Metagame NP: RU Stage 8 - Nocturne (Mienshao banned, see post #8)

[EviGaro]

Hlelo everyone, with the laddering part of RULT behind us and the most recent survey, we decided to move on the first thing that was seen as a near unanimous concern, Mienshao. Reasoning in part thanks to Feliburn and Lunala :

Mienshao is one of the strongest forces in the tier. Life Orb sets are really hard to switch into, without using Vileplume or Galarian Weezing that are not without their issues when trying to counter it. Its biggest strength comes from its incredibly good offensive stats, and the incredible combination of Knock Off + U-turn, which are so good in a tier that relies so much on held items and pivoting. Not to mention it having Regenerator, making it more durable than it should be for those stats, and increasing how annoying it can be while spamming U-turn. The other benefit of Regenerator compared to several options in the metagame is also that it effectively makes it one of the main pivots of the tier with item flexibility, with life orb being the most obvious as it gives it an edge power wise above the competition without lacking much in terms of facing the hazards game, bar the exception of webs. There's also the Choice Scarf set, which makes it one of the better revenge killers in the tier, being able to even outspeed pokemon like Arctozolt under hail, modest Ludicolo under rain, and neutral nature Polteageist and Cloyster at +2. All in all, Mienshao has become seen as a problem for the tier, devolving it into a volt turn madness, with Mienshao at the epicenter of it. Due to all of this, the council has decided to suspect it before any other pokemon.

It does have flaws, but they tend to be less important. Its speed can still be exploited in this tier with non scarf sets obviously, but it remains excellent and a few notches above the average. It is extremely frail, but regen allows it some leeway in that respect, coming in on some knocks even from fairly strong attackers if it has too and pivot back out for a 33%. It tends to have an underwhelming matchup vs heavy offence because of priority wrecking it after setup, but that's really by far its worst matchup on paper and even then it can do some work with decent playing. And that's less true for scarf sets, which can be exploited but also put a stop to several potential sweeps

Despite most of the people being openly favourable to one outcome, we feel we are too late in this tiering to not make it open to the public, and so it is now up to you to decide what awaits Mienshao in the RU tier. Tagging Marty and Kris to announce it on the ladder, thank you!

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

Suspect information:

• There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUM7 (nickname)”. For example, RUM7 Xurk or RUM7 CMAA
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
• The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on Sunday, August 8th, 23:59 EDT

/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query feel free to PM me or phantom.

Happy laddering!

 

[Feliburn]

I'm personally leaning towards a ban on Mienshao, it reminds me a lot of Thundurus with the broken combination of Knock Off + U-turn + very solid speed and offensive stats. It's frail as hell, but Regenerator works so well on such a pivotal mon, you can't take hazards and Life Orb recoil, U-turn out of there and be back like nothing happened.

The only good answers I've found to this mon are Vileplume and Weezing-Galar, defensively at least. First one prevents it from pivoting around as much thanks to Effect Spore, and the second one not only eats any hit with ease, but if you are using Neutralizing Gas, you completely invalidate Regenerator, making it easier to chip. However, I don't really enjoy using them as much on the current meta, because everything just volts or uturns, and they get chipped easily, especially with hazards up.

Running more offensive teams is what has helped me deal with Mienshao, having mons that can trade with it or spamming faster hitters. However, then comes the Choice Scarf set, which shines vs these teams, as it hits naturally hard and becomes super hard to revenge kill because of its already high speed. All in all, this mon's incredibly annoying, and basically forces the tier to be in a state of momentum everywhere, otherwise you get pressured easily. Would love to see what others have to say about Mienshao, as these are just my thoughts based on my experience with the mon.

 

[povaudi]

I think mienshao should be banned. It is the most dominate scarfer in the tier. Plus it has some really overwhelming fake outs

 

[Soul8BallPRO63]

I dont think mienshao should be banned.I mean it has bad defense's plus its not that good without a life orb or choice band/scarf and as long as the person has a focus sashed and a supereffective move against it.So to be honest a I dont think its that bad.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

So, MIenshao... If I'm being honest, I expected one of the electrics to be tested first, but after playing with it after a break I took from pokemon I can say I didn't remember it being THIS strong.
When I see suspected pokemon, I focus on 3 mayor questions to decide if it deserves the boot or not:

1. Does it destroy the tier with little support?
2. Is it constraining to teambuilding?
3. Does its presence invalidate the use of mons similar to it? (regarding typing and niche)

I will first focus on points 2 and 3, as they are easier to answer:
2. Yes, this mon is constricting. the speed tier it possesses + the power it has forces the of either really bulky answers or scarfers faster than 105 speed, which are not really viable outside of mienshao itself. This, combined with its ability to mix and match different aspects of its sets, makes it really hard to cover effectively on a reasonable amount of team slots.
3. There are currently 3 fighting types in the tier, and all of them fill different roles (coba as support/pivot and hera as a breaker/cleaner), but they do compete heavily with mienshao due to its sheer versatility. If it wants to, it can perform the breaker role hera has with LO swords dance, and it can perform the pivot role far better than coba due to regenerator)

Regarding point 1.... I always forget this thing has the same attack as hera, so it really shouldn't be surprising it's breaking the tier with offensive sets. People were just more focused on its role as a pivot and a cleaner a couple of months ago.

Now, what does actually check mienshao? as they mentioned above, Weezing g and vileplume are the most reliable check defensive wise, and mons like noivern and crobat can check the non scarf sets. The problem lies in how mienshao can potentially outlive them trough the match with regen, and how most of them can be covered pretty easily in one teamslot (reuniclus comes to mind as a great regen partner)


So, given all of the above, I would vote BAN on this... if I had the time to get reqs for it XD
(team made by me and used during my limited time playing: https://pokepast.es/0faaecb4bc9e3885 )

 

[Overdragoon]

After playing on the ladder for a few days while using Mienshao on my team I can say that it does seem very overpowered for RU (at least for the time being). U-Turn coupled with Regen is rather broken. Mienshao finds very easy opportunities to come in and either put its user on a favorable position, KO something or at the very least Knock Off a switch-in. LO/Scarf cover pretty much anything your team needs. But I tried Choice Band on it and it really managed to shine for my team. I snatched so many surprise KO's with it specially because it bluffs Scarf. I did not find a single game where using Mienshao did not help me win. I believe it really constricts team building because it threatens every single kind of playstyle. For all these reasons as well as the reasons mentioned by other users I'm leaning towards BAN on it. I will think more about it but I do believe it would be healthy for the tier for it to go RUBL.

On a side note.... I haven't played for a while so I'm a little rusty on how suspect tests work. I made reqs and took a SS of my GXE/Games played. Do I just wait now? Thanks!

 

[csmosley5885]

I wasn't able to get reqs after getting close and tilting (a bad idea with stall), so I'll keep this brief, but I hope people consider voting DNB on this and it's not just a foregone conclusion like a lot of suspects seem to be. There are 3 questions to consider when determining whether a Pokemon should be banned.

Is Mienshao uncompetitive?
This is an easy no: Mienshao is, I would say, less dependent on luck compared to a lot of Pokemon in this tier, and it doesn't warp the game in a way that makes the game overwhelmingly dependent on team matchup.

Is Mienshao broken?
A lot of people would argue this, but Mienshao is definitionally not broken. I know the community is uncomfortable with using stats for determining legality (even though the whole tiering structure is built around statistics, but that's a discussion for another day), but if Mienshao was broken, it would be receiving more than 19% usage at the highest level of the ladder. Simply put, usage of Mienshao is not nearly required to be successful in the tier as it stands because a vast majority of successful teams are not using it. Furthermore, Mienshao has several checks that are legitimate members of the RU tier in Weezing-Galar, Vileplume, and Doublade, among others.

Is Mienshao unhealthy for the RU metagame?
This is the only question which I think people arguing in good faith could legitimately answer "yes" to, but within the Smogon tiering framework, I don't think Mienshao comes anywhere near to being worthy of a ban. Regenerator is fairly unique among offensive mons in or below RU (although Regenerator Reuniclus does see fairly high usage), but it does not, in my opinion, create unhealthy incentives toward standard play or limit battling skill in importance for winning. Mienshao does not hinder team building in any significant way: there are plenty of viable checks to Mienshao and plenty of viable playstyles with and without Mienshao as a team member. Banning a singular mon for being unhealthy for the tier is supposed to simply consider the limits it places on team building and battling skill as the most important factors for winning the games, and Mienshao simply does not do that. The "unhealthy" question is a "last-ditch, subjective catch-all" that should not be used lightly, and the onus is on those changing the status quo to prove the element should be banned, and I don't believe that level of evidence has been breached.

I type all this knowing that Mienshao will be banned shortly anyway, but I hope some people at least hesitate before casting a vote for ban. The goal of bans on Smogon is to eliminate elements that cause "more skilled" players to lose games more than a desirable amount, and I don't believe Mienshao contributes any amount of wins to "less skilled" players that will be removed with its banning. I'm not going to say that you can't vote for a ban if you simply find Mienshao to not be fun to play with in the tier, but I think we should honest and open about the tiering policy, whether Mienshao in RU violates the norms of play at Smogon, and whether we want such actions to be easily taken without amending the tiering policy.

 

[EviGaro]

Mienshao has been banned

Next couple of weeks will be interesting, like mentioned in the survey quite a few things were considered worrying, so without saying something else is happening very soon we'll be looking at the tier and what changes, as always leave your comments about the new meta / what struck you during the suspect here!

 

[C0nfiden1 0yster]

Hello all! With the recent ban of Mienshao, a massive “hole” is left in the meta. I thought I might go over some potential replacements.

Before I go into the mons, I just want to clarify that no pokemon can even come close to replacing shao, as none of these mons have regenerator + uturn + knock off. These picks are purely chosen based on their ability to recreate Shao’s 2 best sets in Scarf and Life Orb.


Scarf Flygon is likely to be the best replacement for Scarf Shao, This is because Scarf Shao was often used to lure in opposing, Togekiss, Gweezing, and Crobat, in which it would click u-turn into Xurk, Raikou, etc… Scarf Flygon happens to lure in those same pokes and be able to click u-turn.

Another thing that Flygon does well is it doesn’t mind hazards as much as other scarfers do. Having immunity to spikes and a stealth rock resistance is about as close as it's going to get to Shao’s hazard immunity (besides boots but that's not the point).

Flygon, like Shao, can also clean in the endgame which is one of its prime reasons to use Shao in the first place. The major difference between the two is that Shao could make progress on almost everything through knock-off, while flygon cannot do the same (also regen).


Scarf Passimian is the only other FE mon that has Knock off, u-turn, and is a fighting type. These traits of Shao is what made it so great, it would always make progress with knock and u-turn. It also has ok bulk in 100hp/90def/60sdef defense stats.

Obviously hazards, specifically spikes chip it down, reducing its longevity, and also its speed tier isn’t fantastic. Scarf Gardevior, Scarf Regidraco, and the rare Scarf Kiss and Scarf Chande all speed-tie it. And +1 Sharpedo, Scarf Xurk, and Scarf Hera all outspeed it. It also lacks Stone edge which isn’t a huge deal as it still has moves like toxic, Gunk Shot, and Rockslide to use, but it certainly doesn’t appreciate this move's absence.


Heracross more specifically replicates Shao’s wall-breaking Life Orb set but I wasn’t intending on mentioning Hera’s Flame Orb Set. More so I wanted to mention a potential boots set. I remember someone somewhere saying boots Hera was good and has potential in a shaoless metagame.

I think something like this could be used:
Heracross @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Megahorn /Knock Off
- Stone Edge /Knock Off
Although you miss out on FO’s extra power, +2 OHKOS Togekiss, Reun, and Vileplume after rocks (only 87.5% chance). Its speed tier is decent, outspeeding Xurk and the 80 base speed mons. And it’s typing is valuable in the meta rn.

It’s ground resistance helps it take a hit from Flygon and Steelix.
Its bug STAB helps it with the Psychic’s of the tier, which have gotten much much better over the past month.
It resists U-turn and Knock off

This set, along with Scarf (and mb band) can for sure fill shao’s role as a wallbreaker/ sweeper


This mon can also replace Shao’s LO set with its own LO set, although we have only really seen it used in HO teams on the ladder.

I want to mention CB Lucario, as it was used in a RULT playoff game.
(here’s the link if anyone wishes to see https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-571793)
In the replay, it got 3 kills as it OHKO’ed Registeel and finished off a chipped Vileplume and low Milotic.
This set has potential as it OHKO’s Toge, does a big chunk to G-weezing, and has a good chance to 2HKO Vileplume after rocks.

What sets Lucario apart from Hera (Shao) is its priority, being able to threaten mons faster than it in a 1v1 situation. No its not gonna OHKO the entire tier after a SD, but its still gonna finish off weakened foes.

I also wanted to mention Nasty Plot Luca briefly as it could be a handy mix-up on certain teams to better deal with the physical walls of the tier.


The last mon I will be mentioning is Pangoro as it also replicates Shao’s Life Orb set. People have mainly been using LO SD + 3 attacks or Band, but I think a LO 4 attacks set could be used, as it has a couple of tricks in regards to its move pool that I think it wants to greatly utilize.

STAB Close Combat and STAB Knock Off are great, but it could run Bullet Punch, Gunk Shot/Iron Head, Drain punch, and Parting Shot for its last move slots. You can really mix and match these moves to cover your weaknesses on a team which is a nice option to have.

Those are the 5 Shao replacements I could think of. None of them will truly be able to replicate Shao, but they can cover the role needed. Despite theses mons being good at what they're meant to do, none of them have the longevity of Shao. This will likely lead to an increase in viability of certain steels and more importantly dark types. I think Reun's impact on matches in the next couple of weeks will be interesting to watch as the meta starts to adapt to it better.

Hope you all enjoyed reading! :)

 

[Yourwelcomethanku]

As strange as it may seem Flygon is probably one of the better Mienshao replacements, able to lure in Pokemon that Mienshao could also lure in like Crobat, Togekiss, and Vileplume and then U-turn on them. It also shares similar victims to Mienshao being able to destroy Stakataka, Registeel, and being able to U-turn on Celebi. Flygon is also capable of running Choice Scarf like Mienshao did and crucially still outspeed Slush Rush Arctozolt. I also think Life Orb Roost Flygon is a pretty great underated wallbreaker and it shares many of the same targets as Mienshao.

Sets

Flygon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Roost

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Outrage

Lost its primary revenge killer, and this Pokemon can afford to run Protect for Frist Impression users hail sounds like its going to be quite good.

Set

Arctozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Protect

Both of these were the only 2 good "counters" to Mienshao. Weezing-galar was generally worse then Vileplume as despite countering shao on paper it was exploited by a lot more by common teammates then Vileplume was, teammates such as Golurk and Xurkitree as well lacking Strength sap for reliable recovery. Maybe without Mienshao exploiting Weezing-Galar it can be a more effective counter or check to other Pokemon. I am mainly thinking of Mimikyu, Heracross, and Flygon with Levitate.

This mon can also replace Shao’s LO set with its own LO set, although we have only really seen it used in HO teams on the ladder.

I want to mention CB Lucario, as it was used in a RULT playoff game.
(here’s the link if anyone wishes to see https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-571793)
In the replay, it got 3 kills as it OHKO’ed Registeel and finished off a chipped Vileplume and low Milotic.
This set has potential as it OHKO’s Toge, does a big chunk to G-weezing, and has a good chance to 2HKO Vileplume after rocks.

What sets Lucario apart from Hera (Shao) is its priority, being able to threaten mons faster than it in a 1v1 situation. No its not gonna OHKO the entire tier after a SD, but its still gonna finish off weakened foes.

I also think the defensive typing is an advantage for allowing banded Lucario to punish Roserade very hard.

Scarf Passimian is the only other FE mon that has Knock off, u-turn, and is a fighting type. These traits of Shao is what made it so great, it would always make progress with knock and u-turn. It also has ok bulk in 100hp/90def/60sdef defense stats.



Heracross more specifically replicates Shao’s wall-breaking Life Orb set but I wasn’t intending on mentioning Hera’s Flame Orb Set. More so I wanted to mention a potential boots set. I remember someone somewhere saying boots Hera was good and has potential in a shaoless metagame.

I think something like this could be used:
Heracross @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Megahorn /Knock Off
- Stone Edge /Knock Off
Although you miss out on FO’s extra power, +2 OHKOS Togekiss, Reun, and Vileplume after rocks (only 87.5% chance). Its speed tier is decent, outspeeding Xurk and the 80 base speed mons. And it’s typing is valuable in the meta rn.

Scarf Passimian fails to outspeed slush rush arctozolt unlike Mienshao which is quite terrible actually and it lacks regenerator. It might be viable though.

Also on a boots Heracross set I'd think you want Guts given that Heracross is a Ground resist and thus susceptible to Toxic.

 

[KaenSoul]

Just like with Zarude, you just dont replace Mienshao, it was unique and most 'replacements' have a distinct niche that arent actually filling the hole Mienshao is about to leave.
I think is too soon to actually predict any outcome, for example Heracross have a fighting type less to compete with but they dont have much in common other than a really strong Close Combat, Heracross isnt a pivot (did you know the only mon with both U-turn and Megahorn is Mew?) and without Mienshao it may have a harder time trying to setup spikes or SD.
And there are the other u-turn mons like Flygon, Crobat, Incineroar and few others, they are good mons but they dont really do the same, like yeah, they may force some common Mienshao switch ins like Geezing for the electricts to Volt switch and u-turn back again, but without Mienshao the Mienshao checks may see less use and the defensive and offensive cores used as answers will change.
And i guess thats the long way to say i have no idea of what is going to happen, maybe is time to use Mienfoo.

 

[odr]

Hi, please dont be fooled by my complete lack of any activity at all on both the forums and the ladder, I really do care a lot about this tier and want it as balanced as possible with SCL around the corner. There is a big problem with this tier though, I would like to resolve it. And no, we're not talking about Reuniclus and we're certainly not talking about Xurkitree (Though i might just post about him too sometime). Today I will be explaining why Durant is broken, because apparently nobody else can fuckin see it but me. (durant certainly cant see it lmao blind bitch)

First of all, this is the set i will be referring to throughout this post:
Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Crunch / Rock Slide

This is all it needs to murder the entire tier. The analysis says Stomping over Crunch fsr but idk, its only a 3/16 chance to kill zero bulk Entei so youre gonna be hitting him twice most of the time anyway. Entei dies to Iron Head into Superpower 100% of the time btw, so it cant switch in on any of Durants moves. Zero bulk Volcanion lives Stomping Tantrum 100% of the time, so youre also hitting him twice either way. This guy dies to First Impression into Superpower 100% of the time (but yes, this guy can switch into Iron Head once or any move if you just dodge aha). Meanwhile, Crunch hits all of Doublade, Metagross, and Chandelure the same as Stomping Tantrum, but also Reuniclus, Celebi (assuming you cant use First Impression for these two, of course), Golurk, Dhelmise, Starmie (relevent because it otherwise thinks it walls the Stomping Tantrum set after burning your First Impression on say, a Stakataka, and will try to switch in), Dhelmise, Bronzong, Xatu, and Decidueye. Literally the only things Stomping Tantrum are good for are Torkoal and catching a Salazzle on the switch. Who the hell even uses Salazzle anyway? Yeah anyway Crunch is way better use that.

So all the fire types get murdered and cant switch in, and most of them get outsped and ohkoed. How about the water types? Well heres a quick wall of calcs for you.

you already know what youre about to see

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Seismitoad: 231-273 (55.7 - 65.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Seismitoad: 205-242 (49.5 - 58.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 231-274 (54.2 - 64.3%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 205-243 (48.1 - 57%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 212-251 (53.9 - 63.8%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 188-224 (53.1 - 63.2%) bye bitch
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Suicune: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Suicune: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 181-213 (45.9 - 54%)​

I'm really gonna lose my shit if i have to start running Bold Resttalk Suicune to counter Durant. There must be something else, right? Well, The only mons that can switch into Durant, outspeed it, and threaten it out are Salazzle, Noivern (it always lives Iron Head with minor investment in bulk), Talonflame, and Crobat (Also requires a bit of bulk to live, and your Brave Bird only does 52-62 but its like good enough along with 2 Life Orb hits i guess. it also gets Heat Wave if you wanna do that instead but physical based Crobat is far more common). This is where that Rock Slide slash comes into play. Yeah, you gotta give up Crunch which does suck for that list of targets above but it can be worth it for a chance to catch the best switch ins. Even with a free switch the list of mons that can outspeed and revenge kill Durant isnt very long, as on top of its brutal strength, it also has a very good base 109 speed stat.

At this point id like to review the viable counterplay to Durant that RU has to offer.

• "I sure hope it doesnt Rock Slide me as i switch into the only thing on my team that can otherwise revenge kill it, lol"
• "Just dodge, lol"
• "Just outplay, lol"

I cant bring myself to list Bold Resttalk Suicune as viable counterplay that mon is SO garbage. To be more serious though, I do understand that Durant has its flaws. Every scenario ive posted is assuming that Durant will connect every attack, and this simply isnt true. Yes, it will miss sometimes, but as the player trying to defend against the Durant you have to play assuming its going to hit. Hoping and praying for misses is not what i consider couterplay, and at the end of the day the Durant is 4 times more likely to connect than it is to miss, which is more than good enough for such a monstrous power boost it gets from Hustle. Its a dice roll, sure, but its in Durants favor every single time. Moving on, its poor bulk doesnt let it switch into a lot, though it can still find opportunities to come in on steels like Regi and Zong, as well as things like Roserade lacking Shadow Ball. It is also prone to getting worn down by hazards and life orb recoil, and this is often times the best counterplay a team will have to offer. These drawbacks can (mostly) be overcome with team support in hazard removal and wish passing.

It really baffles me how little support ive had in getting Durant banned up to this point, but im hoping this post will help this community open their damn eyes. i mean how is everyone just ok with playing a tier with this monster? It comes onto the field and threatens a kill on wayyyyy too many things and has literally, LITERALLY, zero counters. Im speaking to my fellow council members when i say this as well. ive brought up banning this thing multiple times and somehow am receiving very little support for even a suspect test when this thing is just so clearly problematic to me. Like, in my eyes i dont even think its worth a suspect test. If i had it my way id council vote this bitch the fuck out of here. like tell me how you can get to the end of this post and still want to keep Durant in the tier. I really just dont get how I'm the only one seeing this? is it really just me? Am i doing something wrong? How the hell is everyone else countering this thing? PLEASE tell me id LOVE to know. I also really need to sleep so ill stop here bye.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Hi, please dont be fooled by my complete lack of any activity at all on both the forums and the ladder, I really do care a lot about this tier and want it as balanced as possible with SCL around the corner. There is a big problem with this tier though, I would like to resolve it. And no, we're not talking about Reuniclus and we're certainly not talking about Xurkitree (Though i might just post about him too sometime). Today I will be explaining why Durant is broken, because apparently nobody else can fuckin see it but me. (durant certainly cant see it lmao blind bitch)

First of all, this is the set i will be referring to throughout this post:
Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Crunch / Rock Slide

This is all it needs to murder the entire tier. The analysis says Stomping over Crunch fsr but idk, its only a 3/16 chance to kill zero bulk Entei so youre gonna be hitting him twice most of the time anyway. Entei dies to Iron Head into Superpower 100% of the time btw, so it cant switch in on any of Durants moves. Zero bulk Volcanion lives Stomping Tantrum 100% of the time, so youre also hitting him twice either way. This guy dies to First Impression into Superpower 100% of the time (but yes, this guy can switch into Iron Head once or any move if you just dodge aha). Meanwhile, Crunch hits all of Doublade, Metagross, and Chandelure the same as Stomping Tantrum, but also Reuniclus, Celebi (assuming you cant use First Impression for these two, of course), Golurk, Dhelmise, Starmie (relevent because it otherwise thinks it walls the Stomping Tantrum set after burning your First Impression on say, a Stakataka, and will try to switch in), Dhelmise, Bronzong, Xatu, and Decidueye. Literally the only things Stomping Tantrum are good for are Torkoal and catching a Salazzle on the switch. Who the hell even uses Salazzle anyway? Yeah anyway Crunch is way better use that.

So all the fire types get murdered and cant switch in, and most of them get outsped and ohkoed. How about the water types? Well heres a quick wall of calcs for you.

you already know what youre about to see

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Seismitoad: 231-273 (55.7 - 65.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Seismitoad: 205-242 (49.5 - 58.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 231-274 (54.2 - 64.3%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 205-243 (48.1 - 57%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 212-251 (53.9 - 63.8%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 188-224 (53.1 - 63.2%) bye bitch
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Suicune: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Suicune: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 181-213 (45.9 - 54%)​

I'm really gonna lose my shit if i have to start running Bold Resttalk Suicune to counter Durant. There must be something else, right? Well, The only mons that can switch into Durant, outspeed it, and threaten it out are Salazzle, Noivern (it always lives Iron Head with minor investment in bulk), Talonflame, and Crobat (Also requires a bit of bulk to live, and your Brave Bird only does 52-62 but its like good enough along with 2 Life Orb hits i guess. it also gets Heat Wave if you wanna do that instead but physical based Crobat is far more common). This is where that Rock Slide slash comes into play. Yeah, you gotta give up Crunch which does suck for that list of targets above but it can be worth it for a chance to catch the best switch ins. Even with a free switch the list of mons that can outspeed and revenge kill Durant isnt very long, as on top of its brutal strength, it also has a very good base 109 speed stat.

At this point id like to review the viable counterplay to Durant that RU has to offer.

• "I sure hope it doesnt Rock Slide me as i switch into the only thing on my team that can otherwise revenge kill it, lol"
• "Just dodge, lol"
• "Just outplay, lol"

I cant bring myself to list Bold Resttalk Suicune as viable counterplay that mon is SO garbage. To be more serious though, I do understand that Durant has its flaws. Every scenario ive posted is assuming that Durant will connect every attack, and this simply isnt true. Yes, it will miss sometimes, but as the player trying to defend against the Durant you have to play assuming its going to hit. Hoping and praying for misses is not what i consider couterplay, and at the end of the day the Durant is 4 times more likely to connect than it is to miss, which is more than good enough for such a monstrous power boost it gets from Hustle. Its a dice roll, sure, but its in Durants favor every single time. Moving on, its poor bulk doesnt let it switch into a lot, though it can still find opportunities to come in on steels like Regi and Zong, as well as things like Roserade lacking Shadow Ball. It is also prone to getting worn down by hazards and life orb recoil, and this is often times the best counterplay a team will have to offer. These drawbacks can (mostly) be overcome with team support in hazard removal and wish passing.

It really baffles me how little support ive had in getting Durant banned up to this point, but im hoping this post will help this community open their damn eyes. i mean how is everyone just ok with playing a tier with this monster? It comes onto the field and threatens a kill on wayyyyy too many things and has literally, LITERALLY, zero counters. Im speaking to my fellow council members when i say this as well. ive brought up banning this thing multiple times and somehow am receiving very little support for even a suspect test when this thing is just so clearly problematic to me. Like, in my eyes i dont even think its worth a suspect test. If i had it my way id council vote this bitch the fuck out of here. like tell me how you can get to the end of this post and still want to keep Durant in the tier. I really just dont get how I'm the only one seeing this? is it really just me? Am i doing something wrong? How the hell is everyone else countering this thing? PLEASE tell me id LOVE to know. I also really need to sleep so ill stop here bye.

While yeah, durant is a monster when it connects, most people prefer a mon that works more than 80% of the time. Also, it is HEAVILY pressured by hazards, limiting the amount of times it can actually break for the team. The fact that his priority move is one time use also makes him exploitable once the first turn has passed, making sets without crunch more easily checked by Celebi, flygon and reuniclus. Added to that, a lot of very common pivots (like crobat, noivern and weezing g) can take a forced first impression and then switch back to the mon that was targeted by it, taking LO recoil in the process. Can the durant player outplay this? Yea, but that's more of a game to game analysis.

Offense has it a bit more rough, I admit it, but having mons like mimikyu and decent pivots into first impression (again, like crobat and noivern) gives those teams a fighting chance. You also have more niche options like scarf indeedee and scarf heracross, able to force him out and cripple one of the parters of durant on the switch (with trick or knock off, respectively).

Maybe this is a case similar to sigilyph in early RU, where not many people really used that mon but still was called for a suspect test. Idk, I would have to play more and test the little bug a bit more to have a better opinion on the matter

 

[EviGaro]

I completely agree with odr's perspective on Durant, I thought you could easily make the argument prior to Mienshao ban that it was the most broken thing in the meta and I was pretty clear on it being ridiculous in the last NP thread. Problem though when moving forward so decisively on it was that either in Council chat or in both surveys it never quite reached the support it needed, which makes it tricky to push forward with anything (I still think Sharpedo is completely awful for the tier and I hate having to bother with it but WHATEVER).

I do understand where you are coming from Fabi_ODST, but hrm, to take something out of my last post on it, at this point people who've played RU for generations now are probably able to predict how Durant convos can go. Sure, there's a meta where it goes under the radar, but then some time passes and you're like oh wait wtf this has no counterplay now. In your post, I replace Weezing and Crobat with like, Gligar and Milotic and you basically have the no ban argument from SM. It's always sort of technically true that you can fit enough defensive pivots that cover different moves Durant can go for but the problem has always been that it's a gigantic guessing game, and while yes it's also one for Durant it's not the one guessing with which mon I might need but can get absolutely bodied. It's just not quite an equal footing for both players really. But it might have been fine if it was just a really good wallbreaker, but then you add its stupid offence matchup - which got stupider this gen as if it needed it - and yeah, it's basically the same discussion again. Heck I still think Magneton, like in bw, should be ranked since it can guarantee remove Durant in most matchups.

I also understand where odr is coming from with regards to an important tour, but it's really hard to do when people have viable objections and have been willing to talk about them. Durant wasn't so high on the radar last time - majority on both counts was lukewarm on an immediate ban - but I do want to ask if that changed? Or if people still think Xurkitree is more pressing? I can see why people like having Durant in the tier since it does have interesting qualities that makes it an attractive choice that aren't simply lol broken breaker goes in.

 

[Nat]

hello hello, friend of many council members and FORMER ru council member nat here, i think i voted durant the most problematic last time & i would again. odrs post is so good, i couldn't have wrote it better myself. he already addressed what i perceive 2 be the "viable objections" people have to banning durant, but i'll run down thoughts and try 2 add.

1) like odr, i think first and foremost if a mon literally doesn't have beyond 1 or so true viable switchins within the tier and your means of dealing with it are abstract & non-controllable at best, any vague argument about how it's good anti-cheese or takes dmg from hazard is irrelevant. It can't be consistently countered in a variety of archetypes, this is undeniable.

2) it's, to me, in a similar vein to both Entei & Stakataka at the times of their departure/should-have-been departures. i wouldn't say it's as gnarly as durant in USM but it's definitely in-league with the aforementioned two. i don't see why it's particularly different this time around, big breaker who genuinely has little counterplay & outspeeds many pokemon (staka through tr), arguably invalidating certain builds through sheer power. i really, like odr, hate the counter argument of "but it can miss lmao." you can't play like it will in game, unless you hate winning 80% of the time, or unless you're forced into the corner of doing so which either way is just so bad.

3) idt it's offering a particularly necessary role within our tier that would be devastated w/ its absence. we have good offensive steels in lucario/cobalion/metagross/doublade. every one of these steels can hit stuff super-effectively similarly to durants steel/fighting/bug coverage (not any one mon hitting all 3 at once w/ insane power, though). we have fine offensive bugs in the tier w/ pod & cross, with an admittedly limited selection otherwise. we have decent forms of priority for revenging things, especially in the form of golisopod & mmq but other less-centralized mons/move combos as well should your team truly need it. obviously, it has passable phys def & extremely poor spdef, so nobody is missing it as a defensive piece either. it's just this mostly-hitting god of damage and unwallability.

4) hazard control in ru rn is arguably the best ru has quite literally seen...ever? there's like 8 extremely viable removers. durant definitely is susceptible to hazards if they're A) up and B) durant has LO, but imo keeping them off has never been easier. pretty sure it's more than 8 lol.

i'm not as passionate for the boot as odr but if i had my way i'd still council vote on it, nothing else rlly stands out. i think a public suspect would be pointless given the timing, and i think it's worth voting on for the sake of SCL given we have 4 weeks(5?) of this meta before the real shifts hit the tier. if it stays i suspect it'd see a lot of play since it's easily worth the risk of hitting a few crucial ones to potentially, w/ still good play, win a game easier than using anything else in the tier. it'll be fun to see how this is handled among council regardless of result.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

I do understand where you are coming from Fabi_ODST, but hrm, to take something out of my last post on it, at this point people who've played RU for generations now are probably able to predict how Durant convos can go. Sure, there's a meta where it goes under the radar, but then some time passes and you're like oh wait wtf this has no counterplay now. In your post, I replace Weezing and Crobat with like, Gligar and Milotic and you basically have the no ban argument from SM. It's always sort of technically true that you can fit enough defensive pivots that cover different moves Durant can go for but the problem has always been that it's a gigantic guessing game, and while yes it's also one for Durant it's not the one guessing with which mon I might need but can get absolutely bodied. It's just not quite an equal footing for both players really. But it might have been fine if it was just a really good wallbreaker, but then you add its stupid offence matchup - which got stupider this gen as if it needed it - and yeah, it's basically the same discussion again. Heck I still think Magneton, like in bw, should be ranked since it can guarantee remove Durant in most matchups.

I agree with this for the most part, and playing with durant for a bit it does feel menacing for most playstyles, specially offense. I just found it more manageable compared to the previous times it has been suspect tested, so I wasn't so sold on a public suspect test and felt like stuff like xurk are more opressive in the short run. It's probably just observation bias though, as I haven't been as active recently.

 

[Oathkeeper]

God Save the Queen

We got a thing and it's................



While it's not its male counterpart, Queen is still a nice addition to the meta imo. With it being another Ground type with access to Stealth Rock AND Toxic Spikes, it can fit on teams needing that + a wallbreaker at the same time due to Sheer Force. Perhaps something like......

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

I'm sure there can be an EV spread that gives her more bulk, but we literally just got her lol. Dual STABs + Ice Beam for stuff like Flygon and Crobat. I'm sure you could run other coverage moves like Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, etc, but I feel this could be the go-to at least for the time being! As with pretty much any special attacker we have, it's walled by stuff like Porygon2, Umbreon, and AV Reuniclus, but I digest. Good addition to the meta imo.​

 

[KaenSoul]

Nidoqueen is cool but is slower than Xurki and takes too much from Energy Ball, also i wouldnt run Modest Queen because of Metagross and Toxtri, but it checks scald-less Raikou and is bulky enough to Survive a +2 Shadow Claw from Mimikyu without investment.
And is another Poison type that cant check Lucario.

252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 140-165 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 80 SpD Nidoqueen: 127-150 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 261-308 (81 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 191-226 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 253-300 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If it was a bit faster it would be a good offensive check to them but she still looks like a good mon, is really hard to switch into and is a ToxicSpiker that doesnt give free switchs to other poison and steel types.

 

[Yourwelcomethanku]

God Save the Queen

We got a thing and it's................



While it's not its male counterpart, Queen is still a nice addition to the meta imo. With it being another Ground type with access to Stealth Rock AND Toxic Spikes, it can fit on teams needing that + a wallbreaker at the same time due to Sheer Force. Perhaps something like......

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

I'm sure there can be an EV spread that gives her more bulk, but we literally just got her lol. Dual STABs + Ice Beam for stuff like Flygon and Crobat. I'm sure you could run other coverage moves like Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, etc, but I feel this could be the go-to at least for the time being! As with pretty much any special attacker we have, it's walled by stuff like Porygon2, Umbreon, and AV Reuniclus, but I digest. Good addition to the meta imo.​

Crunch hits AV Reuniclus if you can afford to not run Stealth Rock this also hits Bronzong.

Calcs

0- Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 205-244 (48.4 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 146-172 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Modest seems better because Toxtricity isn't very good currently and Metagross does not often run max speed. Toxic Spikes are probably not going to be very good considering RU has boots, immunities, now Nidoqueen for a good absorber alongside Roserade which already existed. In terms of teammates putting Nidoqueen with one of the fast flying pivots Crobat or Talonflame seems quite good considering they lure in Steel- and Rock-types.

EDIT: Feliburn pointed out that Modest is slower than Volcanion which is very important so yeah you can run Timid and it might be better.