O) makes it very possible to check. In my eyes, Melmetal is just another A+ threat with a unique set of offensive capabilities; it does not stand out as particularly broken to me.
For the oldies: remember gen 5 before rain+swift swim was banned and rain was broken AF? I ran a defensive core of: Gastrodon, Chansey, Jellicent, Ferrothorn. I beat every rain offense team I came across... didn't make those teams less broken. "I adapted" you could say.. "adequate counterplay exists" and I damn proved it - shit was broke tho.
As a BW player, I am here to say that these type of Rain stalls were never broken and you do not know what you are talking about with this comparison. Let's stick on topic.
Seismitoad and Rotom-W are not threatenig enough for melmetal and don't have a reliably source of recovery (they can, at best, PP stall DIB). Rotom-W has, admittedly, the good plus of having VSwitch for mantaining momentum. Corvi takes 60%+ from tpunch and is forced to roost, it doesn't even win a pp war vs tpunch, toxapex is kinda okay but if you lose the predict on EQ you have to switch in again somehow because regenerator won't save you with a 33% recovery. Ferrothorn is good, but i'd argue that running helmet severly limits its defensive capabilities because it's way easier to wear it out. Rotom-H is quite good, still missing reliable recovery but can at the very least pivot with VSwitch.
Most of your would-be checks are quite frail and don't really handle Melmetal, at all. Not only that, but the main argument is how stupid the meta will be when most teams will run the same mons with a reliable wishpasser in order to resist the consistent lure. I don't think Melmetal lacks counterplay, even though it's more limited than what most pro-ban posts here make it out to be, the problem is overcentralization with another stupidly strong wallbreaker threat. This is really the gist of it, and people will divide between those who think the meta will be fine after the ban, and those who don't.
I think it will somehow make it even worse than it currently is.
I am going to refrain from talking about Zera since I have my own unfavorable opinions of it in the tier which is not the point of the discussion. But I don't like the comparison in the first place since Melmetal and Zeraora are litearlly opposite pokemon, they almost could not be more different
review your terminology, check doesn't necessarily have to switch in and hard wall it. and just because a mon has no counters doesn't make it broken.
I see 0 problem with running speed on defensive mons to creep some stuff, and if you have a problem with it because its slow, then why does conk often run max speed, if you think its both slow and defensive, Corviknight lol
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%)
Is Hippowdon a check if it switches in, and then dies on the next turn leaving Melmetal untouched? If running speed on Hippowdon becomes the recommended set.. I would love to see the eventual smogon analysis page lol
I mean, besides daunt having like the most spammable move ever in Knock Off, plus much better offensive typing, plus having priority, plus did I mention Knock Off?
Did you just completely forget how damn hard Band hits, plus how scarf was very much viable along with having a free Band.
This is a poor analysis of Melmetal and its impact on teambuilding/the metagame at large; the narrative you are trying to integrate into your post claims that Melmetal counterplay is limited and fitting that into teams is problematic, but Rotom-Heat, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and pivoting bulky Waters (Toxapex, Seismitoad, or Rotom-Wash, for example) are all quite common. This is not even including things like RH Hippowdon, Incineroar, or Keldeo who can check it in a pinch with decent popularity or fringe Pokemon who also deal with it such as Jellicent, Rotom-Mow, Quagsire, Milotic, etc.
If you think that fitting one of Rotom-Heat, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, or a bulky Water onto your team is too much, then odds are your balance teams have a number of other flaws or you are best off using something more offensive, which is fine because these teams are able to pressure Melmetal and even you agree that while it is not always pretty, there are sufficient ways to get around it.
This is not an argument of trying to force something into the tier because there is barely enough counterplay for the sake of being a catalyst of metagame change; this is an argument of it fitting into the metagame due to not being broken. There is ample counterplay on the offensive and defensive end of the spectrum. Melmetal is a very good Pokemon and is a strong threat, but the combination of the Pokemon above, Protect being spammed to scout it out repeatedly, and the pace of more offensive teams (not to mention that some of the above Pokemon fit well on B-O) makes it very possible to check. In my eyes, Melmetal is just another A+ threat with a unique set of offensive capabilities; it does not stand out as particularly broken to me.
As a BW player, I am here to say that these type of Rain stalls were never broken and you do not know what you are talking about with this comparison. Let's stick on topic.
Thanks Finch for the response, I think discussion will soon dry up since it's going to show we have different tiering philosophies which is OK, the democratic process will play out.
I will make some responses and clarifications though. You laid out a handful of pokemon that are "checks": Rotom-Heat/Wash, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Seismitoad. My point wasn't that fitting these pokemon are difficult, but rather fitting just one of these as you mention isn't enough. You need minimum 2 of these to actually give Melmetal some real prediction headaches, and that's where the issue is. If you just run Ferro, there's going to be some 50/50s whether Metal superpowers or DIBs. So yes, this pokemon requires multiple checks and there are zero counters. Philosophical question, isn't this what we consider broken? I'd like feedback on that. To me, using the argument "you can run X, Y AND Z to deal with [Suspect]" is a slippery slope. If you have to handle something with 2-3 pokemon, isn't it broken then...?
This is the list of checks based on your post:
Corvi: check, avoid t-punch if you are lower than ~75% hp
Ferro: check, avoid superpower, helmet is a must (loses 1 on 1)
Rotom H/W: check, avoid superpower (loses 1 on 1)
Pex: peudocheck, loses 1 on 1, but can switch out (so can melmetal though) and regenerate 33% or knock off (keep in mind melmetal can predict knock off)
Seismitoed: check
As you say, "check in a pinch"
Helmet Hippowdon: loses outright to metal, much less be able to switch in. Needs speed EVs to be a check, even in a pinch. Unless your goal is just to knock off ~40% from helmet, then I would say Helmet is the true check, not Hippowdon. I don't like the argument that [suspect] is checked by rocky helmet........
Inciniroar: I would really emphasize in a pinch: -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%), -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%)
Keldeo: in a pinch: 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 228-268 (70.5 - 82.9%), 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 306-360 (64.8 - 76.2%) (or clench your butthole for Hydro Pump)
Jellicent: check, avoid t-punch
quagsire: loses because of 50% flinch chance so I disagree, this is too sultry to even say "in a pinch" for me :\
Milotic: check
Counters: none
Side note on BW (again not trying to go off-topic) but I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about rain-stall, I was talking about rain offense (drizzle+SS) which you could still "adapt" to.
@ Choice Band 
& 
: Both of these appreciate Melmetal putting a strain on common Ground types like Seismitoad and Hippowdon; Zeraora also appreciates the damage done onto Ferrothorn in order to put it into Close Combat range in order to avoid taking a Body Press or Knock Off. In addition, both of these Pokemon take advantage of Corviknight, which Melmetal appreciates. If released into the tier officially, I can see Melmetal being paired with them often. With this said, I do not find this synergy to be overly oppressive at all. 
: This should go for most offensive Pokemon in the tier as they appreciate the pivot, but this is especially the case for Melmetal as they compliment each other quite well. First off, Melmetal is constantly taking physical hits that leave it low, so getting a Wish passed from a Teleport is great. Top this off with Clefable being specially defensive more often than not, letting it sponge the special hits Melmetal cannot, and you get an even better dynamic between the two. This is not all, however. Clefable tends to lure in Steel types that Melmetal can feast on with a boosted Superpower or Earthquake if need be. In the replays above, you saw a lot of this happening as well as passing numerous Wishes to Melmetal. I think this combination is honestly what could push some people over the edge to it being banworthy, but I think there is still a lot of counterplay considering how common Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and Whirlwind Hippowdon are right now. This is not even saying they are the only counterplay right now, but they all are very common regardless and do the trick, which is important. 
: This one is a bit more team specific than the ones above, but I find Hydreigon fitting on to most of my Choice Band Melmetal builds. The Choice Scarf set always baits in things that are crushed by it, making an easy U-turn give Melmetal openings. The Choice Scarf set can also fit Thunder Wave in the fourth slot, which could potentially open things up for Melmetal in the long haul as well. In addition, the Nasty Plot set pretty much feasts on all of the normal checks and counters to Melmetal, especially if it is able to fit Flamethrower. That is more basic synergy than the ones listed above, but I still love pairing them to create a potent offensive backbone to balance teams. 
: Block Toxapex is able to trap other Toxapex, which opens up the game for this Melmetal to have a chance at sweeping when facing opposing Toxapex. I used this core on the ladder and it worked wonders, but obviously it is a bit cheesy -- there are more consistent exploits out there for sure, but I saw a few others using it on the ladder yesterday, so I guess it is gaining some traction.
(
): Seismitoad is able to get up Stealth Rocks and force Knocks or burns with Scald, all of which help open things up against balance for Melmetal. This basic chip and crippling can go a long way to finding sequence where it can come in and set up easier than otherwise. Kommo-O can do a similar job with Taunt to prevent things from healing up or Toxic to induce status, but it is worse against Toxapex, so it gets a bit less of a mention. 
