Metagame NP: RU Stage 7 - Blinding Lights

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phantom

Banned deucer.


Finally, the long-awaited tier shifts are here!

Rhyperior up to UU
Zarude up to UU
Ninetales-A down to RU
Quagsire down to PU
Polteageist up to RU
Flygon up to RU
Politoed up to RU

So we got some pretty big shakeups. Starting with Zarude, we lost one of the most influential Pokémon in the tier. With Zarude out of the way, we can expect to see many Ghost and Psychic types rising in viability, notably Golurk, Dhelmise, Reuniclus, Mimikyu, and Celebi. There’s a noticeable dearth of Ghost resists with Zarude gone. Inciniroar will perhaps rise even more in usage, and we can maybe expect some lower tier Dark types getting popular to fill in the gaps. Rhyperior is also a significant rise, given it was one of the most effective Stealth Rock users in the tier. Without Rhyperior, other Rock-types like Diancie and maybe even Gigalith have a chance to make their way onto more teams.

The drops are far less consequential, but do give the tier some good options to use on less common playstyles. Ninetale-Alola is looking to be the best hail setter this tier will ever get. It has great speed and a wide variety of support moves including Aurora Veil. Arctozolt is still as threatening as ever, but now it has a setter that can pull its weight against much of the meta, so perhaps hail will get some usage in the same vein rain and sun have been getting. Quagsire provides a nice buff to stall teams, doubling up as an Unaware user that blocks Volt Switch and counters Raikou. Stall will likely remain a fringe playstyle, but Quagsire does provide some much-needed role compression.

And now, with the newly-anointed RU Pokémon. After wreaking havoc in the screens meta, Polteageist is continuing to enjoy more usage ever since its Strength Sap set rose in popularity. Even though it could defeat Zarude, it now has more flexibility to employ different EV spreads, making it slightly more effective. Flygon is finally back in RU and has enjoyed increased usage since the start of RUPL. Its well-rounded stats and versatility continue to make it a threat in the RU meta and fixture on many teams. Since Barraskewda dropped, rain has been surging in usage on the ladder and experiencing some tour play as well. With Zarude gone, this could work to benefit rain even more, but the presence of a strong hail setter could stop this trend from rising any further.

Council minutes:

:ss/Xurkitree:

The council has been discussing the possibility of suspecting Xurkitree. Xurkitree’s boots set has been seeing continued usage since RUPL and circumvents conventional counterplay to its Scarf set. Many feel that Xurkitree exacerbates the already predominant boots VoltTurn strategies in this tier, given that it has the strongest Volt Switch and best coverage options. Of the three best Electric-types, Xurkitree is arguably the most difficult to deal with given its ability to KO almost every viable Ground-type. Xurkitree’s snowball potential curtesy of beast boost also makes misreads quite punishable as well.

The council, however, isn’t in a rush to suspect Xurkitree, so we’d like to hear your thoughts. Do you think Xurkitree should be suspected? Do you think it’s bad for the meta? Is there anything else you think is worth looking at? We’ll be closely monitoring the changes from the tier shifts and see if any additional tiering decisions are necessary, but for now, we’d like to provide the playerbase with the opportunity to offer their input so we can then take the appropriate course of action.
 
It has a Speed tier lower than Heracross and doesn't have the stats to survive hits it's forced to take if it doesn't run Choice Scarf to remedy how slow it is. It struggles against Roserade, a common spiker, and Vileplume, a common defensive answer to Mienshao. Choice sets are easily manageable and HDB sets are easily outsped and beaten. Its bulk is painfully mediocre and it's literally the slowest practical user of Choice Scarf in the tier.

Toxtricity is far more threatening as an Electric in the tier despite being slower, and actually has a move to hit Alolan Marowak, which completely and totally walls Xurkitree. Call Alolawak C+ rank if you want to, it doesn't change the fact that it's an RU poke that renders Xurkitree helpless, while other Electrics like Raikou and Toxtricity have a move for it. But let's not make it just about Alolawak either. The other Electrics here just have better offensive coverage in general. Not even bad players will leave Gastrodon out against Xurkitree, it's obvious and played out.

Notable pokes from the RU speed tier list that outrun Boots Xurkitree and pose immediate danger or will win 1v1 if it doesn't Volt after being hit:

Heracross without needing Scarf, Toxicroak, Roserade, Porygon-Z, Obstagoon, Sharpedo before Speed Boosts, Darmanitan without needing Scarf, Indeedee without needing Scarf, Mimikyu, the increasingly popular Flygon, Celebi, Ninetales, Durant, Salazzle, Noivern, Aerodactyl

Celebi and Dhelmise in particular will likely see more use with the absence of Zarude, which only makes Xurkitree more difficult to operate.


Xurkitree cannot sweep teams because Scarf sets are easy to wall after it has chosen its move, and non-Scarf sets are easy to outrun and kill. So no, I do not think it's worthy of a suspect. We have more threatening stuff than this. I'm WAY more scared to switch into Toxtricity than Xurkitree.

Edit: I realized my post was unnecessarily inflammatory so I removed some parts
 
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henlo

:ss/ninetales-alola:
WOOO snow fox :wow: :amaze:

i know xurktiree is the hot topic, but i wanted to take some time out to talk about the only RU drop in these tier shifts, ninetales' alolan cousin.
at first glance, Alolatales doesn't look like it'll be doing much in a post-light clay meta.

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as it turns out, Alolatales CAN function decently in the RU metagame in different ways.
Ninetales-Alola @ Heavy-Duty Boots/ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Freeze-Dry
- Encore/ Moonblast
- Hypnosis

The Classic Alolatales set still functions well even in a post clay meta, since Alolatales has a good support movepool with hypnosis and encore to ensure safe switchins for veil abusers such as polteageist and Slurpuff along great speed backing it up. This particular set works especially well in tandem with arctozolt, especially when icy rock is equipped. However, it suffers from the main drawback of being solely a Hyper Offense tool, which while still has a decent niche in the metagame is still not nearly as good as it once was. Overall this is a major buff to hail and provides an alternative to regular screens setters.

Ninetales-Alola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Blizzard
- Moonblast
- Dark Pulse

This is the set that actually got me interested in Ninetales-Alola right after its drop. Of course Alolatales doesnt have the most impressive Special Attack stat out there, but lack of special attack is somewhat remedied by a good boosting in Nasty Plot along with a powerful, spammable STAB move (atleast under hail) in Blizzard and a good secondary STAB in Moonblast to provide a potent dual stab combo. Dark Pulse is the coverage option of choice to hit pokemon like Metagross and Chandelure for super-effective damage. Coupled with a good speed stat and boots, Alolatales has potential to blast many a hole through a team. Of course, this set has it hard against steels not called metagross, so you want to have something can chip steels into range for it to kill.

Ninetales-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast
- Dark Pulse

Yes, it doesn't have boots. Specs Alolatales chooses to forego the hazards immunity of nasty plot and attack with more outright power. Specs also has the option to use freeze dry to damage waters, something nasty plot doesn't usually manage to fit. What sets it apart from pokemon like specs vanilluxe is the higher speed tier, allowing it to outspeed a bigger portion of the metagame. However, its still probably the most fringe of the Alolatales sets due to its high maintenance cost and difficulty to bring in.

OVERALL

Honestly, My first impression of Alolan Ninetales is that it will be a decent pokemon in this metagame. It doesnt have the stats to become a top-tier wallbreaker and with the ban of light clay, its niche with Aurora Veil has also been diminished. However, its potent dual stab combo and good support movepool may be enough for it to stay in the RU tier and continue to ply its trade.

(celebi is ew)

K thanks bye
 
For some reason, I thought we could only talk about Xurkitree here so that's all I talked about. I might post about Quagsire here later; I am the only player I know of in this meta who uses mainly defensive teams and feels okay publicly saying so. For now I can confidently say that pretty much any physical setup sweeper in the tier without a Grass move is pretty solidly stopped by HDB Quag, but it still gets 2HKOed by LO/Band Mienshao and Obstagoon. If it's able to get up a Curse boost though, they can't break it without crits. TR teams may begin incorporating Power Whip Copperajah if its usage increases, but that may be a stretch. Mimikyu may run Wood Hammer to ensure not being held up by Quag during a SD sweep because it otherwise will be.

Thanks for bearing with me, I'm somewhat new to the forums.

Dark Pulse is the coverage option of choice to hit pokemon like Metagross and Chandelure for super-effective damage.
Yeah NP Alolatales is surprisingly bonkers for its mediocre SpA.

+2 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 276-326 (105.7 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Metagross requires some chip for the kill, but it has Bullet Punch for revenge killing or an instant OHKO after coming in on the NP so I personally wouldn't give much gravity to that poke in the Dark Pulse calcs.

This might be worth a mention though:

+2 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Dark Pulse vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 298-352 (95.5 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Not sure how many people actually run 212 HP but that's apparently standard. It doesn't have to speed creep for Rhyperior anymore so there's that.
 
Here's a mon that has potential use in the metagame as a decent wallbreaker:
Galarian Form
Rapidash-Galar
The Fairy/Psychic dual STAB is very useful to spam in this metagame. Although there's a large amount of viable steel types in RU, none of them have good recovery and get worn down quick by coverage moves. Choice Band Low Kick deals 50.2-59.3% to Max SpDf Steelix, and High Horsepower deals 56.5-67% to Max HP Metagross. The speed tier of 105 is also really good for a wallbreaker right now.

Rapidash-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Pastel Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Zen Headbutt
- High Horsepower
- Low Kick

That's what I use ^
 

Feliburn

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
RU Leader


Ok, during the last meta this mon was absolutely dumb. The common cores all got ripped apart by Xurk because of it's fantastic coverage, being able to hit Togekiss, Rhyperior, Zarude, Milotic, Gastrodon, and whatever other used mon u can think of. It's popularity also has to do with the fact that Roserade's popularity at the time wasn't that high. I think from what I remember, Rose started to drop in usage in the last couple of months.

Now, looking at this new Zarudeless meta, I'm not exactly sure what to think, because Celebi is starting to see usage, and people are scared of ghost types so Umbreon is being used as well (I'll digress on if it's good or bad) so there's a level of natural adaptation in the tier in terms of viable mons. I'm still terrified of it, boots sets are just way too annoying when you are trying to use bulkier stuff, but looking at the new meta, there's a chance it might be kept in check. I'll probably come back to this mon in a couple of weeks, as RULT is right around the corner, and I'm sure we'll be able to see more competitive teams.



s/o GoldCat for passing me a team with this demon and showing me the light. With Zarude gone, Reuniclus finds so many opportunities to set up with calm mind sets, becoming an incredibly annoying set up sweeper. Incineroar is like, the more viable offensive check to it, and even then it can't hit it as hard as Zarude, so depending on the situation, you might have to trade your Incineroar, for a medium-sized chunk of reuni's HP. I think this mon will become a top tier threat soon, tho going back to my previous point, Celebi rising in usage could also mean an offensive NP breaker that could come on top vs it as it sets up, unless it's the cteaming shadow ball set.

I don't have much to say about Ninetales, I think ice coverage is always scary, and it has a decent speed tier, so I'd probs use it as a NP breaker if anything. People using NP Dark Pulse is kinda cool for Bronzong. Obviously, having Aurora Veil as a one turn set up for screens gives it back some viability, but probably nothing that will get out of hand... right?

Idk if I'm a fan of the meta, I think we are still kind of in the air when it comes to tier identity, tho at the same time I like the different teams people are coming up with. Looking forward to RULT.
 
With the new availability of Quagsire here, and with Zarude and Rhyperior being gone from the meta, I have been gathering information to add a post to this thread about what pokes are good defensively in current RU to me, and why.


quagsire.gif


I'll start with Quagsire. Despite its unimpressive stats, it is quite the physical wall with its one weakness to Grass (Freeze-Dry breaks this mold but yeah) and ability to ignore the foe's stat boosts. The only physically inclined attackers in the tier capable of 2HKOing it are Obstagoon, Flame Orb Guts Heracross, and LO/Band Mienshao, but if it gets up just a single Curse boost, they lose to it also. Cloyster, Metagross, Doublade, Cobalion, Flygon, Slurpuff, Stakataka, Toxicroak, physical Lucario, physical Sharpedo, Scarf Mienshao, Tyrantrum, Golurk, Mimikyu, Glastrier, Aerodactyl, Snorlax, and Alolawak all get absolutely folded by this thing. Mimikyu is beaten outright unless it opts to carry Wood Hammer. Surprise special Flygon sets obviously beat it with Giga Drain. Some unorthodox Metagross sets with Grass Knot can obviously win. Necrozma easily muscles past Quagsire regardless of physical or special approach because Photon Geyser bypasses Unaware, so it will always lose to that. Banded Barraskewda has a slight chance to 2HKO with Liquidation if rocks are up, but I wouldn't count on it. Rest can be run on Curse sets to circumvent Toxic, even if you also run Recover, but if you don't, Quag appreciates cleric support. More on Umbreon later.

Special attackers generally pressure the fuck out of Quagsire and will beat it down fairly easily, so it should avoid them. It does, however, scare Raikou and Salazzle if its health is still high and it can swap into both with Toxic being the only thing worth worrying about. Quagsire isn't afraid of their Calm Mind or Nasty Plot boosts if it needs to come in on either of them, and it threatens them with Earthquake.


I tried Stockpile and it is not that great but can allow you to also slowly beat some special attackers you otherwise wouldn't. A set with Curse, Amnesia, Rest, and one attack can be absolutely devastating to tons of teams once their Grass attacker is down or if they don't have one. You have to be careful with the attack you choose though, because both of its STABs have immunities carried by common RU pokes. Ice Punch guarantees you will be able to hit everything but it will take a lot longer to win and leaves you struggling against Cloyster, which feels like shit. You'll also lose 100% to Suicune if you happen to run into one, but that's apparently "unviable" right now, even with Zarude gone. Go figure.

As for the inevitable comparisons it will see with Seismitoad and Gastrodon, this is the only Water/Ground that can act as both a blob and a snowballing sweeper.

Overall, very solid and reliable physical wall that checks a ton of things. It makes people mad. Zarude left at a good time for it to put in work.



quagsire.gif
vileplume.gif
snorlax.gif


The Quagsire + Vileplume + Snorlax defensive core I use is absolutely disgusting right now. There's really nothing out there that can break through these three. All the things that would beat two out of the three get destroyed by the third one, except for maybe a well-played Specs Gardevoir with Psyshock and Energy Ball, but there are other teammates that can help with that. The worst that can happen against Chandelure is that Snorlax gets Tricked a Scarf, but that issue is remedied by adding another bulky teammate like Incineroar or maybe incorporating something fast enough to take out Chandelure after it sacrifices its Speed to cripple you; Snorlax still beats the Chandelure 1v1 either way. Darkest Lariat notably allows Snorlax to muscle past CM Reuniclus. Something uncommon like Coil Centiskorch could probably beat this core, I guess, but the main meta definitely has problems with it.



umbreon.gif


Though very predictable, fully specially defensive Umbreon is actually very good right now. It greatly eases the pressure of Ghost spam from the likes of Chandelure and Polteageist, and it also is the best Wish passer and cleric in the meta if you're using a bulky team. You just have to be very careful with your double switches if the opponent has a Cobalion, but a teammate in Quagsire patches that up nicely. It might be worth noting that Foul Play assures the KO against a smashed Polteageist regardless of potential Strength Sap shenanigans because it can't set up without also doubling its Attack stat, and Foul Play uses the target's own Attack in damage calculation. It also hits Metagross and the increasingly popular Dhelmise very hard.



marowak-alola.gif


I'll get some flak for this, but specially defensive Alolan Marowak is a really nice boon for bulky, defensively oriented teams. This is why I don't give a fuck about opposing Xurkitree. Rather than act as a physical powerhouse, it can use its typing and Lightning Rod ability to serve as a team glue that puts a stop to common threats in the tier while also providing support with Stealth Rock and Knock Off, and effortlessly getting a Toxic off against the incoming Gastrodon, expecting to tank a strong hit instead. All bullshit aside, you can honestly forgo Thick Club for HDB for this defensive purpose because the idea isn't to break through anything. Full special bulk investment assures surviving Earth Power from Gastrodon, so you can get off another support move. It will also always survive Scald or Shadow Ball from Raikou, or even Specs Draco Meteor from Noivern. Its bulk is honestly very underrated. I love how Xurkitree just cries in front of Alolawak, can't even Volt out, it has to hard switch and boy does it hate doing that against something slower. I strongly recommend running this if Xurkitree honestly bothers you that much.

Other pokes Alolawak effortlessly walls and gets free turns against include Toxtricity (Snarl does exist but it hates having it and hates clicking it, you have to outplay them), Ribombee, Galvantula, Roserade, Rotom-C, Galvantula, Vileplume, Registeel, Galarian Weezing, Sylveon, Salazzle, Cobalion (unless it has Stone Edge, but fuck it, partner this with Quagsire lol), and Alolan Ninetales. Honestly, if Alolawak manages to set Stealth Rock, knock off an item, and Toxic a Gastrodon, to me it's done enough for the battle. And the Gastrodon ALWAYS comes in on the Toxic, it's magic I swear.




xatu.gif


With the newfound absence of Zarude and Rhyperior, Magic Bounce Xatu is more viable than ever as an anti-hazard mon for several reasons, which I'll list:

  • The pivoting option many players are replacing Zarude with is Celebi, which happens to also be a rocker, which Xatu hard-walls effortlessly

  • Steelix, a consistent rocks setter, cannot touch it at all, and is weak to Xatu's Heat Wave

  • Roserade, a consistent Spikes setter, is put down by Heat Wave (or OHKOed by Psyshock) and can only very carefully hit back with Sludge Bomb

  • Metagross, a consistent rocks setter, is weak to Xatu's Heat Wave (CB and Bullet Punch variants can be an issue but if it's running that, it probably isn't a rocker anyway lol)

  • Seismitoad, a consistent rocks setter, is destroyed by Xatu's Giga Drain

  • Bronzong, an underdog rocks setter that's making more appearance again recently, cannot touch it at all and gets beaten by Heat Wave

  • Heracross, a poke that sometimes carries Spikes, is destroyed by Psyshock and has its Close Combat and Earthquake walled

  • It outclasses Espeon in this role by having access to U-turn/Teleport, twice the PP on its healing move, a Ground immunity, and a resistance to Grass which would be used by the hazard setters Celebi and Roserade, it's also not weak to Ribombee's Bug Buzz
The only hazard setters Xatu fears are Stakataka, Galvantula, ...and Alolan Marowak if you count that. I recommend running a specially bulky Colbur Berry Xatu with Heat Wave, Giga Drain, Roost, and Teleport. Psyshock can OHKO Roserade if you'd rather run that over Giga Drain and run a faster spread with the remaning EVs in physical bulk instead, at the cost of not being able to OHKO Seismitoad and Gastrodon.


I'll post more thoughts as the meta develops. I sense that Steelix is losing viability, but it's debatable at best for now.
 
I wanna make an honest case for a Pokemon that many will probably say is unviable, and I'm not saying it isn't, but I think it's definitely worth taking a look at: Eldegoss

4mjpj0d0hn531.png


This thing is unironically an actual good special wall, like no joke. 120 base special defense and regenerator is kinda sick, and it gets a ton of fun support moves to go for too. Aromatherapy, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Rapid Spin, Synthesis... you can use it really well for that role.

Eldegoss @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Leech Seed
- Rapid Spin
- Aromatherapy/Energy Ball/Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder

This packs so much utility into one Pokemon. It stuffs :Xurkitree:, :Milotic:, :Raikou:, :Noivern:, :Gastrodon:, :Seismitoad:, :Flygon: not locked into U-turn, :Klefki:... pretty much any Pokemon that isn't a physical attacker with a super effective move. It forces tons of switches, giving you a free opportunity to Leech Seed or Sleep Powder a new foe. It does not care about getting Toxic'd, and can cure that plus any of the paralysis or poison any of your other Pokemon may care about. It barely cares about rocks, webs, almost always has an opportunity to get a spin off, and while the speed boost doesnt help a ton, it can come in handy on some occasions. Tons of people have try to set up on it, cause they don't know what to expect, but they end up getting Leech Seeded or put to sleep, which causes a ton of problems for them :D.

You can choose to forgo aromatherapy if you have a solid Heal Bell user, and pick an attacking move, either Giga Drain or Energy Ball depending on if you want action or more recovery.

It's got some problems, like being very passive and struggling against grasses/ghosts that resist grass like :Chandelure:, :Marowak-Alola: and :Doublade:, but it has a ton of great tools that make it actually decent in this metagame!
 
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I wanna make an honest case for a Pokemon that many will probably say is unviable, and I'm not saying it is, but I think it's definitely worth taking a look at: Eldegoss

View attachment 356525


This thing is unironically an actual good special wall, like no joke. 120 base special defense and regenerator is kinda sick, and it gets a ton of fun support moves to go for too. Aromatherapy, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Rapid Spin, Synthesis... you can use it really well for that role.

Eldegoss @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Leech Seed
- Rapid Spin
- Aromatherapy/Energy Ball/Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder

This packs so much utility into one Pokemon. It stuffs :Xurkitree:, :Milotic:, :Raikou:, :Noivern:, :Gastrodon:, :Seismitoad:, :Flygon: not locked into U-turn, :Klefki:... pretty much any Pokemon that isn't a physical attacker with a super effective move. It forces tons of switches, giving you a free opportunity to Leech Seed or Sleep Powder a new foe. It does not care about getting Toxic'd, and can cure that plus any of the paralysis or poison any of your other Pokemon may care about. It barely cares about rocks, webs, almost always has an opportunity to get a spin off, and while the speed boost doesnt help a ton, it can come in handy on some occasions. Tons of people have try to set up on it, cause they don't know what to expect, but they end up getting Leech Seeded or put to sleep, which causes a ton of problems for them :D.

You can choose to forgo aromatherapy if you have a solid Heal Bell user, and pick an attacking move, either Giga Drain or Energy Ball depending on if you want action or more recovery.

It's got some problems, like being very passive and struggling against grasses/ghosts that resist grass like :Chandelure:, :Marowak-Alola: and :Doublade:, but it has a ton of great tools that make it actually decent in this metagame!
I actually had an Eldegoss phase earlier this gen (before I fell in love with Vileplume) and not many people were a fan, but it's nice to see someone else appreciate the defensive stuff I do. It's actually very bulky and has nice role compression with Regenerator, Rapid Spin, and Aromatherapy. I would never run it without Giga Drain though. People who want to try something like this but a bit more offensive can try Tsareena, which has more Speed and offensive prowess, and also Knock Off and U-turn, at the cost of less bulk and no auto-recovery upon switching.

That said, Vileplume is definitely the top defensive Grass right now but Eldegoss is better as a bulky support than people give it credit for. It switches into Earthquake and Psychic/Psyshock way more safely if nothing else. It's just major Roserade bait and you won't be able to spin away the Spikes safely, which is something really important against it now that didn't exist back when I played around with it.

I haven't experimented with it lately but I know it's hard to justify over Tsareena/Dhelmise as a spinner and hard to justify over Vileplume as a wall.
 
The problem I have with that list of checked Pokemon: it's not particularly special. Other Grass-types in Roserade and Celebi handle the Water- and Electric-types and outspeed Xurkitree, forcing it to use Volt Switch as they, well, switch in if it wants momentum. I'm hesitant to count Flygon, U-turn fiend that it is, Noivern's Flamethrower does respectable damage, Klefki loves having a bunch of turns to do its thing. While there's certainly a place for annoying little Grass-type balls of utility, Eldegoss's overall very low immediate threat level gives the opponent plenty of time to figure out what it's running and form a plan. Roserade can similarly use Sleep Powder while better suiting proactive teams, while Celebi is basically a U-turning utility knife. I'd like to see Eldegoss action in fairly competent games, where its Leech Seed and Sleep Powder are allegedly so problematic.
 
The problem I have with that list of checked Pokemon: it's not particularly special. Other Grass-types in Roserade and Celebi handle the Water- and Electric-types and outspeed Xurkitree, forcing it to use Volt Switch as they, well, switch in if it wants momentum. I'm hesitant to count Flygon, U-turn fiend that it is, Noivern's Flamethrower does respectable damage, Klefki loves having a bunch of turns to do its thing. While there's certainly a place for annoying little Grass-type balls of utility, Eldegoss's overall very low immediate threat level gives the opponent plenty of time to figure out what it's running and form a plan. Roserade can similarly use Sleep Powder while better suiting proactive teams, while Celebi is basically a U-turning utility knife. I'd like to see Eldegoss action in fairly competent games, where its Leech Seed and Sleep Powder are allegedly so problematic.
Noivern's Flamethrower is for all intents and purposes a 4HKO (252 SpA Noivern Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eldegoss: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), at which point you've already Leech Seeded it and you're getting 18% recovery each turn. Klefki will get seeded, its spikes spinned away, and its status aromatherapy'd.

Obviously Eldegoss isn't the premier grass in the tier, Roserade is better than it at sleep and a good amount of other things too. If Sludge Roserade loses its item it starts to get worn down by hazards too much (and has worse bulk). Celebi I feel isn't completely comparable as they do different things. Eldegoss is fun cause it never dies due to Leech Seed + Regenerator, it can remove hazards, and its a cutesy little Pokemon if you wanna be one of those people who are QuIRKy anD DIfFeREnt I guess. In no way is the weed grandma an S tier mon on the rankings, but it for sure has a usable place and its not a waste of a team slot. I would post replays but I will admit A) I am not super high ladder meaning my games (and Eldegoss's viability) can for sure be questioned and B) I literally don't know how to get replays. You make good points though :)
 

KaenSoul

Shared:Power Little Knight
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Community Leader
I have been playing a lot this tier since the shift and i must say is pretty fun and balanced, nothing looks broken.
Im not the best player but got to the 1500 elo rank (and got stuck there) with an alt and there are some mons i want to talk about.
:Mimikyu:
Without Zarude most teams in the ladder become ghost weak, and people need to adapt, it was either Incineroar or nothing as their Chandelure/Mimikyu check. I was using a team with Mimikyu as a lategame cleaner and there isnt much that can handle it.
:Celebi:
NP Celebi is pretty good, it take advantage of all those Xurki, Raikou, bulky waters and rain teams and has a nice speed tier, just pair it with Crobat or something than can take all those u-turns, not much resist Grass stab + Psychic + Earth Power, after all Bronzong isnt that popular and even then, it cant really beat NP Celebi without Toxic most of the time. And it murders stall.
:Bronzong:
Speaking of Bronzong it isnt that bad of a mon outside of a shitty Celebi check, is a fine rocker and body press + iron defense allow it to not be dead weight and actually deal some damage and take some teams by surprise, as it works as an Incineroar lure.
:Raikou:
Without Rhyperior and Zarude i think the best coverage move now is Shadow Ball, people are using Celebi, Dhelmise, Marowak-A and other ghost-weak mons as their electric check to handle Xuki and Toxic take care of everything else but Roserade. Is the best mon in the tier if you ask me.
:Suicune:
Without Zarude it become much better, sub protect cm can set up on a lot of stuff and pp stall many checks, even stuff like Roserade stop being a check after a few turns if you arent careful. Toxic Raikou can ruin the life of the water/grounds and leave the oponent without a Suicune check.
 
Hello everyone!

After playing the RU well since the new shifts I wanted to give my impressions on what has become better with the Zarude/Rhyperior raise. I don't have the absolute truth but I tried to be as objective as possible.





Reuniculus benefits enormously from the rise of Zarude who was the main Dark type in the teams. Its main niche being the Assault Vest set, I think the set with Calm Mind really becomes a huge threat and will force the Gastrodon/Milotic to play like phazers. I don't have much to say other than that the teams are not necessarily well prepared for this set yet but with the lack of solid dark type (with the exception of Incineroar) Reuniculus is likely to become one of the set up sweepers of the tier.




Here is another category of Pokemon that has gained a lot of potential with the rise of Zarude: the Ghost Types (especially those with sprites above).

First of all let's start with Golurk, it's very simple it lost one of the only Pokémon that can switch on his STAB. The Band set is very threatening to most teams and it's not that hard to make it work because you just need to play a Pokémon that can turn on steels/diancie like Crobat/Noivern for Golurk to do huge damage on the opposing team.

For Mimikyu it's a bit more minimal, he simply lost the only dark that was faster than him allowing Mimikyu to no longer trade his ability to be able to kill him and get revenge kill. He becomes an even more powerful option in Hyper-offense or Bulky Offense.

Finally, the absence of Dark Type will indirectly make Polteageist better. Zarude was probably his best check with Incineroar and now that Zarude is gone many teams don't have a Dark Type which will make Polteageist easier to use.



For Celebi I will make it shorter because there is not much to say. Basically the Pokemon had a good niche because it could check Xurkitree and Raikou, his main problem was that Zarude totally destroyed it and given its use it was very hard to use it without this niche. Now that Zarude is gone Celebi is for me the main Type Grass in RU. His Nasty Plot set gives a huge break to the defensive teams, especially the Stalls, which I'll talk about now.



Quagsire was literally the only thing missing for Stall to become a real nuisance in RU, now that he's here we really need to consider this archetype in the building. I'm not going to talk about the pokémon itself because most of you will assume how it works, but more about the archetype and its tons of options. So first of all I find Stall in RU really strong because there are many defensive Winconditions that allow Stall to win games easily: CM Reuniculus/Cresselia/Xatu, Nasty Plot Togekiss/Celebi, Iron Defense Registeel, there are really a lot of ways to put one in the Stalls. After that the archetype has a very solid structure. You can easily have a very solid Steel Type like Registeel, a very good Cleric like Umbreon, Sylveon, Togekiss or Vaporeon so it's very easy to vary your options to avoid being repetitive. Finally you have a multitude of Pokémon that can complete your team and avoid certain weaknesses: Xatu, Ditto, Shedinja, Articuno, Vileplume, Talonflamme, Cresselia and I could go on. Stall is a threat now and if ever the archetype becomes really harmful in RU, you don't have to make 100000 suspects and just deal with Quagsire.



Anyone who has played SM will understand why I mention this Pokémon. It's probably the only one on this list that will really benefit from the rise of Rhyperior. Currently Xatu with his 7th generation set (the one for outspeed Roserade) is really good. In a meta dominated by many Steel Types as Stealth Rock Setter like Registeel, Metagross or Cobalion the Pokemon has a very good niche. It also needs to prevent Spikes from some really strong Pokémon in RU like Roserade or Klefki in Hyper Offense.



Well I don't have much to say here but with the rise of Zarude the not very played Dark Types will just be used more here. Little mention for Scrafty who for me has chances to be played considering the defensive value he can bring in some teams.



I don't have much to say here too just that now that Zarude is gone Raikou has more options in his moveset as he is no longer forced to play Aurasphere in 90% of the games. Scald, Shadow Ball, Extrasensory and Aurasphere become equally viable options and this may allow Raikou to become more versatile than before.



Ok so this part is purely subjective but I invite you to read it if you are interested.

Let's start with Ninetales, first of all forget the Aurora Veil setter, with the ban of the Light Clay it's just bad to play this. An offensive set with the Choice Specs or Nasty Plot boots are probably better. Also Ninetales is not pretty bad, this Pokémon has a very good niche against offensive teams having only Cobalion as Steel Type because with your STAB and Choice Specs you destroy the opposing team. If you ever want to play a Hail I recommend you to play it just with Arctozolt because it is not worth to play big hail.

Well now let's go to Xurkitree, you should know that before the shifts I was part of the pro-bans because the Pokemon was ridiculously strong. Now with the rise of Zarude and the emergence of Celebi, Roserade, Vileplume as main Grass Type Xurkitree becomes indirectly less strong. The best set is the Choice Scarf to be able to clean games which makes it easier to manage than the old meta with Zarude and his weakness to Dazzling Gleam. The pokémon remains strong there is no more doubt but NOT BANWORTHY with the use of the new grass


Thanks for reading me and hoping I could help some. Sorry if my English is not perfect I hope everyone will understand me. If someone have a question about this don't hesitate to tag me in the RU Discord
 
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Denial

formerly Lunala
is a Past WCoP Champion
I really think Xurkitree and Mienshao need to go if we want the tier to growth in a decent direction. All of you know my rants about Boots and how they impact the tier, but if we have to play by those rules we def need to balance around those. When the VoltTurn cores themself are composed by stupid strong Pokemon like Xurkitree and Mienshao you force your opponent in an awkward position where you potentially kill a mon or VoltTurn into your even more strong breaker and get a kill with it. It goes without saying this is really not competitive and should not be how we let the tier play out. Xurkitree has literally no switchin, i really do not get the arguments about grass types being more popular, it will never matter as long as Xurkitree has free Volt Switches and can easily get the breaker in. I would be fine with banning Mienshao too cause the same arguments applies to it as well. Doesn't die cause Regenerator, its strong af and has coverage for basically everything. The only "reliable" counterplay is getting lucky with Vileplume. There is also some really stupid breakers in here that would deserve being looked at but this is only because those 2 easily enable them. Please lets get rid of both.
 
Hello everyone, i have been playing a lot the tier after the shifts to see how much it will evolve and here is my opinion about xurkitree

For me :xurkitree: is a real problem in the tier right now, and :raikou: too, well almost every electric type right now. With the up of zarude, suicune/reuniclus really gained usages because zarude was their main check. Now an electric type / grass type is almost a must have in any team to check suicune. Due to this xurkitree become really good in the tier. His boots set is really good, gastrodon can't check it due to eball and seismi too. A steel type, like :steelix: or :registeel: but spikes + xurkitree is a real threat, the core :golisopod: + xurkitree is a threat because golisopod puts his spikes and yeah the fun can start. Grass types aren't that popular as well and a fire/ ice like ninetales alola. So for me a xurkitree suspect wouldn't be a surprise.
 
Hello, Reuniclus is broken pls ban.
:ss/Reuniclus:
Reuniclus is quite restricting in the builder with its Calm Mind sets thanks to its limited pool of answer and most if not all of its answers are exploitable in some way. So to list some of Reuniclus's good and or common checks are Swords Dance Incineroar, Mimikyu, Golurk, Durant, Decidueye, Haze Milotic, Doublade, Leech Life Golisopod, Dhelmise and maybe a few more.

Lets look into what handles Reuniclus. Incineroar lacks recovery, takes a lot from Focus Blast, and needs to set up Swords Dance to break Reuniclus, Golurk and Decidueye aren't safe swap ins both being 3HKOd at best, you can also dump Heracross, and Durant in this category, checks but not safe switch ins. Milotic sounds like a perfect counter on paper until you consider LO Thunder Reuniclus which slams Milotic as well as chunking Doublade another supposed counter. People have started trying to use Reuniclus to beat Reuniclus using sets such as speedy LO Shadow Ball just to get the edge in the ditto. For a set up Pokemon to be dangerous it also needs to actually be able to set up. Reuniclus can potentially set up on almost every single one of the tiers defensive Pokemon bar Swords Dance Incineroar, Haze Milotic, and Clear Smog Gastrodon as well some offensive Pokemon like Cobalion and Mienshao.

Acid Armor Reuniclus can easily 6-0 teams that lack a Incineroar, Umbreon or Haze Milotic. Consider that our only great Dark-type Pokemon is Incineroar. Umbreon is more mid, Sharpedo it beats potentially, and it beats Obstagoon, . Haven't seen much of this set and it's very hit or miss but it does exist as an unhealthy matchup fish within the metagame.

Also on as a side note Talonflame Reuniclus good, you get a Durant check.

:ss/Xurkitree:
Xurkitree is quite restricting in terms of what defensive cores you can use on balance teams. Xurkitree threatens all of the tiers Volt Switch immunities so we are stuck using non volt immune Grass-types and Marowak-bad to handle it. Xurkitree is extremely good and consistent at keeping momentum versus so many teams. Now there are a few cores that can thwart Xurkitree, cores with Steelix/Flygon and a Grass-type like Celebi or Roserade AV Reuniclus works to These cores can help in dealing with Xurkitree forcing it to predict however thanks to Heavy-duty boots its not getting punished too hard even if it predicts wrong meaning it could outlast most of its checks and continue keeping momentum

Xurkitree is powerful in the volt turn cores in creates most notable Xurkitree + Mienshao. Mienshao is able to lure in Flying types and walls like Gastrodon which Xurkitree destroys and Xurkitree can volt switch onto Grass-types like Celebi which Mienshao can U-turn on, you could run Crobat and make the volt turn core even harder to deal with by threatening Grass-types with Brave Bird.

:ss/Polteageist:
Polteagiest
This Pokemon I have not seen much of but it sounds super scary on paper being a Ghost-type able to beat Obstagoon with Giga Drain and Snorlax sounds broken. It also has plenty of good points for set up opportunity with its serviceable bulk. however Polteagiest does have a few counters and checks which it struggles a lot to work around mainly Incineroar, Mimikyu, and Umbreon, a bit surprised not seeing more of Polteagiest.

The metagame is in quite the chokehold in terms of teambuilding thanks to the power of mainly Reuniclus and Xurkitree, Reuniclus having very limited answers in general and having ways to adapt around most if not all of its answers, Xurkitree is restricting in that you'll generally need a core of two Pokemon to check it such as Flygon + Celebi and even that merely has the POTENTIAL to fend it off. Of these if we are going to suspect something soon I think we should look at Reuniclus at least vs Xurkitree you can run cores of like Flygon + Celebi and it needs to predict, with Reuniclus there isn't much prediction to get around it.
 
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First post lfg
Just gonna be addressing multiple Pokemon are above and beyond others/bannable/suspectable, some are more blatant than others Xurkitree but yeah


:swsh/xurkitree:
Feel like this is becoming less and less of a controversial opinion, so it'll get focus first. This demon's coverage is emmaculate here, only being resisted by Roserade and Lightning Rod Marowak-A. The aforementioned are good responses until hazards go up, when Roserade takes 38 minimum every Volt Switch, and Marowak slowly kills itself to rocks (boots Marowak :]). There are defensive ground checks to it, Steelix being the best one, but as per usual, Xurk can pressure it with hazards+Energy Ball, and Grass Knot alone can do up to 50% itself, meaning Steelix is no longer an answer after it swaps in once or twice. While this mon is far from bulky, it's good enough to take most neutral hits and can KO the vast majority back. When paired with boots, you can't even wear it down with hazards, and it just never ends up taking much damage. You can predict around this Pokemon pretty well, but with it not taking any hazards on the boots set, it doesn't generally matter. And even with Pokemon that it doesn't directly break, you just volt into ones that do (notably the Mienshao+Xurkitree core)
But alas, if it didn't have flaws it wouldn't still be here. Defensive cores with AV Reuniclus generally check it quite well, if hazards stay off Steelix can swap in many times, Recover Celebi and Synthesis Roserade are reliable checks as well and can even prevent hazards chip by running boots if needed. On the offensive side, Orb Mienshao can easily blow it away with CC, Darmanitan KOs with EQ and Blitz, Heracross KOs with CC, Metagross takes hits and can KO back with EQ, and many other things.
All in all, Xurk is broke, BAN it

:swsh/mienshao:
Utimately I believe this is the most broken pos rn, with Orb being unwallable and unkillable because broken regen, and scarf just constantly U-turning out. The only way to beat it is pray it doesn't edge your flying type into oblivion on the swap, or just run Vileplume. Paired with Xurkitree, you form a voltturn core that's about as good as it comes, with each of them blowing back what the other doesn't.
You don't rlly have many defensive answers, Weezing-G being the only consistent one, with resisting everything barring edge which doesn't do damage, and stops it from regenning if it runs neutralizing gas. Everything else in the tier is just a prediction game that you ultimately lose even if you win bc regen. You have to just pressure this mon out and have in mons that outspeed and KO/take a hit. Seems easy enough until you get in match and Xurkitree just volts into it.
All in all, Mienshao is broke, BAN it

:swsh/reuniclus:
I spam Milo+dark type so I've never lost to this thing so idk enough to talk on it, it is most likely broken, with CM being a wincon is most matchups, and CM Acid Armor a bit more matchup fishy but if you get that matchup then poor opponent. AV is obv fine but it's a v nice SpD pivot.
All in all, idk enough about it to actually warrant giving my opinion

:swsh/polteageist:
This shouldn't beat Obstagoon. And it could beat Zarude when it was here. Please help.
But uh that shouldn't be a thing, the best check to it is Umbreon which is not that good otherwise but does wall it, it sometimes does struggle to get set up, but when it does it's about unbeatable. Idt there's a shot it's as dumb as Mienshao and Xurkitree, so idt it warrants a ban, but it's still unbelievably strong in the tier.
All in all, Polteageist might be broke, SUSPECT it

And yeah, that's all folks :]
 

Expulso

Morse code, if I'm talking I'm clicking
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
:ss/Mienshao:

I believe that Mienshao is the #1 problem in SS RU and we should suspect it immediately.

Mienshao offers a few significant pros over Xurkitree:
- It is much more able to break through its checks. Xurkitree lacks coverage for the grasses that have risen in Zarude's absence, such as Roserade, Celebi, and Dhelmise, forcing it to Volt Switch for ~20% to make progress. When one considers the cost of getting this mon with average bulk and no recovery into battle, that's not particularly advantageous. Additionally, although far less common than the grasses, special sponges like AV Reuniclus, Snorlax, and Dragalge can also hold Celebi off pretty well. On the other hand, Mienshao's coverage of CC / Knock Off / U-turn / Stone Edge misses out on basically no relevant RU Pokemon. The only RU-relevant Pokemon that can hold it off are Weezing-Galar (lacks recovery) and Sylveon (reliant on WishTect); Colbur or Itemless PDef Reuniclus avoids a 2HKO but you cant switch in on a LO U-turn.
- It is faster. 339 Speed is insane; Scarf Mienshao outspeeds every other Scarfer, making it a much greater late-game threat to BO or offense than Xurkitree is due to this added ability to clean. Without Scarf, Mienshao's Speed tier still really helps it; this removes Roserade and Flygon's ability to force out Xurkitree if they come in on anything but Volt/Gleam respectively, making Noivern basically the only relevant faster Pokemon able to force out LO Shao. (Talonflame too, perhaps...?)
- It is significantly harder to chip. Mienshao's Regenerator lets it avoid traditional forms of Fighting-type counterplay, such as how CB Pass in SM RU could be forced onto a timer by Rocky Helmet users + Spikes. Mienshao can also afford a Life Orb very easily due to this, and it just punches holes in your team over and over unless you limit it with a Vileplume Effect Spore or ... Talonflame Flame Body? Neither of those are RU Pokemon, btw

====

I believe Reuniclus is extremely good and could be banworthy as well. However, I think Mienshao holds back a lot of offensive threats and has a huge influence on forcing the metagame to become bulkier or resort to all-out HO. Without Mienshao, I think more teams could fit the offensive presence that's effective in limiting CM Reuniclus' opportunities.
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
Given that several people have suggested different possibilities for suspects and the metagame has settled down considerably, the most effective thing to do would be to hold another playerbase survey, which would be most likely to show what the community as a whole believes is most banworthy, be it Xurkitree, Reuniclus, Mienshao, Polteageist, or nothing.
 

Keem

formerly Nezloe
Hello hello all,i recently started getting into RU just a little bit before the shifts and so far I'm loving the tier but there is one mon I would like to address and that mon IS
:mienshao: :ss/mienshao: :mienshao:
Now before I get into this I would like to say if we ever have a mienshao suspect test I'm all for it and even if we dont I'm ok with that.Now let's talk aboit how mienshao is problematic.
1. It forces mons that play a diffrent role to play a role so that it can't sweep.
What I mean by this is it forces mons like rein (:Reuniclus:) to play a defensive role when rein is supposed to play a specially defensive role and even when you make rein defensive mienshao always finds a way to break through rein and then break throug your team.

2. It's ability,specifically regenarartor.
Its ability only makes it more powerful and in not talking about klutz in talking about regenarartor,you could literally spend half the game trying to get this mon low only for it to u-turn and be at 60-70% HP.

3. Its amazing speed.
Now with a base speed 105 which doesnt sound shocking at first until you realize basically half the tier doesnt even have a base speed of 100,sure therr are mons like crobat,alolan ninetales that are faster and can threaten mienshao but we do have to take into consideration that scarf mienshao is a actual set and one of the more commom ones meaning that this mon could easily switch out with while chipping with u turn.

4. Its partner in crime :Xurkitree:
Now i personally Xurkitree has gotten better ever since zarude has moved to UU,i dont think its broken but paired with mienshao the ultimate core is made,there are so many options with this core,you could go for voltcorr or spdef offensive mianshao or full out offense there are so many options and they both provide decent speed control. Mienshao by itself is scary enough but give it a partner like Xurkitree and my goodness the amount of u-turning and volt switching and stab close combats you'll see will blow your mind.


Anyway I am pretty new to RU so excuse my ignorance but I am still learning and in having tons of fun.
Thanks for reading!:psysly:
 
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Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
As someone who has played like 300 games cycle of LT and everything altho I did not qual, wanted to share some thoughts out

electrics
:Xurkitree:
As someone who has used a lot of HO in my run, I can say that Xurki was really the star of the team most of the time, HDB being able to ignore other HOs webs or hazards while being able to deal a ton of dmg, wouldn't be surprised if this got suspected out, also if this shit got a crit on my xurki w scarf(which it annoyingly did a lot on ladder) it was basically game over

:raikou: :Toxtricity:
being honest, I did not find both Raik and Tox as overwhelming as Xurki, Raikou often lacks something to break off some ground types, while Tox is indeed really strong, but if you click the wrong move you lose momentum out, It's still awesome but I believe xurki is still the biggest electric problem rn

:rotom-mow:
while testing some things out on my HO teams, I faced a few Mowtoms, and this thing actually did a decent job out, it sits one point above Suicune and heracross's speed tier while also being able to pivot around with Scarf(which was the one I faced the most) w/o fearing ground types, this one is kinda similar to xurki but it trades the huge spa that Xurk posseses for some neat immunities and resistances(and is able to check xurki as well!!!) kinda suggest testing it out sometime

Dark weak mons
:celebi: :reuniclus: :cresselia: :polteageist: :starmie: :chandelure: :doublade: (and much more)

Oh boy, if something benefitted out w Zarude's rise, it was these guys
Celebi and Starmie are both great as both utility mons or offensive ones, and I believe both add a lot to teambuilding rn, altho both were decent before the shift, I believe they are even better now

as someone who believe Reun is getting the banhammer sometime, Cresselia will prob be its successor in the Stored power CM unbreakable mon department, both got extremely better w the zarude's rise and wouldn't be surprised if Reun got suspected as well, plus in necrozma's case it is not forced to always run Heat wave in its Meteor beam set anymore, Earth power was a actually helpful tool I used on mine after 100+ battles, since Heat wave only offers a way to hit celebi harder, while Earth power really covers a lot more mons while having a higher base power overall(also u are not forced into akward 50/50s w Incine taking a meteor beam or not)

as for the ghost types, its p much self explanatory, -fast Dark= they get better, principally in the Poltea's case

Other mons I found out interesting

:crobat:
Man, this thing is the definition of HO cuck, this shit is so fast while being able to check a lot or just Uturning out when needed, plus its Defogs are just so valuable holy moly

:umbreon: :incineroar:

Zarude's departure only left us with these guys as defensive dark types, wouldnt be surprised if Scrafty or something rose out as a option, but they are just great itself, Umbreon can fit way more comfortably on Balance teams, along w the fact that its the best stall staple


===
:mienshao:
And as for last note, I do agree that the shao needs to be suspected, this thing was heck strong since I tested it out on Pre-meta(this shit could 2OHKO slowking w CB hello?), Scarf is just extremely effective on a lot types of team, since it can just outspeed busted setup shit like Kings cloyster and such, I can even see someone using some lure like Itemless acro or just adding Blaze kick just just to cuck out the plumer

and ye, I think thats it Quags a great stall staple and Specs nine is great too
 

EviGaro

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
RU Leader
Been playing a bit too so might as well tbh.

I find this meta very odd, in the sense that it almost looks like a tier back in an alpha stage rather than settled after nearly seven months. It's pretty stunning to assume all of that is because only of Zarude, but it kinda feels like it? Anyway, the builds going around are so diverse in threats and potential ways of winning compared to the previous meta it's stunning, and sort of exciting really from a global perspective. I'll start with the things mentioned specifically in the survey and then move on to clusters of stuff I find cool

- I have difficulties, like a few people I imagine, to separate Mienshao and Xurkitree when I try to think about their impact on the tier. That isn't to necessarily say that you absolutely need to build with both of them, but their individual strengths work so well together and on paper present a challenge that next to nothing else can realistically achieve. Xurkitree's pool of checks is very, very limited, and most of the special sponges suffer extremely hard against fighting types, which Mienshao can readily exploit or facilitate a pivoting move. On the other hand, most of Mienshao's said counters hate Xurkitree as well, so it's obvious why on paper that seems absurd because on top of it those mons have several strong qualities for the metagame that make you want to put them on your team anyway. The best thing that can sort of counters both is generally Vileplume, since it doesn't take much from any of Xurkitree's moves and can hax Mienshao and all, but it blocks neither pivoting move, realistically. In a situation where Plume is your counter to both and you face both, it's absurdly easy to play a fairly safe game and never give it a chance to actually sap back, forcing you to make several reads on the Xurkitree especially to get in on a grass move or gleam. Now there's some risks to running both, especially since while they for sure have strong qualities for building they are extremely frail and Mienshao without a scarf can be slower than a ton of threats you might be giving leeway too, but I understand why someone opening the builder finds this pairing absolutely ridiculous to plan against. If I had to choose myself, I might prefer going for Xurkitree first since I think its power is a little above and being unable to counter volt switch very effectively is a pain and a half. Yeah Uturn can't be punished, but generally it's a lot more straightforward to hit that uturn, a Xurkitree saying nah I'm going for coverage has a very real chance of nailing that ko with a bit more ease. But really both are absurd to me so lol

- I think Durant is stupid. It's like, totally expected when you've played RU for multiple generations and you see this happen and it's like oh wow who could have expected this to happen again but here we are and it's still dumb. First Impression is silly too, making most offences struggling with counterplay to hit and forcing some serious compromises. I've seen rain with Indeedee, I myself decided to go rain with a Talonflame, or protect on specific abusers, those kind of things. It's not that they aren't unviable techs, it's just blatantly because of Durant. But if it was only that, then Durant would probably be fine, it's just that it also does everything it used to when it was banned in the previous generations on top of it. It has near perfect coverage for the tier, and has multiple moves to tech the rising Talonflame if it ever becomes something it wants to do. Basically, Durant is very favoured in a ton of matchups, has marginally bad drawbacks (you know what) and forces you to gameplan so awkwardly. Buuut at the same time this tier is so chaotic and that priority in building is really clutch so sometimes I also think that it's good for the tier but then you see it the other way so less sure.

- Reuniclus, like most of the time, I generally am more favourable towards than others. I think it's really, really, really good, especially with people finally dropping that AV set for the CM one. But it's also not without flaws either, and I think in RULT it was one of the main threatening wincons that most people ended up adjusting fine to. There's counterplay without having to compromise that hard, it likes a lot of items and sometimes might find its coverage a bit lacking. Probably a S tier mon, but I would be fine kicking that can forward a bit compared to the three others.

Polteageist is weird, really. It has very specific counters, and not all your typical sponges can beat it very well. Something like Snorlax actually struggles hard vs it, which is a bit silly but here we are. However, there's enough dark types that stonewall it pretty well and have been rising with the Zarude rise. It's still an experimenting phase as to where they fit in the metagame, but overall it's been promising, more on that later. On the other hand, teapot also has difficulties setting up safely, so while it can do this sap nonsense after a shell smash, it's not that comfortable immediately doing it vs large parts of the metagame. Something that might be taking advantage of the very loose state of the meta currently, so have to revisit but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was just a decent pick in a few months.

other stuff I wanted to highlight

- Weather is really good now, honestly. I touched a bit on rain and I think it's interesting how the archetype went from that hard HO at the start of the month to this playstyle that actually can fit a ton of different ideas in and counterplay to what you would expect a rain to look like. It ended up being extremely diverse, and there's enough good breakers that you can't just say well here's my Kingdra or fish counter and that's done, because they might actually lose to Ludicolo + Seismitoad, for example. Your flier also doesn't have to be Tornadus, or your electric Raikou. While yes, being forced to run Politoed is a giant meme in itself and it's by far the most useless of all the main weather setters, it's not terrible enough to discard an archetype that can go so many ways. Hail benefits immensely from Ninetales-Alola bring it some utility, speed, and even offensive prowess it was a bit lacking outside of the Arctos, due to in part how fast it is and what it can thus ko + having a strong boosting move. However, Icy Rock really limits Ninetales, so there's that to consider sadly because other hail setters are just forcing in way too many weaknesses. Sun I have seen less off, although I know GoldCat and ywt have used it in their ladder runs, it seems interesting, although a bit more awkward than the other two? It just seems to offer less synergy between setter + support + breakers than rain does and it doesn't have the stupid absurd power of hail mons. Oh ig sand can work too, not talking about that before I create it again though


- The first thing that happened with Zarude leaving seems to have been wtf are we gonna use as a dark type, and so the search begun. Incineroar was already very good so that makes sense, although the bulky set does seem a little easy to overwhelm and it lacks very key attributes, on top of a ton of competition from fire types in this metagame. Obstagoon was also popular, with a lot of obstruct which seems okay-ish but at the same time it makes you even less able to reliably check the types you want if you do it with the burn so unsure. It also just really needs a bit more power to nab some koes, unfortunately, and the speed is hit or miss on top of being forced to take every hazard in the meta. Umbreon is now a reliable pick on balance, which of course ended up being a very unreliable pick in the metagame in general. It's fine really, but very specific to what you use it for. Pangoro is a funny mon I've seen, it's still dummy strong but also has longevity issues and speed. Expulso talked about Guzzlord and me being a fan of the mon I decided to try it and, well it's not THAT bad really. It's a slow dark type that can with a pray check Togekiss, which honestly is something I'd take to start with but it offers phasing and a strong knock that can get stronger. It's still Guzzlord but like, you know. I haven't seen Spiritomb and I'm sad.

- The other issue with Zarude was the grass type, but that was always I think considered to be less worrying with how many of them already were talked about. Celebi shines in this early stage, I agree with Ampha on that one. Very good speed, reliable setup options, enough diversity in coverage, boots + natural cure + recover offers it a ton of longevity. It's not perfect, but it certainly offers a ton and imo is the clearest winner of the Zarude rise across both types. Roserade was already very good, is so even more now, Dhelmise and Decidueye are more popular picks these days and both seem pretty good. In theory Gourgeist with its speed could offer something similar there but I haven't seen it yet rip. I've tried Tsareena a bit since it has the whip + dark coverage thing going on, and honestly it's not awful It still has too many moves, but those two + triple axel + spin are super annoying, since with some favourable turns you can turn the tables on would be counters like Noivern or Crobat, while also beating a weakened Durant because of the immunity to priority. A fighting move can be missed though, especially since no one laddering scouted it and like oh my god are you kidd-

- Speaking of Celebi, I also agree with Ampha that psychics are big winners now despite the dark types rising in popularity. Necrozma is awesome and regularly claims a couple, with a ton of options to be a pain. Reuniclus is Reuniclus, Starmie is a bit better but Starmie honestly didn't seem to change much. Indeedee to me is a fascinating case, because its ability is honestly so useful in this metagame, and some people who hesitate to pick a dark type for consistency issues end up in a world of troubles vs that mon, and some dark types it just doesn't care too much about on the switch if predicted right, while also just tricking the ones that will always beat it like Incineroar and Umbreon if needed. It's nowhere near what it was before this DLC, but it definitely wins from losing such a centralizing force and like I touched on rain Psychic Surge just adds a ton to this metagame.

- Ghosts also benefitted a lot, I talked about the grass ones but Golurk is still silly, even moreso when now the more reliable darks happen to be slower than it. Marowak is niche af still but honestly it's really rough to counter and deals with key mons pretty decently, especially since Lucario of all things is now a massive threat. Ghosts have always been in mind in RU since Poltergeist was released, and this meta is super kind for them, not surprising to see itemless stuff popping off again even though it's always shaky af consistency wise.

- Yeah Lucario is kinda broke now? Not sure how it happened, but it did, super hard to switch into, stall hates it because it 2hkoes Quagsire, HO hates it because ESpeed is very strong vs those builds (bless Indeedee). It can also varies its sets which might not have been appealing when it was a response to the metagame but if it keeps being such a force it might end up benefitting from its immense movepool to get past would be revenge killers like Cobalion and friends, something to really keep in mind. Also it can run Specs Steel Beam.

- Ban Sharpedo.

Okay I think I am done, if you are here and read this you poor soul. But if you did, notice how I basically talk about only offensive stuff? Sure, there's your Umbreon or Cress that are actually kinda liking this meta, but they are at best response to specific problems. And, well I did say it reminded me of an alpha. There's way, way too many offensive threats for balance to work seriously. I respect the heck out of the players I faced in the rult tour, but facing some players I've seen excel in officials using balance or stall, it was honestly some of the easiest games and it's genuinely no fault of their own, it just doesn't work well at all. Like take Celebi for example. You don't want it for the stall matchup exactly right, you want it cause it's fast and with boots can actually annoy webs builds a ton because 328 speed with boosting power is really annoying. It's also a decent rain check, not a full counter at all, but it will get its koes if you play it well and that's a concern because rain often banks on several mons not being able to do anything to it to facilitate its sweep. You also want it because in theory it beats Reuniclus pretty well, and the bulky waters hate it. However, stall has essentially no matchup for boots + cure + recover with NP, so if you play it somewhat well you win that game almost every time with that mon. And it can't do too much to just fix that matchup because it has to cover so many things at the same time. Before you could at least force recovers with timely toxics and spikes, but now that's essentially gone. Just an example here, and taken from a mon that has such a big upstick recently. That is admittedly, pretty concerning, so I'm really interested to see what happens in the next few months and the speed of what happens there, and that's where the community at large has a big role to play to make their voice heard and I hope to see it clearly stated in this survey and other opportunities to come.
 
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