I always find this thing annoying to face, as I never learned what it does exactly and never have anything for it.. in no way should it be banned, but for the sole reason of it being annoying I honestly wouldn't care if it was banned..
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
- Start date
- Status
Hoopa Unbound is without a doubt a top threat in the OU meta, and one of few good answers against stall, however it's far from overpowered for OU, let's remember previoud bans like mega kanghashkan, how powerful they were because of multiple aspects that forced the metagame to bend around them, completely consuming it due their powerful prescence.
Hoopa-U isn't the case, if we think about the "face" of the meta, Keldao, Landorus-T or even Mega-Sableye will come to mind before Hoopa-U, the reaosn for this is that because of it's average speed and bad defences, Hoopa stands no chance against several OU pokemon, It's true that his offensive capabilities leave him virtually no counter, but that's just on paper, let's remember Hydreigon is basically the same in that matter, and he was never Uber material anyway.
HOOPA UNBOUND IS EASILY CHECKED AND REVENGE KILLED BY A HUGE NUMBER OF VIABLE POKEMON IN OU I'm getting tired of seeing Stall users whining about what's supposed to be a weakness in stall, WALLBREAKING, and sorry but everything has a weakness.
M-Sableye wasn't banned despise centralizing the metagame, I don't see why Hoopa should if it isn't.
To make a point only few are talking about right now, I wanna say that Hoopa's true strengh lies in mental games, similar to Bisharp, Hoopa can't destroy proper switch ins when rightfully predicted so please stop talking like a (usually choice locked) pokemon will always use the right moves on the right pokemon.
With that said.
I'll vote to NOT ban Hoopa Unbound.
Let's stop being so biased in favor of stall for 1 generation at least.
Hoopa-U isn't the case, if we think about the "face" of the meta, Keldao, Landorus-T or even Mega-Sableye will come to mind before Hoopa-U, the reaosn for this is that because of it's average speed and bad defences, Hoopa stands no chance against several OU pokemon, It's true that his offensive capabilities leave him virtually no counter, but that's just on paper, let's remember Hydreigon is basically the same in that matter, and he was never Uber material anyway.
HOOPA UNBOUND IS EASILY CHECKED AND REVENGE KILLED BY A HUGE NUMBER OF VIABLE POKEMON IN OU I'm getting tired of seeing Stall users whining about what's supposed to be a weakness in stall, WALLBREAKING, and sorry but everything has a weakness.
M-Sableye wasn't banned despise centralizing the metagame, I don't see why Hoopa should if it isn't.
To make a point only few are talking about right now, I wanna say that Hoopa's true strengh lies in mental games, similar to Bisharp, Hoopa can't destroy proper switch ins when rightfully predicted so please stop talking like a (usually choice locked) pokemon will always use the right moves on the right pokemon.
With that said.
I'll vote to NOT ban Hoopa Unbound.
Let's stop being so biased in favor of stall for 1 generation at least.
A Bold Announcement That Is Actually Important and Not Just Me Bolding To Look Like My Opinion Is More Valid:
I'm closing /locking both this thread Monday April 11th at 8 pm est (around 1 hour and 40 minutes from this post on Monday) and the Voter Identification thread as well at the same time. That is the heads up for everyone who plans on getting reqs or is making posts here. If you don't make reqs by then or if you're in the middle of a debate tough luck. Thanks.
I'm closing /locking both this thread Monday April 11th at 8 pm est (around 1 hour and 40 minutes from this post on Monday) and the Voter Identification thread as well at the same time. That is the heads up for everyone who plans on getting reqs or is making posts here. If you don't make reqs by then or if you're in the middle of a debate tough luck. Thanks.
Stall still won't be amazing with hoopa-u removed, you know. As for the rest of your post, comparing hydregion to hoopa-u is completely unfair; even in his prime he always had to deal with Draco meteor drops and 4mss.
M-sableye was annoying, but he wasn't banned because he wasn't the problem.
Checked and revenge killed are two completely different things, as all these pages have discovered. Pursuit can't even trap it.
As for prediction, it's main STAB can maim most switch ins, and you don't know what set it's running until it does major damage.
Edit: sorry AM
Literally everything you said could be applied to mons like kyurem white and reshiram.
This isn't about stall, it's about hoopa being unhealthy for the meta and forcing it into an unfavourable position.
The point in the tier policy framework about team-archetypes is surely referencing very general styles though, rather than specific strategies like sand or trick room etc.
If "team-archetype" has the latter meaning, I don't believe that point in the framework would actually be realistic, because certain strategies simply won't be useable at certain times in a particular tier, and there can't be a suspect every time that occurs.
I actually can't find the specific definition of that term in the framework, so it's possible I'm wrong about this. If someone could clarify what exactly constitutes a "team-archetype" that would be appreciated.
As regards the conspiracy theories about Smogon wanting to promote one kind of team over another, lol.
Ok so this is probably going to be one of my last posts in the suspect thread, but I'd just like people to bear in mind that Hoopa-U can easily be revenge killed. Due to it so easy to do so, and grab momentum off of it with u turn, it has what I would call a "maintenance cost". By this I mean that every time it grabs a kill, you give back a huge amount of momentum to your opponent. It also can't beat a huge number of threats 1v1. For these two reasons, players often decide to sack Hoopa-U rather than switch it out and try to preserve it, because it doesn't beat enough threats on the opposing team 1v1 for it to worth keeping.
Just looking at the stats, and the stat total, Hoopa-U will look more broken than it actually is. We've already looked at some Hoopa-U replays, but what I've gone and done is lump loads of spl replays together. I'm not going to do any in depth analysis, this is mostly just numerical. If you look at how Hoopa-U actually works in a battle scenario, it doesn't appear to be terrible broken. If anybody wants to correct me on where a specific replay belongs, please do.
Replays where Hoopa-U has an average, or below average effect on a battle
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-146242
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138668
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138708
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137044
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137088
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135526
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135204
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-134021
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-133308
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-134011
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132391
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132321
Above replay revolves extremely heavily around Torn-T.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132299
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-116332
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-116794
Above replay is particularly noteworthy because both sides bring Hoopa. One Hoopa-U forces a sack, then finishes off a heavily weakened Lando T, the other is used as fodder.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114886
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114978
Above shows an example of a defensive team facing a hoopa and coming out on top
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112830
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112389
Borderline:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135594
Hoopa-U puts in a bit of work this match, forcing some sacks. It doesn't really turn the tide of a game, and Jam did lose his best way of revenging it and applying pressure to PDC to a freeze, so I can't tell.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-116806
Hoopa-U kills Char X, heavily weakens Lando. I don't know what conclusions people would draw from this, because it certainly puts in work, although to an unhealthy extent I'm not sure.
Replays where Hoopa-U puts in a significant amount of work in a battle:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138861
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138877
Scarf Hoopa cleans up. This isn't necessarily indicative of Hoopa-U being broken, but it does win the game, so I've put it in here.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
For what it is worth, the game is still decided by a clef cm war.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519
There are two Hoopas here. One is used as sack fodder, the other ends up being scarf and cleaning up the game.
Brief Analysis
Hoopa-U appears to be able to grab a kill in most matches it is used. However, you could say the same about a lot of breakers. It might be worth setting up a control, where Hoopa-U is compared to another S rank pokemon, and how many games they have a significant impact on. Of the replays where Hoopa-U really stands out, two of them show Hoopa-U being used as a scarfer to clean up, which isn't a trait necessarily unique to Hoopa-U, although in both cases the scarf Hoopa user was in a better situation using Scarf Hoopa than they would have been if it had been a Lando or a Keldeo, or another pokemon that likes to run scarf. Even if you do count one of the borderline replays as Hoopa-U standing out, then the replays where it is just another mon on a team far outnumber the replays where it was a key member.
Conclusion
Hoopa-U picks up one kill when it is correctly used, and can do this pretty consistently, although this probably doesn't make it stand out from other breakers. Just looking through all of these replays, this really doesn't appear to be a pokemon that should leave the tier. I'm not going to deny that it is powerful, and a lot of the time, clicking its stab will be pretty safe. From the numbers alone, Hoopa-U seems to be perfectly fine in the tier the vast majority of the time. From looking at actual battle scenarios, I strongly believe that Hoopa-U is a manageable pokemon.
Just looking at the stats, and the stat total, Hoopa-U will look more broken than it actually is. We've already looked at some Hoopa-U replays, but what I've gone and done is lump loads of spl replays together. I'm not going to do any in depth analysis, this is mostly just numerical. If you look at how Hoopa-U actually works in a battle scenario, it doesn't appear to be terrible broken. If anybody wants to correct me on where a specific replay belongs, please do.
Replays where Hoopa-U has an average, or below average effect on a battle
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-146242
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138668
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138708
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137044
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137088
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135526
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135204
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-134021
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-133308
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-134011
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132391
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132321
Above replay revolves extremely heavily around Torn-T.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-132299
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-116332
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-116794
Above replay is particularly noteworthy because both sides bring Hoopa. One Hoopa-U forces a sack, then finishes off a heavily weakened Lando T, the other is used as fodder.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114886
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114978
Above shows an example of a defensive team facing a hoopa and coming out on top
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112830
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112389
Borderline:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135594
Hoopa-U puts in a bit of work this match, forcing some sacks. It doesn't really turn the tide of a game, and Jam did lose his best way of revenging it and applying pressure to PDC to a freeze, so I can't tell.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-116806
Hoopa-U kills Char X, heavily weakens Lando. I don't know what conclusions people would draw from this, because it certainly puts in work, although to an unhealthy extent I'm not sure.
Replays where Hoopa-U puts in a significant amount of work in a battle:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138861
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138877
Scarf Hoopa cleans up. This isn't necessarily indicative of Hoopa-U being broken, but it does win the game, so I've put it in here.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
For what it is worth, the game is still decided by a clef cm war.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519
There are two Hoopas here. One is used as sack fodder, the other ends up being scarf and cleaning up the game.
Brief Analysis
Hoopa-U appears to be able to grab a kill in most matches it is used. However, you could say the same about a lot of breakers. It might be worth setting up a control, where Hoopa-U is compared to another S rank pokemon, and how many games they have a significant impact on. Of the replays where Hoopa-U really stands out, two of them show Hoopa-U being used as a scarfer to clean up, which isn't a trait necessarily unique to Hoopa-U, although in both cases the scarf Hoopa user was in a better situation using Scarf Hoopa than they would have been if it had been a Lando or a Keldeo, or another pokemon that likes to run scarf. Even if you do count one of the borderline replays as Hoopa-U standing out, then the replays where it is just another mon on a team far outnumber the replays where it was a key member.
Conclusion
Hoopa-U picks up one kill when it is correctly used, and can do this pretty consistently, although this probably doesn't make it stand out from other breakers. Just looking through all of these replays, this really doesn't appear to be a pokemon that should leave the tier. I'm not going to deny that it is powerful, and a lot of the time, clicking its stab will be pretty safe. From the numbers alone, Hoopa-U seems to be perfectly fine in the tier the vast majority of the time. From looking at actual battle scenarios, I strongly believe that Hoopa-U is a manageable pokemon.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Do you have means to support that this is an unbiased sample of replays? If i wanted to i could pick and choose any number of replays of hoopa doing very well in a certain battle and show significantly more of those, giving off the opposite impression.
Having gotten Reqs a couple of days ago, I've waited to post my thoughts on Hoopa-U's position in the OU meta. Something I never got access to see was the Specs set everyone seems to talk about, as I wasn't laddering on Showdown when it apparantly became very popular. Before the advent of that particular set, I never had an issue with Hoopa as I almost always was able to revenge kill it with Pursuit on Weavile or Scarf Keldeo after SR switch-ins. I wouldn't mind having Hoopa around mainly because of this reason (how frail it is basically). At the same time, before Hoopa was introduced in the middle of ORAS lifetime, I didn't feel like I needed yet another wallbreaker or another powerfull Pokemon to beat slow/bulky offense or stall as there are many other Pokemons that can do what Hoopa does, but with a different set-ups. So, I wouldn't mind seeing it go either.
ATM, I'm leaning more towards having Hoopa stay in OU. It's a very powerful mon? Yes. Is it devastating until you properly figure out its set, as it can proceed to utterly shatter your dreams for a W? Yes, but it can depend on your team and how you handle your switch-ins. Is it broken? To be honest, I don't know but I think not (like I said, I never got to see the Specs set in action). I've read most of the arguments for having Hoopa get banned, but nothing seems too convincing to get it banned. I'll keep reading any future posts, so I might change my opinion if I see a more solid argument. But, being entitled to my opinion, ATM I'd vote no ban.
ATM, I'm leaning more towards having Hoopa stay in OU. It's a very powerful mon? Yes. Is it devastating until you properly figure out its set, as it can proceed to utterly shatter your dreams for a W? Yes, but it can depend on your team and how you handle your switch-ins. Is it broken? To be honest, I don't know but I think not (like I said, I never got to see the Specs set in action). I've read most of the arguments for having Hoopa get banned, but nothing seems too convincing to get it banned. I'll keep reading any future posts, so I might change my opinion if I see a more solid argument. But, being entitled to my opinion, ATM I'd vote no ban.
Out of all of those replays I only see one featuring a team that could arguably be considered even semi-stall. The issue isn't about the number of games that it impacts, the issue is that it leads to a metagame with less diversity then there would be with it gone. Listing replays like that doesn't address that issue at all, it's just a distraction.
Does anyone disagree that a metagame with hoopa-u in it removes variety? All I know is that with it gone people are running stall teams that don't require a scarfed tyranitar or a banded weavile, and that's a rare sight in the hoopa-u meta.
Does anyone disagree that a metagame with hoopa-u in it removes variety? All I know is that with it gone people are running stall teams that don't require a scarfed tyranitar or a banded weavile, and that's a rare sight in the hoopa-u meta.
Reading some of these posts, it seems a lot of people are missing the real harm that Hoopa causes, even if it doesn't do super well every game. In those replays that I'm Rick Astley linked, the teams that do well vs Hoopa are either offensive teams or they have Pursuit. The only reason Hoopa isn't utterly destroying all these non-offense teams is because they're all forced to run Pursuit. Seriously, just check any of these replays and you'll see the scary amount of Pursuit people have to run. You can call this metagame adapting, but that's a weak attempt at covering up Hoopa's restrictive effect on teambuilding. We should all be supporting a metagame of diversity and creativity, not one where every team is forced to run certain pokemon/moves just to handle one threat. Keeping Hoopa in the tier only perpetuates the "matchup" issue, because it's a threat that severely hinders the opposing team's ability to prepare for other pokemon. Additionally, it just makes the tier more monotonous and less fun, while severely hindering development. Not to sound too anecdotal, but I ran Pursuit on 9 out of 11 SPL games this season, and my teams that lakced pursuit were the more offensive ones (I must have done something right to go 10-1). I can also tell you that many other people have the mentality of "use offense or pursuit otherwise Hoopa wins" when building in tournaments.
I really urge you all to ignore many of the logical fallacies of the anti-ban side. Banning Hoopa does not make stall unbeatable. Pursuit being a forced move on every non-offensive team is not healthy. If you care at all about the health, fun, creativity, and development of the metagame, vote ban.
I really urge you all to ignore many of the logical fallacies of the anti-ban side. Banning Hoopa does not make stall unbeatable. Pursuit being a forced move on every non-offensive team is not healthy. If you care at all about the health, fun, creativity, and development of the metagame, vote ban.
After watching those replays i somewhat understand why most tour players find Hoopa ban worthy and where the current hype around it is coming from in general. If those games are somewhat representative of the current meta game in the tour scene then its honestly no suprise that hoopa is out of bounds. I think there was at least one rotom-w in every single one of those games, the number of heatrans, amoons, (defensive) starmies and mega latias was also tremendous, especially on the defensive teams. On the other hand, there weren't many torns, hippos, klefkis und clefables around to keep it in check. Not that these mons could switch into Hoopa all that well but at least hoopa wouldn't get as many free entries that way. I mean a Rotom-w, Heatran, Amoonguss core is certainly appealing but its also complete Hoopa bait. After seeing that i think all the more that this suspect test is, at the very least, far to early. If you had given the meta a little time to adapt to Hoopas presence (i.e not stacking Hoopa bait like there is no tomorrow) then the problem would most likely solve itself.
don't even start comparing things that you willingly choose to run (defog/spin to support your charizard) to stuff thats being forced upon you (pursuit as a side effect of being unable to deal with hoopa otherwise) by your opponent lol are you fucking serious this thread has gone fucking mad
and no, unless you do run those pokemon, defog/spin is not something you are forced to use.
and no, unless you do run those pokemon, defog/spin is not something you are forced to use.
The Talon / Volc / Zard players imposed this restraint on themselves by choosing these mons, which is different from having to run Pursuit because the other player uses Hoopa-U.
I haven't read everything, but I just wanted to post my thoughts on the Hoopa-metagame after getting reqs, even if everything's been said already.
I have to admit, that I didn't see a big difference while laddering. For me Hoopa is just like another wallbreaker similar to crawdaunt. It's obviously more common and easier to put on any team, but what it does is ripping holes into the opposing team. But: It's especially hard to deal with when using stall or balance without Tyrantar/Pursuit. And even with Tyranitar/Pursuit you're not guaranteed to get rid of Hoopa, since you pretty much have to guess if you can click pursuit. You'll also have to get Tyranitar in, which is also not an easy task and you'll probably have to sacrifice a pokemon first. It reminds me of Greninja the most with it's destructive power and gigantic moveset, whose only counters which come to my mind (besides Chansey?) were Alamomola and maybe Umbreon, which were barely usable for anything else, at least in OU. Hoopa does even have less counters. The only difference is that Hoopa is slow in comparison and while that makes it a far less of a threat, especially against offensive teams, I don't think there should be a stallbreaking, easy to use, easy to fit on teams, pokemon in the OU metagame with no switch-ins at all. Of course Hoopa has its flaws, but so does Ho-Oh, so does Kyurem-W or Giratina, but there are capabilities of those, which simply outweigh their flaws and that is the case with Hoopa's offensive/stallbreaking capabilities.
I think stall is a valid and good playstyle even though I barely play it. Just a reminder, voting "not ban" because you think stall is annoying is not a good reason. There were ways to deal with it before Hoopa existed and there are still ways to do that now, even if Hoopa is gone. Hoopa is rather unhealthy for not only stall but even a slightly balanced playstyle. And limiting various playstyles is definitely not a way to contribute to a healthy metagame.
I have to admit, that I didn't see a big difference while laddering. For me Hoopa is just like another wallbreaker similar to crawdaunt. It's obviously more common and easier to put on any team, but what it does is ripping holes into the opposing team. But: It's especially hard to deal with when using stall or balance without Tyrantar/Pursuit. And even with Tyranitar/Pursuit you're not guaranteed to get rid of Hoopa, since you pretty much have to guess if you can click pursuit. You'll also have to get Tyranitar in, which is also not an easy task and you'll probably have to sacrifice a pokemon first. It reminds me of Greninja the most with it's destructive power and gigantic moveset, whose only counters which come to my mind (besides Chansey?) were Alamomola and maybe Umbreon, which were barely usable for anything else, at least in OU. Hoopa does even have less counters. The only difference is that Hoopa is slow in comparison and while that makes it a far less of a threat, especially against offensive teams, I don't think there should be a stallbreaking, easy to use, easy to fit on teams, pokemon in the OU metagame with no switch-ins at all. Of course Hoopa has its flaws, but so does Ho-Oh, so does Kyurem-W or Giratina, but there are capabilities of those, which simply outweigh their flaws and that is the case with Hoopa's offensive/stallbreaking capabilities.
I think stall is a valid and good playstyle even though I barely play it. Just a reminder, voting "not ban" because you think stall is annoying is not a good reason. There were ways to deal with it before Hoopa existed and there are still ways to do that now, even if Hoopa is gone. Hoopa is rather unhealthy for not only stall but even a slightly balanced playstyle. And limiting various playstyles is definitely not a way to contribute to a healthy metagame.
Or a simple solution: Just don't reply to the trolls at all, and focus on Hoopa like you just said. They can bring it up whatever they please, due to the fact that most people on the ladder have a hard time trying to even break manaphy and other mons. What if the thing they said about manaphy and chansey was an example of them being hard to handle than Hoopa-U, and not a way of you feeling like you're getting trolled? How do you even know if they're trolls or not? Besides, Chansey can't even die to the Specs set of Hoopa anyway, let alone it being 3HKOed by Drain Punch from the Scarf Set, due to the fact on how fat it really is, that limits teambuilding, and the player's time as a whole. They're just trolls, and you're not even taking the "bait", it's just you being frustrated over small things.
Having just achieved reqs, I think it might be an appropriate time to share my thoughts with the community. Although since many well-thought and thorough posts have been written, I don't think I can add much too the discussion.
First of all, I think few people will deny that Hoopa-U is a force to be reckoned with in OU : not only does it boasts impressive offensive stats but it also has a movepool wide enough to put it to use. Sure, as many posters have already pointed out, it has some crippling weaknesses (slow, frail...).
In my opinion it all comes down to finding whether Hoopa-U's presence is detrimental to the OU metagame or not. Of course, this question seems deceptively simple as the very task of defining what is a desirable, healthy -whatever you call it- has proven to be a bone of contention. For example, some will regard Hoopa's presence as undesirable since he makes stall virtually uncompetitive, whereas others will object that a desirable metagame doesn't necessarily require every playstyle to be viable.
I won't focus on the aforementioned issue : I do think that stall should be competitive in a healthy metagame however to me this is a somewhat subjective statement. My main problem with Hoopa-U is the fact that it offers an incredible risk/reward trade-off : he almost always takes out a pokemon before going down. The amount of pressure Hoopa puts against slower/bulky teams is such that it can destroy those teams with little to no prediction. I won't deny the fact that using Hoopa obviously requires some skills. If it wasn't the case we wouldn't bother suspecting it. Yet ,personnally, I just no longer want to be trapped in whether-to-pursuit or not, U-turns games.
As a consequence, I'm in favor of banning Hoopa-U. I apologize in advance since my post seems a bit messy/confused.
First of all, I think few people will deny that Hoopa-U is a force to be reckoned with in OU : not only does it boasts impressive offensive stats but it also has a movepool wide enough to put it to use. Sure, as many posters have already pointed out, it has some crippling weaknesses (slow, frail...).
In my opinion it all comes down to finding whether Hoopa-U's presence is detrimental to the OU metagame or not. Of course, this question seems deceptively simple as the very task of defining what is a desirable, healthy -whatever you call it- has proven to be a bone of contention. For example, some will regard Hoopa's presence as undesirable since he makes stall virtually uncompetitive, whereas others will object that a desirable metagame doesn't necessarily require every playstyle to be viable.
I won't focus on the aforementioned issue : I do think that stall should be competitive in a healthy metagame however to me this is a somewhat subjective statement. My main problem with Hoopa-U is the fact that it offers an incredible risk/reward trade-off : he almost always takes out a pokemon before going down. The amount of pressure Hoopa puts against slower/bulky teams is such that it can destroy those teams with little to no prediction. I won't deny the fact that using Hoopa obviously requires some skills. If it wasn't the case we wouldn't bother suspecting it. Yet ,personnally, I just no longer want to be trapped in whether-to-pursuit or not, U-turns games.
As a consequence, I'm in favor of banning Hoopa-U. I apologize in advance since my post seems a bit messy/confused.
the ladder is so goddamn garbage, the worst of all time i have laddered so far. dont fucking ban hoopa
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HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
people have said this before but the suspect ladder means very little. people will spam stall because a stallbreaker is being tested; thats how it is. Especially now, the last day for getting reqs, most of the players who can get reqs already have so they arent playing it.
I won't ladder for reqs, my opinion after 30 battles on the ladder is, that Hoopa-U must stay in OU.
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the ladder has never really been a good representation of what the metagame looks like other than... what it looks like on ladder rofl. there's always idiots spamming stall on ladder even when it's awful because there are a lot of bad players on ladder who don't know how to beat stall for the life of them, and there are a lot of impatient players on ladder who don't care enough to beat stall. given this is a suspect test, i'm sure the amount of players falling into the latter category is lowered, but like HailFall said, people are gonna spam stall because a stallbreaker is being tested. if you have an opinion more detailed than two 1-liners, it'd be cool to hear o:. i don't mean that in a condescending way... it just seems that most anti-ban opinions are posts that come down to "stall is annoying" (other than I'm Rick Astley).
like a lot of people have said, with this suspect you have to decide what you think is a healthy meta: a more offensively inclined meta with essentially no stall or a meta that's still a bit more offensively inclined, but more welcoming to bulkier playstyles. personally, i think that a healthy meta should see a balance between more offensively inclined playstyles and more defensively inclined playstyles rather than one that's almost totally in one direction (like what we currently have .-.). will removing hoopa make bulkier builds better? yes because you won't be forced to run pursuit (which barely works to counter hoopa) on every other somewhat fat build. as a lot of people have said, hoopa has essentially zero counters; the only thing you can really do to handle it is out-offense it or use pursuit (the only solution for fatter builds, essentially). i don't think being forced to run a pursuit user on fatter builds makes for a very healthy meta, but again, that brings up the argument of whether a healthy meta should have an equal balance of fat and offensive playstyles, or if the current meta is healthy.
i'm pretty much saying stuff that's already been said, but that's my 2 cents :3c.
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