np: LC - Hello Goodbye

[spuds4ever]

I think a good thing to do now would be to discuss how we can counter them well rather than complaining about them before they've even arrived. If we all chip in, we can potentially think up counters for pokemon that don't necessarily deserve to be banned (which is what helpful members in any metagame should do).

For murkrow (who seems to be discussed a lot as broken), I think sub-punchers could do a great job in seriously hurting him (like sub punching munchlax, a very under-rated threat in my experience). The sub will block all nasty statuses and can take a hit. No murkrow likes a sub-punch to the face from something like adamant munchlax (42 defence isn't tanking anything). To be honest, I only see murkrow as a good sweep stopper and revenge-killer, I don't think it will handle the frequent bulky offense of today's metagame very well.

 

[fatty]

how do subpunch sets have anything to do with stopping a murkrow sweep? in fact, most subpunchers (if any are actually used ever) should be fighters, who are raped by krow's bb.

a better counter to murkrow would be a bulky sd pawniard. it can take a bb and sucker punch from the sub sets and deal big damage back with iron head (or brick break when it's roosting). it also easily deals with cm sets because featherdance doesn't work on it.

 

[SkyNet]

I've found the simple combo of defensive Gligar and slowpoke can handle most murkrow sets. Gligar isn't 2hko'd by bb, break krow's subs and toxic it while it roosts up while slowpoke can take on most mix sets with the aid from toxic. Mite is also a nice switch into most krow sets but be wary of heatwave :<

You just have to play safe untill you scout what moves krow is running!

 

[Pedrock]

I didnt understand why unban Murkrow, and not unban Meditite. With Gligar, Missy and Murkrow in the meta, there is no reason to Meditite still being banned...

 

[spuds4ever]

how do subpunch sets have anything to do with stopping a murkrow sweep? in fact, most subpunchers (if any are actually used ever) should be fighters, who are raped by krow's bb.

a better counter to murkrow would be a bulky sd pawniard. it can take a bb and sucker punch from the sub sets and deal big damage back with iron head (or brick break when it's roosting). it also easily deals with cm sets because featherdance doesn't work on it.

When did I say sub-punchers could stop its sweep? It's supposed to attract it in and force it out and keep it out. Pawniard isn't a great option as it's still 2hkoed by BB even from a non attack-boosting nature and isn't fast enough to hit it well before the second one comes so it can't switch in at all. I think scarfed magnemite would be a much better counter. It can come in and thunderbolt it before it can heatwave or it can volt-switch if it has a sub up to something that can take the heatwave. Even with a calm-mind, Murkrow isn't going to like a STABed base 90 attack coming off 20 special attack It also dosen't care about sucker punch and is the best candidate for switching in to a BB

 

[PoJ]

I didnt understand why unban Murkrow, and not unban Meditite. With Gligar, Missy and Murkrow in the meta, there is no reason to Meditite still being banned...

So you're saying that because Meditite's counters were unabanned, that it should be unbanned? Just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it's not broken (especially when you have a Pokemon that has 26 Atk WITHOUT SETTING UP, and decent speed and bulk. Maybe if he was slower and frailer....).

Of course, I never played when Tite or any of these things were around, so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about xD

 

[fatty]

When did I say sub-punchers could stop its sweep? It's supposed to attract it in and force it out and keep it out. Pawniard isn't a great option as it's still 2hkoed by BB even from a non attack-boosting nature and isn't fast enough to hit it well before the second one comes so it can't switch in at all. I think scarfed magnemite would be a much better counter. It can come in and thunderbolt it before it can heatwave or it can volt-switch if it has a sub up to something that can take the heatwave. Even with a calm-mind, Murkrow isn't going to like a STABed base 90 attack coming off 20 special attack It also dosen't care about sucker punch and is the best candidate for switching in to a BB

when reading your post you specifically said we should discuss ways to counter murkrow, so i thought you were implying that subpunchers were a way to counter murkrow. sorry if i misconstrued that, but even if you were talking about luring it in, since when does munchlax (your example) lure in murkrow?

also, idk what calculator you're using but the pawniard set i'm talking about (eviolite sd) is not 2hko'd by murkrow's brave bird...

19 Atk vs 21 Def & 21 HP (120 Base Power): 8 - 9 (38.10% - 42.86%)

and that's with adamant lo krow + only 36 def ev's invested in pawniard, meaning you could make pawniard even more bulky if you wanted a more solid check to murkrow.

 

[Pedrock]

So you're saying that because Meditite's counters were unabanned, that it should be unbanned? Just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it's not broken (especially when you have a Pokemon that has 26 Atk WITHOUT SETTING UP, and decent speed and bulk. Maybe if he was slower and frailer....).

Of course, I never played when Tite or any of these things were around, so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about xD

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I know that even a pokemon with counters can be broken, but I dont know if this is the case...

 

[spuds4ever]

when reading your post you specifically said we should discuss ways to counter murkrow, so i thought you were implying that subpunchers were a way to counter murkrow. sorry if i misconstrued that, but even if you were talking about luring it in, since when does munchlax (your example) lure in murkrow?

also, idk what calculator you're using but the pawniard set i'm talking about (eviolite sd) is not 2hko'd by murkrow's brave bird...



and that's with adamant lo krow + only 36 def ev's invested in pawniard, meaning you could make pawniard even more bulky if you wanted a more solid check to murkrow.

Perhaps the first wasn't clear and I probably should have been. In munchlax's case though, luring in doesn't really work. Anyway, Pawniard could work, but it has to watch out for heatwave like all steel types and unfortunately, it has no fail-safe like magnemite who can volt-switch to a safer option, protect won't work as you may just give murkrow another free substitute. Pawniard, can check, but if it's carrying heatwave, you're in for it.

 

[fatty]

and the same goes for magnemite lol. anyone with half a brain knows that if you have a magnemite you're going to probably be switching it into krow. pawniard and mite are both good checks to the more common sub roost and cm sets, but mixed sets with heat wave can prove troublesome. sounds like a fine statement!

 

[SkyNet]

So you're saying that because Meditite's counters were unabanned, that it should be unbanned? Just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean it's not broken (especially when you have a Pokemon that has 26 Atk WITHOUT SETTING UP, and decent speed and bulk. Maybe if he was slower and frailer....).

Of course, I never played when Tite or any of these things were around, so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about xD

To be honest in a metagame like Little Cup, if a pokemon does have solid counters its very unlikely to be 'broken'. Meditite doesn't have any true counters but can be played around with checks as it suffers with 4 moveslot syndrome!

 

[Methmite]

in a meta where most stats are litterally 3 points apart; I dont care what you're swithcing into a 26 attack stat: its taking a hit. Thats what makes Meditite so broken. Its basically a garunteed kill when it shows up.

Ok so these are my intial thoughts on the unbanning: Why shouldnt I run them again?

Lets take Gligar for example. Its a fast, its bulky, and it's strong. It gets access to So many support moves from Roost to Stealth Rocks to Baton Passing Swords Dance and Rock Polishes. If im looking for a rocker, I have a choice between some dedicated rockers like Dwebble or Bronzor, or I could get all the defensive presence Bronzor has, with the addition of recovery, as well as the speed and power of dwebble. For the sake of my point, we decided that Spikes were *really* worth it for my team and I opt for a double hazard Dwebble. Now I need something to take advantage of the hazards to sweep. Gligar can do that with a SD set, hitting the magic 19 speed, as well as an *insane* 17 attack along with 17/ 13 *UNIVNESTED* defenses. Put an eviolite on that, and now I have 25/19 defenses. That's litterally slowpoke high. with no investments. At all. oh, and I have 19 speed and 34 attack after one boost and near perfect coverage in the form of QuakeEdge, one half which I benefit from STAB.

Murkrow... I mean. Prankster is enough said. Anything you can think of that thing can do. Hey Mixed sweeper? lets do it. Priority roosts with 19 speed again. It outspeeds the world on the recovery. Already have a sweeper? here run the bitchiest set known to man: FeatherDance CM. It out speeds the world, has priority healing, increases its bulks (on priority) and still has room to run HP dark or HP Flying or whatever. People are saying the Mixed sweeper set is kited by Steels. I'm running Roost/SuckerPunch/BraveBird/HP[fire] with a LO. not much can stop it, once its on the field. I've also been playing around with a trapper set to deal with Misdreavus.


Long story short: The mons can each be countered. Each set has its weaknesses and I'm not trying to say they don't. They're definitely something I thnik the meta can conform around, and it'll be interesting to see how people scout out sets so they can counter it directly. I would like some one to show me a reason to not run them on a team, though and I defintely feel like theirs going to be a lot more "Your team cannot be prepared for all of my sets at once without being shit fuck weak to the rest of my team" matches.

I'd also like to point out that everyone advocating the unbanning of these mons have yet to put out a way to really stop them cold reliably. I'm going to go ahead and stay neutral on the topic until this develops a bit more; but those are my observations so far.

 

[PoJ]

To be honest in a metagame like Little Cup, if a pokemon does have solid counters its very unlikely to be 'broken'. Meditite doesn't have any true counters but can be played around with checks as it suffers with 4 moveslot syndrome!

I guess that's why Scraggy was never banned (not that it deserved to be banned, it's not really not broken), but what Methimite said is exactly what I'm talking about. The fact that Meditite's attack stat is 26 without even setting up is crazy. I mean, if Tite was slower and frailer that really wouldn't be a problem, but 16 speed is high enough to out pace a lot of things and eviolite boosts his decent defenses. He even has a priority move, although a weak one, it still deals a lot to frail fast things. And to top it all off, he gets Drain Punch which hits hard and heals.

 

[Ray Jay]

Please don't use this thread to advocate what you think should be unbanned. Intelligently discuss the viability of the Pokemon that are now in the metagame.

 

[CBManBearPig]

I think that Fighting-types will have a sharp decline, as all three of the recently unbanned pokemon give them headaches, with the exception of Scraggy, who will benefit from the drop of other Fighting-types. It is also an excellent counter to Misdreavus. Speaking of Scraggy, I believe that Scraggy will have to run Ice Punch over one of its Fighting moves to deal with Gligar.

I'd say that Gligar would be a good check for CM / Feather Dance Murkrow, due to Hyper Cutter. It would just need some sort of attacking move other than Earthquake like Stone Edge or Rock Slide to beat it though.

 

[Methmite]

I run Stone Edge Eq Roost Swords Dance as a little throw back to my Gliscor days in OU. With eviloite the thing is bulky as shit, and SD lets it break through anything not named Gliscor / Bronzor.

 

[Ray Jay]

I think that Fighting-types will have a sharp decline, as all three of the recently unbanned pokemon give them headaches, with the exception of Scraggy, who will benefit from the drop of other Fighting-types. It is also an excellent counter to Misdreavus. Speaking of Scraggy, I believe that Scraggy will have to run Ice Punch over one of its Fighting moves to deal with Gligar.

I'd say that Gligar would be a good check for CM / Feather Dance Murkrow, due to Hyper Cutter. It would just need some sort of attacking move other than Earthquake like Stone Edge or Rock Slide to beat it though.

If the meta about a year ago was of any indication, Scraggy should be a huge force considering it was even voted on at one point. The problem arises when we realize that we've had a metagame centered around Scraggy and found that it's not without checks, so expect to see some shifting around of stuff like Mienfoo while the metagame calms down. Mienfoo will still be vital in handling Scraggy (and it's also notable Murkrow can't switch into it), but yeah, Gligar and Misdreavus mess with it hard. Also, Scraggy should always run Ice Punch in that 4th slot nowadays; and even if Gligar is a more defensive set, it is notable it can't OHKO with something like Aerial Ace.

I run Stone Edge Eq Roost Swords Dance as a little throw back to my Gliscor days in OU. With eviloite the thing is bulky as shit, and SD lets it break through anything not named Gliscor / Bronzor.

Eviolite is pretty ridiculous, and it's no surprise Gligar is seeing tons of usage (apparently more than Misdreavus in my experience). The real problem set I've run into is AcroBat, which basically wrecks the old meta. In my opinion, some well designed older teams can handle something like CM FeatherDance Murkrow due to being bulkier and having Toxic on like 3 mons, but Acrobatics Gligar has a set of checks and counters that are a far cry from anything the old meta had. It's not broken, however; really, faster Pokemon / Speed Ties (Elekid, Misdreavus, Staryu, Abra) and Choice Scarf Pokemon (Misdreavus, Chinchou, Shellder) certainly keep it in check, meaning I predict a tendency for teams to be slightly more offensive.

 

[spuds4ever]

Adding on to what Ray said, I think scraggy will rise in usage seeing it has moves that can hit the big four for super effective damage. Even murkrow after feather-dancing a +1 scraggy still won't like an ice punch to the face and gligar's in the same boat. Carvanha will probably not dare to switch in but if it does, a clever player will DD on the protect and misdreavus is out-sped and OHKOed with crunch. Mienfoo will definetely drop now with gligar coming to dominance as it lacks a decent boosting move to break the high defenses of gligar and missy and has to run HP ice if it wants to beat the bat.

 

[fatty]

carvanha has not been unbanned

 

[Vix]

To be honest I never really cared about murkrow and his placement. He can be worked around if you have a decent s.attacker and you know what your doing.

Yeah Gligar is annoying and makes chinchou far harder to use, but almost any ice move OHKO's him as well. Besides did you really ever HAVE a team without some ice coverage when he was banned?

Missy however is another story, All it is, is gastly without the poison type, and one less sp. attack point for a truckload defense so you can actually take a few hits rather than die because your made of wet cardboard! The poison STAB does give gastly a slightly more powerful attack to use alongside of S ball but, it is an almost negligible difference in power compared to the amount of bulk you have to give up to USE gastly! (that's forgetting the fact that poison is a horrid attack type as well!)

Needless to say, I need a good missy counter for the (hopefully)short time she's here!
(really I need one bad)

 

[prem]

Honestly to counter missy Stunky is probably your best answer. Houndour and other dark types could possibly work (scraggy can take a hp fighting and crunch for probably a OHKO but not always). other answers to missy are like Shadow Claw Drilbur, Acrobat Gligar can win the speed tie and OHKO, while other missys are good checks.

tl;dr beat missy with lots of checks that are probably dark typed

 

[spuds4ever]

I'd say misdreavus is currently the toughest to counter, especially nasty plot sets. With an eviolite and some HP invested, misdreavus will survive a sucker punch and while it won't OHKO with a +2 shadow ball, if it runs shadow sneak, you're dead, or if it runs will-o-wisp, you're also dead. She's a very tricky pokemon to get around and usually the only way is to sacrifice something and weaken her to KO range by shuffling around with scarfed u-turners and volt-switchers.

 

[CBManBearPig]

I use Houndour to counter Misdreavus because most of its other counters, unlike Houndour, are completely crippled by the Sub Will-O-Wisp set.

 

[D4RR3N]

I use Houndour to counter Misdreavus because most of its other counters, unlike Houndour, are completely crippled by the Sub Will-O-Wisp set.

sub hp fighting sets are going to fuck up houndour badly tho >.<

 

[Methmite]

I've been running a Choice Scarf set on Misdreavus, and I'm constantly just like "I use two moves..." Those begin Shadow Ball and HP fighting. I also have Will-o-wisp to cripple switch ins like Stunky and Dark pulse for the sake of it.

Anyways the point of the post is that unless you *really* need a revenge killer, there's no real reason *not* to run missy with a sub +3 or sub+2 set.