Um, blaziken, charizard, leafeon, haha, doredia (yes even the flower girl) tangrowth and venusaur all want to have a word with you. All the grass types have a way of making you switch except the bug. All of the above pokemon have double speed in sun except charizard and blaziken. Instead the dragon gets a power boost being able to completely obliterate pokemon that have normal resistances. Meanwhile the chicken is steadly getting faster and killing everything in one hit, yet you say sun teams have no good sweepers? (for the record i use a sun team so i actually have experience using and fighting them)
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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This is what I have to say about everything from testing.
Deoxys-N: This is fine not close to as powerfull as -A and still frail as shit
Deoxys-A: Also fine actually against my teams this guy has done shit all as I'm running priority and in this meta everyone should be.
Deoxys-S: Really not a problem all it can do is be fast and set hazzards with magic coat and all the other shit at the moment I just haven't found it troubling.
Shaymin-S: Broken in my opinion just to powerful to fast and serene grace pushes it over the edge.
Darkrai: 50/50 I think it probably should go, sleep is so powerful with team preview and his speed. His power level is also crazy bit weak and priority smashes him but still very powerful.
Wobbuffet: He can stay having used him a lot in testing for my analysis he is great but not over the top GREAT or anything.
Manaphy: Broken, only rain abuser that is just too good, +6 in two turns with instant status heal and full health is too much.
I haven't had a chance to play innconsistent yet but it sure sounds broke. My soulutions I'm gunna use before ban time are Unaware stuff, Celebi w/ Perish Song, Nidoking w/ Perish Song Pysch Up Sableye and Clear Smog Gengar all useful pokes with a moveslot dedicated to fixing innconsistent except the unaware users. yes I think it sounds broken.
EDIT: Epically forgot Pysch up Blissey which I have used to great succes before. Haven't done damage calcs but mull on the fact it outspeeds Roobushin. also useful against CM Latias lets blissey beat Rankurusu (I would imagine) seems like good general utility.
@Below posts Hitmontop can use fake out first to secure the KO
Deoxys-N: This is fine not close to as powerfull as -A and still frail as shit
Deoxys-A: Also fine actually against my teams this guy has done shit all as I'm running priority and in this meta everyone should be.
Deoxys-S: Really not a problem all it can do is be fast and set hazzards with magic coat and all the other shit at the moment I just haven't found it troubling.
Shaymin-S: Broken in my opinion just to powerful to fast and serene grace pushes it over the edge.
Darkrai: 50/50 I think it probably should go, sleep is so powerful with team preview and his speed. His power level is also crazy bit weak and priority smashes him but still very powerful.
Wobbuffet: He can stay having used him a lot in testing for my analysis he is great but not over the top GREAT or anything.
Manaphy: Broken, only rain abuser that is just too good, +6 in two turns with instant status heal and full health is too much.
I haven't had a chance to play innconsistent yet but it sure sounds broke. My soulutions I'm gunna use before ban time are Unaware stuff, Celebi w/ Perish Song, Nidoking w/ Perish Song Pysch Up Sableye and Clear Smog Gengar all useful pokes with a moveslot dedicated to fixing innconsistent except the unaware users. yes I think it sounds broken.
EDIT: Epically forgot Pysch up Blissey which I have used to great succes before. Haven't done damage calcs but mull on the fact it outspeeds Roobushin. also useful against CM Latias lets blissey beat Rankurusu (I would imagine) seems like good general utility.
@Below posts Hitmontop can use fake out first to secure the KO
A few thoughts...
On the topic of weather:
While the inducers and teams may be annoying they really arent that hard to stop. Either use your own weather or pack a nice resist. Physically bulky 'mons handle sand pretty well and nattorei handles most rain sweepers. When looking to ban something, i think we need to look at what removes competitivity (is that a word?) from the game. While the weather teams may be a bit overpowering, they still, in my opinion, add some diveristy to the metagame.
As for the "ubers" like Skymin, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc...
Manaphy has to go. He is the main reason people are complaining about weather (well, he and doryuzu, but the mole is easily stopped in my experience) and if we remove him the rain haters will probably disappear.
Skymin i believe has to go as well. Very haxy, and with a semi-trollish speed. You can bring in all the counters you want but if you cant attack... good luck.
I really am not sure what to do with Deoxys and Darkrai. Both seem overpowered but can be handled simply be outspeeding them/having a sleep absorber.
My real issues (like seemingly everyone else) are with Inconstistent. When you talk about removing the competitive aspect, this one takes the cake. These essentially free stat boosts really just pull the skill out of attempting to sweep. Just protect,sub and watch your opponent try to touch you. Even if there was no evasion boosts, i think inconsistent would still be an issue (albeit a smaller issue) as getting boosts to your defenses and offenses for free is still huge.
My only concern with getting rid of Inconsistent is that we may be trying to get rid of it too quickly. Who's to say some kind of counter or way to stop it won't be found? As much as I hate the ability and wish it gone, it may be too quick of a jump to ban it. My conclusions: i still would like to see it go, but im not sure i like the idea of just banning every new concept we dont like.
Hope my thoughts werent too boring...
On the topic of weather:
While the inducers and teams may be annoying they really arent that hard to stop. Either use your own weather or pack a nice resist. Physically bulky 'mons handle sand pretty well and nattorei handles most rain sweepers. When looking to ban something, i think we need to look at what removes competitivity (is that a word?) from the game. While the weather teams may be a bit overpowering, they still, in my opinion, add some diveristy to the metagame.
As for the "ubers" like Skymin, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc...
Manaphy has to go. He is the main reason people are complaining about weather (well, he and doryuzu, but the mole is easily stopped in my experience) and if we remove him the rain haters will probably disappear.
Skymin i believe has to go as well. Very haxy, and with a semi-trollish speed. You can bring in all the counters you want but if you cant attack... good luck.
I really am not sure what to do with Deoxys and Darkrai. Both seem overpowered but can be handled simply be outspeeding them/having a sleep absorber.
My real issues (like seemingly everyone else) are with Inconstistent. When you talk about removing the competitive aspect, this one takes the cake. These essentially free stat boosts really just pull the skill out of attempting to sweep. Just protect,sub and watch your opponent try to touch you. Even if there was no evasion boosts, i think inconsistent would still be an issue (albeit a smaller issue) as getting boosts to your defenses and offenses for free is still huge.
My only concern with getting rid of Inconsistent is that we may be trying to get rid of it too quickly. Who's to say some kind of counter or way to stop it won't be found? As much as I hate the ability and wish it gone, it may be too quick of a jump to ban it. My conclusions: i still would like to see it go, but im not sure i like the idea of just banning every new concept we dont like.
Hope my thoughts werent too boring...
BTW, these are all neutral hits. No resists, no super effectives.
Some calcs:
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+4 Adamant LO Doryuuzu using Brick Break vs.
Max/Max Impish Skarmory: 61.1% - 72.2%
Max/Max Impish Bronzong: 61.9%- 81.4%
Max/Max Impish Hippowdon: 55.2%- 65.0%
Max/Max Impish Forretress: 57.6%- 67.8%
+4 Adamant LO Doryuuzu using Rock Slide vs.
Max/Max Impish Gliscor: 62.1%- 73.4%
Max/Max Impish Skarmoy: 61.1%- 71.9%
Max/Max Impish Forretress: 57.6% -68.1%
+2 Adamant LO Doryuuzu using Earthquake vs.
Max/Max Impish Hippowdon: 72.9%- 86%
Max/Max Impish Forretress: 76.6%- 90.4%
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I'm not suggesting anything with these calcs.
I just thought that people arguing about Doryuuzu might want some calcs.
Some calcs:
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+4 Adamant LO Doryuuzu using Brick Break vs.
Max/Max Impish Skarmory: 61.1% - 72.2%
Max/Max Impish Bronzong: 61.9%- 81.4%
Max/Max Impish Hippowdon: 55.2%- 65.0%
Max/Max Impish Forretress: 57.6%- 67.8%
+4 Adamant LO Doryuuzu using Rock Slide vs.
Max/Max Impish Gliscor: 62.1%- 73.4%
Max/Max Impish Skarmoy: 61.1%- 71.9%
Max/Max Impish Forretress: 57.6% -68.1%
+2 Adamant LO Doryuuzu using Earthquake vs.
Max/Max Impish Hippowdon: 72.9%- 86%
Max/Max Impish Forretress: 76.6%- 90.4%
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I'm not suggesting anything with these calcs.
I just thought that people arguing about Doryuuzu might want some calcs.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Politoed needs to stop being talked about. He's simply not broken. He's a great bulky weather inducer with a lot of support capability for a VERY specialized group of Pokemon. If you're not carrying Swift Swim or Hydration, then Politoed isn't going to help you sweep, ever.
Just as a general rule I don't see weather sweepers or inducers as broken, unless there's only one viable weather. But since there's more than one, each can render the other useless, leaving games as a war of who can keep their inducer alive the longest. Sporadic success is definitely not a characteristic of broken.
Just as a general rule I don't see weather sweepers or inducers as broken, unless there's only one viable weather. But since there's more than one, each can render the other useless, leaving games as a war of who can keep their inducer alive the longest. Sporadic success is definitely not a characteristic of broken.
The only thing that I will complain about is maybe Deoxys-A, it's strong on both sides, has base 150 Speed and a pretty diverse movepool, offensively. Deo-S is fine because it only has high speed and only decent attack stats so walls can easily tank hits from it unlike Deo-A where I have to sacrifice a good wall just to take it down.
Darkrai is not much of a problem for me because of Techniloom and Ropushin can easily take a hit not to mention rest talkers are a great way to get rid of Darkrai.
Darkrai is not much of a problem for me because of Techniloom and Ropushin can easily take a hit not to mention rest talkers are a great way to get rid of Darkrai.
Techniloom hasnt been released in the games yet so therefore is not in Standard OU.
I'm no good with Damage calcs, so can someone do these for me?
252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape's Mach Punch against a 0/4/0 Darkrai
64 atk Regular Infernape's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
252 atk Lucario's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
252 Hitmontop's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape's Mach Punch against a 0/4/0 Darkrai
53.19%-62.41% No Life Orb With Orb:68.09-80.85%
64 atk Regular Infernape's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
58.16-68.79
252 atk Lucario's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
You mean Vacuum Wave, Lucario doesn't get Mach Punch
361 and Life Orb: 66.67-79.43%
252 Hitmontop's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
Technician Orb Punch: 87.23-102.84% (20.51% OHko)
Interestingly, it takes a really strong Mach Punch with Technician to OHko without a Swords Dance Boost. Otherwise Darkrai could potentially revenge some of those (not Hitmontop). Like Infernape will fall to +2 Life Orb Dark Pulse with Naieve Nature after it's Life Orb recoil, despite resists and Lucario won't like being hit by Focus Blast (although that is a gamble).
53.19%-62.41% No Life Orb With Orb:68.09-80.85%
64 atk Regular Infernape's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
58.16-68.79
252 atk Lucario's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
You mean Vacuum Wave, Lucario doesn't get Mach Punch
361 and Life Orb: 66.67-79.43%
252 Hitmontop's Mach Punch against the same Darkrai
Technician Orb Punch: 87.23-102.84% (20.51% OHko)
Interestingly, it takes a really strong Mach Punch with Technician to OHko without a Swords Dance Boost. Otherwise Darkrai could potentially revenge some of those (not Hitmontop). Like Infernape will fall to +2 Life Orb Dark Pulse with Naieve Nature after it's Life Orb recoil, despite resists and Lucario won't like being hit by Focus Blast (although that is a gamble).
Thanks for the calcs, much appreciated. Lucario can possibly get in a Nasty Plot and OHKO with Vacuum Wave. And yeah, the Mach Punch on Luc was a total flub >.> If Darkrai stays OU, Hitmontop seems like a viable check, Darkrai will definitely be KO'd assuming rocks are on the field.
Deo-A is strong in both side.
Yeah for something who cant OHKO Blissey with superpower hes definitely strong. Also scarf have a word with you. But saying deo-A is broken is.. well i cant argue a lot. Its one of the best pokemon in OU even when in ubers tier we know its somewhat underwhelming when competing in a tier where monster like groudon exist
I dont know bout toed but for me its mana that is broken not toed. Kingdra in rain while insane has good checks name natts. But remember..... its WATER type after all and we know that water type in gen 4 (1 gen before) dominate the OU and UU tier with their Competition of brokeness seeing UU water is UU due to existance of more broken OU.
Sun DO not have good sweeper in straight but they DO have good sweeper in anotherway. Sun have many disrupting tools that make them so crazy. Things like Jumpluff support and disrupting tools and Venusaur which is very great in the sun due to combination of power, bulk and disrupting tools and having Pseudo Kyogre in form of Hihidaruma. If were using sun these things must be put in consideration otherwise its just another pseudo weather.
Also :
Manaphy : hah !!! the tail glow set right ? its so pathetic. (try CM Bulky Set) OMG broken
Exactly what happen to me when using manaphy. Seriously TG set can be stopped
by few hard hits but THIS set ? Im going to be dead afetr some so easy set up.
Heck mew with same bulk and same investment can take STAB CB crunch already.
Cept its Zapdos(which using SpA and can be nulified by a few cm)
i dont know how to stop this Bulky CM set !!!
Politoed : dont agree for being broken tbh. Its that CM mana thats broken not him for me
but having to rely on reliable moves unlike ninetales(lol miss o miss and hypnomiss)
make him stand out better.
Garchomp : very arguable. Well yache chomp isnt too crazy. Bulky (insert item name) chomp
is very crazy. The risk you got for missing goes up and he have bulk to take insane
number of hits and SD up. Getting + 6 is so easy with this thing
Conclusion : Bulky set up sweeper is so much freakin awesome
Yeah for something who cant OHKO Blissey with superpower hes definitely strong. Also scarf have a word with you. But saying deo-A is broken is.. well i cant argue a lot. Its one of the best pokemon in OU even when in ubers tier we know its somewhat underwhelming when competing in a tier where monster like groudon exist
I dont know bout toed but for me its mana that is broken not toed. Kingdra in rain while insane has good checks name natts. But remember..... its WATER type after all and we know that water type in gen 4 (1 gen before) dominate the OU and UU tier with their Competition of brokeness seeing UU water is UU due to existance of more broken OU.
Sun DO not have good sweeper in straight but they DO have good sweeper in anotherway. Sun have many disrupting tools that make them so crazy. Things like Jumpluff support and disrupting tools and Venusaur which is very great in the sun due to combination of power, bulk and disrupting tools and having Pseudo Kyogre in form of Hihidaruma. If were using sun these things must be put in consideration otherwise its just another pseudo weather.
Also :
Manaphy : hah !!! the tail glow set right ? its so pathetic. (try CM Bulky Set) OMG broken
Exactly what happen to me when using manaphy. Seriously TG set can be stopped
by few hard hits but THIS set ? Im going to be dead afetr some so easy set up.
Heck mew with same bulk and same investment can take STAB CB crunch already.
Cept its Zapdos(which using SpA and can be nulified by a few cm)
i dont know how to stop this Bulky CM set !!!
Politoed : dont agree for being broken tbh. Its that CM mana thats broken not him for me
but having to rely on reliable moves unlike ninetales(lol miss o miss and hypnomiss)
make him stand out better.
Garchomp : very arguable. Well yache chomp isnt too crazy. Bulky (insert item name) chomp
is very crazy. The risk you got for missing goes up and he have bulk to take insane
number of hits and SD up. Getting + 6 is so easy with this thing
Conclusion : Bulky set up sweeper is so much freakin awesome
I'm just going to point out how flawed the bolded statement is. Of course if you don't carry anything that abuses rain, Politoed would be useless. For the Pokemon that can abuse it, they are about twice as good as they would be without it. That is like saying Deoxys-A is not broken because you tried using a stall set and it works horribly.
Strange, I haven't seen anyone else use CM Manaphy apart from myself, and I haven't really owned anyone with it just yet (although I would agree that it is an absolute pest). Shaymin-S still OHKOs at +1 with Seed Flare, I believe (or very close to OHKO, guaranteed with LO). Stuff like Raikou and Zapdos can hit it very hard with Thunder, at least to the point where Manaphy cannot set up. Birijion can SD up and kill it Leaf Blade while +1 Ice Beam isn't going to be close enough to OHKOing. Kingdra generally does well against bulky Manaphy since +1 or +2 Ice Beam isn't doing all that much due to lack of SpA investment, while Kingdra can DD up to +1 or +2 and take it out with Outrage. EDIT: Oh, and Latias is possibly the best Manaphy counter ever, just saying.
unless you can switch BACK in while it's raining at some point.
Croak is a great Mana check for the most part.Well imo CM Manaphy is much superior then Tail glow because of its surprise value combined with the ability to beat most of its general checks if you can hit +2 or so.Its much more versetile and also easier to set up imo.
And Yah Tyranitar is a real pain for Manaphy as if it can come in on the rest your pretty much screwed and its not that hard to predict when you are gona rest...Like what else would you do when your at 30% health and theres something like a Natty infront of you?
And Yah Tyranitar is a real pain for Manaphy as if it can come in on the rest your pretty much screwed and its not that hard to predict when you are gona rest...Like what else would you do when your at 30% health and theres something like a Natty infront of you?
I wouldn't say CM is superior to Tail Glow, though. +3 SpA is still +3 SpA, and the power output is just huge. If we were playing 4th gen Ubers, I would definitely say that CM > TG, but now that Tail Glow got the buff, it really is a force to be reckoned with. It depends on what kind of team you have though. If you have stuff like Toxic Spikes support and the like, CM Manaphy rapes face. If you're just using a plain team, Tail Glow would normally be better in most situations.
Anyway, I'm not going to stop harping on about Specs Kingdra until people start abusing it. 475 SpA with 538 Speed, STAB Dragon double-STAB Water attacks is just crazy. Even Nattorei is taking 35.80% - 42.05% from Specs Hydro Pump in the rain, so it is a one-time check at best (Power Whip doesn't OHKO, IIRC, so if you're lucky enough to hit three times in a row with Hydro Pump, Nattorei is losing). I have had so many matches where I've just spammed Surf and stacked 2-3 kills with Kingdra. In the rain, it can check a whole lot of Pokemon too, like DD Mence, Garchomp and all that stuff. It can even 2HKO standard Tail Glow Manaphy with Dragon Pulse while non-LO +3 Ice Beam fails to OHKO (hehe).
Anyway, I'm not going to stop harping on about Specs Kingdra until people start abusing it. 475 SpA with 538 Speed, STAB Dragon double-STAB Water attacks is just crazy. Even Nattorei is taking 35.80% - 42.05% from Specs Hydro Pump in the rain, so it is a one-time check at best (Power Whip doesn't OHKO, IIRC, so if you're lucky enough to hit three times in a row with Hydro Pump, Nattorei is losing). I have had so many matches where I've just spammed Surf and stacked 2-3 kills with Kingdra. In the rain, it can check a whole lot of Pokemon too, like DD Mence, Garchomp and all that stuff. It can even 2HKO standard Tail Glow Manaphy with Dragon Pulse while non-LO +3 Ice Beam fails to OHKO (hehe).
Tail glow> CM. He has enough bulk to take a hit from a counter and hit back. I have my manaphy carry wacan berry so no pokemon randomly holding thunder/bolt can't OHKO him and he can OHKO back with +3surf/ice beam.
Tyranitar switching in is very dangerous. Natty isn't that huge of a threat to tail glow. after 2 boost surf can do 80-100% depending oh specs if SR and spikes down its pretty much a OHKO. Getting 2 isn't hard 1 on the switch 1 for taking a hit and rest until he misses and hit back with surf done. If you have the 2 glows then just start throwing surf since with team previewer you will know if there is one so you can just hit it when it tries to get in.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
yeah i really think that Special Kingdra is a much bigger threat compared to the classical DD version simply because Nattorei is so common and stops its DD set cold while even he takes a huge chunk from Specs/LO Hydro Pump in the Rain.
Another not so common, but extremly powerful threat is Specs Politoed i used a 252 HP/252 SpA Modest one and it raped through Teams. Specs Stab Rain boosted Hydro Pumps coming from an okay 90 Base SpA OHKOs a lot of things even less bulky resists like Starmie take a huge chunk (4/0 takes 82,1-96% a fair chance to OHKO with SR) he even got Focus Blast wich punishes Nattorei for an easy 2HKO even if he got 252 HP/252 SDef and got a small chance to OHKO 252 Hp/4 SDef version with SR.
I really think that Specs Politoed is the best start for an offensive Rain Team especially against other offensive Teams since otherwise he is often a sitting duck and his best chance to actually achive something is sleep via Hypnosis and maybe burn something with Boiling Water wich is a waste of his great offensive potential.
The only weather sweeper that even deserves testing is Tail Glow Manaphy. And I'm not even sure that it's broken.
Doryuuzu and Kabutops can't take a hit while Kingdra is lacks is unable to boost itself more than +1 at a time and is easily walled by Empoleon/Nattorei.
Garchomp lacks the speed necessary to sweep without a Choice Scarf, but then he is unable to boost. Landlos is too slow to sweep without Rock Polish, but then he can't utilize Swords Dance.
All of the main weather sweepers have weaknesses which most good teams should be able to exploit anyway. I question Manaphy because it has the slowness issue of Landlos and Garchomp, but is able to insta-heal itself. Regardless, I disagree with all the "weather is broken" posts.
Doryuuzu and Kabutops can't take a hit while Kingdra is lacks is unable to boost itself more than +1 at a time and is easily walled by Empoleon/Nattorei.
Garchomp lacks the speed necessary to sweep without a Choice Scarf, but then he is unable to boost. Landlos is too slow to sweep without Rock Polish, but then he can't utilize Swords Dance.
All of the main weather sweepers have weaknesses which most good teams should be able to exploit anyway. I question Manaphy because it has the slowness issue of Landlos and Garchomp, but is able to insta-heal itself. Regardless, I disagree with all the "weather is broken" posts.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Well, when you're trying to argue that something is broken for making other Pokemon supremely better, it should make many things that much better. All Politoed does is make a very specialized group better that are literally designed to be superior when teamed with him. How is that broken? If there's a problem at all, it's with the weather sweepers, not the inducer.
And even then, if you induce your own weather, those sweepers also become useless. So again, I say that weather is flat unreliable in this metagame where 3 very viable weathers exist, and they can all screw each other over with a simple switch. Unreliability isn't broken.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
The question, really, is this. Is a particular rain sweeper broken, while others aren't? Or does Politoed's support make several pokemon too much for the metagame? The thing about Rain being arguably broken in UU in Gen IV was that the likes of Ludicolo, Kabutops and Gorebyss were ALL so powerful under Rain and banning one of them would not have made a serious impact.
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