np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

[DR809]

I started using a modest life orb set for Latias and it hasn't been working well its set is

78HP, 180 Spd., 252 Sp. Atk
Dragon Pulse, Grass Knot, HP Fighting, Roost

It can deals with T-tars but scizor is a problem. You can go for HP Fire but I'm not sure Grass Knot will be able to OHKO T-tar but I can do damage calcs for it. What we need is a set that can function well in OU because the current sets are more viable towards uber standards. Where as those may not work in OU.

Got the Calcs. Grass Knot does (with Life Orb) 57.66% - 68.05% to CB T-Tar.

 

[RaikouLover]

Here to post my awesome Latias set because I haven't made a good team to use it on. However, this is one of the most creative sets you'll find, and its quite fun to use:

Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP/8 Def/96 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Psycho Shift
- Recover
---

So, I thought of this crap last nite... when I was eager to test Latias. Base 110 Special Attack is phenomenal, especially when you have a nice base 130 Special Defense to switch in on... Then I looked at the potency of Life Orb Milotic and realized something cool... Latias can switch in on Heatran just as easy thanks to the same Special Defense, but also has higher speed, higher special attack and an amazingly bloated base power STAB attack. So why use this over the Calm Mind sweeper? This baby is a 100% tank. Things will take a hurting switching in no doubt, and it can act as a status absorber of some sort with Psycho Shift. Need something to switch into Brawley's annoying Thunderwaving Zapdos? Heres your gal!

So what do the EVs do? Well your stats look like this:

339 HP / 176 Atk / 218 Def / 280 Spe / 350 SpA / 296 SpD

Now, if you want, you can always add more speed. I just figure since I'm not sweeping I don't need as much speed, since I liked the added defense the HP is giving me. I figure its best not to challenge Salamence since A) they won't switch in anyway and B) in order to be positive you outspeed them you need to be Timid anyway and I'd rather not sacrifce all the power. So lets take a look at what kind of punishment this gal gives out!

First, the most important fucker of all... Tyranitar:

Surf vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 41-49%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Tyranitar: 45-53%

So basically, I usually Surf on turn 1, meaning that a Max HP Tyranitar has to hope I'm rolling minimum damage to avoid being killed by this combo. So what about Careful Tar? Well, I actually haven't seen to many of those yet since standard Tar is preying on Latias so easily. But in the event I do challenge Careful Tar I'll go for the 3HKO, since a CB Pursuit from 40 Atk Tar will do 39-46% if I stay in, meaning I have a chance to go down fighting.

So what about fucker #2... Scizor. Hmmm, lets take a look:

Again, Surf on your first turn and take a look:

Surf vs. Max HP Scizor: 46-55% (100% 2HKO w/ SR)
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Scizor: 51-60%

So what kind of things do you whomp with Draco Meteor? Easy, that annoying Zapdos your switching in on:

Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Zapdos: 82-97%

So I encourage all of you to try my fine gal... and happy Tar and Scizor hunting!

 

[Elevator Music]

Haha I battled RL on an alt that was testing Slowbro (long story, but it's really not that bad), and that set performed fantastic against me, since my first step against Latias on most of my teams is to Paralyze it.


Last night the comments on how the test is 'biased because it highlights Latias' really struck a chord with me. In response to that, today I used teams that were made in between Shaymin-s's absense and Latias's arrival, and I was surprised at the results. One of my teams (ScarfUxie/Blissey/SDHera/Thunder Wave Slowbro/Machamp/Zapdos, for those of you who may be thinking that all my teams just love to run Scizor/Tyranitar/blah), which I really hadn't expected to be very good at all, performed way above expectations.

I'd been thinking it'd do a lot worse, not being prepared for the meta (It really doesn't even have anything that effective against Latias, bar Megahorn when Latias is paralyzed). Nonetheless, I encourage everyone to try this, because then you can more accurately form your own opinions about just how much Latias affects the metagame. EDIT- though of course after you do so you should make sure to actually test Latias... >_>

 

[FastHippo]

I don't mean to crap all over the process, but a lot of posts are revealing the big problem with the way the Suspect Test system is set up. The Suspect Test ladder stats are going to be ridiculously weighted towards the counters to Latias for two reasons. The first is, of course, that they're good. There's no saying that Scizor, Metagross, and Tyranitar are bad Pokemon- they simply aren't. However, the second one is the real problem: People usually only play on the Suspect ladder if they want to use Latias, which means that teams on the Suspect ladder are going to be packing a Latias counter 100% of the time because their overall payoff is massive- Packing a couple Latias counters is very profitable when the chance your opponent will be using Latias is so high. The end result is that the Suspect Test ladder is ridiculously centralized around Latias, and the test means nothing.

As unorthodox as it sounds, I think this test would be done a lot better the other way around, like every other test. Add Latias into the standard ladder and run the Suspect ladder without Latias. The end result is that you get a larger usage draw for the ladder with Latias, and then you get a fair chance that teams will be far less centralized around Latias. You'll also get standard vanilla metagame stats to compare it to.

The current method seems to be best at what it has already done. Deciding the fate of pokemon that have been in OU for a while. I agree with you. When a pokemon is first introduced to OU on a separate ladder, it seems likely to create the situation that you've described.

I think it would be better if Uber pokemon were placed in two or three groups. Group 1 would be clearly Uber, such as Kyogre. Group 2 would be the rest. Or Group 2 would be divided, with Group 3 being those closest to being OU, like Skymin or Latias, and the rest would be Group 2.

All of Group 3 would be added to the Ladder. Prospective voters would be required to create test accounts. Any Group 3 members deemed to be Uber, by a signifigant margin, would be removed. If the vote were close then the current method(Suspect Ladder) would be used. The process would then be repeated with Group 2, once Group 3 is finished.

 

[bojangles]

So far I've been using Latias @ Draco Plate with CM, Dragon Pulse, Substitute, and Recover and its been functioning pretty well. Latias can really hold her own, but it doesn't seem overpowering. In many instances it actually seems kind of fragile, especially with the amount of TTars running around.

However, I feel that mono-dragon attacking seems kind of limited. Which seems to be best to go with Dragon Pulse: Surf, HP Fighting, or HP Fire?

 

[Evisu]

Dragon Pulse/Surf has been the best attack combo for me after trying both of those Hidden Powers and Psychic.

 

[lati0s]

I read the opening posts and I'm still not sure, do we have to achieve the ratings on both the standard and suspect ladders, or just the suspect ladder?

 

[bojangles]

Dragon Pulse/Surf has been the best attack combo for me after trying both of those Hidden Powers and Psychic.

Is it worth giving up a Substitute for? I've also found that Latias has a lot of trouble without one.

 

[Evisu]

Is it worth giving up a Substitute for? I've also found that Latias has a lot of trouble without one.

I still use Substitute, CM/Surf/Dragon Pulse/Sub. I've been trying out Recover over Sub with mixed results. Although I'm using Life Orb on my set with Recover and Leftovers with Sub.

I would like to see more people using Trick strategies, Specs Latias hit's pretty damn had.

 

[august]

I decided to use Hidden Power Fire on Latias but tahts only because i am using sub cm and the most common phazer (skarm) is steel type, plus it acts as my effective Scizor lure.

Today i noticed an uprise in stall teams, in 7 battles, 4 were stall teams. Imo its pretty damn hard to effectively stall right now and cover everything (i know of the teams stall teams ive faced, they generally share a sub cm latias weakness). I can actually say i havent lost to stall yet though, which is a good thing. Latias is under powered without soul dew so far, but i think pierce is right, specs latias could be causing some trouble.

 

[Scimjara]

i use Latias@leftovers
surf
grass knot
calm mind
recover
takes a while to set up and easily 2hkod i mean good pokemon but its OU worthy

 

[Scoopapa]

Latias is damn good, but I'm gonna say so far shes not uber. I think she's in league with gyarados, scizor, and lucario (among others) that can rape your team in the face if it gets a free turn and your main counter isn't in top shape. My favorite part of what she will add to the metagame is the ability to set up on Heatran. Hopefully this will be enough so that we won't have to see the volcanic frog on every damn team out there.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I faced some asshole who used 6Scarf'd Pokes that all have the ability to learn Trick even if it didn't use it against me on suspect. Who the fuck does this kind of shit jesus christ

 

[diamondfan1910]

I tried Calm Mind Latias. It's good. I think, that the Lati@s will fit in well with the OU metagame. They have some pretty surefire counters in Tyranitar and most bulky Pursuiters, whilst holding their own if need be.

I also tried Specs Latias at one point, but it's not too different than SpecsMence and Specs Latios will be better. Trick is a very nasty surprise on Choice sets, as well.

 

[Jumpman16]

As wonderful as that diatribe is, it still completely ignores my point. The only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder at this point is to use Latias, which means that 90% of teams have Latias on it, which means that 100% of teams have two or three Latias counters, and voila, overcentralized stats that mean nothing. Why play Suspect Test if you're not going to use Latias? If you're not using Latias, why not play on the main Standard ladder where your wins count? There IS draw to use Latias on a separate ladder. Too much draw. So much draw that the stats are going to mean absolute jack once the test is over. Not only that, but it creates obvious arguments, as the OU people are going to say, "Duh, Latias is OU because it dies so fast" and the Uber people are going to say, "Duh, Latias is Uber because you're forced to pack too many counters to it" when neither is actually the case.

the "obvious arguments" are going to be the exact kind of garbage that Aeolus and I will reject if the player does not reach the upper limit. did you miss the part where we've addressed the need to see people's reasoning and have thus modified the Suspect Test process?

and i am positive that you have no idea that usage of a suspect always, always drops throughout the course of a suspect test. it literally just happened with skymin, confirming the oft-repeated "i'm not seeing it" statement that was uttered in the final 10 or so days of the test. 90% of teams did NOT have skymin by the end of the test, everybody knows this. you are being short-sighted, it is as simple as that.

and "diatribe", yeah, that's not condescending at all. you and chris have a lot to learn about conversing with the staff, i dont care if it's personal

Sure you're creating a ton of draw to use Latias, but as it stands, that draw means nothing when the experience and the stats are both going to be useless in a horribly overcentralized metagame that has nothing to do with Latias' actual power or usefulness. If you simply added Latias to the Standard ladder and had the Suspect Test ladder just be the simple pre-Latias metagame, then first, anyone that wanted to vote would have to play in both a metagame with Latias and a metagame without Latias in the same time period, and second, Latias would be present in a metagame that isn't actually tailor-made for people to counter it. There's no need to reset people's stats on the main ladder because people will be forced to play in the Latias metagame if they want their wins to count, which will annoy some people, but not at the expense of making an absolutely useless round of Suspect Test.

"as it stands", the test has been going for a little over two days. there's four weeks left. i'm not worried about it, and neither is anyone who actually understands that a new pokemon will not continue to "overcentralize" (even though this word doesn't really mean anything anymore) a metagame for a full month unless it is actually, well, uber. see dx-s and the dual screen set that didn't really give a shit about the largely futile attempts to stop it.

Furthermore, there's a specific reason I'm talking about this so early on in the testing phase. It's because something needs to be done about this before we waste a second month on a vote that has no actual basis in logic and the Suspect Test completely falls apart. I'd rather have a contingency plan beforehand than just stand around watching the Suspect Test burn and go, "Well, we fucked up."

for probably the 20th time by now, we do have a contingency plan. it's called Stage 3. and you either refuse to acknowledge or just do not understand that a pokemon's intial hype and the corresponding response to it does not last "the whole time" like it could in a tourney unless it is really uber.

 

[Tangerine]

. The only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder at this point is to use Latias, which means that 90% of teams have Latias on it, which means that 100% of teams have two or three Latias counters, and voila, overcentralized stats that mean nothing.

Now that's being a bit too extreme and you know it. Sure, almost every team will make sure they can deal with Latias but to say that people will start carrying 2-3 Latias counters "just for Latias" is pretty much uncalled for at this point.

Secondly, you're looking at stats a bit too... statically. I really recommend you read this part of Jump's post because this is really how everyone should start looking at stats.

there's four weeks left. i'm not worried about it, and neither is anyone who actually understands that a new pokemon will not continue to "overcentralize" (even though this word doesn't really mean anything anymore) a metagame for a full month unless it is actually, well, uber. see dx-s and the dual screen set that didn't really give a shit about the largely futile attempts to stop it.

Basically, if Latias use continues to increase and shits over all the other Pokemon Garchomp style, I believe that's a pretty good argument on why it might be uber. (of course this says a thing or two about the Shaymin vote but we'll be looking back at Shaymin later thankfully!)

You're claiming that stats don't mean anything and that's a pretty extreme statement. I would argue that it gives a much better stats than usual because everyone is using Latias and shows how many people will "keep using Latias". Of course, this really helps if we have weekly stats but that's probably asking too much out of DJD. Either way, I'm pretty sure you can see what Jump and I are trying to say here.

Just because it is overcentralized does not mean that the entire experience is going to be useless. In fact, it is this experience that the Smogon staff wants you to get so you can make a pretty good experience with the suspect so you can make a well educated vote.

 

[Scimjara]

really latios and latias. I been using them on wifi and they are DAMN fragile but once actually 2-3 calm minds up they have potential to sweep their fast but they just have to many weaknesses.

 

[pyrzi]

Latias is clearly OU, maybe BL in an extreme case.

I would use HP Fire not because of Forretress, but because Scizor is pretty
much in every team there is in Standard.

Have there been increase in Sandstorm teams? Just heard about the new suspect.

 

[nyczxjay]

Not really SS teams, just Ttar usage has increased to counter Latias.

 

[Super]

Indeed. I see a bit less of them now. And Latias as well. So, what Jumpman said seems to be correct.

I made a new team, put Latias on it, working well. It's TWave support for my hax team, and Reflect is VERY useful in this physical metagame. However, Wish hasn't been helping much. Can barely help itself [not more room for Protect unless I don't want any moves yet]. Recover seems like it'd help more than Wish in my point, but perhaps I should tough it out a bit longer and see [it helped me in one match, where I switched, other than that nah]. However, it only really helps set the plan in motion by a bit rather than actually rape.

Machamp, though, has been sex. So has Snorlax, and Jirachi. Sometimes Kiss and Zapdos, but those top 3 are rape.

 

[Gaborik]

My personal favorite has been a double screen Latias so far. I don't even run an attack move on it at the moment (LS/Reflect/TWave/Recover @Light Clay). I don't have much of an EV spread yet (it is a work in process), but I don't run much speed at all in my current tests - +defense nature and 252 HP with the rest sprinkled in Defense/Special Defense/Speed EV's. Latias actually walls quite a bit of threats nicely and can proceed to cripple swap ins with TWave, Set up the appropriate screen(s) to help your own setup ensue. The Rotom forms also are moderatly successful at this same idea too (which is where I got it from to be honest). Latias is a natural counter to several common OU pokemon so it can create a nice setup for your team. Heatran and Infernape want no part of Latias, bulky waters are setup bait as their unboosted Ice Beams are laughable and you can Thunder Wave, Screen, Recover if they don't take a clue and swap out soon. Some other notable top used pokemon that don't want anything to do with Latias generally: Zapdos, Blissey (Don't let it CM up if you don't have someone to OHKO it obviously), Swampert, Bronzong, Azelf, Celebi, Vaporeon, Starmie, Skarmory, Suicune, Gliscor, etc. You can go down the OU list and find a lot of things that Latias can set up TWave/Screen support on. There are a lot of options to get a support Latias safely in and push its way around.

Just throwing out the idea if anyone wants to play around with it also as its been my favorite set. The style of play is different and took me a little time to get used to it. Dragon Dance Salamence/Gyarados and Bulk Up Machamp (with tweaked EV's from standards to maximize screen effectiveness) have been my initial tests for screen support on a team orientated around sweepers. I want to expand it and try a Reflect/Wish support type Latias on a stall team as well to see how it fares.

I'm aware other pokemon can provide Dual Screen support (as I mentioned the Rotoms gave me the idea), but Latias has been highly effective so far. I think its niche will lie in support, but we will see. I haven't play tested enough to have an opinion yet for sure (no one should have an opinion after 3/4 days of testing it, the ladder will evolve and hopefully show us some more about Latias as we get further along).

 

[Legacy Raider]

I like using Latias for Dual Screens because it is fast and can set up screens predicting the type of attack (like Deoxys-E used to do). Recover and its good defensive stats means it can set up the screens repeatedly throughout the battle, unlike things like Bronzong and Rotom. However, it literally screams "Tyranitar / Weavile, come Pursuit me to death", as even behind a screen Latias takes massive damage from their attacks. That's why I always like to pack something like Machamp on teams with Latias, which takes out things like Tyranitar, Weavile and Blissey which can get in Latias' way.

JM

2.

LR.

 

[Super]

What are you talking about Gab, Bliss eats Latias alive. I know my Bliss did, at least. Toxic it, and start Seismic Tossing. It can have refresh, but that eats a moveslot. I've had Latias stay in and try CMing on Blissey only to get raped. They usually have to switch out and come back in later.

Swampert also does some damage to Latias if it's physical, it takes good damage from Bronzong's Gyro Ball [it'd have to CM before it can dish back the pain].

Screening seems to be Latias' best use, so far. Give it that Clay thing that makes 8 turns screens and you're good to go.

 

[cim]

First off, the argument is not about whether or not players will overuse Latias. It's about the inherent broken-ness of the suspect test.

Say I'm an average Shoddy battler. If I wanted to whore Latias, I would be on the Suspect Test ladder. However, if my team isn't packing Latias, I don't want to be on the Suspect Test ladder because the stats aren't permanent and there's one less threat to account for on the Standard ladder.

So the end result is that you get two kinds of people on the Suspect Test ladder: People who want to use Latias, and people who want to battle a couple times in order to be able to vote (and will probably use Latias anyway).

This creates a situation in which carrying multiple Latias counters is incredibly profitable to any team on the Suspect Test ladder. Where the likelihood is rather large that your opponent will be carrying stuff like Heatran/Lucario/Gyarados etc...

Counters to those Pokemon are rather wasted if the Pokemon they're made to counter isn't there.

However, given the astronomical likelihood of Latias being used, there's no reason not to have a team pack at least two Latias counters.
This is why we're seeing massive spikes in Tyranitar/Metagross/Blissey in the ladder.

So teams on the Suspect Test ladder turn out to be something stupid like Latias/Counter/Counter/(Pokemon that beats counters x3)

Or you go TAY's route. Dragon Dragon Dragon Steel Steel Steel.

Salamence Dragonite Latias Heatran Metagross Scizor. You have at least three immunities to ground, four resists to fire, three resists to water, one resist to rock, only two SR weaknesses, multiple high-powered physical and special attackers, and voila. Replace Nite with Flygon and you've got only 1 SR weak and an immunity to Electric and another resistance to Rock.

The point here is that this "overcentralization", as one may call it, is going to happen partly because Latias is good, but is inevitably going to happen simply due to the way the Suspect test is set up. There are two reasons to play suspect: to use Latias and to vote (and voters should be testing Latias out). Thus, the metagame has no choice but to be artificially centralized. Which means that the experience that is gained has no bearing on how Latias would fare in the standard ladder and metagame.

The experience will be worthless, the stats will be worthless, and the test will have almost no bearing on Latias' actual performance in the tier, which undermines the entire Suspect Test process.

Furthermore, we can't wait until Stage 3 to fix things. If too many fuckups occur, we won't even get to Stage 3 and the whole thing falls apart. At this rate (1 in 3, optimistically) it'll take a year to get there.

There are very few reasons to play suspect. Experience will be either terribly skewed or minimal.

 

[too_talls]

seriously dude have you even been playing? or just wasting time posting here.

People have quickly realized that removing pokes that hold big threats like scizor just to counter latias isn't worth it.

As of now your more likely to be swept by a scizor than a latias. because scizor's standards are more scary.

And to all who think every t tar and scizor being played now in suspect is to counter latias, your wrong...... Refer to the november stats were scizor finsihed first and t tar was well on the rise into the top 6 anyways.

If you haven't noticed, heatrans are coming back again becase most teams realized they still suck without it, latias or not.