np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Limewire]

however, you can't say 'a good team would have twave'd or killed off threats to manaphy before sending it out' because i could paralyze fast pokemon and kill off threatening pokemon and get an easy [pokemon here] sweep. i'd put it more as 'i don't see a lot of non-choice scarf pokemon that are running faster than manaphy currently besides swift swimmers, so while manaphy can be outsped i'm not seeing a lot of pokemon in the meta outspeeding it currently, making it tougher to deal with!' which is how i see it, anyway.

>_< Gah, good point about the Twave thing.

You're right that not too many non-scarf Pokemon can outspeed Manaphy (besides Swift Swim/Sand Paddle/Chlorophyll mons), but those that DO outspeed it, like Birijion, Garchomp and those two djinn things, can completely screw up Manaphy if they aren't dealt with.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

for what it's worth, i simply do not see how you guys can ban manaphy and drizzle at once. if you have strong reason that drizzle is totally broken, then ban only drizzle.

has manaphy been used enough outside of the rain this generation that you guys are confident he is broken without rain? has he been used at all outside of the rain this gen??

for what it's worth, a clever sun team can be successful against rain. two chlorophyll users to resist water, sun abusers like arcanine that can hit hard with priority moves... a bulky ninetails to get it sunny at the right times...

you also have to play the mindgame well. hide ninetails, try to pick off their politoed early in the match, then bring in the sun and sweeeeeep.

1.They have Ice Beam.
2.Arcanine and other strong Fire types....maybe you didn't know,but they're hit SE by Hydro Pump/Surf,which is for some unknown reason,common on Rain teams.
3.If you hide Tales....they will most certainly hide Toed.

 

[Teh_Mysterious_Egg]

How about so we can test it next round in a metagame without Drizzle? Contrary to what most people seem to believe, Manaphy doesn't make Drizzle broken, it's the other way around. Drizzle is broken with or without Manaphy, hell Manaphy isn't even close to being the most dangerous abuser. Drizzle enables teams to utilize an army of powerful swift swimmers to rip through teams that aren't specifically built to counter it, while Manaphy, outside of Drizzle, is very borderline and deserves a separate test.

Well, I for one believe Manaphy is broken with or without Drizzle, and obviously this vote is for Drizzle with Mana, not without. Beta Server banned Mana, but not drizzle, and since they banned the last round's suspects before we decided they were right, and they haven't banned Drizzle yet. Basically, what I mean is that since Smogon agreed with PO for round 1, we should wait and see.

God, this is the most many-faceted suspect round ever. The issue is that this round is dealing with an entire playstyle here. Before, they were just pokemon, but now, we're basically condemning all of rain, and who knows, after this, I bet all of you will call for Dory and Friends' blood.

EDIT: I slightly misspoke; they haven't/didn't decide to ban Deo-N.

 

[shrang]

for what it's worth, i simply do not see how you guys can ban manaphy and drizzle at once. if you have strong reason that drizzle is totally broken, then ban only drizzle.

I can't see why you can't ban both Drizzle and Manaphy at the same time without testing one without the other. Manaphy is an extremely controversial Pokemon when rain is not infinite, while without Manaphy, infinite doesn't seem any less broken (you still have Swift Swimmers, Hydration abusers like Lapras and Whiscash and other stuff). Don't forget that Manaphy was deemed too powerful in 4th gen when infinite rain wasn't available and it's very possible that it still is.

 

[Redjar]

Ludicolo alone breaks Natt/Buru with Energy Ball and Focus Blast.

MH mons will cripple 1 mon before dying since aside from Erufuun,they aren't very bulky.

It's not just putting some though.
I can have can MH mon with Sunny Day and that wont change anything unless Politoed dies,something an MH mon can't do very well.
It doesn't matter if you cripple toed,he just needs to switch in,while you can only shorten his life span as he powers up his whole team.

Mischevious heart prevo stone murkrow is pretty bulky (can it get roost?) and the MH mons are for the sweepers (obviously not the toed which just has to exist)

Get a chansey or blissey, prevo P2, works well as well. Croagunk makes a great poke for and against Rain teams. Use entry hazards etc..... List goes on.

 

[Delta 2777]

I can't see why you can't ban both Drizzle and Manaphy at the same time without testing one without the other. Manaphy is an extremely controversial Pokemon when rain is not infinite, while without Manaphy, infinite doesn't seem any less broken (you still have Swift Swimmers, Hydration abusers like Lapras and Whiscash and other stuff). Don't forget that Manaphy was deemed too powerful in 4th gen when infinite rain wasn't available and it's very possible that it still is.

Well, considering we're supposed to be banning only what is absolutely broken, wouldn't it be better to be certain that Manaphy is broken outside of permarain than to just ban it for the hell of it? Manaphy wasn't banned by a supermajority with permarain being available - I'm sure many people might change their minds without this being available them.

And really, so what if it was Uber in Gen IV? So was Salamence, but I don't see anyone bitching about him.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Mischevious heart prevo stone murkrow is pretty bulky (can it get roost?) and the MH mons are for the sweepers (obviously not the toed which just has to exist)

Get a chansey or blissey, prevo P2, works well as well. Croagunk makes a great poke for and against Rain teams. Use entry hazards etc..... List goes on.

What?
Chansey and Blissey don't stand a chance against Toxicroak or Kabutops.
Pre-Evo Stone Pory2 has to constantly Recover or he dies too. He pretty much can only PP stall them.
Croagunk? I doubt he likes eating a Draco Meteor or an Outrage from Kingdra.
Hazards? FYI,Kabutops learns Rapid Spin or you could just run a Forrettress if you want.
What's this "list" of mons and strategies that can stop a rain sweep or at least make it possible to survive most of it?

 

[capefeather]

Mischevious heart prevo stone murkrow is pretty bulky

+0 LO Kabutops Stone Edge vs max/max Impish ES Murkrow: 94.4% - 111.1%

I mean I guess Murkrow can smartly use FeatherDance/Roost, but if Kabutops has already gotten that SD in then Murkrow's dead (bar missing I guess). I'm not making any sweeping statement here; I was just interested in that one calculation and its implications.

 

[alamaster]

I can't see why you can't ban both Drizzle and Manaphy at the same time without testing one without the other. Manaphy is an extremely controversial Pokemon when rain is not infinite, while without Manaphy, infinite doesn't seem any less broken (you still have Swift Swimmers, Hydration abusers like Lapras and Whiscash and other stuff). Don't forget that Manaphy was deemed too powerful in 4th gen when infinite rain wasn't available and it's very possible that it still is.

You said it yourself, Manaphy is a controversial subject when regarding a ban without Rain. It doesn't matter if in Gen 4 Manaphy was uber, this is a new gen and bans (unless painfully obvious, which Manaphy was not, it was kind of iffy even then) do not carry over. Manaphy deserves a clean slate and I think that we should be focusing on what we can do to have as little bans as possible. Let's test everything thoroughly before deciding what is broken or not.

 

[Teh_Mysterious_Egg]

@Delta
In my opinion, Mence got the short end of the stick this gen. His only real change is Overconfidence, which isn't really at all better than what he already had. Manaphy got much, much better.Tail Glow got another boost, which of course was the main reason it was banned last generation, AND it works fantastically in rain.

EDIT: I also totally agree with Ala, like I said, this testing round is going way too fast. We should be as sure as possible before we ban anything. Even more sure than Shaymin. Besides it's far easier to bring a Pokemon up than down.

 

[Redjar]

What?
Chansey and Blissey don't stand a chance against Toxicroak or Kabutops.
Pre-Evo Stone Pory2 has to constantly Recover or he dies too. He pretty much can only PP stall them.
Croagunk? I doubt he likes eating a Draco Meteor or an Outrage from Kingdra.
Hazards? FYI,Kabutops learns Rapid Spin or you could just run a Forrettress if you want.
What's this "list" of mons and strategies that can stop a rain sweep or at least make it possible to survive most of it?

(croagunk was meant to be toxicroak, my error)
Alright. Fine. You win (or lose if it's a rain team I guess) Nothing I can list can make you win. I don't mind rain teams. I don't run one either, granted this is on PO server and I haven't played OU (DW or wifi) there in 3-4 weeks. But prior to that I had no problem.

But Kaputops doesn't care for mach punch, and midgame hazards are still viable. Run ghosts to stop spinners if you're worried about them. Desukan is bulky (IDK calcs.) Can you name anything bar steel types that like eating outrages and draco meteors?

Buru/Natt are still viable mons. Natt gets countered by ludicolo. So what. He most likely still gets in the way of the other 5. Ludicolo is no reason not to run him. Sashed yanmega can deal w/ Ludi. Kabutops too if you carry giga drain and have either A. gotten enough speed boosts (IDK how many you need for max or min speed or kabu variants) or have your sash still intact. Zapdos does well also and if my croagunk (toxicroak) doesn't like outrages/draco meteors then the opponents won't either and toxicroaks aren't hard to outspeed.

 

[capefeather]

While in principle I'd be inclined to agree, in practice people tend to form a nearly unshakable opinion on this stuff after two weeks, anyway. Not much that can be done...

 

[Gear2]

Little opinion , why the new metagame allows us to preview the opponent's team? It's not surprising like always anymore. It's hard to use some random surprising stuff from UU, NU and this also makes Zoroak kind of useless, too.

I love Smogon but this new feature make me want to go to PO Server because in PO Server they can't see our team before the battle.

And the server keeps crashing :(.

 

[Redjar]

While in principle I'd be inclined to agree, in practice people tend to form a nearly unshakable opinion on this stuff after two weeks, anyway. Not much that can be done...

Agreed :/ I'm fine w/ or w/out drizzleless meta. I just find people should be more creative w/ dealing w/ drizzle than just BAN. I'm not too high on any ladders currently (cept for PO's pitiful excuse for a UU ladder) so I'll stop acting like I know what I'm saying. I just think the meta should settle a bit more to truly see if/how broken rain is.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Agreed :/ I'm fine w/ or w/out drizzleless meta. I just find people should be more creative w/ dealing w/ drizzle than just BAN. I'm not too high on any ladders currently (cept for PO's pitiful excuse for a UU ladder) so I'll stop acting like I know what I'm saying. I just think the meta should settle a bit more to truly see if/how broken rain is.

The things is,we HAVE things that can stop Drizzle teams. The problem is,that they're either:
A) Useless outside of countering Drizzle.
B) It requires a very specific mon with a specific set( Which is like,what? 3 mons?)
Or C) You run your own weather(Which is pretty much 4 mons)

 

[shrang]

You said it yourself, Manaphy is a controversial subject when regarding a ban without Rain. It doesn't matter if in Gen 4 Manaphy was uber, this is a new gen and bans (unless painfully obvious, which Manaphy was not, it was kind of iffy even then) do not carry over. Manaphy deserves a clean slate and I think that we should be focusing on what we can do to have as little bans as possible. Let's test everything thoroughly before deciding what is broken or not.

I'm not saying that we should ban both immediately. Personally, I'd like to Drizzle gone first, then test Manaphy. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be surprising if they do get banned at the same time.

 

[Mr.Senior]

you cant ban swift or in general weather abilities. except maybe sand veil and snow cloak because thats a luck based ability which is frowned upon. but yeah banning the abusers of the weather is impossible because then you cant run a regular swampert/bronzong lead with rain dance. no one would have a problem if that still existed this gen because there was a reason kabutops and ludicolo and such were uu before. if politoed didnt exist i think its a safe bet theyd still be there so regular rain/weather still has to be doable in ou and even uu

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

I've kept quiet for the most part for the testing, but once I saw the votes for drizzle in the last round, I have to say something, even if it falls of deaf ears.

Drizzle is a playstyle which makes it a very unique suspect, which I personally think requires the most amount of testing. I really comes down to the question: Does rain break the pokemon/abilities or does the pokemon/abilities break rain? So what I think we should do is break it down. 1st-Test it in general. 2nd-Test it without manaphy. 3rd-Test it without SWIFT SWIM.

Let's be honest here, the problem is with swift swim. Would rain still be broken if swift swim was banned? I don't think so. It would also keep the playstyle and you won't have to ban a lot of pokemon. I personally see it as a win-win situation. I really don't get why this is not being more discussed.

In my honest opinion, you CAN'T ban rain because it is a playstyle, but since it looks like most of smogon doesn't agree with me, I guess majority rules.

 

[Arc Tech]

I've kept quiet for the most part for the testing, but once I saw the votes for drizzle in the last round, I have to say something, even if it falls of deaf ears.

Drizzle is a playstyle which makes it a very unique suspect, which I personally think requires the most amount of testing. I really comes down to the question: Does rain break the pokemon/abilities or does the pokemon/abilities break rain? So what I think we should do is break it down. 1st-Test it in general. 2nd-Test it without manaphy. 3rd-Test it without SWIFT SWIM.

Let's be honest here, the problem is with swift swim. Would rain still be broken if swift swim was banned? I don't think so. It would also keep the playstyle and you won't have to ban a lot of pokemon. I personally see it as a win-win situation. I really don't get why this is not being more discussed.

In my honest opinion, you CAN'T ban rain because it is a playstyle, but since it looks like most of smogon doesn't agree with me, I guess majority rules.

No it wouldn't keep the playstyle. offensive rain is next to entirely dependent on swift swim. Although it might be able able to adapt, but the only commonly used swift swimmer which is still decent without swift swim is Kingdra. The only other good offensive water type I can think of is starmie, but suicune might be able to do okay. You ban swift swim, you eliminate offensive rain, for the most part, regardless of whether or not drizzle is banned. The playstyle is better preserved by banning drizzle, since then you can still use rain dance + damp rock.

 

[ensoriki]

you cant ban swift or in general weather abilities. except maybe sand veil and snow cloak because thats a luck based ability which is frowned upon. but yeah banning the abusers of the weather is impossible because then you cant run a regular swampert/bronzong lead with rain dance. no one would have a problem if that still existed this gen because there was a reason kabutops and ludicolo and such were uu before. if politoed didnt exist i think its a safe bet theyd still be there so regular rain/weather still has to be doable in ou and even uu

Sure you can ban weather based abilities.
People just don't want to because of the seniority of swift swim, the amount of swift swimmers, and the comfort in the previous existing strategy of RD offense.

Anyways there seems to be a lot of damn mixed messages anyways.
"Manaphy is the only issue" (which is BS).
"Manaphy & Kingdra is the only issue" (Which is BS)
"Derp Drizzle is the problem, not the abilities that abuse it"
With the ever rare occasional "The abusing abilities are the problemz not the weather"

 

[capefeather]

But there are also defensive rain users like Tentacruel, whose great opportunities thanks to their abilities are denied if "Kyogre is technically freed", so to speak. (Yes, I know that Liquid Ooze Tentacruel is still good.) No matter what we do, some innocent soul is going to lose and lose big.

EDIT: I know that I've been posting a lot more than before, but that's because I decided not to check just once or twice a day. That was clearly the right decision. Man, ten pages in less than 36 hours...

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

No it wouldn't keep the playstyle. offensive rain is next to entirely dependent on swift swim. Although it might be able able to adapt, but the only commonly used swift swimmer which is still decent without swift swim is Kingdra. The only other good offensive water type I can think of is starmie, but suicune might be able to do okay. You ban swift swim, you eliminate offensive rain, for the most part, regardless of whether or not drizzle is banned. The playstyle is better preserved by banning drizzle, since then you can still use rain dance + damp rock.

No there will still be offensive rain, it will just play like offensive sand. And you do know rain can do other things like rain stall, don't you? And you know as well as I know that rain dance + damp rock will be awful with perma sand and the occasionally perma sun.

 

[Arc Tech]

But there are also defensive rain users like Tentacruel, whose great opportunities thanks to their abilities are denied if "Kyogre is technically freed", so to speak. (Yes, I know that Liquid Ooze Tentacruel is still good.) No matter what we do, some innocent soul is going to lose and lose big.

EDIT: I know that I've been posting a lot more than before, but that's because I decided not to check just once or twice a day. That was clearly the right decision. Man, ten pages in less than 36 hours...

Defenesive weather is not viable imo, except maybe sand. Politoed (and ninetails) are not great pokemon, and need to provide a lot of support to make up for the teamslot. Weather stallers are not much better than normal stallers.

Also note that if you are up against an opposing weather team, you need to be able to apply pressure, and either force them to sacrifice their pokemon to bring in their weather changer, or allow their weather changer to get worn down and killed. Defensive teams quite simply cannot do that, and rain will go by the wayside as sand takes the lead, with sun in second.

 

[Farukon_o_miru]

But i think that baning Swift Swim/Hydration is more reasonable than baning Drizzle, and the use of weather-moves isn´t very useful, and between baning Sandstorm or Sandthrow What do you will choose?, it is nearly the same thing (and you can say that Sandstorm+Sandthrow isn´t broken, but after the ban of Drizzle and the release of Shadow Tag Shandera, there won´t have many Doryuuzu counters that don´t fear Shandera, then it will be a problem) this metagame isn´t even ended and there are many things that will be released, and baning these weather-abuse abilities (Swift Swim/Hydration, Chlorophyll and Sandthrow) ensures that we will have an early balanced metagame, perhaps just giving a test to a metagame without these abilities can be useful, and rain isn´t just a speed game, there are other abilities that aren´t so broken (Rain Dish, Dry Skin), Thunder, Gale and the 1.5 boost to water attacks (something similar occurs with the other weathers), and Politoed can be too a good offensive pokemon.

 

[ensoriki]

Heres a question.
Why the hell don't we just make a clause that prevents Drizzle and Swift swim from being on the same team, and use it as a Standard for every tier but Ubers?
Would not the MAJORITY be appeased? Would those wanting Rain stall not be appeased?
Where Swift Swim is used with RD + Damp rock, and Drizzle is used with everything else?

If we can have a Soul Dew clause, that's arguably the exact same in concept, why not just limit Drizzle and Swift swim from being used on the same team?

All you would need to do is implement the clause in a suspect test.
Then if anything if you implemented that clause you could definitely see whether or not Drizzle was actually broken.
Swift swimmers would not have permanent rain unless the opposing team brought Drizzle.
If Drizzle was broken without swift swim, excluding Manaphy due to the controversy, then there would unquestionably be reason for a ban.
If the other weathers were later found broken you could put them under the same clause and limit their Speed ability users to setting up as well.
Drizzle without swift swim, and Swift swim without Drizzle? How does that not appease the most people and quite easily solve the issue of rain being broken.

Sue me for compromising when nobody gets banned, but rain offense is reduced to it's Gen 4 power, and the new existing rain strategies can then exist simultaneously.