np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned

[Nash.]

Just got reqs so i thought i'd throw my post-ladder experience. This is just from personal experience so please take what i say with a grain of salt.

Originally I thought that Hoopa was definitely in need for a suspect test. It's stats speak for itself as 160/170 offensive split. It's massive coverage and versatility help to be able to take on its own checks. It has virtually no safe switchins until the set of hoopa is confirmed. Then once determined you can plan accordingly. However, i believe that unpredictability is what separates it from other wallbreakers. When you see manaphy or gardevoir, you know what they are going to do. Manaphy is gonna tail glow and Gardevoir is gonna will o wisp/dish out a monsterous hit. Hoopa you can really know until you make a 50/50 switch (that is of course if you have two ways of dealing with it for if its physical or if it's special). It also can single handed destroy fatter/slower teams likes stall. This is coming from someone who 80% plays offensive teams that i think Hoopa is just too powerful for this meta. SO after theorymonning all of this, it was time to test out the meta through practice... on the suspect ladder :

I decided to use Rain cause i figured there would still be a lot of HO like there always is (plus i like using rain kek). I figured it would be an over exaggeration when people were saying "there is gonna be stall all over the ladder". It was interesting to see what people were using to replace their wallbreaker. I saw a decent rise in Hydregion which i like to see. Not saying that is the substitute for hoopa, but it was interesting to see Hydregion around a bit more. I also saw a rise in Mega Garde which i didnt see as much pre-HoopaTest (again all of this is personal experience). Once i got to around 2100 coil i figured i'd keep playing rain until i start seeing a lot more stall, then switch over to my Garde team, but i kept seeing a bunch of HO. It wasn't until like 2600 coil (i was like 1572) until i started seeing stall rise,but i found that sorta of natural, as usually on the original ladder you normally see a spike in stall/balance squads. I talked to some friends about how their ladder experience went and they felt that the stall matchups were a little more difficult.

Post-hoopa test I am still leaning towards hoopa being BANNED, but I am still not entirely convinced. I am still going to read the discussions here as well as lurk through matches that before the suspect voting commences. I believe that hoopa's unpredictability and versatility makes it a dangerous threat. it isn't like other wallbreakers where you know what it is going to do. I know some other pokemon don't have switchins, but i feel they are not nearly as effective as hoopa is . Hoopa is the best wallbreaker in the game, and i think the game will be fine without it

 

[pj]

to the people saying hoopa-u has no "real"switchins so deciding to ban it there are many other mons like kyurem-b, gardevoir mega so you are willing to ban every mon that as no "real"switchins in HO /balance while hoopa-u can get donked by pursuiters ,fast u-turners and priority mons making the player lose momentum.every mon as its own merits and demerits.hoopa-u is also frail,,,

Being weak to hoopa-u is team building error this can be corrected by making plays or having a specific mon. I do agree it makes a team building restrictive so how doesn't stall make team restrictive ?_? .There are many mons that makes team building restrictive if don't prepare for it why would u blame the mon instead of ur team building ._. alsoi don't think banning a mon based on making team building restrictive and having "no switchins" are the factors to ban a mon.

if they are why isn't every hard wall breaker banned >_<

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Being weak to hoopa-u is team building error this can be corrected by making plays or having a specific mon. I do agree it makes a team building restrictive so how doesn't stall make team restrictive ?_?

I'm hoping you're joking with your entire post. The rest of your post is equally as laughable, but this part stood out to me.
Is there any way you can name those specific 'mons? Because the rest of us seem to be drawing a blank on whatever this specific mon is.
Also, I'm not going to point out how comparing a single Pokemon to an entire playstyle is REALLY stretching, again. . .

 

[Siggu]

Re: the fucking stupid Hydreigon comparisons, here's a major difference your theorymon seems to be lacking. Hydreigon to be anywhere fucking near unwallable needs to be mixed with Pulse / Draco / Superpower / Flash Cannon and even then AV Torn waltzes in and back out, U Turning and gaining momentum while it does so. Going mixed forces Hydreigon to go for LO which huuuuuuugely reduces longevity, with all the sand going round losing 16% a turn compared to none is fucking mediocre. I shouldn't even have to go into the monumental power diff so I'll leave that there as it is.

Not to mention that Hoopa's STABs are not stopped cold by a single type of Pokemon that deals 4x SE damage to it... and while it's Focus Miss, Hoopa does not need to use an 80 BP move to have any chance of getting past those resists.

There's a similar case with other powerful wallbreakers/stallbreakers: Yes, Azumarill, Manaphy and Gardevoir can be a nightmare... but they are predictable nightmares. Specs Hoopa-U may be one of them, but it can run something completely different to throw you out. One must not forget that Hoopa-U is the third or fourth most powerful physical attacker and the strongest special AND mixed attacker among viable Pokemon in OU. Band, Specs, LO, Expert Belt or even something comparatively silly like Blackglasses or Twistedspoon works if powering up its STAB is prioritized.

But let's forget about them...

The "just Pursuit-trap it" argument is not exactly what I'd call a solid one. Sure, right, it has bad defenses (Especially if Banded) and Pursuit-trapping is a perfectly viable answer against Choice-locked Pokemon. What if Specs stops being a common set due to the ubiquity of Pursuit-trappers and uses something like, say, Expert Belt (Remember, Pursuit can perfectly not-KO Hoopa if it stays, then uses Drain Punch and recovers all lost HP)? Then your answer stops being Pursuit and you go straight to something like Crunch, but then Hoopa could just switch out...

You need a better answer if you want Hoopa-U to stay IMO, Pursuit is viable, but unreliable.

 

[Cresselia92]

I'm hoping you're joking with your entire post. The rest of your post is equally as laughable, but this part stood out to me.
Is there any way you can name those specific 'mons? Because the rest of us seem to be drawing a blank on whatever this specific mon is.
Also, I'm not going to point out how comparing a single Pokemon to an entire playstyle is REALLY stretching, again. . .

Actually, I think there is a rather underrated Pokemon which can handle Hoopa-Unbound rather reliably and can help scout it: Shuckle. If paired with ScarfTar, it can pretty much tank attacks from all versions of Hoopa-Unbound (even better if it is already under Sand) and cripple it with Knock Off or Encore, reducing significantly its offensive prowess or gaining some momentum and allowing its teammates to handle it a bit better. These calcs should show you what it is capable to withstand:

Calcs

Vs. Choice Specs Hoopa-U

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 114-135 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle in Sand: 76-91 (31.1 - 37.2%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 93-111 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In Sand, Shuckle is very well able to withstand Hoopa's most spammable attack, but beware of flinching.

Vs. Life Orb Hoopa-U

96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 101-121 (41.3 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle in Sand: 68-82 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

Vs. Choice Band Hoopa-U

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 109-130 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

This, admittedly, is a shaky check, but it is still relatively reliable. And if you find out that it is Band, you can later cripple it with burns and/or physical walls.

Vs. Choice Scarf Hoopa-U

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 75-88 (30.7 - 36%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO

Sure, Shuckle is an extremely passive Pokemon, but it can fit in stall relatively well and can help somewhat balance by applying Sticky Webs/Stealth Rocks and crippling Hoopa and teammates with Toxic/Knock Off. This is the closest I could find to a Hoopa-U's hard check, which says a lot about its incredible versatility and power.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Actually, I think there is a rather underrated Pokemon which can handle Hoopa-Unbound rather reliably and can help scout it: Shuckle. If paired with ScarfTar, it can pretty much tank attacks from all versions of Hoopa-Unbound (even better if it is already under Sand) and cripple it with Knock Off or Encore, reducing significantly its offensive prowess or gaining some momentum and allowing its teammates to handle it a bit better. These calcs should show you what it is capable to withstand:

Calcs

Vs. Choice Specs Hoopa-U

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 114-135 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle in Sand: 76-91 (31.1 - 37.2%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 93-111 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In Sand, Shuckle is very well able to withstand Hoopa's most spammable attack, but beware of flinching.

Vs. Life Orb Hoopa-U

96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 101-121 (41.3 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle in Sand: 68-82 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

Vs. Choice Band Hoopa-U

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 109-130 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

This, admittedly, is a shaky check, but it is still relatively reliable. And if you find out that it is Band, you can later cripple it with burns and/or physical walls.

Vs. Choice Scarf Hoopa-U

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 75-88 (30.7 - 36%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO

Sure, Shuckle is an extremely passive Pokemon, but it can fit in stall relatively well and can help somewhat balance by applying Sticky Webs/Stealth Rocks and crippling Hoopa and teammates with Toxic/Knock Off. This is the closest I could find to a Hoopa-U's hard check, which says a lot about its incredible versatility and power.

You tried, and that's at least more than most of the people here are doing, which I'm content with so I'll go easy on the sarcasm. :] But, it's also freaking Shuckle. . . This can be equated to the legendary P2 argument of Ninja/Mence. Sticky Web is cool and all, and Shuckle is by no means useless by any stretch of the word, but, it's not something that you should have to run to cover your ass in the event you run into Hoopa.

 

[baddummy]

I'm hoping you're joking with your entire post. The rest of your post is equally as laughable, but this part stood out to me.
Is there any way you can name those specific 'mons? Because the rest of us seem to be drawing a blank on whatever this specific mon is.
Also, I'm not going to point out how comparing a single Pokemon to an entire playstyle is REALLY stretching, again. . .

You tried, and that's at least more than most of the people here are doing, which I'm content with so I'll go easy on the sarcasm. :] But, it's also freaking Shuckle. . . This can be equated to the legendary P2 argument of Ninja/Mence. Sticky Web is cool and all, and Shuckle is by no means useless by any stretch of the word, but, it's not something that you should have to run to cover your ass in the event you run into Hoopa.

EDIT: Removed the calc, didn't realize I didn't have sand up lol. I still stick to my statement though.

You don't have to run shuckle at all. If you don't want to lose to Hoopa-U, the best way of doing that is to apply offensive pressure, and limit switch-in opportunities. If you don't want to do that, and insist on running 5 fat mons, then considering it is almost always choiced, you can make the 6th something like TTar, then you can pursuit trap it. This isn't just for Hoopa either, because spike stack likes to be able to trap latis too, and make starmie wary of spinning. It isn't defence that gets wrecked by Hoopa, it is very passive defence that can't pressure it at all. If you don't want to run any of the former methods, then yeah I guess you do lose to Hoopa-U, and there's zero problem with that.

The key questions are:
Is the meta with Hoopa-U competitive and skill based? I believe it is.
Are you forced to run otherwise unviable mons to deal with Hoopa-U? "Deal with" is different from having a guaranteed switch in for it, so I don't believe you are.

If the answers to those questions are "yes" and "no", then there is zero reason to preserve the 6 fatmon Chansey/Skarm/Quag/Sab/Bulky filler/Bulky filler build that Hoopa-U decimates. What you're missing out on is that it is perfectly possible in a competitive meta for a formerly decent style to become much worse, and not be used anymore. This isn't about whether stall stays good or not, this is about whether Hoopa-U allows for a skill based tier.

 

[HailFall]

Actually, I think there is a rather underrated Pokemon which can handle Hoopa-Unbound rather reliably and can help scout it: Shuckle. If paired with ScarfTar, it can pretty much tank attacks from all versions of Hoopa-Unbound (even better if it is already under Sand) and cripple it with Knock Off or Encore, reducing significantly its offensive prowess or gaining some momentum and allowing its teammates to handle it a bit better. These calcs should show you what it is capable to withstand:

Calcs

Vs. Choice Specs Hoopa-U

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 114-135 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle in Sand: 76-91 (31.1 - 37.2%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 93-111 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In Sand, Shuckle is very well able to withstand Hoopa's most spammable attack, but beware of flinching.

Vs. Life Orb Hoopa-U

96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle: 101-121 (41.3 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shuckle in Sand: 68-82 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

Vs. Choice Band Hoopa-U

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 109-130 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

This, admittedly, is a shaky check, but it is still relatively reliable. And if you find out that it is Band, you can later cripple it with burns and/or physical walls.

Vs. Choice Scarf Hoopa-U

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 75-88 (30.7 - 36%) -- 47% chance to 3HKO

Sure, Shuckle is an extremely passive Pokemon, but it can fit in stall relatively well and can help somewhat balance by applying Sticky Webs/Stealth Rocks and crippling Hoopa and teammates with Toxic/Knock Off. This is the closest I could find to a Hoopa-U's hard check, which says a lot about its incredible versatility and power.

okay um this also makes me think of a little something from the tiering policy thread where it defines "broken" so i thought i should share

C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.

The fact that you would consider splashing a shuckle+sand core as your (shaky) hoopa check on a stall team (especially considering that shuckle is kind of an assmon overall) should be proof enough that hoopa unbound is broken.

 

[Wings of Night]

Just got reqs, just wanna share my opinion about Hoopa.

We all know it can run multiple sets with different checks and basically 2HKO the entire metagame, isn't necessarily deadweight vs any playstyle (it beats many pokemon on offense 1v1 or forces them out like electrics, manaphy, lati twins, zam, gengar etc so it's matchup vs offense isn't as bad as some make it out to be) and stall won't become nearly as dominant as it was when Shadow Tag was around because there are still plenty of other wall/stallbreakers looking at Garde, Heatran, Crawdaunt, Torn-T, Manaphy, heracross, Serperior... the list goes on.

Still... I don't think it is that unhealthy for the metagame or should be banned. Although it doesn't have any true counters and 2HKOes everything with the right move I think there are enough ways of dealing with Hoopa-Unbound, even for balance. The choiced sets (it's so called best sets) are heavily reliant on prediction because they either risk getting pursuit trapped by Tyranitar (which is kinda standard on Balance and even useful on stall because pursuit traps hoopa and many hazard removers) or catching something that can take a drain punch/focus blast like Clef or torn which both are still considered as checks and can be used to sort of prevent the hoopa user from clicking it's fighting move. Especially banded Hoopa has a problem with Pursuit because it just dies to pursuit after it clicked hyperspace fury once. Outside of Pursuit, there are still some solid one time checks on balance which can take most of Hoopa's hits once and kill or heavily damage it like Mega Sciz, Hippo, Lando, Diancie, Keldeo and even that's often enough as long as you play smart and don't abuse your extremely passive fat psychic to give Hoopa 1 million free switch ins and if you do so, there's still Ttar to more or less deal with Hoopa.

I also don't think just because Hoopa can practically 2HKO everything it is broken. There is even some more ridiculous shit at wallbreaking like Mega Heracross which has immense defensive utility (it has a good chance to live an lo psyshock from latias lol) for a wallbreaker, isn't weak to pursuit at all and has even less switch ins than Hoopa. I'm not saying that Mega Heracross should get suspected or is better than Hoopa but if you're saying Hoopa should get banned for those reasons then you might as well consider banning some bigger problems.

It's matchup is still kinda poor vs offense (not entirely garbage but it still has a far better matchup vs balance/stall) especially because there are tons of landos, which force hoopa to die or lose momentum and there are much more dark resists which sort of one time check or revenge kill it while it's switch in opportunies are very limited so it's matchup reliant too.

Imo the only reason why it could deserve a ban is because stall teams can't really prepare for it (except something like scarftar) and just get 6-0d by any Hoopa variant but then again there is also stuff like TG RD Manaphy, Crawdaunt, Mega Heracross or Life Orb Torn which all tear stall teams apart easily.

So yeah, I'm voting for no ban.

 

[HailFall]

Just got reqs, just wanna share my opinion about Hoopa.

We all know it can run multiple sets with different checks and basically 2HKO the entire metagame, isn't necessarily deadweight vs any playstyle (it beats many pokemon on offense 1v1 or forces them out like electrics, manaphy, lati twins, zam, gengar etc so it's matchup vs offense isn't as bad as some make it out to be) and stall won't become nearly as dominant as it was when Shadow Tag was around because there are still plenty of other wall/stallbreakers looking at Garde, Heatran, Crawdaunt, Torn-T, Manaphy, heracross, Serperior... the list goes on.

Still... I don't think it is that unhealthy for the metagame or should be banned. Although it doesn't have any true counters and 2HKOes everything with the right move I think there are enough ways of dealing with Hoopa-Unbound, even for balance. The choiced sets (it's so called best sets) are heavily reliant on prediction because they either risk getting pursuit trapped by Tyranitar (which is kinda standard on Balance and even useful on stall because pursuit traps hoopa and many hazard removers) or catching something that can take a drain punch/focus blast like Clef or torn which both are still considered as checks and can be used to sort of prevent the hoopa user from clicking it's fighting move. Especially banded Hoopa has a problem with Pursuit because it just dies to pursuit after it clicked hyperspace fury once. Outside of Pursuit, there are still some solid one time checks on balance which can take most of Hoopa's hits once and kill or heavily damage it like Mega Sciz, Hippo, Lando, Diancie, Keldeo and even that's often enough as long as you play smart and don't abuse your extremely passive fat psychic to give Hoopa 1 million free switch ins and if you do so, there's still Ttar to more or less deal with Hoopa.

I also don't think just because Hoopa can practically 2HKO everything it is broken. There is even some more ridiculous shit at wallbreaking like Mega Heracross which has immense defensive utility (it has a good chance to live an lo psyshock from latias lol) for a wallbreaker, isn't weak to pursuit at all and has even less switch ins than Hoopa. I'm not saying that Mega Heracross should get suspected or is better than Hoopa but if you're saying Hoopa should get banned for those reasons then you might as well consider banning some bigger problems.

It's matchup is still kinda poor vs offense (not entirely garbage but it still has a far better matchup vs balance/stall) especially because there are tons of landos, which force hoopa to die or lose momentum and there are much more dark resists which sort of one time check or revenge kill it while it's switch in opportunies are very limited so it's matchup reliant too.

Imo the only reason why it could deserve a ban is because stall teams can't really prepare for it (except something like scarftar) and just get 6-0d by any Hoopa variant but then again there is also stuff like TG RD Manaphy, Crawdaunt, Mega Heracross or Life Orb Torn which all tear stall teams apart easily.

So yeah, I'm voting for no ban.

The difference is that life orb torn, manaphy, m hera, and crawdaunt apply a lot of pressure to stall but still have checks or can be played around. Unaware cm clef beats manaphy (the biggest threat on this list imo). Life orb torn can be worn down by stall by keeping rocks up and getting it statused, or by running zapdos. Stall has a hard time with daunt but it has some difficulty setting up with stuff like whirlwind skarm, spore + clear smog amoon, and chesnaught existing (i know aerial ace daunt is a thing but its ass imo because chesanught is so rare in ou anyways). Mega hera is another big threat but stuff like skarm can always survive a hit w/o rocks up and retaliate with brave bird, physdef sap sipper azu beats it, and it cant set up on sableye. Its also worth considering that a lot of these mons are less effective against offense than hoopa is. crawdaunt is overly reliant on aqua jet, tg + 3 attacks manaphy is much more effective vs offense than tg + rd, and m hera is slow enough that offense wears it down pretty easily even if it lacks switchins. Hoopa can come in on any number of pivots and wreak havoc on anything offense tries to send in with some clever prediction, and can also viably run scarf to serve as an effective rkiller. Unlike these mons (except torn which is s for a reason lmao), hoopa also needs no setup to be effective and starts to put in work the second it goes out.

 

[AM]

No discussion on the suspect process is one of the things in the OP and complaining about the requirements is going to get your post deleted. Stick to the topics at hand thanks.

Edit: I'm also deleting comments asking to suspect other stuff to.

 

[TheNegativeOne]

PFFFFFFFFFFT. I thought I was fucking Saitama with how much I said "Ok." to this suspect.

I know I'm not going to bring up anything unique or anything that hasn't been said before, but while this thing has no true "Counters", in the sense of what a counter is, it's different than something like Greninja, who also 2HKO'ed every viable Pokemon in the metagame, because Greninja wasn't fucking DEADWEIGHT against Offense. Hoopa U is disgustingly horrid against Offense due to: Its vulnerability to priority and U-Turn, the fact that it LITERALLY RESISTS NOTHING, is a gigantic shot to the foot to synergy, and the fact that it simply isn't as insane as people think. "But it can run Specs! It can run Band! It can run Scarf! It can run Life Orb!" You act as if it has all of those at once. Choice sets bar Scarf are weak as fuck to being Pursuit trapped, and I'm going to counter the argument "It's extremely prediction heavy to beat it." It's also extremely prediction heavy to use the Choice sets to their maximum potential, don't forget that.

Allow me to also bring up the point that Hoopa is absolute DEAD WEIGHT against Offense. Priority shits on it, Mega Lopunny shits on it, (Mega) Scizor shits on it, Keldeo can shit on it with either Secret Sword or Scald Burns, Tornadus T shits on it, Pursuit trappers shit on it, and so on. Let's also not forget that Offense is still the most dominant playstyle now, yeah? Yes, you know what, Hoopa U is powerful. Yes, you know what, Hoopa U is one of the best pokemon in OU without a doubt. No, you know what, Hoopa U is not banworthy. Don't even fucking compare it to Landorus-I or Greninja. THAT, is jokeworthy.

 

[Seth_]

Someone said that hoopa is decent against offence because of scarf set.

Problem is that scarf hoopa is definitely one of the worst scarf mon in OU (still better than scarf bisharp but that's not huge achievement). Why it is bad?

1. Almost always loses against priority.
2. Has bad time switching in. Not even against psychical attackers but also against special ones like Keldeo, Starmie, Diance, thundurus (both mix and twave), Gardevoir, zard y, sylveon
3. Has hard time picking one move and sweeping offence. Psychic, dark and fighting are common resist on offence teams.
4. Is slow scarf. Still quicker than bisharp and heatran but every common scarf (garchomp, lando, drill, jirachi) is quicker. There are even few megas faster than scarf hoopa. But that's not the end, the OU dance masters (zardx, mgyarados) outspeed hoopa at +1.
5. Have no extra utility beside being fast. Lando has intimidate plus u-turn, drill cleans hazards, garchomp has rough skin and defensive typing, while jirachi has so many utilities that it is hard to list.

Only real advantage of scarf hoopa is surprise element (aka gimmick).

Yeah, so maybe spec hoopa is good against offence? Guess what, still no because offence is this playstyle when you have no problem with sacking one mon to bring revenge killer or pursuit traper and have fair 1 for 1 trade. Moreover, small defensive cores in offence like ldefensive lando t+rotom are often used whit volturn what makes them hard to catch. And even if you manges to do it offence player still has 4 more mons, ready to sac.

 

[Aberforth]

Why does the disgustingly powerful wallbreaker need to 6-0 offense as well as stall and balance to be broken? Ya hyperbole and whatnot but seriously, all these posts about offense and not a single good switch in to hoopa has been mentioned. A pokemon doesn't need to be perfect to be banworthy, which is why our banlist isn't just Mega Ray, Primal Groudon and Arceus.

 

[TheNegativeOne]

Why does the disgustingly powerful wallbreaker need to 6-0 offense as well as stall and balance to be broken? Ya hyperbole and whatnot but seriously, all these posts about offense and not a single good switch in to hoopa has been mentioned. A pokemon doesn't need to be perfect to be banworthy, which is why our banlist isn't just Mega Ray, Primal Groudon and Arceus.

Yes, true, but it's not overcentralizing to the point where "Damn I'm weak to Greninja because I literally just made a normal fucking team. Time to add Porygon 2." Stall has issues with it, yeah. Stall has issues with a lot of mons. Hoopa's just really great against Stall and Balance (most of the time. I've seen some pretty dank Balance teams in my days). But Offense, Bulky Offense, and sometimes even Balance doesn't even need to run anything special to beat Hoopa-U. Usually they can handle it just fine with what they normally run. Also, Hoopa-U not having any 100% reliable switchins isn't as viable of an argument when you realize that it can't run Dark Pulse, Psyshock, Focus Blast, Thunder(bolt), HP Ice, and Fire Punch on the same set. Yes, it causes you to have to carefully play around it to find out what moves it has and the specific set it's running. But y'know what, a lot of pokemon do that. Kyurem-B does that to a lesser extent, Thundurus can do that, Charizard X can do that, Manaphy does that to just the same extreme, and so on. I honestly fail to see why people are screaming bloody murder at HUpa while we've had pokemon that do the same thing that it's done for a long ass time now.

 

[squidlick]

But y'know what, a lot of pokemon do that. Kyurem-B does that to a lesser extent, Thundurus can do that, Charizard X can do that, Manaphy does that to just the same extreme, and so on. I honestly fail to see why people are screaming bloody murder at HUpa while we've had pokemon that do the same thing that it's done for a long ass time now.

Apart from Hoopa-U having higher offenses than any of those Pokemon(although Kyurem-B eclipses Hoopa-U's Attack by just 10 base points, Hoopa still has overall higher offenses with its Special Attack taken into account), there are things separating Hoopa-U from these examples.

Kyurem-B is weak to rocks and has a pretty bad defensive typing. Hoopa-U might have a quad Bug weakness, but at least a 4th of its health isn't sliced away by pebbles.

Thundurus is also weak to rocks. And it's frail on both attacking sides. Hoopa can at least stomach some powerful special attacks.

Charizard X...third time's the charm. And it requires setup to do any wall breaking.

Manaphy also needs setup to become the stall killer it is. If that is denied, Manaphy really isn't anything special and can be killed off easily.

Hoopa-U is like a lesser Deoxys-A when you think about it. Only slower. That's why people scream bloody murder at it. No setup required. Not weak to rocks. Insanely versatile. None of those by themselves are on Hoopa-U's level.

 

[Seth_]

"Hoopa-U is like a lesser Deoxys-A when you think about it. Only slower."

I love comparisment like that. Hoopa-u is like magickarp, only stronger.

Only mon in this game which is similar to hoopa-u is hoopa-c. Every other wallbreakrr have diffrent coverage, difrent sets and difrent checks.

 

[TURBODERP]

Why does Hoopa need to run HP Ice/Fire Punch?

Specs moves 2HKO everything in the tier, and unless they bring in a Pursuit user, you can just switch out Hoopa for no real loss since you dealt over 50% to the switchin anyways.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

"b-b-but it can't do anything to offense, it's deadweight against offense"

Remember that when it's face to face with your special attacker, that isn't Keldeo locked into SS.
If you're going to make claims to try and defend your stance, put at least a little bit of thought into it please.
Let's not act like Hoopa ONLY beats stall. Regardless of the team match up, it can very well get a kill or two, or more. It will get chances to get a kill vs balance as well as offense, so let's let off on the exaggeration in the hopes that the rest of us won't actually think about what you're saying. That may work on the Smogon Facebook page where no one knows what the hell they're talking about, but I promise you we will dissect everything you say.

 

[Firebird101]

The fatter your team is, the more trouble it is gonna have with Hoopa. It is as simple as that. HO is the only playstyle that doesn't really care about Hoopa because they sack stuff to everything. So saying Hoopa is a deadweight against offense undermines the fact that not everything can ohko Hoopa. Volt-turn are especially good at making it easier for Hoopa to get inside and get a kill, including bulky offense. The only thing stopping Hoopa from mindlessly spamming is that most teams before the suspect came up had good amount of dark resists to battle the oversized genie. But even then at best the players are forced into mindgames determined by what move Hoopa is gonna get choice-locked into (and heaven forbid if it's the dread plate set). Specs Hoopa alone can kill practically everything that can be thrown at it so I am not even sure why I want to run another set beside lure sets.

But whatever, other people have pointed out Hoopa's pros and cons numerous times already so I think the best thing you can do is to play the ladder instead of bickering debating and ask ourselves if Hoopa detriments the OU metagame. Cause it is easy to just point at it's strengths or flaws and pick a side but it is more important to ask what effect Hoopa has on the metagame and will the metagame get better with Hoopa banned?

 

[KztxL7]

Yes, true, but it's not overcentralizing to the point where "Damn I'm weak to Greninja because I literally just made a normal fucking team. Time to add Porygon 2." Stall has issues with it, yeah. Stall has issues with a lot of mons. Hoopa's just really great against Stall and Balance (most of the time. I've seen some pretty dank Balance teams in my days). But Offense, Bulky Offense, and sometimes even Balance doesn't even need to run anything special to beat Hoopa-U. Usually they can handle it just fine with what they normally run. Also, Hoopa-U not having any 100% reliable switchins isn't as viable of an argument when you realize that it can't run Dark Pulse, Psyshock, Focus Blast, Thunder(bolt), HP Ice, and Fire Punch on the same set. Yes, it causes you to have to carefully play around it to find out what moves it has and the specific set it's running. But y'know what, a lot of pokemon do that. Kyurem-B does that to a lesser extent, Thundurus can do that, Charizard X can do that, Manaphy does that to just the same extreme, and so on. I honestly fail to see why people are screaming bloody murder at HUpa while we've had pokemon that do the same thing that it's done for a long ass time now.

I just want to say that the impression I get from your stance is that you're speaking as if its Hoopa-U alone against an entire team.

This isn't 1 v 6. This is 6 v 6 and if Hoopa-U finds something its clearly not going to want to fight its going to switch out. Meaning all fatter and slower teams NEED Pursuit or they will get destroyed by Hoopa-U.

 

[Clair]

Hoopa U is disgustingly horrid against Offense due to: Its vulnerability to priority and U-Turn, the fact that it LITERALLY RESISTS NOTHING, is a gigantic shot to the foot to synergy, and the fact that it simply isn't as insane as people think. "But it can run Specs! It can run Band! It can run Scarf! It can run Life Orb!" You act as if it has all of those at once. Choice sets bar Scarf are weak as fuck to being Pursuit trapped, and I'm going to counter the argument "It's extremely prediction heavy to beat it." It's also extremely prediction heavy to use the Choice sets to their maximum potential, don't forget that.

Yeah, so maybe spec hoopa is good against offence? Guess what, still no because offence is this playstyle when you have no problem with sacking one mon to bring revenge killer or pursuit traper and have fair 1 for 1 trade. Moreover, small defensive cores in offence like ldefensive lando t+rotom are often used whit volturn what makes them hard to catch. And even if you manges to do it offence player still has 4 more mons, ready to sac.

The "Hoopa is bad against offense so it shouldn't be banned" argument has been rehashed and refuted on probably every page of this thread already. Please guys just read and understand the arguments which have already been made, so you understand what you're replying to.

Dot-points (seriously though, I'm just repeating what others have said)

• "Just run offense" is not a valid argument. We don't specifically try to protect the viability of playstyles, but when Hoopa is as dominant against balance and stall as it is, it's not a problem which is significantly mitigated by its mediocre performance against offense.
• Similarly, saying that teams can deal with Hoopa by saccing something and forcing it out is not valid.
• With all that said, Hoopa finds ample opportunity in most offense matchups to force a one for one trade, thanks to its special bulk, and then subsequently be used as death fodder. It even checks stuff like Gengar and Zam.
• Choiced Hoopa literally spams its Dark STAB 90% of the time, I wouldn't call that prediction reliant.
• Vulnerability to Pursuit affects its viability but not significantly. Firstly because "just run Pursuit" is insane overcentralisation, and second, because the only playstyles which are scared of Hoopa and thus would want to Pursuit it (ceding momentum), often can't afford to sac something to get their trapper in safely.

Just to re-iterate, because I think it's important - it shouldn't matter that Hoopa is an average mon when facing offense. If it's good enough to seriously discourage running any other playstyle (while also placing serious constraints on teambuilding within those playstyles), then it should be banned.

 

[Srn]

Yeah i'm pretty tired of seeing people say "oh man hoopa is horrid against offense, there are plenty of wallbreakers that are good against stall/balance and hate offense too!!"

Choice specs has zero switch-ins, even mons like tg+rd manaphy need some support to get going against stall. Hoopa-u is completely independent and will destroy stall on its own as long as it clicks the right moves.
Because it has absolutely no switch-ins to just one set (remember no other pokemon has this and boasts the same level on consistency (cb tyrantrum head smash is not consistent, dark pulse and psyshock are)), it limits teambuilding to a huge extent. It's good sdef makes rotom-w, slowbro, amoonguss after spore, mega venu, sdef tran, mew, defensive starmie, etc etc all free switch-ins, and basically free kills unless you have a pursuit trapper on your stall team (the concept of that alone is pretty retarded, full stall having to run a scarf tar to not get 6-0d)

But hold up! we've adapted to the metagame and we can handle it just by using pursuit trappers, right!
WRONG. Sure, pursuit trapping is the best way to handle it, but it is by no means sufficient. No pursuit trapper switches in safely (unlike av gross/ttar switching into lati) and hoopa can even run these cool items called expert belt and dark plate to bluff specs and catch the trapper with a focus blast when it thinks you're locked into STAB. Let's just clear up this misconception that pursuit-trapping is sufficient counterplay to hoopa-u, because it is not even close. It's simply the best half-assed countermeasure available to not get totally run over.

"But u-turn forces it in such a bad position, it makes sure you get momentum!" While it's true that u-turn is annoying for hoopa-u, no threatening u-turn user switches in safely, so if it's being threatened by u-turn that means it probably picked up a kill, and did its job (yes, it did its job even against offense). Why do people think offense handles hoopa easily or something? As if hoopa doesn't 1v1 alakazam, thundurus, manectric, latios, raikou, magnezone, heatran, gengar god knows what else i'm missing.
And that's not even going into choice scarf, which offense has a grand total of zero switch-ins for. I read somewhere earlier that other scarfers like keldeo, lando-t, chomp, rachi brought utility to the team, but all of those have checks that can easily fit onto offense teams. Hoopa has absolutely nothing, and that alone should be enough to solidify its position against offense. God i dont want to ever read "hur dur offense destroys it" ever again please.

tl; dr ban hoopa-u

 

[MANNAT]

Ok so I've changed my opinion on hoopa from suspect laddering for a bit, and I'm about 500 coil from reqs with about 5 losses on my alt atm so I think I'm ok to talk about this. People say that Hoopa is broken because specific playstyles, specifically stall, have to run a pursuit trapper to reliably beat it. However, the same could be said about offense and megazam since offense needs to run multiple priority users+a mon that can switch into it decently well if you don't want it to get a kill every time it comes in. If you wanna look at it from a stall perspective, most stall has to run banded weavile to beat tornt reliably since msab is 2hko'd by hurri, spdef skarm takes like 95+% from heat wave, knock+superpower snaps chansey's neck, hurri smacks quag, hurri and heat wave smack amoong, hurri hits clef, etc. Also, tornt has much better bulk and speed than Hoopa along with a better defensive typing, and it is overall a much better mon than Hoopa. I'm not saying tornt should be suspected, I'm just using it as a vehicle of comparison since it is just as good against stall if not moreso than hoopa-u and it has quite a few less flaws than Hoopa. Granted Hoopa is a really good mon, but it isn't good enough to be banned imo. I've used stall quite a bit during suspect and barring shit like LO tornt+mana+mhera or stall ct bullshit like that, I've had a really easy time dealing with ladder. I know broken checking broken isn't a good argument, but Hoopa isn't broken in the first place and it provides a valuable niche of checking stall extremely well, which is something good for the meta. That's why I've changed my opinion to no ban.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them :]

 

[FlamingVictini]

Hey guys,

I usually don't want to bother making a long post saying my thoughts on a suspect, but I'm kind of on the fence regarding this one (leaning ban atm though), so I think if I vocalize my internal thoughts it might help me discover my actual position as I write this.

The main reason why I think hoopa was even pushed for a suspect was because of the Specs set. I've found band to be good but sometimes underwhelming as a breaker because there are just more ways to take it on when its all physical, and i've found scarf to be additionally underwhelming as a breaker but otherwise decently good against offense (not saying its bad, but its definitely nothing suspect worthy). The specs set is imo easily the best set hoopa has rn (although i've been tempted to think that LO mixed can also be very destructive with the right team), just because of the way this meta isn't as good at handling its strong special attacks (think about the omnipresence of tank chomp, lando-t, etc. that is focused on handling physical threats) and it can also utilize psyshock to hit the mons that CAN tank its special hits and threaten it out, like AV torn.

Dark Pulse, Psyshock, and Focus Blast (+ the use of wonder room to mess up scarftars and give itself freedom to switch moves, or another coverage move like hp ice) is really difficult to switch into, but its also important to note that the hoopa user must click the right move, otherwise the opponent will be able to force hoopa out. Its also important to realize that hoopa does indeed force many switches when it comes in on a lot of the meta, which means it can create a difficult situation for the opponent. I'm going to call this position where hoopa is in, and the opponent has a (slower mon / mon that cannot ohko it or dent it significantly) facing it (basically it is "forced" to switch), and there is no guaranteed switchin to hoopa, "position x."

The difficult thing to note here is that in position x, if hoopa does click the right move, it can essentially grab a kill right then and there (and this is a position can't be so easily done with any other pokemon), and if it doesn't click the right move, it can only be punished in 3 ways: Pursuit, Hazards, and Pressure (to prevent it from getting future opportunities to create the same situation). If I can support that having at least one of these three things on most ou teams is unreasonable to ask for, then I can claim that hoopa is extremely low risk high reward unless people specifically alter their teams greatly just for hoopa, meaning that it places a massive strain on building but also ingame play and is thus unhealthy for the meta.

I think Hazards are pretty situational since every team doesn't run hazards beyond rocks, so that can't really be considered a reasonable method of pressuring hoopa for every team. Although I think pursuit is extremely good to have in this metagame not just for hoopa but for starmie, lati, torn, zam, etc. (and it also happens to be paired with pursuit very often), its not healthy that teams might be forced to run pursuit just for hoopa. And as many people have already said, pursuit isn't even a guaranteed way to beat hoopa. I don't think I need to elaborate on that but here's a replay to illustrate it: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-353912712

The last thing to consider is pressure. Is it reasonable to expect that most teams will be able to pressure hoopa from coming in too often, or that teams with hoopa will be unable to create "position x" consistently enough to get themselves into a highly advantageous position? I think the answer is no. Considering the matchup against offense, some teams just simply don't give hoopa an opportunity to do any damage. This is not true for all offense teams however, since many offense teams have at least one attacker that cannot ohko hoopa, giving it an opportunity to possibly grab a kill. And while hoopa certainly wouldn't be considered unhealthy for the meta beacuse of its matchup vs offensively inclined teams (which generally generate a lot of pressure and momentum), its definitely not deadweight vs even the teams that generally have the most pressure, which is saying something about its matchup vs teams with generally less pressure and momentum. Balance teams and Stall teams obviously have less pressure to force hoopa out throughout the battle, and while I think the good ones are running pursuit, hazards, or both in this metagame, that doesn't mean that every team should be forced to do so just to limit hoopa's ability to dish out serious damage.

Just because some teams can deal with hoopa well enough, doesn't mean that every team can. This still doesn't make hoopa unhealthy for the metagame, however. What does make it unhealthy, in my eyes at the very least, is that it is unreasonable to expect most teams to carry the best methods of dealing with hoopa (which I articulated in the previous parts of this post). Not to compare hoopa to greninja, but the most consistent methods of dealing with ninja were stuff like P2, which again, is unreasonable to expect on most teams in that metagame (and greninja did indeed get banned).

It took me a little time to realize this conclusion because whatever teams I have used, they generally have had enough ways to handle hoopa (offensive teams had a lot of pressure, and my more defensive ones generally have pursuit, hazards, both, and/or a decent amount of offensive mons that can also threaten it back), which is why I haven't struggled with hoopa too much personally (but well played ones can (and have) still do a TON of damage to my teams). Just because I use these teams, however, doesn't mean that everyone else does/should, and the fact of the matter is that in hoopa's situation, it is just unreasonable to expect most teams to carry these countermeasures against hoopa without sacrificing in other areas. Unless someone poses a solid enough counter argument to adjust my current position (most probably by convincing me that it is reasonable to expect most teams to carry sufficient countermeasures to hoopa), I will be voting to Ban Hoopa-Unbound (even though I want more time to play with it ;_;)

sub to my yt channel for suspect laddering lives imo :D