np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[SlimMan]

NU only existed in Gen 4 [Although one could argue that Gen 3 UU was an NU equivilent, as BL was actually a teir], and Smogon never officially supported NU. It's kind of unfair to compare the playerbase of a Smogon-supported metagame, and one that is not supported by Smogon.

1) NU existed in Gen 3 (it had 55 Pokemon in it) but it literally was never used. No one did NU then.
2)Well, one could argue that Smogon would start supporting NU if it got more players (Ubers is a precedent for this).
3) It's a tier, why do we care about fairness?


About the Lucario thing, I'd say that Luke got worse this Gen. Now there's a whole host of new Pokemon who can tank Extremespeed and KO back. Garchomp, Conkeldurr, Reuniclus (If Luke forgoes Crunch), Lait@s, Venusaur, Toxicroak, etc. etc.
On the other hand, Luke got NP to make it less predictable what to switch into it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Lets put Luke this way. Last gen, it ran mostly physical, some special, a few mixed. This gen, every single Luke I've seen has been special. I'd say it got worse.

(This aside from the fact that each and every single Luke I've faced has failed to get a single kill against any team I've used)

 

[SlimMan]

Lets put Luke this way. Last gen, it ran mostly physical, some special, a few mixed. This gen, every single Luke I've seen has been special. I'd say it got worse.

(This aside from the fact that each and every single Luke I've faced has failed to get a single kill against any team I've used)

Well, NP Luke was better at the very beginning of this GEn because people were still used to countering Luke with Gliscor, Hippowdon, and the like.
But now people actually prepare for NP Luke and it's way, way less threatening.
So I agree, Texas.

Really, the only reason to use NP Luke is because you just don't want it to have a certain set of counters. If you don't care about which particular counters it has, then SD Luke is always better (Extremespeed>Vacuum Wave, Close Combat>Aura Sphere). Not to mention that SD Luke can actually benefit from Dream World, while NP cannot.'

EDIT: Yay usage stats!

 

[Rosey Oak]

I do not agree that weather should be banned because of the decline in usage of specific Pokemon, in the same way that I do not agree that weather should be kept because of it brings variety (which it does not anyway because only a small number of Pokemon would fall back to UU without weather present - Vensaur, Toxicroak, Excadrill.)

I do however; believe that weather should be banned for the following reasons.


It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.



Now in the case of Non-weather versus weather:

In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.

On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.


Back to my point that weather allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.

(Looking at OU)

Yes, stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon. It has become too powerful in the sense that it completely changes the Metagame to favour specific Pokemon and put others at a major disadvantage. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.


The importance of weather has far surpassed what used to be acceptable, and is thus creating an unbalanced game where non-weather things aren't important and get overwhelmed unless they counter specific weather threats.

 

[ginganinja]

In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means

that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.

On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.

I actually disagree with this. Firstly, your point only really allies to chlorophyll and Sand Rush sweepers which is what, Excadrill, Venusaur and Sawsbuk? Skarm pretty much walls 2/3 of those as part of its job while Venusaur has other counters easily available depending on the set. Secondly, I myself have used a non weather team and found it very effective so I don't see how you are exceptionally disadvantaged.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I do not agree that weather should be banned because of the decline in usage of specific Pokemon, in the same way that I do not agree that weather should be kept because of it brings variety (which it does not anyway because only a small number of Pokemon would fall back to UU without weather present - Vensaur, Toxicroak, Excadrill.)
I do however; believe that weather should be banned for the following reasons.
It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.

Should you always have an equal opportunity to win in battles? For nearly every generation, there has been a possibility that your opponent could have the perfect team, then destroy you. Usually, its not a big deal, because such threats either could be dealt with by standard pokemon, or they are too "off the path," to concern yourself with. Now there are in fact plenty of standard pokemon to deal with every weather available, use them. And its perfectly fine to lose to certain weathers, a lot of teams deal with sand or rain fine, but when the sun curveball is thrown, they have some problem, you can't counter everything bro, just get as much as you can.

And your idea that battles are not enjoyable is extremely flawed, because there is an easy straight forward way of dealing with the weathers. And even if they win at the endgame because you lost your weather/weather counter first. You lost the momentum first, which is arguably your fault. I mean if you have a problem with things sweeping in the end game, you might as well ban every offensive pokemon.

Now in the case of Non-weather versus weather:
In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.
On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.

This only pertains to chlorophyll users, and Excadrill, mainly. Both are easily countered with standard OU pokemon, with other uses, and they work well on most teams too. So I don't see what the problem is there. And once again, sometimes you just have to lose battles you are not prepared for.

Back to my point that weather allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.
(Looking at OU)
Yes, stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon. It has become too powerful in the sense that it completely changes the Metagame to favour specific Pokemon and put others at a major disadvantage. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.

Is this a bad thing? I mean last gen, sand was king, passive damage from sand storm most certainly had an effect on the metagame, but no one complained at all, because it wasn't a problem. And sandstorm even existed in gen 3, unchallenged, without a problem! Now of course all the major weathers have a much more offensive force now, but then again you can counter them pretty easily, like any offensive threat. Missed out on one you can't counter? Well you will just have to lose then.

Sorry if my end points are all pretty much the same, but that’s honestly my view on offensive threats.

 

[SlimMan]

I do not agree that weather should be banned because of the decline in usage of specific Pokemon, in the same way that I do not agree that weather should be kept because of it brings variety (which it does not anyway because only a small number of Pokemon would fall back to UU without weather present - Vensaur, Toxicroak, Excadrill.)

I do however; believe that weather should be banned for the following reasons.


It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.

Now, I liked the way this started out, because you got right to the heart of the matter. But in the middle it started to go downhill.
You said that the loss of one or two Pokemon often means you lose the game. It has always been this way. Last Gen, if your opponent had an SD Luke/Scizor, and you lost one or two Pokemon (your counters/checks), then you could very well lose. Or if you're playing full Stall, and you lose a couple 'mons, your team is handicapped and you could very well lose. If the opponent beats a couple of your 'mons and then sweeps you, it means that they out-played you. It has nothing to do with weather. In any battle that you lose, there will always be a "Point Y" that you can look back to and wonder if you could have won. Any battle. My point is that, the death of one or two team members can make you "doomed to lose" against any given sweeper, not just weather threats.

Can people please stop saying that the metagame is just weather wars? Weather wars are a huge part of it, yes, but the new statistics show that it continues to take up less than half of all teams. All of offense in Pokemon is about getting favorable conditions to make a sweep, and weather is just another way of doing that.

Now in the case of Non-weather versus weather:

In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.

Choice Scarf is not the only way to revenge-kill. There are also the kind of check which can take a single hit, then KO back. There are also the kind of check which uses priority to bring down a threat.

Not to mention that in OU, there is 1 Chlorophyll Pokemon (Venusaur) and 1 Sand Rush Pokemon (Excadrill). So it's unreal to imply that most weather sweepers are getting their speed doubled.

On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.

Okay, it's not true that checks to weather threats are "useless majority of the time". Lati@s, Balloon Heatran, Dragonite, they all screw over common Sun sweepers, yet none of them are "useless" against non-Sun teams. Balloon Heatran, Gliscor, Starmie, they all screw over common Sand sweepers, yet none of them are "useless" against a non-Sand team.
Dealing with weather threats can be done without devoting an entire team just to do so.

Back to my point that weather allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.

(Looking at OU)

Yes, stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon. It has become too powerful in the sense that it completely changes the Metagame to favour specific Pokemon and put others at a major disadvantage. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.

You say that Stealth Rock only affects certain Pokemon very much. The same applies to weather. Any Pokemon which is not weak to Fire gets no defensive benefit from Rain. Any Pokemon which doesn't use Fire moves isn't hampered by Rain. I could say that weather only affects certain things to a significant degree, just like Stealth Rock only affects certain things that much.

The importance of weather has far surpassed what used to be acceptable, and is thus creating an unbalanced game where non-weather things aren't important and get overwhelmed unless they counter specific weather threats.

This isn't true. Non-weather teams can be very successful (just ask ginganinja), without using 6 weather-counters.
Our limits of acceptable must grow as time goes on, and this is just one of those times.

 

[Birkal]

And your idea that battles are not enjoyable is extremely flawed, because there is an easy straight forward way of dealing with the weathers. And even if they win at the endgame because you lost your weather/weather counter first. You lost the momentum first, which is arguably your fault. I mean if you have a problem with things sweeping in the end game, you might as well ban every offensive pokemon.

And what is this "easy straight forward way of dealing with weathers"? While I don't agree with everything Rosey Oak said, I feel that there is no easy way to destroy weather. Often the strategy of a weather-based team is to throw in their abuser and switch out upon and scent of danger. Then that individual sits in the wings until your weather abuser is gone or until their weather is guaranteed to stay. I haven't found one "cure all" way to defeat weather. You can change it; even get some priority with Prankster Thundurus! But they'll eventually switch their abuser back in. You can pack a weather abuser, but then you've started a weather war that will absorb both players for the entire match. You can even try Explosion or Final Gambit on the abusers, but they're often EV'd defensively enough to take a hit or too scared to stay in on powerful threats. As far as I am aware, there is no definite way to take out weather. And hence the desire to have it banned.

 

[yee]

And what is this "easy straight forward way of dealing with weathers"? While I don't agree with everything Rosey Oak said, I feel that there is no easy way to destroy weather. Often the strategy of a weather-based team is to throw in their abuser and switch out upon and scent of danger. Then that individual sits in the wings until your weather abuser is gone or until their weather is guaranteed to stay. I haven't found one "cure all" way to defeat weather. You can change it; even get some priority with Prankster Thundurus! But they'll eventually switch their abuser back in. You can pack a weather abuser, but then you've started a weather war that will absorb both players for the entire match. You can even try Explosion or Final Gambit on the abusers, but they're often EV'd defensively enough to take a hit or too scared to stay in on powerful threats. As far as I am aware, there is no definite way to take out weather. And hence the desire to have it banned.

Hmmm. That would mean you need to build a team with good synergy that has a plan to deal with other weather. And you would need to outplay your opponent sometimes ;)

 

[Birkal]

Hmmm. That would mean you need to build a team with good synergy that has a plan to deal with other weather. And you would need to outplay your opponent sometimes ;)

I think you are confusing my intentions. Weather can certainly be beaten by a non-weather team; that much is evident. I'm just skeptic as to whether there is a "hard counter" for any weather enabler. Switching in your enabler, calling them out, and then having your team of five benefiting-Pokemon will hold a definite advantage over another team. So what then? You can change the weather (either making a weather war or validating a temporary fix) or attempt to call a switch into their weather enabler (often difficult to do due to the low probability a smart weather-player would ever switch their gold ticket into an offensive threat). Again, weather is not impossible to beat. I'm just debating that there is no "straight up counter" to weather.

 

[Agent123]

I hear Wobbuffet takes out weather starters REALLY GOOD. It tanks anything they can throw at it and just KO it right back.

 

[Miscellaneous]

I don't like the usage statistics arguments. Those statistics are just facts of the metagame and in any metagame some pokemon will be relatively more, or less, prevalent. It's also silly to suggest that the statistics work on a purely countercyclical or a purely 1v1 basis. The only real deduction you can take from statistics is that they give an insight into what people want to use. Seeing as teambuilding is often a complex and long thought-out, even heterogeneous process, you can't really deduct anything about how something is used homogeneously, whether it be just to do damage, just to counter, just to check, or just to fulfil whatever role.

Because statistics are purely user-based, there is really no tangible reason to for magikarp not becoming #1 in OU with a usage of >50%. There is only an assumption that most users would not pick magikarp because it's considered ineffective in OU. True, how "good" something is affects the decision on whether or not to use it. But there is no true correlation. Usage and effectiveness are completely separate entities.

For that reason, I would not really advise making an argument based statistics. The "over-centralised" adjective applies to something with a ridiculously high usage, but unless the usage is ridiculously high it is hard to really connect usage with imbalance.

Brightpowder was banned because it was luck-based, not because it was broken. It was more an expansion of evasion clause rather than a ban in its own right. I'm surprised anyone is complaining about the item, I don't see how unbanning it helps OU in any way.

I hear Wobbuffet takes out weather starters REALLY GOOD. It tanks anything they can throw at it and just KO it right back.

Wobbuffet does that to most pokemon, and Wobbuffet isn't stopping drizzle or drought or sand stream from setting up the weather.

 

[ginganinja]

I think you are confusing my intentions. Weather can certainly be beaten by a non-weather team; that much is evident. I'm just skeptic as to whether there is a "hard counter" for any weather enabler. Switching in your enabler, calling them out, and then having your team of five benefiting-Pokemon will hold a definite advantage over another team. So what then? You can change the weather (either making a weather war or validating a temporary fix) or attempt to call a switch into their weather enabler (often difficult to do due to the low probability a smart weather-player would ever switch their gold ticket into an offensive threat). Again, weather is not impossible to beat. I'm just debating that there is no "straight up counter" to weather.

There are "hard counters" for weather enablers. Tyranitar, Politoed and Nintales can all be walled depending on the sets they choose to run. However, as to stopping them get there weather up then not really, the moment they switch in weather is up and (bar running weather yourself) there is nothing you can really do about stopping that. Remember that just because something lacks a "hard counter" does not make it broken. As a rather successful non weather user myself I pretty much ignore weather going up and focus on taking down the team members rather than preventing weather.

Also just nitpicking this point

and then having your team of five benefiting-Pokemon will hold a definite advantage over another team

Define "Definite Advantage"

Taking an average team of Heatran/Jellicent/Ferrothorn/Jirachi/Latias/Gliscor vs a simple Sandstorm team Tar/Ferro/Excadrill/Scizor/Gliscor/Latios. Despite me running "No weather" I still doubt that either side has a large advantage. For example Excadrill outspeeds my entire team but will struggle to get past Gliscor, Latios might struggle with Jirachi etc etc. Just cause you don't run weather does not mean that you suffer a disadvantage against weather teams.

 

[SJCrew]

As a rather successful non weather user myself I pretty much ignore weather going up and focus on taking down the team members rather than preventing weather.

This argument means nothing without credibility. Are you a top-ranking player? Can you ladder consistently high with weather-less strategies? I did check your ranking just now and unless you have some really high-ranked alts, you're not convincing myself or anyone else here that this is anything approaching the truth.

Just cause you don't run weather does not mean that you suffer a disadvantage against weather teams.

Saying this ignores the inherent properties of each weather, designed specifically to boost and reduce certain attributes that you have to be 100% prepared for when making a team. Suppose Rain is up and the HP Fire you had for Scizor isn't going to do it. Do you also have a Skarmory to wall that Scizor? Can you also deal with the fact that Skarmory massively reduces your momentum vs. both Rain and Sun teams? Can you readily adapt to each strategy built around a field effect that will work against you every game?

Weather is designed to make Pokemon better than they already are. Most of the top-ranking strategies are weather-based. Weather wins games, as it very well logically should, and factually, has. Are your team strategies really revolutionary enough to fight the fact that you are statistically at a disadvantage? Or are you still stuck in denial like the plethora of other players who are trying their hardest (and failing) to fight against a precedent that has been established since the beginning of the BW metagame?

 

[ginganinja]

This argument means nothing without credibility. Are you a top-ranking player? Can you ladder consistently high with weather-less strategies? I did check your ranking just now and unless you have some really high-ranked alts, you're not convincing myself or anyone else here that this is anything approaching the truth.

Err, you know that I stopped actively laddering a few weeks ago due to uni which probs affected by rating thanks to decay?. That and that fact I ladder under alts anyway
Considering I have actively managed to reach 1400 ish (which at the time I did it ranked me around 23rd) which is o.k I guess with a non weather team I would say i can do pretty well against weather teams. My point was not to actually brag about myself but rather to make the point that non weather does work and can be an even match against weather teams. I am not saying I win 100% when playing weather teams but neither do I get utterly thrashed by them. It usually just comes down to good play.

 

[SJCrew]

So you got to around 1400 that one time a while ago with your non-weather team, and now we're all supposed to believe that non-weather is equally as viable as weather when it's been proven time and time again incorrect as average and above players continue to use weather and win with it?

This isn't even a matter of an ego contest; what we're looking at is results. Non-weather players generally do not win as much as weather players. Even if you found a strategy or two that worked in your favor for a while, I highly doubt it's going to hack it at higher levels of play, especially in a rigorous metagame that only continues to develop while you're out of touch.

(Also, even if you're not what you call 'actively laddering' I'm fairly certain I've played you more than a few times no less than a week ago, so you can hardly use that as an excuse.)

 

[Yoshiken]

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's step back a little here.

when it's been proven time and time again incorrect as average and above players continue to use weather and win with it?

Proven when/where, exactly? I'm yet to see any statistics to show the top-rated teams, and the usage stats don't show weather to be the best of the best (past Tyranitar, which I think applies more to Tyranitar than anything - besides, we could then argue that Sand alone is better, and that you're wrong to think rain/sun are on an equal footing.)

If you can show me somewhere actual proof that weather is that broken, then sure, go ahead. But I'm yet to see any proof that weather is even remotely broken, and the latest figures do nothing but emphasise that, with the top Pokemon being good in and out of their respective weathers. (Well, okay, TTar not so much, but it's the SpD from SS that makes him ridiculous and not just 'good'.)

Edit: Also, it doesn't matter how good the players are with these teams. If an 'average' player can win with it, but a far superior player can't win more with it, then it's not that big a problem unless it's winning consistently - which I don't think weather is!

 

[ginganinja]

I don't know why people don't run non weather and frankly I don't even care. My point was that I managed to do it. All it means is that someone like me with only basic prediction skills and stuff managed to get that high using non weather which does mean that, provided you actually have a decent team, you can win. Its no different to other weather teams. If you build a shit weather team than you will lose to other weather teams and so on. Just like if I build a shit non weather team its likely going to suck.

Non-weather players generally do not win as much as weather players

Nitpicking but id be careful when you throw these generalisations around. Weather vs weather is far more common than Weather vs non weather so im not sure where you are getting the idea weather wins more than non weather?

The point is running non weather does not mean you "auto lose" against weather teams like some were suggesting. Non weather works, it was effective when I tried it, can we just move on?

EDIT: o.k yeah pretty much what Yoshiken said

 

[IcyMan28]

I would actually argue that based on the recent usage statistics, there is quite a large case for Sand and Rain dominating the metagame, which most of us have seen from personal experience.

The top 10 alone (Ill exclude Tar) are basically the cookie-cutter sand team, while several others benefit from other weather conditions as well (Ferrothorn, Scizor, Rotom-W, and Latios in Rain, Heatran and Latios in Sun). Move down the list and we see Skarmory, Jiracho, Starmie, and Thundurus taking advantage of Politoed's number 14 ranking (and let's not pretend Toed is useful for anything else like Tar is), and the former two have always functioned well in Sand. Dragonite is probably where it is of its own merit, but the Rain sweeper set is a pretty big deal given the resists it brings to Rain.

I'm not saying that the statistics alone prove weather to be broken, but there is something to be said when 75% of the top 20 are so readily able to abuse it.

 

[Yoshiken]

Thing is, being able to survive in multiple weathers, in this generation, makes a Pokemon viable. Being able to survive in and out of weathers makes it GOOD.

Besides, we've really gone off on a tangent here, haven't we? How can weather wars be over-centralising when there are three four weathers to take advantage of to begin with? Also, you say the top 10 are a standard Sand team... So, the fact that there are 10 strong Pokemon there that can fit in Sand (and I'm gonna say they're not the only ones, given Hippowdon's relatively low ranking) means there's a lot of variety in Sand alone, not to mention the fact that other teams are viable.

Also, just saying, Latios isn't exactly a Sandstorm staple, and Conkeldurr hates it - just means he dies that bit quicker from residual damage. (Toed, I will grant you that, since it would otherwise be useless. That said, high usage != good.)

 

[Chou Toshio]

Just FYI, I'd never say that Scizor is a "rain" poke. Oh wow, you cut Scizor's Fire weak in half-- too bad Scizor is OHKO'd by almost any STAB Rain-boosted Water-type attack in the OU (and is definitely 2HKO'd by any Rain-boosted Water attack of legitimate force in OU).

 

[IcyMan28]

Thing is, being able to survive in multiple weathers, in this generation, makes a Pokemon viable. Being able to survive in and out of weathers makes it GOOD.

Besides, we've really gone off on a tangent here, haven't we? How can weather wars be over-centralising when there are three four weathers to take advantage of to begin with? Also, you say the top 10 are a standard Sand team... So, the fact that there are 10 strong Pokemon there that can fit in Sand (and I'm gonna say they're not the only ones, given Hippowdon's relatively low ranking) means there's a lot of variety in Sand alone, not to mention the fact that other teams are viable.

Also, just saying, Latios isn't exactly a Sandstorm staple, and Conkeldurr hates it - just means he dies that bit quicker from residual damage. (Toed, I will grant you that, since it would otherwise be useless. That said, high usage != good.)

Actually, I'd say being able to survive in Sand is what matters - Rain and Sun don't have passive damage to add on. Again, I'm not using the statistics to say that weather is overcentralizing. That's a word that doesn't really have relevance to me. Where they do matter is where they highlight the correlation between viability and usage, Politoed being the case in point.

Politoed, a pokemon who has no uses outside of Drizzle, is used more than the likes of Starmie and Gengar from the sheer support it provides alone. This is a big indicator of just how good Drizzle is, especially in comparison to Drought (Ninetales is much farther down the list).

@Chou: Point taken. That said, Scizor is also 2HKOd by water attacks outside of Rain as well since most things that use them will have STAB. The utility in avoiding HP Fire, though, far outweighs that increased vulnerability to attacks it wasn't taking particularly well to begin with.

 

[SJCrew]

Weather vs weather is far more common than Weather vs non weather so im not sure where you are getting the idea weather wins more than non weather?

For one, I am not seeing a lot of it. Two, when I do see it, the battles are usually very memorable ones in which I absolutely destroy my opponent. And as such, I randomly save logs from time to time to illustrate just how hard a non-weather player has to work against such a stark disadvantage, only for them to still ultimately lose.

Hide

Battle between SJCrew and Carcer started!

Tier: BW OU
Variation: +21, -10
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Carcer sent out Raikou!
SJCrew sent out Forretress!
The foe's Raikou is exerting its Pressure!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Raikou used Volt Switch!
Forretress lost 166 HP! (46% of its health)
Carcer called Raikou back!
Carcer sent out Heatran!

The foe's Heatran is floating on a balloon!

Forretress used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around Carcer's team!

Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Heatran used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around SJCrew's team!

Forretress used Rapid Spin!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Heatran lost 1% of its health!
The foe's Heatran's Balloon popped!
Forretress blew away Stealth Rock!

Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 3
SJCrew called Forretress back!
SJCrew sent out Spiritomb!

Spiritomb is exerting its Pressure!
The foe's Heatran used Earth Power!
Spiritomb lost 83 HP! (27% of its health)
Spiritomb's Sp. Def. fell!

Spiritomb restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 4
SJCrew called Spiritomb back!
SJCrew sent out Politoed!

Politoed's Drizzle made it rain!
The foe's Heatran used Fire Blast!
It's not very effective...
Politoed lost 63 HP! (19% of its health)

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 5
Carcer called Heatran back!
Carcer sent out Latios!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Latios!

Politoed used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latios lost 29% of its health!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 6
Politoed used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latios lost 31% of its health!

The foe's Latios used Surf!
It's not very effective...
Politoed lost 105 HP! (32% of its health)
The foe's Latios is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 7
Carcer called Latios back!
Carcer sent out Salamence!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Salamence!

The foe's Salamence intimidates Politoed!
Politoed's Attack fell!
Politoed used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Salamence lost 35% of its health!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 8
SJCrew called Politoed back!
SJCrew sent out Thundurus!

The foe's Salamence used Roost!
The foe's Salamence landed on the ground!
The foe's Salamence regained health!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 9
Carcer called Salamence back!
Carcer sent out Raikou!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Raikou!

The foe's Raikou is exerting its Pressure!
Thundurus used Hidden Power!
The foe's Raikou lost 33% of its health!
Thundurus is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 10
Carcer called Raikou back!
Carcer sent out Scizor!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Scizor!

SJCrew called Thundurus back!
SJCrew sent out Swampert!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 11
Swampert used Waterfall!
The foe's Scizor lost 86% of its health!

The foe's Scizor used U-turn!
Swampert lost 205 HP! (54% of its health)
Carcer called Scizor back!
Carcer sent out Salamence!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Salamence!

The foe's Salamence intimidates Swampert!
Swampert's Attack fell!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 12
SJCrew called Swampert back!
SJCrew sent out Forretress!

The foe's Salamence used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 100 HP! (28% of its health)
The foe's Salamence is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!
Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 13
The foe's Salamence used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 99 HP! (27% of its health)
The foe's Salamence is hurt by its Life Orb!

Forretress used Gyro Ball!
The foe's Salamence lost 29% of its health!

Rain continues to fall!
The foe's Salamence calmed down!
The foe's Salamence became confused!
Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
The foe's Salamence is confused!
The foe's Salamence used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 77 HP! (21% of its health)
Forretress fainted!
The foe's Salamence is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!
SJCrew sent out Politoed!

Start of turn 15
Politoed used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Salamence lost 5% of its health!
The foe's Salamence fainted!

Rain continues to fall!
Carcer sent out Raikou!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Raikou!

The foe's Raikou is exerting its Pressure!

Start of turn 16
Politoed used Surf!
The foe's Raikou lost 41% of its health!
The foe's Raikou fainted!

Rain continues to fall!
Carcer sent out Latios!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Latios!

Start of turn 17
Politoed used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latios lost 4% of its health!
The foe's Latios fainted!

Rain continues to fall!
Carcer sent out Heatran!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Heatran!

Start of turn 18
Politoed used Surf!
It's super effective!
The foe's Heatran lost 85% of its health!
The foe's Heatran fainted!

Rain continues to fall!
Carcer sent out Scizor!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Scizor!
The foe's Scizor fainted!

SJCrew: gg
Carcer sent out Skarmory!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Skarmory!

Start of turn 19
Politoed used Surf!
The foe's Skarmory lost 72% of its health!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Politoed lost 148 HP! (46% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Rain continues to fall!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 20
Politoed used Surf!
The foe's Skarmory lost 6% of its health!
The foe's Skarmory fainted!

SJCrew won the battle!

Hide

Battle between SJ Hero and Kingofkongs started!

Tier: BW OU
Variation: +12, -19
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Kingofkongs sent out Guanowned! (Gliscor)
SJ Hero sent out Ninetales!
Ninetales's Drought intensified the sun's rays!

Start of turn 1
SJ Hero called Ninetales back!
SJ Hero sent out Shiftry!

The foe's Guanowned used Protect!
But it failed!

The sunlight is strong!
The foe's Guanowned's Toxic Orb activated!
The foe's Guanowned was poisoned!

Start of turn 2
Kingofkongs called Guanowned back!
Kingofkongs sent out BulletProof! (Bronzong)

Shiftry used Growth!
Shiftry's Attack sharply rose!
Shiftry's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 3
Shiftry used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
The foe's BulletProof lost 100% of its health!
The foe's BulletProof fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out InTheZone! (Magnezone)

The foe's InTheZone is floating on a balloon!

Start of turn 4
Shiftry used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
The foe's InTheZone lost 100% of its health!
The foe's InTheZone fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out Jaws! (Garchomp)

Start of turn 5
Shiftry used Dark Pulse!
The foe's Jaws lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Jaws fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out FuckYouDoryu! (Azumarill)

Start of turn 6
Shiftry used Dark Pulse!
A critical hit!
The foe's FuckYouDoryu lost 100% of its health!
The foe's FuckYouDoryu fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!

Hide

Battle between SJ Hero and Kingofkongs started!

Tier: BW OU
Variation: +9, -22
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Kingofkongs sent out FuckYouDoryu! (Azumarill)
SJ Hero sent out Ninetales!
Ninetales's Drought intensified the sun's rays!

Start of turn 1
Ninetales used Protect!
Ninetales protected itself!

The foe's FuckYouDoryu used Waterfall!
Ninetales protected itself!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 2
Ninetales used Will-O-Wisp!
The foe's FuckYouDoryu was burned!

The foe's FuckYouDoryu used Waterfall!
It's super effective!
Ninetales lost 168 HP! (48% of its health)

The sunlight is strong!
Ninetales restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's FuckYouDoryu is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 3
SJ Hero called Ninetales back!
SJ Hero sent out Espeon!

Kingofkongs called FuckYouDoryu back!
Kingofkongs sent out Jet! (Latios)

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 4
The foe's Jet used Draco Meteor!
Espeon lost 334 HP! (100% of its health)
The foe's Jet's Sp. Att. sharply fell!
Espeon fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
SJ Hero sent out Heatran!

Start of turn 5
Kingofkongs called Jet back!
Kingofkongs sent out Jaws! (Garchomp)

Heatran used Eruption!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Jaws lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Jaws fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out Jet! (Latios)

Start of turn 6
The foe's Jet used Surf!
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 172 HP! (46% of its health)

Heatran used Eruption!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Jet lost 55% of its health!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 7
SJ Hero called Heatran back!
SJ Hero sent out Shiftry!

The foe's Jet used Surf!
It's not very effective...
Shiftry lost 61 HP! (18% of its health)

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 8
Kingofkongs called Jet back!
Kingofkongs sent out InTheZone! (Magnezone)

The foe's InTheZone is floating on a balloon!
Shiftry used Nasty Plot!
Shiftry's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 9
Shiftry used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
The foe's InTheZone lost 100% of its health!
The foe's InTheZone fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out Guanowned! (Gliscor)

Start of turn 10
Shiftry used Dark Pulse!
The foe's Guanowned lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Guanowned fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out BulletProof! (Bronzong)

Start of turn 11
Kingofkongs called BulletProof back!
Kingofkongs sent out FuckYouDoryu! (Azumarill)

Shiftry used Hidden Power!
It's not very effective...
The foe's FuckYouDoryu lost 43% of its health!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
The foe's FuckYouDoryu is hurt by its burn!

Start of turn 12
The foe's FuckYouDoryu used Aqua Jet!
It's not very effective...
Shiftry lost 24 HP! (7% of its health)

Shiftry used Hidden Power!
It's not very effective...
The foe's FuckYouDoryu lost 32% of its health!
The foe's FuckYouDoryu fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out BulletProof! (Bronzong)

Start of turn 13
Shiftry used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
The foe's BulletProof lost 100% of its health!
The foe's BulletProof fainted!
Shiftry is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Kingofkongs sent out Jet! (Latios)

Kingofkongs: gg

My point was that I managed to do it.

How much hax was involved? How skilled were the other players? What was your team like and what strategies did you use? There are too many unknown factors for me to accept your singular case at face value. Again, you are fighting against a well-established precedent that no amount of words in this thread can defeat, so you have to really bring on the facts and evidence if you really want to get your point across.

EDIT: Actually, here's another one from just now.

Hide

Battle between SJCrew and Groombridge started!

Tier: BW OU
Variation: +9, -22
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Groombridge sent out Salamence!
SJCrew sent out Ninetales!
The foe's Salamence intimidates Ninetales!
Ninetales's Attack fell!
Ninetales's Drought intensified the sun's rays!

Start of turn 1
SJCrew called Ninetales back!
SJCrew sent out Porygon2!

Porygon2 traced the foe's Salamence's Intimidate!
Porygon2 intimidates the foe's Salamence!
The foe's Salamence's Attack fell!
The foe's Salamence used Draco Meteor!
Porygon2 lost 153 HP! (40% of its health)
The foe's Salamence's Sp. Att. sharply fell!
The foe's Salamence is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 2
Groombridge called Salamence back!
Groombridge sent out Chansey!

SJCrew called Porygon2 back!
SJCrew sent out Heatran!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 3
Heatran used Eruption!
The foe's Chansey lost 58% of its health!

The foe's Chansey used Seismic Toss!
Heatran lost 100 HP! (26% of its health)

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 4
Heatran used Eruption!
The foe's Chansey lost 41% of its health!
The foe's Chansey fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
Groombridge sent out Lucario!

Start of turn 5
SJCrew called Heatran back!
SJCrew sent out Salamence!

Salamence intimidates the foe's Lucario!
The foe's Lucario's Attack fell!
The foe's Lucario used Close Combat!
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 103 HP! (31% of its health)
The foe's Lucario's Defense fell!
The foe's Lucario's Sp. Def. fell!
The foe's Lucario is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 6
Groombridge called Lucario back!
Groombridge sent out Salamence!

The foe's Salamence intimidates Salamence!
Salamence's Attack fell!
Salamence used Dragon Dance!
Salamence's Attack rose!
Salamence's Speed rose!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 7
Salamence used Outrage!
It's super effective!
The foe's Salamence lost 90% of its health!
The foe's Salamence fainted!
Salamence is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Groombridge sent out Bronzong!

Start of turn 8
Salamence used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Bronzong lost 33% of its health!
Salamence is hurt by its Life Orb!

The foe's Bronzong used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Salamence lost 162 HP! (48% of its health)
Salamence fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
The foe's Bronzong restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
SJCrew sent out Heatran!

Start of turn 9
Groombridge called Bronzong back!
Groombridge sent out Rotom-W!

Heatran used Eruption!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Rotom-W lost 82% of its health!

The sunlight is strong!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Rotom-W used Hydro Pump!
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Heatran lost 273 HP! (73% of its health)
Heatran fainted!

The sunlight is strong!
SJCrew sent out Tangrowth!

Start of turn 11
Groombridge called Rotom-W back!
Groombridge sent out Bronzong!

Tangrowth used Growth!
Tangrowth's Attack sharply rose!
Tangrowth's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

The sunlight is strong!
The foe's Bronzong restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 12
Tangrowth used Focus Blast!
The foe's Bronzong lost 78% of its health!
Tangrowth is hurt by its Life Orb!

The foe's Bronzong used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Tangrowth lost 164 HP! (48% of its health)

The sunlight is strong!
The foe's Bronzong restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 13
Tangrowth used Giga Drain!
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
The foe's Bronzong lost 6% of its health!
The foe's Bronzong had its energy drained!
The foe's Bronzong fainted!
Tangrowth is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Groombridge sent out Lucario!

Start of turn 14
The foe's Lucario used ExtremeSpeed!
Tangrowth lost 92 HP! (26% of its health)
The foe's Lucario is hurt by its Life Orb!

Tangrowth used Giga Drain!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Lucario lost 80% of its health!
The foe's Lucario had its energy drained!
The foe's Lucario fainted!
Tangrowth is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Groombridge sent out Goruggo! (Golurk)

Start of turn 15
Tangrowth used Giga Drain!
It's super effective!
The foe's Goruggo lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Goruggo had its energy drained!
The foe's Goruggo fainted!
Tangrowth is hurt by its Life Orb!

The sunlight is strong!
Groombridge sent out Rotom-W!

Start of turn 16
Tangrowth used Giga Drain!
It's super effective!
The foe's Rotom-W lost 17% of its health!
The foe's Rotom-W had its energy drained!
The foe's Rotom-W fainted!
Tangrowth is hurt by its Life Orb!

SJCrew won the battle!
SJCrew: You should train some more.
Groombridge: G to the G

 

[capefeather]

How about we not turn this into an e-pen0r waving contest? You claim that this isn't one, but it seems painfully obvious to me that it is becoming one. ginganinja has posted experiences contrary to yours, so you've gone out of your way to question his credibility with no actual reason to do so. I especially love how your first question in your last post is, "How much hax was involved?"

 

[SJCrew]

ginganinja has posted experiences contrary to yours

I'm doing the same thing with better proof clearly demonstrating what weather strategies do to non-weather strategies on a regular basis. If it bothers you that much that my name happens to be in those logs, just ignore it and pretend they're from someone else. Either way, it's the same proof: weather dominates non-weather. Well-built non-weather teams can still win, but they're always at a disadvantage and are forced to work harder for it.

Also, if ginganinja is going to make a controversial statement that goes against what most of us understand as a given, especially with his only form of evidence being his own personal success, then he should expect to have to answer for it when someone calls it into question. It's not for you to play the White Knight and say he doesn't have to back it up because that's not how arguments work; without proof or evidence, it's nothing more than a simple falsehood.

Imagine me saying "CM is Terrakion's best set because I used it to get to top ten on the OU ladder."

It's an almost trollworthy statement not even worth refuting, but someone's going to do it. Anyone with a hint of common sense can make the correlation between how effective that CM Terrakion was and how effective the rest of the team was to understand that it really didn't matter that I got to a high rank with it because it wasn't the driving factor that got me there.

The same is occurring here. There's no way weather and non-weather are in the same league, especially with so many of us fighting to correct the imbalances that Gen 5's weather-based metagame has brought upon us. If weather and non-weather were truly equals, not one of these discussions would be happening with such an obvious split in the middle between people who appreciate the weather meta, and the people who want it gone. There's no way the experience of one man can even stack up against that.

But I digress. This is basically just beating a dead horse atm. Even if I had not entered this discussion, the metagame would progress as it normally does with most people having a weather starter on their team to either take full advantage of it or prevent their team from being run over by other weather playstyles. Try as you might to refute that, there's a rhyme and a reason for the centralization involved in Gen 5 OU, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.