They won't be banned. Movepool complications are too much of an issue.Sand Veil & Snow Cloack, in my opinion, must be considered a suspect only when the DW ability of all the abuser have been released, so now there is no point. Ban the pkmn, make a complex-ban or simply wait for the release and discuss after that.
thisCLEARLY the problem is not Sand Veil or...Snow Cloak, (REALLY?) it's Garchomp you're pissed at.
Don't even begin to tell me that Sand Veil Gliscor (the whole TWO of them on the ladder) and Snow Cloak Froslass are just completely sweeping your teams.
Oh, don't even get me started on this. Pokemon would be fucking unplayable if all moves had a base accuracy of 80% and below. At the very least, if we don't want low accuracy moves to cost us the game, we don't choose them. EX: choosing Flamethrower over Fire Blast when possible.Yet another thing I don't quite follow. You are facing a Garchomp. Under Sandstorm. Shouldn't you expect your moves will have 80% accuracy? I mean... that's the point after all... Specially because you said "and I am not paralyzed". What makes having 75% accuracy something you "can expect", but not Sand Veil activating?
Please don't extrapolate from one to infinity. More luck based =/= unplayable. Though I do agree that higher-accuracy moves are generally better.Oh, don't even get me started on this. Pokemon would be fucking unplayable if all moves had a base accuracy of 80% and below. At the very least, if we don't want low accuracy moves to cost us the game, we don't choose them. EX: choosing Flamethrower over Fire Blast when possible.
Then we get Thunder Wave and Body Slam where 75% accuracy moves are mandatory. You can't turn those off, unlike Sand Veil where you can *try* changing the weather. Paralysis is even worse than Sand Veil. Why have I not seen anyone complain about that, then? (The abusers, not the moves, that is.)Then we get Garchomp where 80% accuracy moves are mandatory. You can't plan for that. Even if you're aware of Sand Veil, you can't 'turn it off' (bearing in mind this is a metagame obsessed with weather control) or pick another ability.
Are you really saying that Gliscor lacks the ability to really hurt anything other than the set of pokemon it counters? Or did you just mean Sandslash and the others like it? Also, speaking as one who's used Chomp a lot and had it used against me a lot, Chomp is sort of like Explosion users from Gen IV, at least in what he does: KO something (hopefully), then go down damaging something else. If you're unlucky, chomp will KO two somethings. However, then 80% works the other way, too: You have rather good odds of only having one thing KOed by Chomp.Missing against Gliscor or Sandslash randomly will not cost you games, but every miss against Garchomp will hurt you, where relatively harmless Pokemon like the aforementioned lack the ability to really hurt anything outside of what they're supposed to counter.
Switch a set-up mon into a wall that does nothing to it. You just got a free turn, and have a chance to damage the opponent's team from there. How is that different?To reiterate: the worst part of Sand Veil is the fact that the biggest threat in OU gets a free turn 20% of the time, which means free kills or setup for more kills. Nothing does that besides Garchomp. The problem? Garchomp. It's time for this guy to go.
You can use Gravity or Defog.Then we get Garchomp where 80% accuracy moves are mandatory. You can't plan for that. Even if you're aware of Sand Veil, you can't 'turn it off' (bearing in mind this is a metagame obsessed with weather control)
Ironically I used that same logic stating why Sand Veil shouldn't be banned.Oh, don't even get me started on this. Pokemon would be fucking unplayable if all moves had a base accuracy of 80% and below. At the very least, if we don't want low accuracy moves to cost us the game, we don't choose them. EX: choosing Flamethrower over Fire Blast when possible.
Mandatory if you allow SS to be activated and don't counter it.Then we get Garchomp where 80% accuracy moves are mandatory.
This is false. If you don't plan for 80% accuracy versus chomp then you're planning wrong. Besides, you can turn it off by running your own weather or rarer anti-weather abilities. Toed and Nintales exist, Cloud Nine exists, so it is then up to the player countering Garchomp to pick another ability if they don't wanna play the 80% accuracy game.You can't plan for that. Even if you're aware of Sand Veil, you can't 'turn it off' (bearing in mind this is a metagame obsessed with weather control) or pick another ability.
True. Garchomp is the strongest poke with Sand Veil and the rest aren't broken and therefore neither is Sand Veil as an ability, for the record.Missing against Gliscor or Sandslash randomly will not cost you games, but every miss against Garchomp will hurt you, where relatively harmless Pokemon like the aforementioned lack the ability to really hurt anything outside of what they're supposed to counter.
I was hoping we'd get around to this argument, thank you. However, Garchomp has to be in sand for this to happen, and Ttar might be the most used weather starter but it's not the only one. Under the 20% logic, free kills and setup only occur 1/5 times one faces Garchomp. Other weathers, from what I recall ironically bout 20% of the meta, counter Sand Veil by nature. If chomp is bugging you that much, use Drizzle or a cloud nine pokemon because if only Sand Veil is breaking Garchomp then there are ways to play around that fairly common in OU.To reiterate: the worst part of Sand Veil is the fact that the biggest threat in OU gets a free turn 20% of the time, which means free kills or setup for more kills. Nothing does that besides Garchomp. The problem? Garchomp. It's time for this guy to go.
Actually, one of my favorite strategies for beating Garchomp a few months ago was Cloud Nine. It worked. Well. Also, Cloud Nine is not useless against everything else. Chlorophyll sweeper? Cloud Nine Scarfed Ice Beam to the rescue! Excadrill? Scarfed Surf to the rescue!About Sand Veil, considering Cloud Nine as something even remotely close to viable is plain ridiculous and really doesn't help you.Seriously, it's as useless as Aura Sphere and No Guard against Garchomp, with the added benefit of also being useless against everything else.
How about designing your team so that Garchomp isn't as much of a threat to it? (Yes, that is easier said than done, but it is also quite doable.)Drizzle and Drought are the only things that could be considered as a workaround, but there's no way anyone can constantly keep Sandstorm off the field, and once Garchomp is in, you can't stop Sandstorm without giving him the free turn he's looking for, your starter, and thus, the game. Unless you can show me a log of a high-ranked SubChomp countered by weather. I've used this set, and trust me, weather just can't go off as long as Garchomp is in.
Scarfed Golduck using Ice Beam works.I wouldn't mind about Sand Veil if there was even only one safe, surefire way to touch him, but it always comes down to pure luck.
Logs from a mid-ranked battle ? All I could see happening against a decent SubChomp is Golduck eating 70%ish damage in order to break Garchomp's sub.Actually, one of my favorite strategies for beating Garchomp a few months ago was Cloud Nine. It worked. Well. [...] Scarfed Golduck using Ice Beam works.
My team is actually well-prepared against Garchomp, but I (like everyone else) still get an unavoidable, game-breaking penalty one time out of five against him. Not because my opponent outplayed me, not because a risk I took kicked in, not because of a flaw in my team's design, but simply because he's Garchomp.How about designing your team so that Garchomp isn't as much of a threat to it? (Yes, that is easier said than done, but it is also quite doable.)
I'm against any sort of Sand Veil ban instead of Garchomp, but... Are you suggesting using Gravity against a 130 base Attack, 102 base Speed Dragon/Ground pokémon...You can use Gravity or Defog.
Sorry, I don't save logs very often, and I don't use Golduck anymore (completely different team, now). General result was: I switch in on the sub, Ice Beam while they Swords Dance, and then they're down next turn.Logs from a mid-ranked battle ? All I could see happening against a decent SubChomp is Golduck eating 70%ish damage in order to break Garchomp's sub.
It is avoidable/isn't game-breaking. Build your team so that it won't be able to get in enough/so that the miss won't matter as much.My team is actually well-prepared against Garchomp, but I (like everyone else) still get an unavoidable, game-breaking penalty one time out of five against him. Not because my opponent outplayed me, not because a risk I took kicked in, not because of a flaw in my team's design, but simply because he's Garchomp.
I, being of the opinion that the metagame is mostly balanced, would disagree, but if I had to pick a way to remove that situation, I would agree with you there.As for how this issue should be dealt with, I believe a Sandstream+Sand Veil ban is by far the best solution, as Garchomp w/o TTar is a perfectly legit pokemon which contributes to the game's diversity, but I guess a straightforward Garchomp ban is still better than nothing.
This tbh. And also, if something must be banned, I really think it should be the Pokemon, not the ability. Sorry, but I don't think Ice Beam having 80% accuracy in a sandstorm makes Sandshrew broken.Sand Veil is not really broken, IMO. Sure, I have about a 20% chance to miss him, but really, it's no bigger deal than missing a Stone Edge.
Also, the most common moves agains Garchomp are at 100% acc. Just pretend that all your moves are at Stone Edge acc. I mean, come on, you guys act like Sand Veil makes you miss like Dynamicpunch or Sheer Cold.
tl;dr 80% acc. isn't a big deal.