Metagame NP: NU Stage 5 - Levitating [Sigilyph Banned - Post #22]

[etern]

​

Welcome back, after a long time NU is now returning back to suspect testing. Now that the metagame has settled enough to allow us to do 3 month shifts we can begin the next part of our tiering process which allows the community to have their say on the subject at hand. The first Pokemon on the chopping block is Sigilyph. Sigilyph has proven to be both a massive threat in the metagame due to it's insane coverage, fantastic abilities which strengthen its wallbreaking capabilities, and unmatched set diversity which allows it to dismantle many checks and counters it's usual sets have.

Sigilyph's ability Magic Guard is key in making Sigilyph a behemoth against defensive teams due to it's ability to ignore hazard damage and passive status such as Poison and Burn. This means that many defensive cores are rendered as complete fodder for Sigilyph in tandem with the reliable recovery it brings with Roost, thus paving the way for it to steamroll many teams. It can also run effective longterm based wincon sets with Calm Mind and techs like Psycho Shift + Flame Orb, Stored Power, and Substitute. This allows it to win more easily in late game scenarios, once it has managed to whittle away and find the perfect moment to sweep with zero chance of being thwarted. It can also choose to forgo magic guard, giving up its defensive capabilities, and running Tinted Lens alongside Choice Specs in order to spam its stab moves a lot easier. This is able to eliminate a lot more of its checks, and makes it less prediction reliant when having to choose a coverage move.

• ***THIS IS NEW TO SS NU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.​

minimum games needed

GXE​	minimum games​
80​	50​
80.2​	49​
80.4​	48​
80.6​	47​
80.8​	46​
81​	45​
81.2​	44​
81.4​	43​
81.6​	42​
81.8​	41​
82​	40​
82.2​	39​
82.4​	38​
82.6​	37​
82.8​	36​
83​	35​
83.2​	34​
83.4​	33​
83.6​	32​
83.8​	31​
84​	30​

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUBS. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUBS Eternally.​
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
• We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
• The aspect being tested, Sigilyph, will be allowed on the ladder.​
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until January 17th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​

 

[Pabloaram]

What are the requirements to vote??

Edit: Laddering as NUBS Aram

 

[ssuperiority]

What are the requirements to vote??

>The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

 

[FatFighter2]

Is there a voter identification thread?

Edit: Sorry didn't see the above message

 

[Finchinator]

Voter ID will be up eventually. Be patient and use this thread to focus on the discussion of the suspect itself instead.

 

[FatFighter2]

So about the suspect, I'm curious why sigilyph in particular is being suspected. From my experience, sigilyph is certainly a solid mon, and has a niche in the meta, but has never been a world beater, and its usage stats reflect that. Its speed, while good, lets it be outped by common mons such as Mienshao. Its not strong enough to really abuse its wallbreaking potential either. The scariest set imo is the cosmic power set, but Sigilyph, even with investment, is still frail enough that it can be easily beaten through raw power. I can see how sigilyph could be a problem to more defensive teams, but other than that I just don't see what reasons that warrant sigilyph being banned.

Edit: Got reqs as NUBS Fat

 

[BlenderPower]

Here is why I believe sigilyph is not broken in NU



It's easy to revenge kill this thing. While its speed tier is good in the current metagame, there are still many Pokémon that are able to out speed and kill it, or chip it to where another teammate can come in and kill it. There are also many Pokémon able to survive it's attacks and KO back. Let's take a look at some.


While not being able to switch into air slash variants, it can usually come in on a Sigilyph trying to set up. Calm mind and cosmic power Sigilyph can't reliably kill Pangoro unless the Pangoro is severely chipped or you are running air slash. By running air slash on set up sets you are also kind of limiting yourself to other moves that are arguably more useful, such as heat wave or roost. Flame orb sigi also can't beat Pangoro either unless the sigilyth has already gotten a few boosts.

Some calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 408-482 (117.2 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 272-324 (78.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 204-241 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 152-179 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 227-268 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can't switch in but you can take one hit


This is also a pretty good check, while not be able to switch in to life orb or psycho shift Sigilyph, it can always survive one or two hits (just like Pangoro) and kill back with Knock off.

It's also worth noting a burnt knock off still does a large chunk to Sigilyph, putting it in range of other strong attacks.

is similar in that it can't switch in, but once it gets in it will get a kill. It can even disguise as a different Pokémon, like Vileplume, who Sigilyph would otherwise set up on.

While not being that commonly used, (however is still good in the meta) it is one of the best switch ins to sigilyph. One of the best answers to sigilyph's set up boosting sets due to its bulk and typing. Threatening sigilyph with knock off and or dark pulse

Things like and are able to do a decent job at checking calm mind/ 3 attacks sigilyph

0 Atk Bronzong Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 142-168 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 148-177 (43.7 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Copperajah Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 195-231 (68.4 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 172 HP / 252+ SpD Copperajah: 208-247 (46.5 - 55.7%) -- 51.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Additonally, things like Are able to sponge up hits nicely, and can kill back with rock moves. gigalith is underrated pls use.

Speaking of rocks, there's also which can switch into life orb sigi once, and ko back.

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aerodactyl also revenges, and while not being that good, it still finds itself on many teams.

Electrics like scarf and are also able to reliably threaten Sigilyph. The former being able to cripple sigilyph with trick, and the latter being able to threaten a KO on Sigilyph. With toxricity banned, I expect to see things like heliolisk see more use, which is why I included it here.

252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 314-372 (110.1 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 210-248 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With just a little bit of chip, things like and are able to KO Sigilyph.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 257-304 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 172-203 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 344-406 (98.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 230-272 (66 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Speaking of Starmie, it's actually really good against Sigilyph. Not caring about status, resisting psychic and fire, which is the most common coverage for sigilyph. You need to be careful around life orb 3 attacks sigilyph, however it can be worked around. Sigi also doesn't want to take your attacks.

Inteleon is not that good, but I have seen quite a few of them so that's why I included inteleon in this post.

Some other team compositions that do extremely well against sigilyth which are hail and electric terrain. While both have their flaws in the current meta and aren't used often. Their usage combined means that while not extremely prevalent, are still teams that absolutely love seeing sigilyph.


Sigilyth also cannot withstand very strong attacks. While it is incredibly good, it struggles against offense teams.

It can't switch into salazzle, and is two hit ko'd by sludge wave/ flamethrower

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 168-198 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mienshao? it can u-turn on you or knock you

252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 248-294 (87 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

There's also other examples, but the point is that sigi is frail and can't just mindlessly switch in to attacks.

Not to mention which all stomach a hit and kill back

if they get burned, they still beat sigi

plus is already on every team to heal bell and check fighters so...

There are probably more reasons but i can't think of any right now...

 

[ThelordofbadRNG]

First blood for NU suspect reqs, usually don't make these kind of posts but I (NU main), just wanted to give my quick thoughts on my (first) impression of the meta.

I really don't think Sigilyph is broken from my (limited ladder) experience I had (this morning) but it does have ridiculous versatility and the stupid choice specs tinted lens set which can break past its usual counters like Bronzong (True story, my incredible 25-0 and 87% GXE ended because of that). It's a Pokemon that can basically pick and choose its checks and counters and under the right conditions it performs ridiculously well. Personally I think that the calm mind sets are outclassed (?) by Articuno-G but all of them have uses and depending on the matchup and particular set Sigilyph is sometimes a sitting duck for the entirety of the match and or an actual menace. It's also just incredibly easy to revenge and its bulk is horrendous without set up. Even some mons like Decidueye, Golurk, Dhelmise still all stomach Air Slash from the flame orb set and beat it even when burned. It also just can't set up as easily as I'd like to think as almost everything has some coverage that hits it for enough damage to the point where its a 5v6 for the Sigilyph player in some matchups.

This is where the negatives (?) end for me.

Let's look at some of the main defensive checks/counters for Sigilyph and how it can circumvent almost all of them.

This loses to tinted lens and cm + psycho shift sets with little to nothing the Bronzong can do in a 1v1.
Same as above.
Can't switch into repeated energy balls and stab psychic and may or may not lose to flame orb.
Same as above.

It's a problem to prep for this thing via defensive checks/counters as it can muscle past all of them with the right set in the right matchup but again, calm mind sets are incredibly passive in most matchups imo so the best way to really utilize this mon is via tinted lens choice specs or magic guard LO 3 atks. There's also just several offensive checks like Golurk, Zoroark, Drapion etc. which all easily either tank a hit and OHKO back or just outspeed and OHKO right then and there so I don't think its broken in all honesty and will probably be voting no ban. I'm probably misinformed as fuck too so feel free to call me out (actual) NU players.

Oh and by the way here's the team I used feel free to recreate it:

Hide

 

[Dieu Amphibien]

Finally got it! Confirming as NUBS ScarfRaichu

Goat Team

* Edit: ups, i'm dumb, i didnt see that wasnt the id thread, so there is my team if some guys want to test it: https://pokepast.es/c80fd66f1873a364

I'm not a NU main so my oppinion may be a bit irrelevant, but i dont think that Sigi must be banned, even with the facility to set up the screens + set up Sigi, he still a bit too slow, has mainy current weakness, and weak to taunt (for the sweeper set). *

 

[poh]

Voter ID thread is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-nu-suspect-process-round-1-voter-id-thread.3675882/

 

[Punchshroom]

I feel some of the posts here either have some misconceptions about Sigilyph or are severely underplaying the power that it is. Let me just address some of these points:

First of all, Cosmic Power is definitely not one of Sigilyph's best/"scariest" sets; in fact it's one of its least threatening relatively speaking. The fact of the matter is that Cosmic Power + Stored Power variants of Flame Orb Sigilyph are both less efficient and less flexible than the Calm Mind + Air Slash variants of Flame Orb Sigilyph. The Air Slash variants have a better mono-attack in that it doesn't have immunities and isn't pitifully weak unboosted, meaning it can be used to wear down Dark-type checks on the switch alongside burn chip to ensure that Sigi gets to outlast them even harder than it already does. The defense boost that Cosmic Power yields is also typically unnecessary as Psycho Shift burn already gives u all the bulk u need to be able to set up safely against what you should (aka: the majority of bulky Rocks and Steels in the tier struggle to threaten even +0 Def Sigilyph when they are burned). Simply put, if you're in a position where Stored Power Sigilyph can win you the game, Air Slash Sigilyph probably already does that as well, if not even earlier.

Second, people are underestimating Sigilyph's sheer offensive versatility. People are already making assumptions about what moves an offensive Sigilyph runs, but there isn't really a main set to pin down. Who said offensive Sigilyph needed CM + 2 attacks to do well; it can still break effectively with a non-boosting set due to its naturally boosted power and its extremely wide coverage. I've even seen 4 attacks variants perform (both the Tinted Lens and the Magic Guard variants), with the 'fight-til-you-drop' mentality that they don't need to Roost when they can just 2HKO nearly the entirety of the meta with their 4-move coverage, and when that includes strong moves like Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball, and Dazzling Gleam, it's very difficult to be safe from this massive array of coverage. Oh what's that? Is the meta shifting more towards offense so Sigilyph can't keep up as well anymore? Fret not, because Sigilyph has run a Focus Sash + Thunder Wave variant in the past and that set is still plenty effective against the majority of offensive Pokemon that want to check it today; this set means that very few offensive Pokemon will be able to best Sigi one-one-one, much less on the switch, all while this Sigilyph can still fall back on its 3-move coverage to continue putting pressure against bulkier teams or just use its Sash + TWave combo (or just its coverage) to instantly shut down a fast wincon.

Let's not also forget Sigilyph's fundamentally good qualities. A good speed tier, Magic Guard, well-rounded stats, and a wide & customizable movepool allows Sigilyph the ability to outlast both its defensive reponses and offensive checks on a fairly consistent basis, as well as giving it a whole host of opportunities to do what it wants in nearly any battle (on a side note, Celebi shares much of these traits as a whole, and I consider this a lowkey suspect-worthy threat as well). Sigilyph can easily dominate winning matchups (often singlehandedly), and even in losing matchups, such as Flame Orb vs aggressive offense, it can still make use of its speed & status immunity to come in and spread burns. There is almost always going to be something that Sigilyph can take advantage of (ex: threatening slower/Choice-locked Fighting-types, uninvested attacks from bulky walls, or pressuring their Steel-type to stay in to be too weakened to take on anything else or just lose to Sigi outright). Shit, Sigilyph's Speed tier is good enough that even Modest nature can be considered to go all in on the holepunching role, letting you achieve calcs like these:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 172 HP / 252+ SpD Copperajah: 229-270 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 164-195 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 168-198 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 110-133 (36.1 - 43.7%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Diancie: 161-192 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 133-159 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- 89.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 218-257 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 390-463 (91.5 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 250-294 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Dhelmise: 328-385 (101.2 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Decidueye: 299-354 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sigilyph has always been a disgustingly versatile offensive threat in every NU it has been in, and there's good reasons why Sigilyph is being listed for suspect even before the bears. I'm under the strong impression that some of you voters aren't recognizing the credit Sigilyph deserves, especially with some of the arguments being put up, such as: how is Bronzong constantly being touted as a good check when it risks losing to every Sigilyph variant 1v1 much less on the switch, how is Taunt reliable at stopping setup Sigilyph when the majority of Taunters are either slower or don't want to get hit by Sigi, Screens Sigilyph(?), and of course Cosmic Power Sigilyph being remotely respectable. Do try not to operate on insufficient/incorrect information on what Sigilyph's capabilities are before solidifying your opinion, folks.

 

[Mariannabelle]

I was a definite DNB until I read Punchshroom ’s post, now I’m not quite as convinced, although I still tend to lean DNB.
In my experience, I think Sigilyph tends to be hard to consistently switch into (considering that most things resembling a switch-in are bait for Psycho Shift or CM). However, I’ve also observed that Sigilyph really wants to be bulkier, faster, and stronger. Sigilyph has good coverage for sure, but at the same time, a lot of things that it wants to beat can opt to stay in and trade damage because even Specs Sigilyph isn’t strong enough to merc them instantly. At the same time, the majority of our faster meta can pin huge amounts of damage on it because of its unimpressive bulk and iffy defensive typing. Things like bulky waters can and do run Haze to prevent being set up on, and critters like P2 can take any hit and Teleport or Flip Turn or whatever to a fast mon that dispatches Sigilyph instantly. If you ask me, offensive teams don’t have issues with Sigilyph, and even a full fat team should have items like Haze to prevent a sweep.

EDIT: I am a moron, P2 is not NU.

—- As far as critters that I do think are problematic are concerned, in my opinion there are at least two that just take teams apart by themselves.

This thing is basically Toxitricity. Your defensive counterplay is limited to a Normal type with a certain ability (Bewear for Tyrantrum, P2 for Toxitricity) and a few grounds that are kinda safe but not actually. Things like Steels that you think would beat it end up just dying to coverage moves.
Like Toxitricity, it sits at a speed tier that puts it above our middlers, and like Toxitricity it has a defensive utility (courtesy of typing and, in Tyrantrum’s case, physical bulk) that makes its nuclear power extremely easy to fit and abuse. Held back slightly by a Mienshao weakness, although LO Shao isn’t safe from Scarf TRex...

If you think Sigilyph is an issue because of Magic Guard, wait until you meet Sub Cresselia. Basically accomplishes the same thing, and is way more dangerous as a numerical gatekeeper because this thing just does not die. In Sigilyph’s case, you can just straight up attack it to put it down. Cress? Cress is an everything check by sheer bulk, and you can’t play a long game against it because it can and will CM -> Stored Power you. It casually uses ‘weak’ (<- sarcasm) mons like max attack Copper and Arcanine (without Toxic) as setup fodder. Drapion does nicely vs it, although it’s depressing to watch. Seriously, you sometimes wouldn’t even win that matchup by spamming Dark STAB without SD or Taunt. Pangoro is a little speed and one moonblast away from the Land of Aliven’t.

—-
Also, I’m not really sold either way on them, but I think and Electric terrain are worth talking about.

 

[Meri Berry]

Replying to a couple things in this thread before I give my full opinions.

Personally I think that the calm mind sets are outclassed (?) by Articuno-G

I think this is just completely false for two reasons. The first is that Articuno-Galar has no coverage that allows it to hit both steels and dark types, often forcing it to either resort to fishing for a freeze using its stab or switch out entirely. The second is that unlike Articuno-Galar which gets forced out by defensive mons that toxic it, Sigilyph has Magic Guard, which allows it to both defeat most defensive mons and also to run Life Orb over Heavy-Duty Boots without drawback (which makes its moves more powerful than Articuno-Galar's unboosted).

If you think Sigilyph is an issue because of Magic Guard, wait until you meet Sub Cresselia. Basically accomplishes the same thing, and is way more dangerous as a numerical gatekeeper because this thing just does not die. In Sigilyph’s case, you can just straight up attack it to put it down. Cress? Cress is an everything check by sheer bulk, and you can’t play a long game against it because it can and will CM -> Stored Power you.

I think Cresselia is super good and possibly broken, but I also think this is wrong, simply because Sub Cresselia either gets no recovery (and can get chipped and attacked in the same way), runs Stored Power (which means you need 2 CMs to do damage and literally can't hit dark types), or Moonblast (which is a very good set, but you can play the long game much more easily against it with a defensive set). There is also a subless set, but this one is largely answered with Toxic in the same way that most setup mons are (which is a large part of the reason I find Sigilyph hard to deal with).


I understand that Sigilyph is not the biggest threat to the tier to most people, myself included, but I think I will be voting ban simply because of the mass amounts of sets that it can use to dismantle cores. The central theme to most Sigilyph sets is that there is very few effective defensive way to beat them. Toxic won't phase it, and a lot of the Haze/Clear Smog users are annoyed by its sheer damage output with Life Orb attacks. This leaves a lot of counterplay to offensive mons, which can either be pressured or killed with predictions from both Life Orb and Flame Orb sets, and often ends up severely crippling defensive cores before ultimately being forced out.

Sigilyph also hosts a large myriad of coverage, such as Heat Wave, Dazzling Gleam, and Energy Ball. This essentially means that if the Sigilyph wielder so chooses, they can choose to not have a bad matchup to certain would-be checks, such as Pangoro, Guzzlord, Clear Smog Gastrodon, Copperajah, and many other mons. Almost none of the Sigilyph checks in the tier will check all or even most of the options it can wield, meaning that most teams must pack multiple answers to stop the mon from dismantling its cores.

Finally, I understand that a lot of people point to Mienshao as a fantastic mon that revenge kills Sigilyph, and its prevalence causing it to be a non-issue. I'd then rather point those people to the banworthiness of Mienshao rather than trying to block this ban, even if some people may agree that there are bigger threats to tackle. Mienshao has a lot of sets, with the nearly unchallenged speed tier from scarf, to the massive power and versatility that Life Orb has, to even the unpredictability and breaking power of CB Reckless. I think its either a borderline or a broken mon, and I don't really buy into the whole "broken checks broken" mentality. I'm willing to admit both are really strong mons, and I don't think an offensive revenge killer's omnipresence diminishes the need for this ban.

Again, these are my opinions, and I fully understand the non-ban side of things on this issue, but I think that I'll be voting ban for the time being.

 

[zee]

yo whats good I just finished getting reqs, in total playing close to 75 games of NU between testing alts and reqs alts over the past few days. Just wanted to say a little bit about what I can draw from the meta with that sample size

First off, let's just get this out of the way: I don't have much to say about Sigilyph that hasn't already been said, its versatility is among its greatest weapons, but its further backed by everything in its toolkit basically allowing it to choose its checks and counters, which in my eyes is the mark of an unhealthy Pokemon. I'll be voting ban.

With that out of the way I just wanna talk about the team I used and stuff I saw on the ladder!


Cresselia @ Kee Berry
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpA / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonlight
- Substitute
I read Mariannabelle's post about Cresselia and got inspired to build a team around it (more on that later).

This set was a demon. I got so many free wins by just getting this thing in on something fat and clicking buttons. Kee Berry is phenomenal because it does 3 amazing things: allows Cress to make up for its lack of physDef boosting options, further boosts Stored Power, and makes you immune to Poltergeist after its activation, as you have no item. With this I really felt like this set had very limited counterplay, pretty much just Dark-types, Toxic, and Trick, the latter two of which even not working on Substitutes. The EV Spread is pretty cool, 433 HP which is a 4n+1 number for 4 subs, but also this guarantees that you live CB Golurk Poltergeist, can Moonlight up on it the following turn and be safe again. Speed is just for creep on other Cress (losing a speed tie on sub and getting Toxic'd would really suck) and SpA just thrown in for a slightly better punch.



I really feel like good bulky offenses (and really anything fatter) have to justify not running Sylveon instead of running it. The utility it provides is just truly incredible, Hyper Voice gives it a strong spammable STAB for turns its not threatened, with the ability to also offer Wish and Cleric support to it and its teammates. In additional, its a phenomenal switchin for what-seems-to-be-the-hot-topic in Mienshao barring something rare like a CB Poison Jab into Poison status. These qualities just make it a phenomenal part of any defensive backbone to add to teams. Here's a replay where Sylveon PP stalled a specs Exploud and got 5 KOs btw.



I don't really think Mienshao is broken or anything as of now, but it is quite good and my opinion on that can change. What I will say is that it offers a phenomenal pivot for a lot of teamstyles, with Band or LO sets being able to leave more of a dent and Scarf being some of the best speed control in the tier save for priority or Ninjask. Regen's nice bc it allows you to somewhat lessen the effects of things like hazards and stray toxic, which are way more potent here than what I'm used to coming from mostly SS OU. Btw if you want some heat to look into:
252+ Atk Choice Band Mienshao Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 343-405 (101.4 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO



I was not impressed by this teamstyle at all if I'm being honest. The way the team has to function most times is rather predictable and as long as you dedicate some time to figuring out this MU in the builder it seems quite fair to navigate.



This thing is crazy. I got mopped by max speed sash SD on one of my testing alts but band with some good baseline level of prediction can also dent things pretty heavily and open up the game for a scarfer or a setup option to clean later on. Urshifu coverage with an actual Poison-type move is something that you have to respect. Thankfully fitting protect on teams isn't too hard and it gets worn down over time, especially by something like toxic if it tries to switchin on Zong greedily.



I played a handful of webs teams on ladder but I really don't think its incredibly effective. Everything in this tier is so fat but at the same time speed control options like Scarf Flygon/Mienshao or Golisopod don't really care.

That's enough ranting and I probably got a few things wrong due to my inexperience, open the spoiler tag for a quick analysis on the team I used bc this post is already long enough.

reqs team

(click for importable)

So yeah, I built this team trying to check everything that could mess up Cress. I got the idea for this teamstyle by revamping a balance build that I was given by Katy to support enabling Cress endgames. U-Turn spam + Hyper Voice + Flygon gives clear cut options to deal with Zoroark / Pangoro / Drapion, Heal Bell can alleviate statuses on breakers or toxic on Cress if it gets desperate enough, and double choice gives you some neat options to stay alive vs a trick scarfer or something. Mantine / Zong / Sylve gives you a fire defensive backbone that can't be punished easily. The team has no ghost resist but as mentioned above you have guaranteed counterplay to Poltergeist spammers and Dhelmise does like 40% to cress on a crit w/ Shadow Claw.

First Impression Flygon was bc I wanted some priority, mostly for things like +1 Speed Starmie and Raichu-A. Hurricane Mantine was cool for 2hkoing Vileplume and Pangoro, prefer it way more to Toxic in that slot. Really enjoyed the Sylveon and Zonger sets as well, you could potentially run a different Steel move on Zonger but EQ and Toxic is perfect coverage imo and Sylv does not need Mystical Fire or Toxic whatsoever really.

Tier is flames, glad I took the time to ladder for reqs.

 

[Davon]

Sigilyph is interesting. I initially thought it was broken, but after my laddering experience, I'm not convinced it's broken. I think every playstyle has ways of dealing with Sigilyph, even defensive teams. The most relevant Sigilyph set is Psyshock / Heat Wave / Calm Mind / Roost, which this one set is near unwallable outside of Guzzlord. Sigilyph can run Dazzling Gleam for Guzzlord, however, it becomes less threatening if it drops CM or Roost. The Flame Orb + Psycho Shift set is great at crippling offensive counter-play to Sigilyph, however, it's not immediately threatening and depends on walling the opponent to boost. Sigilyph is quite frail, so it depends on coming in on a resisted hit, status move, or weak attack like Gastrodon's Scald. Due to Sigilyph's frailty, even CB Golurk and CB Tyrantrum are capable of OHKO'ing 252 HP Sigilyph when burned.

Since there are 2 relevant Sigilyph sets you can figure out which set is which fairly easily since one will reveal Flame Orb. The Life Orb Attacker set is the most threatening set, I think it's safe to assume these sets will always carry Psychic STAB + Heat Wave, then the last 2 move slots are what you have to scout for. I think these last 2 move slots are what make Sigilyph perceivably broken since it has the coverage to hit whatever it wants to. However, I think it's unfair to say "Sigilyph gets to choose its checks and counters" because in these last 2 slots you're giving up Sigilyph's sweeping and/or longevity potential. If you give up CM then you're incapable of breaking SpD walls like Mantine and Sylveon. While these walls aren't immediately threatening, Sigilyph will inevitably be PP stalled. Mantine can Haze Psychic SpD drops and Sylveon can Moonblast SpA drop (0 SpA Moonblast does around 50%). If Sigilyph drops Roost then it has to be extra careful of what it switches into, and won't last throughout a long game. I understand that Sigilyph has the coverage, but you have to sacrifice a very important move.


Cresselia is the main reason I don't think Sigilyph is broken because it beats every relevant set. Sigilyph needs to run Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse to dent Cresselia early on, otherwise Cresselia Calm Minds alongside Sigilyph and 2HKO's Sigilyph at +5. Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse are poor choices because you need to hit Cresselia as it switches in, otherwise it'll eat Heat Wave + Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse and setup and beat Sigilyph unless it gets hax. So yeah, Cresselia is capable of switching into Sigilyph 99% of the time. Cresselia gives defensive teams a way to deal with Sigilyph.

Is Cresselia broken? I think it dictates the metagame and can take advantage of the few ways to beat it. Toxic is the best move for dealing with Moonlight Cresselia, but Cresselia can run Rest or Sub since its bulk lets it not be 3hko'd or have its Sub broken; however, it becomes vulnerable if it runs Rest. Moonlight lets you beat Copperajah and Substitute lets you beat Bronzong. The best way to deal with Cresselia IMO is SD Escavalier, but it's not particularly trendy because of Sigilyph's existence, which leaves Cresselia rather free atm.

Cresselia Set

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight / Substitute

 

[Mariannabelle]

I wanted to follow up on Sigilyph now that I've played and watched more games with it after reading some of the analyses here. I expressed that I was leaning DNB before, and that opinion has solidified.

First, I would like to address Sigilyph's offensive pressure (a la Magic Guard) on defensive teams. From what I have seen, defensive teams have adapted perfectly fine to CM Sigilyph. Frankly, beating Sigilyph is as simple as an adaptive move choice. For example, bulky waters are not setup fodder if they run Haze; defensive Arcanine is not setup fodder if it opts for Flare Blitz over Flamethrower, or Roar over Teleport; and so on and so forth. Defensive teams have not needed and do not need uninhibited Toxics to operate.

Then, there's the issue about Sigilyph's coverage. First, as Davon deserves credit for pointing out, CM sets are giving up something crucial if they intend to pack extra coverage moves in, and while giving up those things may improve certain specific matchups, they also weaken Sigilyph's general matchups. Hardly something to write home about.

Ok, but what about something like Specs Sigilyph? It isn't sacrificing Roost or CM because that was never the point!

Big deal. It's a coverage monster, but that doesn't make it broken. Sure, Sigilyph has Flash Cannon and Dazzling Gleam and what not. That's no more broken than Copperajah running Play Rough for Guzzlord or Stone Edge for Mantine. Goodra running Thunderbolt for Mantine or Iron Tail for Diancie. All of these coverage monsters have balancing aspects, and Sigilyph is no different.

- Power. Unlike what Porygon-Z and Toxtricity used to do, and Tyrantrum still does, Sigilyph doesn't just immediately vaporize the majority of the tier with its STABs. Blankets like DEF Mantine can swap into even a Modest Specs attack from Sigilyph, for example. Even if my drugged up Sigilyph has the optimal move for any specific encounter, it *still* isn't necessarily forcing an immediate switch. Having Heat Wave for Steels doesn't seem so hot when they can stay in and either heavily damage you or outright KO you with Heavy Slam or w/e. Dazzling Gleam for Guzzlord? SPD or AV will eat that up and quack you with a Knock Off. Which brings me to...

-Bulk. It's nothing special. Certainly inferior to comparable coverage monsters like Goodra and Copperajah. Which is a no-no for something that isn't strong enough to quickly dispatch whatever is in front of it. It doesn't have an unusable defensive typing, don't get me wrong, but it's not like anybody is gonna accuse Sigilyph's typing of really bolstering its bulk. This really matters with regard to its...

-Speed. [THE REST OF THIS POST] has just been assuming that Sigilyph is the fastest critter in the tier, but we all know that it isn't. For something with meh bulk, and doesn't guarantee (or even close to guarantee) a KO whenever it gets in, it really isn't tearing up the track here, which sucks for Sigilyph since virtually everything that outspeeds Sigilyph has some option for dispatching it. Knock Shao, Boltbeam Starmie, Stone Edge Flygon, Zoroark, Ninjask, Aerodactyl, Talonflame. You get the idea.

EDIT: I guess I don't need to add this, but, uh... DNB.

 

[Elias PSY]

I never founded sigilyph unhealthy at all.Despite his coverage,magic guard or tinted lens,sigilyph doesn't have way to break through all metagame,stay healthy,revenge kill with only 4 moves.
Using 3 atk+roost? Unable to break fat wish users and cresselia probably the worse set
No roost? Easily chipped and unable to came free on defensives mons such as bronzong,worse revenge kill potential,hard to bring it
Cm+2 attacks ? Doesn't has room for more than 1 coverage move so he is susceptible to be walled or struggling to find setup opportunities.
Specs Tinted lens?Weak to rocks and same drawbacks as no roost
Psycho shift? Need severals cm to do decent damages,easy to abuse with taunt and trick user when flame orb revealed.

Offensives set just seem worse than starmie who hits harder with analytic and doesn't need more coverage than thunderbolt so he can run recover and just overwhelm a lot of teams.
Flame Orb is worse than cresselia who has better bulk,don't rely on psycho shift to setup on copperajah/bronzong and being able to run stored power+moonblast without big drawbacks.

DNB

Speaking of cress

If you think Sigilyph is an issue because of Magic Guard, wait until you meet Sub Cresselia. Basically accomplishes the same thing, and is way more dangerous as a numerical gatekeeper because this thing just does not die. In Sigilyph’s case, you can just straight up attack it to put it down. Cress? Cress is an everything check by sheer bulk, and you can’t play a long game against it because it can and will CM -> Stored Power you. It casually uses ‘weak’ (<- sarcasm) mons like max attack Copper and Arcanine (without Toxic) as setup fodder. Drapion does nicely vs it, although it’s depressing to watch. Seriously, you sometimes wouldn’t even win that matchup by spamming Dark STAB without SD or Taunt. Pangoro is a little speed and one moonblast away from the Land of Aliven’t.

Agreeing on cresselia being a nuisancce.Itemless ones absorb knock offs stupidly easy ,give a pseudo-ghost resist(considering special ghosts aren't that good atm) and doesn't has real counter because of stored power.
Unlike flame orb sigilyph who doesn't has much defensive utility,cresselia forces fast toxic mons or trick (loses to substitute anyway if you don't want get chipped indefinitely.

​

 

[Expulso]

I will be voting Ban on Sigilyph, and I'd like to explain my reasoning in order to hopefully persuade others to consider a ban even if it doesn't feel that overwhelming.

====================​

I'd like to first note that Sigilyph's power and threat level are notably lower than previous NU (council) bans, such as Toxtricity and PorygonZ; however, I don't think that is a fair comparison, since it could still be banworthy even if it isn't blatantly broken enough for a quickban.


Sigilyph's best set is probably LO Psyshock or Psychic / Heat Wave / CM / Roost. As mentioned in this discussion, it has a few extremely solid answers, most notably Cress and Guzzlord. I don't think we can really count options like Haze Mantine and Clear Smog Gastrodon, since Gastro comes very close to being 2HKOd on the switch by either Psychic or Psyshock. Both take ~90% minimum from +1 Psyshock into +0 Psyshock, meaning they pretty much lose if they checked anything else; since they're useful Pokemon with a number of resistances, it isn't practical to keep them at 100% and no status all game just to handle Sigi, so they are probably going to take that chip. Alternatively, Sigi can chip them itself, since a +1 atk does >50%. that's not to mention other sets like Trick+Sticky Barb or Eball that are far more niche but beat the usual counterplay; since they are rare, i'll largely omit them from this discussion.

A few common Pokemon like Pangoro and Drapion are able to succeed once against this Sigi set from full health, but without defensive investment they can't reliably switch in more than once (and with a Spike up or after 2 sr switch-ins, they drop to +1 Heat Wave). Diancie does a little better, taking ~40 from LO Psyshock, but it also doesn't have recovery and Diamond Storm can't OHKO.

It is possible, on paper, to build a team that handles it well by stacking some of these checks. In theory, I could handle it great with CM Cress + scarf or spdef Drapion + a Wish passer.

However, I believe it is broken in this meta due to the limited amount of resources that one can devote to checking it. Other massive threats like Copperajah, Mienshao, Pangoro, Cresselia, and Bewear require their own dedicated checks, so teams are not able to devote enough space to answering Sigilyph while also being able to answer those other threats. This meta's offensive threats are suffocating; it's simply too much to handle them all, and only a few defensive cores are reliable against each of them. This has resulting in me spamming one of those cores (example: pdef Arcanine + Sylveon + Plume to handle Jah + Fighters) and building around it to the detriment of either checking Sigilyph or having enough offensive presence, speed control, hazard control, or some other essential piece of a team.

I'd vote Ban on most of the massive threats right now because I think they all have way too little counterplay, forcing you to use one of a few standard options if you want to beat it. This makes the tier feel really stale to me. Although Sigilyph isn't an auto win button by any means, banning Sigilyph will help create a NU meta where we are more free to be creative in the builder, both when searching for offensive threats to use and when constructing defensive cores.

 

[Jaytop31]

I just finished getting the reqs and while i still don't know what to think about sigilyph, i'd like to talk about a mon i used that feels criminaly underrated.

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch​

Previously NUBL and now untiered for some reason, this mon is a beast in current NU.
It can threaten a lot of top threat such as sylveon, copperajah or mienshao with just it's stab and can beat faster psychic type such as sigilyph, starmie or espeon with priority sucker punch. After a SD, Toxicroak can OHKO pokemon like bewear, celebi (with sucker punch), tyrantrum, dragalge and diancie (the latter 2 after sr damage) just to name a few.
It has also no problem to set-up a SD as it has plenty of opportunity to use it. It's access to dry-skin let him come freely on almost every water type, beating golispod, araquanid, SS blastoise, specs inteleon, vaporeon and non hurricane mantine. It can also use vileplume as a set-up fodder since strenght sap will only lower it's attack by one stage and SD raise it by 2 stages. It's poison typing also let him set-up on fighting type locked on a move like CC or poison jab.
It's main stop are bulky ground type such as mudsale and gastrodon but mudsale lacks recovery meaning you can easily wear it down and for gastrodon you gotta count on the other members of your team.
Of course, Toxicroak face competition as a fighting type with the brokens Mienshao and Pangoro, but Toxicroak fullfill a different role from them, as Pangoro is a pure breaker and Mienshao a cleaner/pivot. Toxicroak is more of a set-up sweeper and it's excellent at doing so. It can also beat both of the fighters, as they usually don't run earthquake. Toxicroak can live at least one attack from band pangoro or lo mienshao and easily kill both with drain punch. It also face competition from bewear as it has more physical bulk due to fluffy, but toxicroak have a water immunity, more speed meaning it can outspeed pokemon like sylveon, isn't annoyed by vileplume with effect spore and also pack sucker punch to kill faster psychic type as i said before.

I didn't thought of saving replay while i was doing reqs but Toxicroak helped me win dozens of game. I'll try to post some more replay later as i only have this one rn:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1259447608-alx2zwyamqi9siyd3mqshq2fihm1ncxpw

In conclusion, from my limited experience in NU, Toxicroak seems incredibly good rn, it has no problem set-up a sd or two and can OHKO almost everything after that. It also has other sets like nasty plot or scarf but i never tried them so i'm not gonna talk about them. It faces competition from the other broken fighting type in NU but that doesn't stop him from being excellent.

 

[Finchinator]

Will not be getting reqs unfort, but I did want to chime in with my thoughts on the suspect for those voting.

Anyway, I feel that Sigilyph is close to a borderline case. I would be in favor of voting ban personally due to how restrictive each individual set can be, but you can argue that no one Sigilyph variant is broken and it would be a very understandable stance to take. The Stored Power variants are likely the best of the bunch; unfortunately, there are some inherent inconsistencies that come alongside it, which are worth noting even if it can snowball out of control easily. There are a handful of semi-reliable answers, especially if it lacks Dazzling Gleam, but overall I find this alone to be restrictive.

Couple this with the LO and Trick sets, which have more direct offensive utility behind them, being solid threats as is, and you get a pretty scary dynamic. I do not find these sets individually broken per se. I think Trick can really open up games and LO not being revenge killable by anything besides...a Scarf Fighting type...on most teams is very problematic, but there are at least other ways to check it defensively.

I think NU lacks the tools defensively and the overall speed offensively to really handle a Pokemon with such a drastically different set mix that has an ability like Magic Guard. If you were able to Toxic Sigilyph to put it on a timer, it'd be a different story. Same could be said if more options outran it. However, this is not the case and I mainly echo the sentiments of Meri about how it is more possible to absolutely dismantle common cores without going too far out of your way with Sigilyph due to these sets. I think the vote will be close, but I support the ban side for now.

 

[pikachu<3]

I'm a new NU player, got reqs yesterday.

I'm not sure where the complaints about the meta being "stale" in the above posts are coming from. I've seen so many playstyles in NU--sun, hail, Webs Offense, Omastar HO (which i used for reqs: https://pokepast.es/8f78d6fa77000e3a ), psy terrain offense, eterrain offense, bulky offense, screens, and balance. It really seems like so many different playstyles are viable in this flourishing tier. The only playstyle I haven't encountered is stall, but no one likes playing against stall so that's OK with me.

As for Sigilith itself, I'm not convinced it's worthy of a ban at all. While the combination of magic guard and tinted lens make it tough to counter defensively, it hasn't kept an abundance of playstyles in NU from flourishing due to a combination of middling speed and mediocre bulk.

I intend on voting DNB. If the tier isn't broken, don't fix it.

 

[shiloh]

The suspect has concluded, and Sigilyph has been banned!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-stage-5-sigilyph.3676597/page-2#post-8723781



However, that is not where the council currently plans to end our public tests. As mentioned before there are a few other mons on our watchlist, and could all be canidates for a suspect test. We mainly want to hear from the public on their thoughts on the following mons.



Bewear has been on our radar for a while, and its not hard to see why. With good STABs, backed up by a great ability and good coverage and attack, Bewear is an offensive powerhouse in the tier. With Fluffy and Swords Dance it can find chances to set up throughout a game, and can even check physical attackers due to its great ability. It can also forgo that for a more immediately threatening CB set, which now has more spammable moves with SS in Close Combat and Darkest Lariat.



The second fighting type on this list, Pangoro is similar to Bewear in how it plays in some ways, but has a much more threatening offensive STAB combination, along with some other key tools. Among these are a recently buffed ability in Scrappy that allows it to be immune to Intimidate, while also allowing it to spam Close Combat from CB sets a lot more freely. It also has priority in Bullet Punch that can be used alongside Iron Fist to target faster revenge killers for the Swords Dance sets. Gunk Shot also allows it to better handle fairies like Sylveon which makes switching into the CB set that much harder.



The third fighting type on this list, Mienshao is quite a bit different from the other two. While it lacks the defensive attributes the other two have, it makes it for it with a much better speed tier and a great ability in Regenerator. This in particular makes Mienshao very hard to chip throughout the game, and allows pivot sets to rack up damage without having to worry about things like hazard chip adding up.



A mon that has been rising up in usage more, and alongside that more calls for it to be tested. This is mainly due to bulky CM sets that become very hard to take down without the correct counterplay. Its bulk with further boosting from CM and items like Kee Berry lets it snowball boosts very quickly and make them deadly with Stored Power. With Moonblast to help with Dark Types like Pangoro since it does not take a lot of its bulk to outspeed and KO it.

These are the main four on our radar at the moment, but if you have anything to add/other mons you would want to be considered feel free to go ahead and post about it.

 

[EonX]

Guess I'll give my 2 cents on the next potential candidates:

I definitely agree with this. Chople SD just runs so many defensive cores and it will almost always get at least one kill against offense, usually more. It can set up in front of CB Pangoro if Chople is still in tact.... let that sink in for a moment. It can even run Choice Band pretty dang effectively and just about nothing defensively checks this outside of Arcanine (needs some Speed investment to outspeed Jolly) and that's about it. Talonflame and Vileplume are reliant on their abilities to neuter it, Fairies don't like switching into Double-Edge, Ghosts and Psychics are creamed by Lariat, and the only Fairy that doesn't mind Double-Edge, Diancie, crumples to +2 Drain Punch after some chip.

I'm gonna be honest; I don't think this is ban worthy right now. It's very difficult to switch into, but there's one key thing that really, really holds it back the more I play. It's Speed tier for a wallbreaker straight up sucks. Outside of Dragalge, every other common (and good) wallbreaker outspeeds Pangoros. While, yes, they're never switching into it, this means that bulkier teams can opt to play the sac game. For those unfamiliar with such a strategy, it essentially involves getting an early lead against Pangoro, and rather than try to switch into it (extremely hard) you just sac something and bring in your own faster wallbreaker to claim a KO back. This means Exploud, Tyrantrum, Starmie, Life Orb Shao (we'll get to you later) and even Sylveon. These are all good, powerful wallbreakers in their own right that may never dream of switching into Panda, but it can never hope to stay in against them and are all also very difficult to switch into in their own right. I don't think Pangoro is bad or not worth using, but it has some issues that I feel hold it back from being "too strong".

Mienshao good. Like, really, really good. It's incredibly easy to splash onto a team and have it perform well game in and game out. Choice Scarf is basically the best speed control in the tier and Life Orb Mienshao is a truly underrated wallbreaker that still brings quite a bit of speed to a team, outspeeding much of the unboosted metagame and ever other wallbreaker aside from Specs Starmie. While it is held back some by Arcanine, Sylveon, and Vileplume being such good, common defensive Pokemon, that's where Regenerator kicks in. Aside from Vileplume and the less common Talonflame, Shao is free to use a Knock Off + U-turn combination against virtually the rest of the tier as no offensive Pokemon can really handle it and slower Pokemon just play right into its hands, all while it chips away and stays healthy itself. While I don't think Mienshao is broken from a "oh no, this has no counters / checks" standpoint, it is still quite centralizing and hard to get away from using no matter the team type you use. Is it to the point of being unhealthy and too centralizing? I'm not sure on that exactly, but definitely worthy of the attention it's gotten from much of the playerbase and maybe suspect worthy.

The only non-Fighting type on the list and it's pretty easy to see why. With Kee or Colbur berry, Cresselia is a chore and a half to break through before it gets out of hand. Kee Berry variants can become unkillable and severe offensive threats after a couple of boosts thanks to Stored Power. The way you'd want to beat or hinder this approach is through Toxic from something like Arcanine or Diancie. You could also attempt to at least remove the Kee Berry boost with Haze Mantine or Clear Smog Gastrodon. However, the problem with this is twofold: first and foremost, neither can realistically use these stat clearing moves AND Toxic on the same set, so they're simply stop gaps to allow physical attackers to have a better chance. The bigger issue is Substitute variants. These I feel are best with Colbur Berry so that it can absorb Knock Off and then become a Poltergeist switch in, granting it more set up openings against Golurk, Dhelmise, and Decidueye. This also grants it much greater defensive utility against Mienshao and still be a pretty big threat to sweep teams too reliant on status to beat it (which is what you want to do with Kee Berry Cress) Regardless of what you go with, there's one thing Cresselia will always do in a game; blanket check threats. Like with any bulky stat booster, Cresselia will get use in every game if only to check opposing threats for its team, which means that even if it can't get that opening to sweep, it'll do something that helps you. While a no Sigiyph meta could open the door to truly good Cresselia answers, namely Escavalier, to do well, a suspect test would definitely not be a bad option considering the utilty Cress can provide even in games it doesn't sweep, much less the game it can get that opening it needs to sweep.

 

[Finchinator]

In my opinion, Mienshao and Bewear are the biggest problems. Pangoro on paper is a massive threat, but it has a lot of things holding it back. Cresselia is a unique case as it is a more defensively oriented Pokemon; I believe it is suspect worthy as well, but perhaps not the most pressing option.



Mienshao is one of the most fragile Pokemon in the SS NU metagame, but it feels like Mienshao never dies despite this. Regenerator and great synergy with common pivots allows for even Life Orb sets to get in repeatedly. The combination of Close Combat and Knock Off alone threaten a vast majority of Pokemon you may encounter. However, U-turn also enables a great deal of timely pivoting, chipping down most would-be checks and counters. I am not sure if Mienshao is over the top as there are a handful of checks, but there are very few counters due to the pace it plays at in a metagame without amazing defensive tools. I believe it is absolutely worthy of a suspect, or else we will be spamming Runerigus for a hot minute.



Bewear has been broken since a little after its release, in my opinion. I am perhaps most confident about this suspect (close between it and Mienshao anyway). The Swords Dance set only really has Cresselia as a truly reliable answer I feel. Physical bulk allows for a great deal of opportunities and the dual STAB + Darkest Lariat is pretty much unwallable. Chople > Silk Scarf btw.



Amazing Pokemon with unmatched breaking potential, but the combination of being on the slower end and on the frailer end leaves it limited. Most teams have 3-4 Pokemon that can outrun it, perhaps even more if it is offense. Pangoro can naturally be minimized and because of this, it is less prominnent on my personal suspect radar. I am glad to engage about it more though as on paper it is pretty crazy.



It never dies. Set-up sets are scary to most team archetypes, nothing really OHKOs it, and there is plenty of utility there. Cresselia is one of the most oppressive Pokemon, even if it is less directly observable than offensive Pokemon who are controversial. I find it harder to pinpoint defensive options as well, but I think it is something we, as a community, must engage in discussion about. Overall, Cresselia is suspect worthy to me due to all it has going for it defensively / utility wise. It is vulnerable to status, but that is about it -- it can threaten Dark types and Bug types are pretty limited in the metagame. There are some strong Ghosts I suppose, but none take the cake a reliable Cresselia checks that are viable for other reasons as is. I firmly believe that if the metagame does not shift to favor more Dark types that can handle Cresselia (such as Swords Dance Drapion) with a potential Bewear/Mienshao suspect, then Cresselia should be looked into promptly.

On top of this, there are some Pokemon I find underrated right now:

is an underrated win condition with the right support. Shell Smash allows for it to be a massive threat to underprepared teams. I strongly advise trying it out on your hyper offense!

is harder to use than some other Stealth Rockers perhaps, especially the Steels, but it is able to defeat the trendy Talonflame and Charizard while being a Stealth Rock setter. This alone gives it some viability, but it also is a bulkier Fairy type, which means it checks things like Goodra and Zoroark, and has a great deal of utility.

ok so there are more checks to STAB Body Slam + Close Combat spam, but this does not mean Tauros is totally invalidated. It is still super fast for NU standards and has great coverage and above average strength. Perhaps it is overshadowed by Bewear and other newer physical attackers, but I love Tauros as a potential cleaner and fast breaker. I am trying to build around it with Spikes now.

Ok so initially I liked Charizard better when I brought it out in NU Snake, but now I feel Talonflame is the better of the two. Even if it has to eat a knock, Talonflame is one of the most annoying Pokemon to play against. It is fast, can spread burn, and even function as a practical defensive pivot. I find it fitting onto many teams right now, too.

PS: is bad

 

[Tony]

I think Pangoro should be suspect tested and subsequently banned next. What sets Pangoro apart from the other Fighting-types on the list is that its attacks have too few drawbacks, especially Knock Off. In the current NU metagame the list of actual Pangoro Knock Off switch-ins stops at Bewear and Sylveon, with Sylveon not only being in range of a Close Combat 2HKO after absorbing a Knock Off, but also being forced into using both Wish and Protect in the turns that follow, which is incredibly easy to abuse with Pangoro's team mates. Additionally, both Bewear and Sylveon handily get OHKOd by Choice Band boosted Close Combat and Gunk Shot, respectively.

Granted, Pangoro is slower and worse defensively than the other good Fighting-types in the tier, but the way Pangoro completely warps counterplay against Fighting-types overall completely overthrows its faults. Unlike Bewear and Mienshao, Pangoro's STAB moves don't have to worry about type immunity due to Scrappy, which in turn means you can't really use Ghost-types as your Fighting-types answer purely and only because of Pangoro. For example, I wanted to try Sableye on one of my teams to be good against all of Bewear, Cresselia and Mienshao in a single slot, however Pangoro completely invalidates it; you can't even Will-O-Wisp it. One of the few good Scrappy Close Combat deterrents in Sigilyph was just (rightfully) removed from the tier, too. Not to mention the fact that while NU is lacking in Knock Off answers, it certainly isn't in Volt Switch, U-turn and Teleport options to get Pangoro into play safely.

If you ban Bewear first then you're pretty much forced into banning Pangoro right after, because Knock Off might as well be a 100% accurate Sheer Cold in a tier without Bewear. Bewear also has a lot more possible counters that could see a rise in usage without Pangoro in the tier, yet can't be used right now because Pangoro's Knock Off sends all of them to the moon. Arcanine, a very underrated Pokemon and good Bewear answer, can't even Intimidate Pangoro now that Scrappy also blocks the attack drop this generation. Bewear, Cresselia and Mienshao are all top tier Pokemon (and that's okay!!!), but if you take a closer look it's only Pangoro that's not leaving the metagame any breathing room at all, in my opinion.