np: LC – Freebird

[prem]

Roar on hippo didn't really solve much because gligar would just come back later. It also took shitloads from acro at +2

 

[Ray Jay]

Just would like to make a small update and say that the LC ladder has been updated if you weren't aware!

 

[Rowan]

wasn't it already the most consistent counter?

Well, yes but normally if you had Croagunk on team, you wouldn't be too worried about Scraggy whilst now you still would be, due to zen headbutt usage increasing.

 

[comatthew6]

This means that no one will run Bronzor anymore, right? Nice. Time to bring back Drilbur!

 

[Chieliee]

...which rapes my entire team


But yes, strangely enough, with the banning of Gligar, Sand teams will be more common.

Saying this again, DD Axew is just fantastic

 

[Ray Jay]

So the meta's started to settle down a bit, and I think there's one thing that's frankly everywhere:

Chinchou
name: RestTalk
move 1: Scald
move 2: Heal Bell / Discharge / Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Eviolite
ability: Volt Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 76 HP / 132 Def / 228 SpD / 60 Spe

Honestly people can't seem to get enough of this set. I really like it myself as well; it just synergizes so well with tons of teammates due to its typing and while its stats aren't "outstanding" it definitely is the premier special wall atm. But yeah, it's a beast, Scald is such an amazing move this meta especially because if you don't have a cleric you will probably lose if you get an untimely burn.

We discussed this set and others on the smogcast, but I'm more curious, what Pokemon / cores have you been using?

On the subject of Murkrow and Misdreavus, I actually don't even think either should be suspects for a while. Misdreavus has plenty of checks at the moment, and is greatly hindered by a lack of reliable recovery. Murkrow seemed really annoying with Life Orb at first, but checks have most definitely arisen to handle that, such as the Chinchou set above. Again, what do you guys think?

 

[prem]

after about of week of playing this meta and making horrible horrible teams, im finally starting to get a feel for this meta. its actually really fun because there are a significantly less amount of speed ties and many of the most prominent teams are balanced teams, or even stall/defensive teams.

on the topic of Murkrow i have to say its scarf set is by far the most threatening set to me. seeing as i normally run offense and attempt to run balanced being able to outspeed it with a scarf mon or +1 scraggy is normalyl how i beat murkrow. scarf literally stops me from doing that and is forcing me to run dedicated checks like restalk chinchou (who while is a boss doesnt fit my playstyle well) and porygon, who is amazing. misdreavus is practically a nonissue and the moment and if it becomes an issue and you guys want to ban it. i swear you guys better be saying that after trying stunky.

anyway 2 things that ive been using in this meta as the revolutionary i am are Life Orb Scraggy and the boss TEDDIURSA

while life orb scraggy sounds like a horrible idea, sacrificing all of that bulk, the power boost is fucking amazing. i wasnt running ddance because i was trying to use a shitty set but it kills things extremely well. once you get a ddance in the mix its fucking unstoppable, being able to ohko mienfoo 69% of the time assuming its at full health (which it shouldnt be).

TEDDIURSA however is a complete motherfucking boss. go make a defensive core, cool story bro teddiursa is gonna kill it. i set up a sd nearly every game and unless they have a croagunk or murkrow, you have nearly 3 kills guaranteed. +2 facade is unstoppable, and with cc and crunch as coverage, nothing besides bronzor is dodging that OHKO. with quick feet you can just switch in on a misdreavus spamming shadow ball get your boost and either kill it or set up, because it lives the hp fighting with enough to get off another hit or two after the misdreavus dies the next turn. it can literally set up on practically any special attack like shroomish, chinchou, porygon (fucking sucks), staryu, lileep. screw defensive cores teddiursa is too strongth for them.

also look how adorable it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 cutemons for life nigga.

 

[Furai]

Anyway, with Gligar disappearance from the tier, I have been trying to revive the true terrorist of LC in the past metagame (pre-Murkrow and Misdreavus):

DRATINI.​

bitch please, it's much cuter than your Teddiursa, gtfo prem.

This is what I use:

Dratini (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 236 Atk / 40 SAtk / 36 SDef / 196 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Dragon Dance
- ExtremeSpeed
- Outrage
- Fire Blast

+2 priority is just cool to fuck these Murkrows and their Sucker Punches. It hurts like a truck as well, but my team is not suitable for me as I believe. It's waaaaaaay to offensive to my taste. Many of you have battled me, and the main point was to use SubRoost Murkrow to weaken off Bronzor, allowing Dratini to make an Outrageous sweep with a few boosts under its belt. Dwebble lead is also p great, hehe.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Every one is probally sikc of seing half my posts involve a corphish in some way but screw you all! my favourite Dragon Dancer and pokemon in the teir

Corphish @Evolite
Ability: Adaptability
Nature: Jolly
Evs: 172 Hp/ 76 Def/ 156 Sp Def/ 76 Spe
Moves:
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Brick Break
Crunch

to maximize his effectivness i am using him on a rain team at +2 this thing can wreck teams late game and is only walled by Croagunk i like using Crunch on the ghosts that think there can switch in and will-o-wisp. Waterfall in rain at +2 can OHKO Max Hp and Defense Duskull very easily if Stealth Rocks are up! and Brick Break is ther For Ferroseed. i would suggestpartnering him up with a Chinchou espiecally on rain teams as Chinchou can take Electric type attacks and Fire back with 100% accurate Thunder or Boosted Hyrdo Pump in rain :D

 

[Chieliee]

Bronzor: Counters/checks Axew and Omanyte
Ferroseed: Counters Axew and Omanyte
Porygon: Counters/checks Axew and Omanyte
Croagunk: Counters Omanyte

Nasty Plot Misdreavus: Lures in Bronzor, Ferroseed Porygon and Croagunk, and then proceeds to kill/severely weaken them

i know misdreavus can't kill them all in one game, but it's a great way to lure omanyte and axew's counters

I used to run this combo without axew. Then for some random reason i decided to try out dd axew and it fits really well in the combo

i'm also using magnemite as a failsafe

 

[Heysup]

Misdreavus does not lure in Bronzor or Croagunk by any means. Croagunk actually lures in Misdreavus.

 

[danilo]

I can attest to the power of life orb scraggy, it is nuts. Tirtouga is rlly good at the moment with all the Murkrow running around, not to mention ponyta

 

[(makeup)]

I've actually seen LO Scraggy around a bit (prem.....) and it seems really good on paper. being able to outspeed and OHKO Eviolite Mienfoo pretty much guarantees a win unless your opponent runs Croagunk. I think the only downside to Life Orb is it requires Drain Punch to stay alive, so there is no way to kill Croagunk and Misdreavus on the same set (unless you want to lose to Mienfoo but that's exactly what you use Life Orb to avoid).

 

[PoJ]

I love love love using RestTalk CM Missy in this! I think you guys are starting to realize that it is pretty great, it's just so easy to find something to set up on. Getting to +6 is pretty easy because you can boost while you're asleep and then Missy is almost unstoppable o.o

However, getting rid of Porygon, Murkrow, Scraggy, and Stunky can be challenging. Once they're gone though, Missy will have a super easy time setting up.

LO DD Scraggy is actually really cool. You just need to set up on something weak enough. After that Idk what can survive an attack :o Croagunk has priority to beat you but it's not really common. I think a set of DD/Drain Punch/HJK/Crunch sounds good. HJK is what OHKOs Mienfoo, right? I don't see any reason to run ZHB on an LO Scraggy set since Croagunk will probably be able to 2HKO with Fake Out + Vacuum Wave, or at least come close.

Prem, you make me want to try Teddiursa again! Teddiursa + SubPass Mienfoo sounds cool :o Also, Furai, Teddiursa is so much cuter than Dratini.

Knock Off Mienfoo + Sweeper is great. It just makes things like Porygon and RestTalk Chinchou so much easier to KO, making it easier for, say, NP Missy or SS Omanyte to sweep.

That's what I've found effective in this metagame so far... I've been meaning to try BP but I heard it's hard to pull off. I'm going to build a team now. :p

 

[Ray Jay]

This is what I use:

Dratini (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 236 Atk / 40 SAtk / 36 SDef / 196 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Dragon Dance
- ExtremeSpeed
- Outrage
- Fire Blast

Not sure if you care, but I messed around with Specs (I know specs lol) and Life Orb Dratini with a set of Fire Blast / Draco Metoer / Filler / ExtremeSpeed and it just finds so many opportunities to deal damage. I think the big reason for this is that Dratini is underprepared for due to its 2 move coverage + priority, and so people just don't know what to do if they see it (especially since they might fear a Fire Blast and not switch in Bronzor etc).

I've actually seen LO Scraggy around a bit (prem.....) and it seems really good on paper. being able to outspeed and OHKO Eviolite Mienfoo pretty much guarantees a win unless your opponent runs Croagunk. I think the only downside to Life Orb is it requires Drain Punch to stay alive, so there is no way to kill Croagunk and Misdreavus on the same set (unless you want to lose to Mienfoo but that's exactly what you use Life Orb to avoid).

When I battled prem, it was extremely annoying as suddenly Mienfoo isn't the greatest check and things can get really dicey really quickly. Obviously the sacrifice in bulk is noticeable, but it's definitely a worthwhile lure that I'd classify as a level above merely a "gimmick"--of course, it was popularized by prem so how good can it really be ;)

 

[prem]

obviously my LO scraggy is a god. i mean adamant lo scraggy +1 hjk never fails to ohko mienfoo lol.

anyway im going to say, while eviolite is fucking amazing, you guys need to hop off of it some. Life Orb is a really cool item on a lot of mons like scraggy, mienfoo, staryu, murkrow, misdreavus. i understand the eviolite bulk is useful but hoenstly when you want to kill shit, use life orb. lo mienfoo hits incredibly hard with hjk and it has regen so its health isnt going down much. while it might not be the best scraggy counter anymore ive found that its so much easier to just revenge scraggy than worry about taking a hit (mostly because i always prepare for hjk...). lo staryu is fucking amazing, 3hkoing chinchou, 2hkoing porygon, 2hkoing nearly everything that doesnt resist its stab. being able to do 85% to mienfoo is really useful when you have sr and spikes down.

while i honestly hate this motherfucker so badly, drilbur really should be used a lot more. its really fucking amazing in this meta, being able to outspeed everything and hit fucking hard. bronzor is not really a threat in this meta and if it is then use something like scraggy and it will be a nonissue. it messes up speed tiers really badly and stops so many of my teddiurs and scraggy sweeps (im honestly telling you guys how to beat me lol)

when using abra go use charge beam. its fucking great at luring krow and allowing abra to sweep kinda.

what is your guy's favorite 4th move on mixkrow. while the moveset is pretty much set with Heat Wave / Sucker Punch / (brave bird/drill peck), the last move has always been odd. you can run things like dark pulse, the second flying move, hp grass, or even icy wind.

 

[spuds4ever]

Agreeing with Prem that LO is a great item.

Just gonna come out and say that cacnea is a complete MONSTER now. If you can predict at all with sucker punch, cacnea's check list wittles down to something like murkrow and croagunk and to an extent bulky mienfoo (and perhaps the odd houndour). It just smashes so freaking much and can still set up on a reasonable amount of stuff like staryu, ferroseed, hippopotas etc..

Drilbur, while frowned upon, is really great this metagame as prem said. I wouldn't say he's as good a sweeper as he is a revenge killer, though, as he struggles to switch in safely and doesn't hit hard enough without a life orb and still dies to priority in every form if he does finally manage to set up. But when used as a revenge-killer, nearly nothing escapes his twin claws of mass destruction.

 

[Rowan]

Just gonna come out and say that cacnea is a complete MONSTER now. If you can predict at all with sucker punch, cacnea's check list wittles down to something like murkrow and croagunk and to an extent bulky mienfoo (and perhaps the odd houndour). It just smashes so freaking much and can still set up on a reasonable amount of stuff like staryu, ferroseed, hippopotas etc..

I really like Cacnea. It's a shame about it's water absorb illegality issues, otherwise it could switch into Chinchou without even worrying about a burn from scald. If you do choose water absorb, then you'll have to sacrifice focus punch, drain punch and bullet seed, which leaves it with sucker punch and seed bomb for attacks.

I can also confirm Prem's comment about LO Staryu. I've been shocked by how hard it actually hits, and versions with HP Fire are very annoying as I always think I can switch Ferroseed in easily.

I'd say Murkrow's probably the most threatening poke this gen, purely because it can hit hard straight away with 19 speed and many pokes are scared of switching in because it has really good coverage. It's far from broken though as stealth rock, life orb and brave bird kill it off really quickly.
For Murkrow's fourth move, I'd say the best is probably HP Grass or Drill Peck (Brave Bird, if you're already running Drill Peck). Dark Pulse is only useful for the odd slowpoke. I suppose it could be used to avoid burn damage from Missy, but is generally inferior, whilst HP Grass hits Omanyte or Tirtouga who can generally set up on Murkrow (sturdy Tirtouga is still annoying though, but sucker punch can deal with it.) Drill Peck is good for pokes that are easy to KO without having to suffer recoil. Also roost could be used but it's generally too frail and not worth it.

 

[PoJ]

I really like Cacnea. It's a shame about it's water absorb illegality issues, otherwise it could switch into Chinchou without even worrying about a burn from scald. If you do choose water absorb, then you'll have to sacrifice focus punch, drain punch and bullet seed, which leaves it with sucker punch and seed bomb for attacks.

Cacnea does seem like an interesting Pokemon to use in this metagame. I especially like the fact the it's a great check to RestTalk Chinchou since it's so common now, and, like you said, if you go with Water Absorb then Cacnea basically hard counters RT Chinchou. But losing Drain Punch and Focus Punch really sucks :(

I'm not sure if it's just on PS!, but Abra is really good. It's especially great late game if you get rid of any priority users or scarfers or Murkrow (and Vullaby but I haven't seen that in a while). It's just so powerful and fast, and the combination of Focus Sash and Magic Guard is invaluable on a Pokemon as frail as Abra. I also really love using Koffing to beat Drilbur. Switch in on an EQ, or even an SD and then just go from there. If they SDd then you can easily survive a Rock Slide and Clear Smog to get rid of the boost. Then if Drilbur is stupid enough to stay in, WoW it and its sweep is basically over. Kind of similar situation with Scraggy, but Crunch does quite a lot even with no boosts (and WoW is useless sometimes because of Shed Skin).

 

[danilo]

Bulky Snover is the business. It checks the Water-types in this meta in addition to the Grass-types like Shroomish that check the Water-types. Really a great set right now.

 

[Ray Jay]

Just gonna come out and say that cacnea is a complete MONSTER now. If you can predict at all with sucker punch, cacnea's check list wittles down to something like murkrow and croagunk and to an extent bulky mienfoo (and perhaps the odd houndour). It just smashes so freaking much and can still set up on a reasonable amount of stuff like staryu, ferroseed, hippopotas etc..

Drilbur, while frowned upon, is really great this metagame as prem said. I wouldn't say he's as good a sweeper as he is a revenge killer, though, as he struggles to switch in safely and doesn't hit hard enough without a life orb and still dies to priority in every form if he does finally manage to set up. But when used as a revenge-killer, nearly nothing escapes his twin claws of mass destruction.

Your points here coincide more than you might think they do. Frankly, sand teams simply love something that can take water-types, and Cacnea undeniably does this to a fantastic extent. In all honesty, I think the stigma possessed by the people who played two metagames or so is gone; I haven't had to run Bronzor to deal with Drilbur yet. It's at a good usage right now, one where it is merited enough to be used (but not always the greatest Poke to use, since opposing Snover smashes sand so hard and Snover's on the rise). It also has enough variation in sets to make it somewhat a surprise to deal with every time; I wouldn't deem it broken though (I've been flaunting max Defense Mienfoo, which is typically a pretty good check to Swords Danceless versions, while most teams shouldn't let it get an SD anyways).

I'd say Murkrow's probably the most threatening poke this gen, purely because it can hit hard straight away with 19 speed and many pokes are scared of switching in because it has really good coverage. It's far from broken though as stealth rock, life orb and brave bird kill it off really quickly.

Murkrow's definitely a big threat right now, and I would agree that HP Grass in slot 4 is just ridiculously fun. I think it does have a pretty broad set of counters, however, including Chinchou (LO Brave Bird and HP Grass's damage outputs are typically comparable), Aron (uncommon but what are you going to do to it), along with some checks, such as defensive Staryu. Definitely a fun Pokemon I've been using lately, and if you can keep up hazards and get rid of Staryu, then things get even more fun.

Speaking of the ubiquity of Staryu and Chinchou, I've had some fun with Agility Chinchou since it takes advantage of bulky Water-types so well. With HP Fire it's a monster late game, with HP Grass it's basically the perfect Staryu / Chinchou core solution.

I'm not sure if it's just on PS!, but Abra is really good

I've been seeing more of Abra lately, especially with Charge Beam which makes it, as prem said, essentially the best Murkrow lure. I remember something similar happened a few metas ago, however, where people will simply afraid to use Abra; in reality, it's a pretty safe Pokemon, especially with Magic Guard ensuring that you could get a late game revenge kill against a set up sweeper if need be as you essentially live any attack.

In terms of other discussion, I'd like more on Scraggy. How many counters per team are you seeing? Which counters are you using? What spreads on Mienfoo do you find best? Is Croagunk even worth it anymore?

 

[Rowan]

In terms of other discussion, I'd like more on Scraggy. How many counters per team are you seeing? Which counters are you using? What spreads on Mienfoo do you find best? Is Croagunk even worth it anymore?

Lots of people are running HJK/Drain Punch/Crunch so Croagunk still comes in handy a lot of the time. However I normally would use about 2 Scraggy counters. Normally I'd run something like Bulkyfoo/Gunk/Shelmet/Timburr and then if something goes wrong or Scraggy has the wrong coverage move have a scarf Krow or Mienfoo in reserve. Scarf Mienfoo is probably my favourite atm, to put the momentum back on your side with U-turn and even late game sweeping with HJK.
Timburr is also underrated this meta, it's a small bit bulkier than Mienfoo so can serve has a good Scraggy counter-although Mienfoo does have regenerator which kinda makes up for the bulk. It has bulk up and drain punch to keep it going and you can't even toxic or burn it due to guts. The combination of Drain Punch, then Mach Punch KO's non-eviolite Krow, which is useful if you hit it on the switch in. A +1 Payback OHKO's Missy whilst a Misdreavus does max 54% with Shadow Ball. Basically it's a cool boosting tank thing that is surprisingly hard to stop at +1.

 

[spuds4ever]

Yup, you got that right ray, which is one of the things that makes cacnea so valuable.

I haven't bumped into murkrow much (mostly lots of new players on the ladder I've been finding) but I'm currently running lileep with heavy defense investment, HP rock, and toxic to beat it. My plan will basically be, recover stall it or break its subs with HP rock and then toxic it when it roosts. Life orb still gets around it but timburr can revenge kill it with mach punch should I not be able to stall it out.

As you can guess, I'm using timburr to counter scraggy and he does a good job, often ending with quite a lot of health courtesy of drain punch. He can't survive an adamant +1 life orb zen headbutt, though, but then drilbur can safely revenge kill.

Scarfoo has been godly for me in the past, being bulkier than many people would think and easily picking up momentum and regaining off HP as well as cleaning up well too. Trying to avoid using mienfoo now, though, due to overuse.

Edit: Ouch, brave bird hurts like anything. Switching to aron until someone figures out some more solid murkrow counters.

 

[macle]

Seems like everyone and their mom is using sand teams. How lame.

 

[spuds4ever]

While I generally like to be anti-metagame, I don't mind sand that much as a play-style (even though I shamelessly use drilbur). It's a good playstyle and still requires skill imo and if you're not running sand, you need to pack checks to it, just like in any tier which has it. Just my 2 cents though.

It would be cool to see a bit more hail though (pun not intended). Will probably be my next experiment after I'm happy with my sand peak.