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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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I really don't like this metagame. Now before you go and pile up on me and say "NOOB!" I'll tell you I got to 1300 with a non-weather team. While that's not too good, it shows I have a decent, not amazing, but decent knowledge of this metagame. And I can safely say that the centralization of weather is terrible. I've actually gone on a hiatus because literally the only teams I faced were weather teams with little to no diversity.
The rain definitively plays a role in that... And what is your team, exactly?
The would seem to work, but I would assume that no Ecadril/Dory is going to stay in on a quagsire, knowing that any quagsire in OU is going to be unaware...
Until they establish UU or NU, its either Ubers or OU...=/.
I don't think that promotes a healthy enviorment that you must run one of 4 pokes to have a chance. And while Ttar (specifically, that build) is great for switching into stuff like latios d-meteor, the most common weather right now is sand, so I don't see ttar as a weather changer to be that good (hail is so rare, which is why abomasnow works really well).
I would agree with that, resists its best stab and no super effective moves to hit gliscor with. Conkledurr counters him pretty well too, and can threaten with Mach/Drain punch, but gliscor is a safer counter.
Well not saying my team sucks(maybe) but my 1470 rating defensive duo team work well in round 2(1370 peak) and 3(where i get 1470 before reset) but now that tornadus just keep spamming his Gale and when i switched Ttar he just FB or HA.
And 70 % acc gale never miss damn i hate him more than thundrus ever will be
As for quag, after switch in on dory its pretty much free turn. Its fun doing pseudo sub to one of biggest metagame threat
And 70 % acc gale never miss damn i hate him more than thundrus ever will be
As for quag, after switch in on dory its pretty much free turn. Its fun doing pseudo sub to one of biggest metagame threat
Personally, I try to find a Pokemon that can spare a moveslot to slap Hail/Sunny Day on
Have you tried running Scarf Tyranitar? He outspeeds and KOs with Stone Edge. I've used it to amazing success. Crunch/Stone Edge/Ice Punch/Superpower. I used to have Pursuit over Superpower but literally no Latios or Latias or Gengar ever switched so I dropped it.
Personally, if nothing got banned in this metagame, I'd be happy. I don't think that it is too bad, at least there's three weathers to choose from and not just one. I just think that this Gen is designed to be a weather gen
When i tried scarftar over 9000(ok im exagerating only like 10 but thats huge)
threats abuse it and im more fucked up than i ever wanted. Seeing i achieved like 1470 with it i can assume its succesful at the time and move with other team liek what i do now
AND you know its going to be wrong when i get 1470 with double psychic with literally same set of move with 2 move differences and used in same way(not to mention those psychic is considered a sucky mon by majority of the community)
It seems you don't understand the concept of overcentralization. Teambuilding is about adapting to the threats of the metagame to win this much is true. However, when it get's to the point that people have to come up with unorthodox and otherwise unviable strategies to beat the top threats, that is the basis of overcentralization. There are other factors to of course. Such as when a top threat forces the many pokemon out of a tier and the tier itself becomes focused on only a few pokemon. (I.E compare the 4th gen metagame to before and after Latias and Salamence were banned. You'd see that after they were banned the metagame became less centralized and allowed more pokemon into the metagame.) However, if you use this aspect of overcentralization you'd see that people have a reason to act as they do. Using weather teams to counter weather teams is in itself overcentralization and shouldn't be allowed at all.
I tried that before slapping abomasnow on my team, and it isn't as good in theory. First, your opponent has to be reckless with their weather user (which they might be, if your team doesn't have one), but I find that you have to not only switch really well, but they switching into their user after your move puts you down a turn. Your honestly better off running one of the 5.
Besides, can't you see an issue if you have to spare a weather move that is otherwise useless?
Having to run one of 5 pokes, or be at a disadvantage seems horrible. Nonweather teams do see victory, but you can bet they are running really antiweather pokes if they are not (for me, Abomasnow, but like I said, I don't consider my team weather).
And if you really enjoy weather wars that much, good for you.
P.S. Completely agree with Kurashidragon.
Too much centralization around one threat is overcentralization.
Centralization around multiple threats that counter each other, even if there are just two or three of them, is a completely different matter. As long as different teams can use or combat weather in notably different ways, no matter how centralized the metagame is around weather, it's not overcentralization. Even if every team must have a weather move or weather ability in order to be good in the slightest, there is still enough variety afforded by that for the metagame to be diverse.
So one of three weathers or an aggressively anti-weather team being OU and everything else being UU is a desirable metagame?
I understand that non-weather teams will win against weather teams every now and then, but they're not going to be as viable as they should be.
I understand that non-weather teams will win against weather teams every now and then, but they're not going to be as viable as they should be.
well some of people i played are good so i feel quite acomplished being a horrible player myself
And saying other player horrible or even bad is just offensive in my book
I read through that once and thought you were joking. Apparently your not. I don't understand how running one of five (lets be realistic, one of three) or playing anti-meta seems like a good metagame. You must play on the latter, and who knows, maybe you enjoy weather wars. But when the game ends because one poke dies, it seems boring. If I wanted to play a game where I just need one thing to die to pretty much, win, I'd play chess.
Which is why I think UU will be amazing this gen. Gen 5 pokes have a lot of potential, but are being overshadowed by gen 4 ubers.
sorry JSND, I meant to address this before, but that was completely uncalled for. One he has no idea the skill you've played against, and getting to 1470 is quite a feat, and I applaud you.
Except you can't define concretely what is in fact unorthodox or unviable. It's completely arbitrary. In fact, if the strategy wasn't viable within the example, no one would use it.
Your logic doesn't stand.
People need to stop complaining about how and why they don't like the game and just play it.
I think UU would only be able to escape from Rain, since there's a large chance Abomasnow will not be OU, Hippo might fall from OU (not sure if he would be used enough, and even then, there's still Evoilte Hippotatas), and Vulpix still exists. So you'll be starting UU with 3/4 of the weathers most likely.
Just be grateful Gen V didn't give us auto-fog.
Just be grateful Gen V didn't give us auto-fog.
The entire meta revolves around weather. Anyone who disagrees with this is a fool. Even if you don't run weather, your team is built to specifically deal with it.
Opinion
[QUOTE}People need to stop complaining about how and why they don't like the game and just play it.[/QUOTE]
So if anyone has a problem with the metagame, get over it? Yeah, that's great logic there champ.
I don't think Hail is strong enough to stand on its own, so I don't seeing that being too powerful. Hippo will probably be in UU, but the best sand abusers will all be OU, so again, I don't see it being too powerful.
Rain and sun will still be run as the original gen 4 users (which honestly, I am fine with since those will run out, can be taunted, ect).
And if they really use vulpix, well, more power to them but I won't mind if their weather is used in a format where Golduck and Lickylicky will be a bit more viable.
Don't even joke about that =p.
True if the metagame is diverse that's a good thing. But there's a difference between the metagame being diverse and the metagame being silly. (To put it in basic terms.) Say for example evasion clause was never around. There would be more of a reliance on no miss moves like aerial ace would suddenly become more viable. BP teams would be used more. Move's like Stone Edge and Fire Blast would be few and far between yes but not many pokemon would become unviable. In terms like that and yours the metagame wouldn't change all that much but it's become watered down and just not fun.
@Ulevo
No miss moves are uncompetitive because they lack power. Only aura sphere can really be used successfully. Do you really think a Raichu would be viable in this metagame. What is and what isn't viable in a metagame is dependant on what the metagame is. To humor you however, rain is the dominant weather so why not stick a Thunder on one of your pokemon. In this weather dominated metagame it'd certainly help with taking care of rain. Then there are those annoying sun teams. Stick a Cloud Nine Golduck on your team. Both of those examples would be completely uncompetitive otherwise but it doesn't matter because in this metagame you need to use things like this in order to succeed. Or you could just use another weather team to counter them. Not only would that be successful but you can use your own weather team to dominate. So the cycle continues. You can say it's not overcentralization and I might agree in some ways but do you really think that it's still not completely bad for the metagame as a whole?
Congrats. You posted something entirely irrelevant to what you quoted. What's your point? I wasn't disputing any of this.
Don't tell me I'm wrong. Prove me wrong. It wastes less of my time.
Yes, yes it is.
Simply put, bans and clauses are meant as a last resort. They're not there for your leisure so you don't have to deal with things you don't like. If you don't like the game, don't play it; whatever your reasons are.
That is an entirely different discussion to what I was addressing. What I said was pertaining to your comment about how unorthodox and otherwise "unviable" strategies being used to increase winning consistency in a metagame is a sign of overcentralization. The fact is that there will always be threats more dominating than others, regardless of how you want to label them, and there will be unique and new or "otherwise unviable" (completely for a lack of an appropriate term) to counter them. This is not a sign of overcentralization; this is how the metagame works. Some top threats are able to either check or counter other top threats, and some lesser used or lower tier threats have a niche in there ability to become usable according to the conditions.
My whole point is that this is a very poor way of looking at the circumstances.
As for what you just mentioned. No, I don't believe its bad for the metagame. I've seen plenty of non weather teams (by non weather, I mean zero use of any auto weather incucer, or the use of Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Hail, et cetera) either do well or beat me while using a sand team. That's in my own experience. But lets assume for the sake of the argument that non weather teams are not viable, and that I am simply a horrible player and therefor my opinion on the matter in regards to non weather teams success potential is invalid; it still doesn't matter to me. I think the idea of this generations metagame being dominating by a few select weathers is perfectly fine. The weathers themselves don't restrict what you can and cannot use, they simply allow specific Pokemon to excel. Sand dominated Gen IV, regardless of whether or not you ran Tyranitar or Hippowdon, and it was assumed to always be in play. Either of these two can easily be used to counter the more focuses weathers, Drought and Drizzle. Abomasnow with Snow Warning is also an option.
People will complain about this, but this is nothing new. People complain every single generation about something. The difference now is that ever since we banned Garchomp and Salamence in Gen IV, people now have it in their minds that banning things for the sake of making the metagame more enjoyable is acceptable. Regardless on whether or not you believe this view is right or not, suddenly now every person has an individual say. This has implications, and because no one can come to one single agreement as to what the "ideal metagame" should look like, we have these political debates.
That's my long winded rant on the matter, but to answer your question simply; no, I don't think having the metagame centered around a few weather inducers and abusing the strategies of weather is a bad thing. It's different. And people should start dealing with it. People weren't allowed to ban Skarmory and Blissey in GSC, no matter how much they bitched about it. I don't see why we're suddenly allowed to have an exception.
But it does. Weather based meta to the current level is unorthodox. Weather is one issue, but the dominance of the gen 4 ubers does invalidate a lot of otherwise good pokes.
Prove what, exactly? A format should not revolve around an entire strategy that is limited to one of five (three) pokemon?
But that's not what you were saying. Your point stands to stay that regardless of the meta, shut up and play the game. Am I going to quit because I don't like the meta? No. Does that mean I am going to quit griping about the meta? Hell no.
And I would argue that banning is used to create a better metagame for the users. This may mean a last resort, but if people thought something was really repulsive, it would be banned in a heartbeat.
And if something does not change, you can bet your ass I will be in UU once that it's established, and you can watch OU transform into Ubers as far as popularity is concerned.
...what in the world are you talking about?
For one, I was talking in reference to unorthodox strategies, and how they are relevant to overcentralization. This has nothing to do with whether or not the current weather dominance is unorthodox.
I don't know if you're just making stuff up or intentionally trying to straw man me in a very bad fashion.
I'm not arguing your straw mans, sorry. Respond to my comments appropriately or just don't bother.
I don't care if you gripe about the meta. I mean, go ahead. I'd prefer it if you didn't. It'd be nice not to have to listen to it. But I can't control you and what you want to do with your time.
Where this becomes my concern is when you try to shape the metagame to what you feel is ideal, rather than upholding to strict competitive standards, simply because you don't like how things are going.
Banning is supposed to be a last resort, and the only justification for that ban taking place is because the suspect is broken. Not broken as in "oh I hate Latios, I have to carry this and this and this and this or I lose a Pokemon blah blah blah". I mean broken. You play it, or you lose at an unreasonably consistant rate.
If OU is going to be transformed in to Ubers, that is where its destined to go. That's how the game was handed to us, and we shouldn't be trying to change it. If the game is really that bad (be it in your eyes, or in the eyes of everyone else), simply don't play it. Or play a different tier, like you're suggesting.
I understand the metagame quite well and I know that new movesets and things like that are supposed to be a given. However, we cannot agree because we have different views on competitive value. While it is true that this is the way the metagame is supposed to be if the set your using is uncompetitive in every way except for taking on a top threat that is bad for the metagame. Take what you ignored in my post. Golduck can combat sun with it's Cloud Nine and water typing however, what else is it good for besides that in ou. Nothing. There are plenty of other Water Types that can be abused than Golduck yet people still use it for that single aspect. There's something very wrong with that.
On the topic of the weather's dominating the metagame being "perfectly fine" I don't think anyone could agree with you. Another way to overcentralize is to water the metagame down to specific pokemon. As you so clearly stated the weathers do just that. Every other team you see is some kind of weather team and yes it does make it very difficult to non-weather teams to flourish. Also sand never really dominated gen 4. Granted it was a very viable however, it never really took the metagame by storm to the point where you see them every other battle. That's the most major reason people were perfectly fine with them. Now in gen 5 we have 4 weathers completely dominating the metagame. You see some kind of weather every other battle and it just doesn't make things fun at all. It's overcentralizing and it needs to be tested.
I actually do agree with you about peoples views on bans. Not everybody wants something gone. It could be from a lack of experience or a love of the pokemon (I did alot of research on Reuniclus to help find checks and counters.) and so when things get banned someone's gonna get pissed and wonder why. It's a hassle but bans need to be done. Bans happen specifically to make the metagame more accessible and fun. If bans didn't happen we'd still be using inconsistent and drizzle would be even more of a pain. Latias would still be running the metagame of gen 4 and nothing would really be fun anymore which is what the game is supposed to be. Fun, a game, enjoyment. If we just "suck it up" and let these things run the metagame not many would be playing the game or at least not with that insane ban list.
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