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NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned
- Thread starter Arcticblast
- Start date
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Pastelle
we're all star stuff
My crutch Pokemon is definitely Heatran. Its almost embarrassing how many teams I have it on, but its so hard for me not to use it. Its synergy in F/W/G cores is phenomenal, its has a great movepool, and it is so versatile in its sets and purpose. My personal favorite set is Safety Goggles with Flash Cannon, since it acts as my Fairy and Amoonguss check in one. I've used Sub-Tran a lot as well, it just depends on the team. Heat Wave and Earth Power in general are fantastic moves, and Flash Fire is a fantastic ability for opposing Sun teams. I just love bulky Fire-types, and Heatran is really the only viable one in DOU.
Interesting entries in the Metagame Secrets blog! I'd like to share my response to KyleCole's Sand Offense is HOT!
I like Tyranitar actually. It's a great answer to many common threats, such as Thundurus, Cresselia, Charizard, Kyurem-B, Talonflame, Gengar, and Latios. Just the fact that it can neuter the opponent's sun offense and rain offense are crucial reasons to use it. Definitely not an A tier mon any longer, with very exploitable weaknesses to Pixilate Hyper Voice, Skymin, Keldeo, Diancie, Metagross, Landorus-T, Terrakion but it's still a viable mon with a distinct niche, which no other mon can truly fill.
I personally enjoy using Scarf Tar, as the extra Speed makes it a lot more intimidating and also allows it to check threats more easily. It's a shame that it's still slower than Skymin, but it's nice to one up Talonflame, Latios, Metagross, Terrakion, Kangaskhan, Charizard, Thundurus, Jirachi, sun/rain sweepers (w/ sand up) etc etc. The lack of Protect is unfortunate on TTar, but it's a fair trade-off for being an immediate threat without any set up.
I've also used Mega Tar, too, but an all-attacking set in a team that mostly spread paralysis and occasional burns. Mega TTar's powerful Rock Slide is just that much more potent when paralysis is added to the mix, and Crunch is such a solid STAB in ORAS. I forego DD for Low Kick, which offers nice coverage with its two STAB moves. The 10 point increase in base Speed is huge, allowing me to check Bisharp (which would otherwise destroy my Cress) with Low Kick, before the steel knight can make a move (plus Sucker Punch resist).
Tyranitar doesn't always have to be paired with Excadrill on a sand team. A Sand Rush mon is nice, but compounding most of the same shortcomings aren't. Outside of boning Terrakion and Fairy types with Excadrill (which I guess are big pros), Excadrill doesn't add anything new to the team. It's frail, exacerbates the same weaknesses shared by TTar, and super dependent on Sand. I view Sand as more of a "disruption" strategy (breaking Sashes, neutering Sub KyuB, replacing the opponent's weather) than a "sweep with a Sand Sweeper," type of strategy, b/c I think it is much more easier and consistent to pull off the former than the latter. Granted, a sand team with Excadrill can also disrupt opponent's strategy, but then it adds too much emphasis in having Sand up as a win condition. I believe we can make better use of Excadrill's slot with something less squishier and situational.
Anybody else have any experiences with TTar or Sand in general? Does your experience with Excadrill differ from mine, KyleCole?
I like Tyranitar actually. It's a great answer to many common threats, such as Thundurus, Cresselia, Charizard, Kyurem-B, Talonflame, Gengar, and Latios. Just the fact that it can neuter the opponent's sun offense and rain offense are crucial reasons to use it. Definitely not an A tier mon any longer, with very exploitable weaknesses to Pixilate Hyper Voice, Skymin, Keldeo, Diancie, Metagross, Landorus-T, Terrakion but it's still a viable mon with a distinct niche, which no other mon can truly fill.
I personally enjoy using Scarf Tar, as the extra Speed makes it a lot more intimidating and also allows it to check threats more easily. It's a shame that it's still slower than Skymin, but it's nice to one up Talonflame, Latios, Metagross, Terrakion, Kangaskhan, Charizard, Thundurus, Jirachi, sun/rain sweepers (w/ sand up) etc etc. The lack of Protect is unfortunate on TTar, but it's a fair trade-off for being an immediate threat without any set up.
I've also used Mega Tar, too, but an all-attacking set in a team that mostly spread paralysis and occasional burns. Mega TTar's powerful Rock Slide is just that much more potent when paralysis is added to the mix, and Crunch is such a solid STAB in ORAS. I forego DD for Low Kick, which offers nice coverage with its two STAB moves. The 10 point increase in base Speed is huge, allowing me to check Bisharp (which would otherwise destroy my Cress) with Low Kick, before the steel knight can make a move (plus Sucker Punch resist).
Tyranitar doesn't always have to be paired with Excadrill on a sand team. A Sand Rush mon is nice, but compounding most of the same shortcomings aren't. Outside of boning Terrakion and Fairy types with Excadrill (which I guess are big pros), Excadrill doesn't add anything new to the team. It's frail, exacerbates the same weaknesses shared by TTar, and super dependent on Sand. I view Sand as more of a "disruption" strategy (breaking Sashes, neutering Sub KyuB, replacing the opponent's weather) than a "sweep with a Sand Sweeper," type of strategy, b/c I think it is much more easier and consistent to pull off the former than the latter. Granted, a sand team with Excadrill can also disrupt opponent's strategy, but then it adds too much emphasis in having Sand up as a win condition. I believe we can make better use of Excadrill's slot with something less squishier and situational.
Anybody else have any experiences with TTar or Sand in general? Does your experience with Excadrill differ from mine, KyleCole?
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Aegislash. That Pokemon has been the glue of so many teams that I have made that if that Pokemon didn't exist, the team wouldn't work nearly as well. I guess Amoonguss is another Pokemon that I commonly find as the crucial glue to my teams. Having both on the same team just makes it even better.
So call me crazy, but I think that a skymin suspect may be in order. While skymin might not be totally ban-worthy, it's definitely worthy of a suspect. Honestly, I feel that base 127 speed and Serene Grace is a little bit too much for the meta. Serene Grace Air Slash has an insane 60% chance to incapacitate any opponent that doesn't outspeed it. However, there are almost no unboosted pokemon who can manage to outspeed skymin unboosted because of its blazing fast 127 base speed. A bunch of bulky, speed-unrelated pokemon that would otherwise have absolutely no trouble taking care of skymin actually have to fear it instead of confidently charging into battle against it. Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Rotom-H, and Aegislash have to take into account that they will probably be flinched and completely vulnerable for that turn. This also applies to fast offensive threats that skymin outspeeds, like Mega Metagross, Darkrai, and Latios.
While previously not being too much of a nuisance, usage of Focus Sash over Life Orb on skymin has gone up like crazy. That being said, even if you manage to avoid being flinched (you have a better chance to be flinched than NOT to be flinched), you can't even ohko it with one pokemon. If Air Slash wasn't enough, Seed Flare with Serene Grace has a 68% (85% accuracy * 80% drop rate) chance to cut the opponent's special defense in half. This means that almost nothing can reliably switch-in unscathed because they need to recognize that they will very possibly be taking a twice as strong attack from either skymin or its specially offensive teammate. If skymin itself wasn't that big of an issue, then it can form a near-unstoppable core with keldeo for reasons that I shouldn't have to elaborate on. And now, with Mega Diancie being added into the mix, teams running skymin have absolutely no reason to worry about Thundurus-I dismantling the skydeo core.
Now, obviously, Air Slash is not guaranteed to flinch, and 60% is not nearly as high a chance of Seed Flare's almost guaranteed special defense drop. However, that's exactly what makes skymin so uncompetitive. Whether Air Slash flinches or not decides who has the immediate advantage, but, whether it flinches or not is entirely up to RNG. And its not a petty 30% chance like getting a burn on Scald. 60% is a very real and very unreliable chance to turn the entire match in your favor in just one attack.
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Funny that you stress how the "rise" of Sash Skymin (as if good players weren't using that set all along) makes it now a nuisance, but you also say Mega Diancie means Thundurus doesn't bother the Keld Skymin core. Well, maybe if people would stop running shitty bulky Thundurus and instead there were a "rise" in the use 252 speed Thundurus, they'd stop having problems with that 3 mon core.
stratos edit: this post is pretty needlessly aggressive but it made me laugh so hard that i liked it anyways
stratos edit: this post is pretty needlessly aggressive but it made me laugh so hard that i liked it anyways
I think it was always a nuisance, but due to the decline of CM Cress it's just gotten so much more annoying than normal. It's only because lots of teams with CM Cress didn't really worry about speed control that much because they were like "oh my god I have this thing that's so bulky it can beat anything regardless of whether i set tailwind up or not!!!". I've always found it annoying even in the CM Cresselia meta phase, those flinches are pure evil at that speed and you couldn't get up tailwind or trick room easily back then either.
If fast offensive Thundurus becomes a thing it'll be something you bring a lot later in the game due to the fact that it's taking this much from Kangaskhan Fake Out (252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 139-166 (46.4 - 55.5%)) and for a few other reasons. Bulky Thundurus is used to ensure you get off a few Thunder Waves and Taunt opposing Tailwind/Trick Room setters. I like offensive Thundurus but that certainly won't answer the Skymin issue.
Edit: at the same time it was worse in XY so not sure why we just bring up a skymin suspect out of the blue.
If fast offensive Thundurus becomes a thing it'll be something you bring a lot later in the game due to the fact that it's taking this much from Kangaskhan Fake Out (252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 139-166 (46.4 - 55.5%)) and for a few other reasons. Bulky Thundurus is used to ensure you get off a few Thunder Waves and Taunt opposing Tailwind/Trick Room setters. I like offensive Thundurus but that certainly won't answer the Skymin issue.
Edit: at the same time it was worse in XY so not sure why we just bring up a skymin suspect out of the blue.
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There's been quite a few discussion about future suspects in chatrooms and KyleCole's youtube vids, so I don't see why we can't have one on the forums. The contested Pokemon are: Skymin, Kyurem-B, and Hoopa-U. Disclaimer: whether to ultimately put these mons for trial is left to the council's decision.
I am going to first focus on the former two that have been around since the very beginning of Doubles. I think we can all agree that those two are handled adequately by our current metagame, and we should not bore each other by listing all the things that they can and can't do. They aren't "broken" in the classical sense, which increases the difficulty in classifying them as OU or Uber. However, as the competition in our community has ripened over the years, the impact that these two mons make in battles are quite obvious. So I think an important question to ask when considering the fate of these suspects are... "do they affect the match or the metagame for the better or for the worse?"
What makes the metagame better? We all have our own opinions about this, and here is mine - a good metagame is balanced, diverse, and competitive. Centralization is necessary for balance, but not to the extent where it applies a massive stranglehold in teambuilding. A competitive metagame is where a luck-based, unskillful strategies, which reduce the game into a pure dice roll, are eliminated. OHKO and Moody being a classic example. Do note that some amount of luck/second chances are actually desirable in a game of Pokemon, as mitigating these chances is part of a player's skill
What makes a match better? A good match would be a game where the player who played better wins. A good match is where the fate of the game isn't decided by team preview (unless the team was poorly built).
As its popularity increases, the effect it has on tactical play becomes quite evident. Its Air Slash flinches are game-changing, esp. with its 127 base Speed. Unlike Togekiss, it doesn't need to set up Tailwind to start flinching most of the metagame, and it is a lot harder to take the offensive when bombarded by powerful STAB Seed Flare and amazing coverage Earth Power. Focus Sash is its best item, and has made it even more difficult to eliminate Skymin (unless sand/SR). One can argue that Skymin can only attack/flinch one mon at a time, which leaves it vulnerable to the second mon. However, oftentimes Skymin can flinch/finish off one mon to create an optimal 1-vs-1 match up for its partner.
Of course there are solid answers to handling Skymin in a battle. Thunder Wave, Trick Room, and priority Brave Birds/Ice Shard are definitive ways to shut down Skymin. I also don't think that it's hard to account for Skymin in teambuilding, either, as it has many exploitable weaknesses (two of them being the most common spread moves in Rock Slide and Heat Wave). I also find Skymin's ability to check Mega Diancie, Azumarill, Rotom-W, Amoonguss, and maybe CM Cresselia as a positive influence to the metagame. However, I believe that its fast flinches may have an overbearing impact to our matches and outweigh its positive aspects. I am still on the fence about Skymin, which is exactly why it is suspect-worthy.
To be blunt, I believe Kyurem-B has a positive impact to the metagame. It hardly restrains teambuilding, as it is susceptible to virtually all common spread attacks and a good half of the metagame can scrape off lethal amount of health/outright KO. It has middling base 95 Speed, which puts it below top threats like Hydreigon/Kangaskhan/Charizard/Terrakion/Keldeo/Latios/Diancie/Metagross, all of which will beat Kyurem-B's best set, more often than not. That's why Kyurem-B's best set is Substitute, to protect itself from these common meta threats that will otherwise destroy it.
What makes Kyurem-B good for the metagame? I believe it adds a nice check-and-balance to mons like Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Amoonguss that are prevalent in our metagame. Removing Kyurem-B wouldn't change the metagame much outside of making these four threats a lot more centralizing. These mons are already enormous teambuilding constraints already - why would we want to make them even better? Kyurem-B puts these mons in check, without breaking any offensive or defensive thresholds of OU (no, IB + Terravolt EP coming off of 120 SpA/95 Spe is not some unbeatable combination that Doubles cannot handle | and no, Dragon/Ice isn't an exceptional defensive typing either).
Kyurem-B is undoubtedly a stellar mon and a Doubles staple. Same can be said about Heatran, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Aegislash, and Amoonguss, arguably moreso than Kyurem-B. These are all exceptional mons with a distinct and powerful niche in this metagame. I don't understand why we're singling Kyurem-B out, which is by far the least restrictive force in the game. Heck, I find Azumarill, Talonflame, Thundurus, and Diancie much more suspect-worthy than Kyurem-B, for being a greater choice-limiting force in teambuilding and in battling. To me this gorilla dragon is not suspect-worthy, let alone ban-worthy.
It hits hard with 160 Atk / 170 SpA and possesses two decently powered moves to break past protection moves. However it's meddling base 80 Speed and shoddy physical defense leave it vulnerable to opponent's moves moreso than the top dogs of DOU. Furthermore, Dark/Psychic does not supply it with any particularly useful resistances, outside of a Psychic immunity. Absence of priority moves doesn't help its sweeping potential either. It seems to have similar problems as other hard hitters stuck in an odd speed tier, such as Mega Heracross, Mega Garchomp, and Chandelure, except these mons can actually switch into moves. Despite its 680 BST and protection-breaking moves, we can hardly consider this mon uber material, due to the unfortunate shortcomings of its stats distribution and typing.
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Reminder: Having BST above 670 should not be considered a valid reason to ban anything. It looks at the Pokemon in a vacuum, without any context to the Doubles metagame whatsoever. When we hear things like, "Nintendo did NOT intend for Pokemon with 70+ power gap to be playable in OU," we can't help but shake our heads, b/c such a comment fail to judge the suspect under the context of the DOU metagame (I can actually see Nintendo's "intentions" were to restrict the potential of KyuB and Hoopa-U quite clearly, but again, this is an irrelevant point). Not to mention, as Joim and I initially laid out, Ubers can be tested in DOU if there is convincing belief that it would not be overcentralizing; they simply blend right in (not breaking any offensive or defensive thresholds of OU) with plenty of its checks amply present in currently standard teams.
Hoopa-U definitely fits the bill here, as well as Kyurem-B. The rest of the ubers you will have a much difficult case justifying its drop to DOU.
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I hope this post will spark some discussion about potential suspects in the right direction.
Please consider these metagame aspects for your future tiering policy endeavors, fellow Doubles contributors.
I am going to first focus on the former two that have been around since the very beginning of Doubles. I think we can all agree that those two are handled adequately by our current metagame, and we should not bore each other by listing all the things that they can and can't do. They aren't "broken" in the classical sense, which increases the difficulty in classifying them as OU or Uber. However, as the competition in our community has ripened over the years, the impact that these two mons make in battles are quite obvious. So I think an important question to ask when considering the fate of these suspects are... "do they affect the match or the metagame for the better or for the worse?"
What makes the metagame better? We all have our own opinions about this, and here is mine - a good metagame is balanced, diverse, and competitive. Centralization is necessary for balance, but not to the extent where it applies a massive stranglehold in teambuilding. A competitive metagame is where a luck-based, unskillful strategies, which reduce the game into a pure dice roll, are eliminated. OHKO and Moody being a classic example. Do note that some amount of luck/second chances are actually desirable in a game of Pokemon, as mitigating these chances is part of a player's skill
What makes a match better? A good match would be a game where the player who played better wins. A good match is where the fate of the game isn't decided by team preview (unless the team was poorly built).
So do Skymin and Kyurem-B influence the metagame for the better or worse?
- Skymin -
As its popularity increases, the effect it has on tactical play becomes quite evident. Its Air Slash flinches are game-changing, esp. with its 127 base Speed. Unlike Togekiss, it doesn't need to set up Tailwind to start flinching most of the metagame, and it is a lot harder to take the offensive when bombarded by powerful STAB Seed Flare and amazing coverage Earth Power. Focus Sash is its best item, and has made it even more difficult to eliminate Skymin (unless sand/SR). One can argue that Skymin can only attack/flinch one mon at a time, which leaves it vulnerable to the second mon. However, oftentimes Skymin can flinch/finish off one mon to create an optimal 1-vs-1 match up for its partner.
Of course there are solid answers to handling Skymin in a battle. Thunder Wave, Trick Room, and priority Brave Birds/Ice Shard are definitive ways to shut down Skymin. I also don't think that it's hard to account for Skymin in teambuilding, either, as it has many exploitable weaknesses (two of them being the most common spread moves in Rock Slide and Heat Wave). I also find Skymin's ability to check Mega Diancie, Azumarill, Rotom-W, Amoonguss, and maybe CM Cresselia as a positive influence to the metagame. However, I believe that its fast flinches may have an overbearing impact to our matches and outweigh its positive aspects. I am still on the fence about Skymin, which is exactly why it is suspect-worthy.
- Kyurem-B -
To be blunt, I believe Kyurem-B has a positive impact to the metagame. It hardly restrains teambuilding, as it is susceptible to virtually all common spread attacks and a good half of the metagame can scrape off lethal amount of health/outright KO. It has middling base 95 Speed, which puts it below top threats like Hydreigon/Kangaskhan/Charizard/Terrakion/Keldeo/Latios/Diancie/Metagross, all of which will beat Kyurem-B's best set, more often than not. That's why Kyurem-B's best set is Substitute, to protect itself from these common meta threats that will otherwise destroy it.
What makes Kyurem-B good for the metagame? I believe it adds a nice check-and-balance to mons like Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Amoonguss that are prevalent in our metagame. Removing Kyurem-B wouldn't change the metagame much outside of making these four threats a lot more centralizing. These mons are already enormous teambuilding constraints already - why would we want to make them even better? Kyurem-B puts these mons in check, without breaking any offensive or defensive thresholds of OU (no, IB + Terravolt EP coming off of 120 SpA/95 Spe is not some unbeatable combination that Doubles cannot handle | and no, Dragon/Ice isn't an exceptional defensive typing either).
Kyurem-B is undoubtedly a stellar mon and a Doubles staple. Same can be said about Heatran, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Aegislash, and Amoonguss, arguably moreso than Kyurem-B. These are all exceptional mons with a distinct and powerful niche in this metagame. I don't understand why we're singling Kyurem-B out, which is by far the least restrictive force in the game. Heck, I find Azumarill, Talonflame, Thundurus, and Diancie much more suspect-worthy than Kyurem-B, for being a greater choice-limiting force in teambuilding and in battling. To me this gorilla dragon is not suspect-worthy, let alone ban-worthy.
-Hoopa-U -
It hits hard with 160 Atk / 170 SpA and possesses two decently powered moves to break past protection moves. However it's meddling base 80 Speed and shoddy physical defense leave it vulnerable to opponent's moves moreso than the top dogs of DOU. Furthermore, Dark/Psychic does not supply it with any particularly useful resistances, outside of a Psychic immunity. Absence of priority moves doesn't help its sweeping potential either. It seems to have similar problems as other hard hitters stuck in an odd speed tier, such as Mega Heracross, Mega Garchomp, and Chandelure, except these mons can actually switch into moves. Despite its 680 BST and protection-breaking moves, we can hardly consider this mon uber material, due to the unfortunate shortcomings of its stats distribution and typing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reminder: Having BST above 670 should not be considered a valid reason to ban anything. It looks at the Pokemon in a vacuum, without any context to the Doubles metagame whatsoever. When we hear things like, "Nintendo did NOT intend for Pokemon with 70+ power gap to be playable in OU," we can't help but shake our heads, b/c such a comment fail to judge the suspect under the context of the DOU metagame (I can actually see Nintendo's "intentions" were to restrict the potential of KyuB and Hoopa-U quite clearly, but again, this is an irrelevant point). Not to mention, as Joim and I initially laid out, Ubers can be tested in DOU if there is convincing belief that it would not be overcentralizing; they simply blend right in (not breaking any offensive or defensive thresholds of OU) with plenty of its checks amply present in currently standard teams.
Hoopa-U definitely fits the bill here, as well as Kyurem-B. The rest of the ubers you will have a much difficult case justifying its drop to DOU.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this post will spark some discussion about potential suspects in the right direction.
Please consider these metagame aspects for your future tiering policy endeavors, fellow Doubles contributors.
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Breaking Protect with a base 100 power STAB signature move that's powered by a base 160 Attack stat, as well as another base 80 STAB signature move that breaks Protect and, once again, is powered by an extremely high Special Attack stat of 170, sounds ridiculous. That means that everything that Hoopa-U beats with these two STABs has to switch; there's no Protecting to stall out Trick Room, there's no Protecting to stall out Tailwind, and there's no Protecting to have your partner attack Hoopa-U. While Psychic/Dark coverage isn't impressive in terms of supereffective hits, look at the damage it gets off while its opponents can't Protect:
That's mad, especially after being supported by Trick Room/Tailwind/whatever other speed control. Supposing a situation of Hoopa-Unbound+Zapdos, it can set Tailwind (which magically gets better since you break Protect and they have to switch to stall it out or bring bulky af mons aside from Cresselia) and use Heat Wave to break the Focus Sash or pick up finishing blows on Pokemon that Hoopa-Unbound couldn't pick up the kill on, as well as Thunderbolt coverage to make it even harder for opponents. With 88 Speed on Zapdos and max speed neutral nature Hoopa-Unbound, Hoopa could break Protect for Zapdos before Zapdos takes its turn and finishes its targets. Remove Zapdos and fit something else with speed control on with similar ideas and think about Hoopa's potential. There's no sure way to at all defend yourself when Hoopa-U is supported by speed control, as there aren't a bunch of Pokemon with priority moves. I counted 5 in Tier 2 or above.
I still don't see why at all this thing would be allowed in the meta game. Hoopa is tame, but Hoopa-U is just outright stupid.
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 199-235 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 258-304 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 296-350 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 266-314 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 302-356 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 276-326 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Rotom-W: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Jirachi: 390-462 (96.5 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 506-596 (169.2 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 416-492 (158.7 - 187.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 504-594 (193.1 - 227.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 288-342 (110.3 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 199-235 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 258-304 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 296-350 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 266-314 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 302-356 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 276-326 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Rotom-W: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Jirachi: 390-462 (96.5 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 506-596 (169.2 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 416-492 (158.7 - 187.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gengar: 504-594 (193.1 - 227.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Hoopa Hyperspace Hole vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 288-342 (110.3 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's mad, especially after being supported by Trick Room/Tailwind/whatever other speed control. Supposing a situation of Hoopa-Unbound+Zapdos, it can set Tailwind (which magically gets better since you break Protect and they have to switch to stall it out or bring bulky af mons aside from Cresselia) and use Heat Wave to break the Focus Sash or pick up finishing blows on Pokemon that Hoopa-Unbound couldn't pick up the kill on, as well as Thunderbolt coverage to make it even harder for opponents. With 88 Speed on Zapdos and max speed neutral nature Hoopa-Unbound, Hoopa could break Protect for Zapdos before Zapdos takes its turn and finishes its targets. Remove Zapdos and fit something else with speed control on with similar ideas and think about Hoopa's potential. There's no sure way to at all defend yourself when Hoopa-U is supported by speed control, as there aren't a bunch of Pokemon with priority moves. I counted 5 in Tier 2 or above.
I still don't see why at all this thing would be allowed in the meta game. Hoopa is tame, but Hoopa-U is just outright stupid.
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Thanks, IIG, for the rebuttal - it's solid. However, Its physical frailty and dependence on Speed control make it a borderline broken / suspect-worthy case than a "clearly Uber" case imho. I need to build a team with Hoopa and evaluate its destructive power and frailty for myself. Please share your experiences and replays :]
Here's a Hoopa U set I've been trying, quite like it.
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def / 140 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Ice Punch / Gunk Shot
- Protect
I was playing with Semiroom mixed Hoopa so that I could forgoe speed investment. This set OHKOs standard Amoonguss with Hyperspace Psychic (special) with max attack. The bulk investment hits the lowest Life Orb HP stat with the rest in physical Def to patch up Hoopas bad Def stat. The coverage is pretty much up to what you need. I know it's tempting to use an Ice move on anything that learns it to hit Landorus-T, but Gunk Shot is better for helping Hoopa get around Spdef fairies that beat it. Unless you miss.
Changed Hoopa in the calc to 80/160/60/170/130/80 base stats and Psychic/Dark type
252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 619-730 (157.1 - 185.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (lol)
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa Ice Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 400-473 (121.2 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Changed Psychic to 80 base power
140 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Amoonguss: 432-510 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tbh this thing doesn't seem broken in the least, obviously I'll be playing a lot more before making a final callLIKE YOU ALL SHOULD, CALM THE HELL DOWN but it sure is fun to use :)
EDIT: megacyber brought this up in the chat
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def / 140 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Ice Punch / Gunk Shot
- Protect
I was playing with Semiroom mixed Hoopa so that I could forgoe speed investment. This set OHKOs standard Amoonguss with Hyperspace Psychic (special) with max attack. The bulk investment hits the lowest Life Orb HP stat with the rest in physical Def to patch up Hoopas bad Def stat. The coverage is pretty much up to what you need. I know it's tempting to use an Ice move on anything that learns it to hit Landorus-T, but Gunk Shot is better for helping Hoopa get around Spdef fairies that beat it. Unless you miss.
Changed Hoopa in the calc to 80/160/60/170/130/80 base stats and Psychic/Dark type
252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 619-730 (157.1 - 185.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (lol)
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa Ice Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 400-473 (121.2 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Changed Psychic to 80 base power
140 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Amoonguss: 432-510 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tbh this thing doesn't seem broken in the least, obviously I'll be playing a lot more before making a final call
EDIT: megacyber brought this up in the chat
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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I call this the "I wear my sunglasses at night"
Hoopa-Unbound @ Black Glasses
Ability: Magician
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Gunk Shot / Drain Punch
- Protect
Avoiding the 2hko from aegislash is kinda pointless if you have life orb, because the life orb recoil effectively turns it into a 2hko- hence blackglasses. They look cool, and they are a little better for spamming hyperspace fury, which is what i fully intend on doing with hoopa. Gunk shot and drain punch are coverage for fairy and dark types respectively.
Hoopa-Unbound @ Black Glasses
Ability: Magician
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Gunk Shot / Drain Punch
- Protect
Avoiding the 2hko from aegislash is kinda pointless if you have life orb, because the life orb recoil effectively turns it into a 2hko- hence blackglasses. They look cool, and they are a little better for spamming hyperspace fury, which is what i fully intend on doing with hoopa. Gunk shot and drain punch are coverage for fairy and dark types respectively.
Regarding Hoopa-u,
Hoopa-u is an interesting Pokemon, and a lot of the council doesn't know what to make of it. Early indications and a bunch of theorymoning indicates that it may be over powered. Although, instead of quick banning it without any knowledge on how it plays or functions in the meta, we will be having a council vote at some point in the next couple weeks to determine the future of Hoopa-u. If the Pokemon isn't banned based on the councils vote, and at a later date proves to be over powered or too centralizing for the meta, we will suspect it. For now just go and play some games with Hoopa-u and post your thoughts here to share them with us.
Hoopa-u is an interesting Pokemon, and a lot of the council doesn't know what to make of it. Early indications and a bunch of theorymoning indicates that it may be over powered. Although, instead of quick banning it without any knowledge on how it plays or functions in the meta, we will be having a council vote at some point in the next couple weeks to determine the future of Hoopa-u. If the Pokemon isn't banned based on the councils vote, and at a later date proves to be over powered or too centralizing for the meta, we will suspect it. For now just go and play some games with Hoopa-u and post your thoughts here to share them with us.
I feel like we can just not simply base a Pokemons viabilty on 1v1 calculations because there is almost never going to be a 1v1 situation..especially considering how crazily speed dependant this Pokemon is...I would day just give it a week to see if it needs a quickban or a suspect, after all calculations are not the only thing in this game, we'll have to see if this Pokemon is truly as powerful as we thought it was in our theories. I think this pokemon is broken but look at how slow this pokemon is for the HO meta that is doubles right now, and that basically any priority is able to deal tons of damage...on the other side, we have 160/170/80 offenses whivh are really really good for this meta, also the ability to bypass protects and substitues is really scary and I feel like this Pokemon will make this meta even more based on HO as ot currently is
Stratos
Banned deucer.
ok so today's evo matches ended so i can respond to your post now Pocket.
Think about this: If we wanted to, we could start off with absolutely nothing banned and ban down until we have a balanced metagame and I guarantee we wouldn't have our current banlist (perhaps literally only Mega Ray being banned?) But that's not what we did. OU is the metagame of standard play and we as a community through the years have clearly looked at the list of Pokemon and said "these do not fit the description of standard play" and banned them and historically and consistently that line has fallen on the cover legends. I'm not just bullshitting here—I've talked to Mekkah once about why the old banlists are what they are (especially since most GSCers think Ho-Oh would be balanced) and he said "up through ADV the consensus was just that non trio legends were banned. When ADV moved to NetBattle the NB guys had Jirachi and Celebi unbanned and people bitched at first but eventually accepted it." The history lesson about ADV rulesets isn't really important, what's important is that there has always been a consensus of setting a clean and simple line from which we define standard play.
The line has clearly been drawn—not just on Smogon but also at TPCi—at 600, since DPP, and it makes sense. I'm not saying that we can never test hoopa-u for a drop but i'm saying we have treated every other Pokemon above that line one way and we are treating hoopa-u another.
Why am I making a big fuss about this? Two reasons:
1) A drop is not the same as a ban, not just in terms of the fact that you need a 40% ban vote to keep something in ubers but a 60% ban vote to send something there, but also in the fact that a test for a drop has a stricter standard than a test for a ban—a drop test has to prove that something isn't bullshit at all, whereas a ban test only has to prove that something isn't intolerably bullshit, in order for it to end up in OU. You may say "if it's starting in ou and not banned or starting in ubers and unbanned, what's the difference?" but there is one because:
2) I want a consistent method to handle future cases. I don't think that "judgment call" is sustainable for the long term. There needs to be a systematic method to handling future generations and the obvious one is drawing a line in the sand in terms of BST where "above this goes to ubers and is tested for drop, below this goes to OU and is tested for ban." Had senior staff not kicked me out of tier leadership a week ago, Hoopa-U would almost certainly be Uber right now. And as I said, there is a difference there, large enough that it's honestly more likely than not that something will come along which would stay uber if it started uber or stay ou if it started ou. That sort of variance isn't acceptable in my opinion.
unrelated but unless you think Kyurem-W was intentionally nerfed by GameFreak you cannot possibly in a sane state of mind make the argument that Kyurem-B was, they were obviously intended to be two sides of the same coin and the fact that Kyurem-W is the better of the two is wholly an accident of the way that Dragon and Ice attacks worked out (no physical draco equivalent, access to IB but not IC).
as a side note, i really appreciate the fact that you considered my opinion something that "we"
---
Seed Flare drops are quite possibly the best thing about skymin and you don't even fucking mention them. Not only does Seed Flare mean Skymin has basically no switchins because any potential switchin would eat a drop and then get finished off by the appropriate move the following turn, but also it means that skymin + another special attacker (keldeo being the popular tho hardly only option) can one-two punch any pokemon in the game which both outspeed. Skymin's options vs slower Pokemon are pretty overwhelming and considering that it has base 127 speed that is unfortunate. In no small part thanks to Skymin, I think that trick room is borderline unplayable to fully unplayable, and it's got an insane amount of lockdown power on basically everything—yes if you paralyze it it turns to shit but i don't want every team running Thundurus.
Think of common defensive Pokemon. Heatran, Rotom-W, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, (non cm) Cresselia, Gyarados, Thundurus, Politoed, Rotom-H. Notice a trend? Cube bait. Things like Wolfey's Nationals team this year? (Milotic/Landorus/Thundurus/Heatran/Amoonguss/Kangaskhan?) Classic defensive build, completely unusable in DOU because of Cube. Kyurem-B makes defensive teams virtually unplayable all on its own, because with its completely unresisted coverage (before someone mentions surskit, fuck you), the only good way to beat it is to prevent it from setting up a sub at all, which defensive teams cannot do.
don't even get me started on rain, rain's best play vs cube half the time is click x and hope for a better matchup next game. I mean rain can handle cube, or it can handle ferro, but i have never seen a rain team that can handle both.
you describing pokemon like rotom-w as "more restricting than kyurem-b" is just telling me not to even bother pressing this point further.
Except it is a valid approach to banning philosophy. Not to run a suspect test and say "ok I think hoopa-u should be banned because it has 680 bst" but to say "hoopa-u should start off in the Uber tier" is a completely valid philosophy regarding running DOU.
Think about this: If we wanted to, we could start off with absolutely nothing banned and ban down until we have a balanced metagame and I guarantee we wouldn't have our current banlist (perhaps literally only Mega Ray being banned?) But that's not what we did. OU is the metagame of standard play and we as a community through the years have clearly looked at the list of Pokemon and said "these do not fit the description of standard play" and banned them and historically and consistently that line has fallen on the cover legends. I'm not just bullshitting here—I've talked to Mekkah once about why the old banlists are what they are (especially since most GSCers think Ho-Oh would be balanced) and he said "up through ADV the consensus was just that non trio legends were banned. When ADV moved to NetBattle the NB guys had Jirachi and Celebi unbanned and people bitched at first but eventually accepted it." The history lesson about ADV rulesets isn't really important, what's important is that there has always been a consensus of setting a clean and simple line from which we define standard play.
The line has clearly been drawn—not just on Smogon but also at TPCi—at 600, since DPP, and it makes sense. I'm not saying that we can never test hoopa-u for a drop but i'm saying we have treated every other Pokemon above that line one way and we are treating hoopa-u another.
Why am I making a big fuss about this? Two reasons:
1) A drop is not the same as a ban, not just in terms of the fact that you need a 40% ban vote to keep something in ubers but a 60% ban vote to send something there, but also in the fact that a test for a drop has a stricter standard than a test for a ban—a drop test has to prove that something isn't bullshit at all, whereas a ban test only has to prove that something isn't intolerably bullshit, in order for it to end up in OU. You may say "if it's starting in ou and not banned or starting in ubers and unbanned, what's the difference?" but there is one because:
2) I want a consistent method to handle future cases. I don't think that "judgment call" is sustainable for the long term. There needs to be a systematic method to handling future generations and the obvious one is drawing a line in the sand in terms of BST where "above this goes to ubers and is tested for drop, below this goes to OU and is tested for ban." Had senior staff not kicked me out of tier leadership a week ago, Hoopa-U would almost certainly be Uber right now. And as I said, there is a difference there, large enough that it's honestly more likely than not that something will come along which would stay uber if it started uber or stay ou if it started ou. That sort of variance isn't acceptable in my opinion.
unrelated but unless you think Kyurem-W was intentionally nerfed by GameFreak you cannot possibly in a sane state of mind make the argument that Kyurem-B was, they were obviously intended to be two sides of the same coin and the fact that Kyurem-W is the better of the two is wholly an accident of the way that Dragon and Ice attacks worked out (no physical draco equivalent, access to IB but not IC).
as a side note, i really appreciate the fact that you considered my opinion something that "we"
at, i hope you don't mind me treating yours with the same respect.
---
As for where I stand on suspect tests—I'm down for both a Kyurem-B and Shaymin-S suspect; I wouldn't be distraught if we never suspected either, and ideally we would wait 3-4 months to see if the meta could adjust to Skymin before suspecting it. At the moment I would probably vote to ban Kyurem-B and not to ban Shaymin-S. I haven't played at all with hoopa-u so i can't talk about its effect on the meta, simply how i think it should be handled from a philosophical standpoint.
CTRL + F "drop": not found
Seed Flare drops are quite possibly the best thing about skymin and you don't even fucking mention them. Not only does Seed Flare mean Skymin has basically no switchins because any potential switchin would eat a drop and then get finished off by the appropriate move the following turn, but also it means that skymin + another special attacker (keldeo being the popular tho hardly only option) can one-two punch any pokemon in the game which both outspeed. Skymin's options vs slower Pokemon are pretty overwhelming and considering that it has base 127 speed that is unfortunate. In no small part thanks to Skymin, I think that trick room is borderline unplayable to fully unplayable, and it's got an insane amount of lockdown power on basically everything—yes if you paralyze it it turns to shit but i don't want every team running Thundurus.
lmao. have u even talked to anyone whos been around in the last year?
Think of common defensive Pokemon. Heatran, Rotom-W, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, (non cm) Cresselia, Gyarados, Thundurus, Politoed, Rotom-H. Notice a trend? Cube bait. Things like Wolfey's Nationals team this year? (Milotic/Landorus/Thundurus/Heatran/Amoonguss/Kangaskhan?) Classic defensive build, completely unusable in DOU because of Cube. Kyurem-B makes defensive teams virtually unplayable all on its own, because with its completely unresisted coverage (before someone mentions surskit, fuck you), the only good way to beat it is to prevent it from setting up a sub at all, which defensive teams cannot do.
don't even get me started on rain, rain's best play vs cube half the time is click x and hope for a better matchup next game. I mean rain can handle cube, or it can handle ferro, but i have never seen a rain team that can handle both.
you describing pokemon like rotom-w as "more restricting than kyurem-b" is just telling me not to even bother pressing this point further.
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The reason for 1v1 calculations in my earlier post was to show that there's no point in at all using Protect while Hoopa-U is out. Unlike 99.99% of Pokemon you can't reliably click Protect against this Pokemon, which is the scariest thing about it. Also it isn't exactly "crazy speed dependent", it functions well without Tailwind or Trick Room set but if speed control is in place there's no reliable way to beat offensive setter+Hoopa-U aside from like priority, but I mean this:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
isn't fun.
I did include CM Cress as one of the mons Skymin "check," thanks to Seed Flare drops. I definitely think that Air Slash flinch is what pushes Skymin to suspect status moreso than the Seed Flare special drop, which is why I didn't emphasize the point. With an Air Slash flinch scenario, you render one mon immobile while the other is being finished off by Skymin's partner. With Seed Flare + Hydro Pump scenario, it is double-targeting one mon, which can lead to an opening. If Shaymin-S only learned Seed Flare and not Air Slash, I doubt we'll be having a conversation about suspecting it, even despite Seed Flare acting as a pseudo Contrary Leaf Storm in a way.
Cresselia isn't cube bait. Politoed can force Kyu-B's moves with either Encore or Perish Song, and offensive variants can break Kyu-B's sub with Rain-boosted Hydro Pump. Jirachi, AV Scrafty, Escavalier/Scizor and Tyranitar exist if you are desperate for a solid answer to Kyurem-B. Sylveon is defensively inclined and forces Kyu-B even behind a Substitute.
I've made a defensively oriented team, and Cresselia, Tyranitar, and Scrafty were all solid checks. Kyurem-B didn't exactly like switching into Heatran (esp behind a Sub) or Rotom-H, either. Cresselia had Skill Swap, so it can take away Kyurem-B's Teravolt and make Rotom-H is a hard check, too. Trust me, defensive teams have plenty of other threats to worry about than Kyurem-B, and the dragon has certainly not made defensive teams unplayable. Of course if you bring a defensive VGC team that doesn't take Kyurem-B into account, it may lose terribly to it. However, there are numerous Pokemon available even in VGC that can handle Kyurem-B.
As for your little history lesson, I've lived the era. Suspect testing didn't even exist during that time. Pokemon like Ho-oh in GSC were kept out of the game, despite being a potentially unimpressive mon in OU. With suspect testing, we can now create our own banlists with as little arbitrary or gratuitous bans as possible. We ban based on the Pokemon's individual merits, not based on an arbitrary threshold carried over from TPCi or pre-BW era smh.
I understand that you're upset with Hoopa-U receiving the "OU" treatment, and will take 60% (what happened to supermajority?) to be banned as opposed to 40%. IDK why you and the other council members haven't talked this over. Maybe Hoopa-U can be considered as an "Uber drop" and would require 60% approval to stay in OU. Discuss that with the council if you'd like.
However, Kyurem-B was transferred over from BW2, so it makes perfect sense to keep it in the initial XY tier, where there are even more Kyu-B answers and even more power creep that make the dragon look tame.
Cresselia isn't cube bait. Politoed can force Kyu-B's moves with either Encore or Perish Song, and offensive variants can break Kyu-B's sub with Rain-boosted Hydro Pump. Jirachi, AV Scrafty, Escavalier/Scizor and Tyranitar exist if you are desperate for a solid answer to Kyurem-B. Sylveon is defensively inclined and forces Kyu-B even behind a Substitute.
I've made a defensively oriented team, and Cresselia, Tyranitar, and Scrafty were all solid checks. Kyurem-B didn't exactly like switching into Heatran (esp behind a Sub) or Rotom-H, either. Cresselia had Skill Swap, so it can take away Kyurem-B's Teravolt and make Rotom-H is a hard check, too. Trust me, defensive teams have plenty of other threats to worry about than Kyurem-B, and the dragon has certainly not made defensive teams unplayable. Of course if you bring a defensive VGC team that doesn't take Kyurem-B into account, it may lose terribly to it. However, there are numerous Pokemon available even in VGC that can handle Kyurem-B.
As for your little history lesson, I've lived the era. Suspect testing didn't even exist during that time. Pokemon like Ho-oh in GSC were kept out of the game, despite being a potentially unimpressive mon in OU. With suspect testing, we can now create our own banlists with as little arbitrary or gratuitous bans as possible. We ban based on the Pokemon's individual merits, not based on an arbitrary threshold carried over from TPCi or pre-BW era smh.
I understand that you're upset with Hoopa-U receiving the "OU" treatment, and will take 60% (what happened to supermajority?) to be banned as opposed to 40%. IDK why you and the other council members haven't talked this over. Maybe Hoopa-U can be considered as an "Uber drop" and would require 60% approval to stay in OU. Discuss that with the council if you'd like.
However, Kyurem-B was transferred over from BW2, so it makes perfect sense to keep it in the initial XY tier, where there are even more Kyu-B answers and even more power creep that make the dragon look tame.
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regarding why Keith hates cube so much is most likely because he is incapable of building HO. Sub Kyurem is as good as it is because it completely 100% no questions asked beats bulky teams EVERY time. The second a team has the almighty Amoonguss + Rotom-W + Heatran core that everyone uses but isn't that ridiculously amazing, your team loses almost guaranteed to cube, even if u do have a check or two in the back pocket.
Kyurem-B is in no way over powered against hyper offense, or even offense with a few patch mons. You could easily win against cube with a team of amoong + rotom-w + 3-4 things that can do over 50% to it, because it doesn't have that huge of a dmg output against mons it hits neutral, and as pocket stated, doesn't take many middling / strong attacks to take down.
The thing about Kyurem-B is that it forces you to mix up your team if you have a tendency to spam bulky mons. You can't just get away with making a team lookin like cress / amoong / rotom-w / tran / lando / one cube answer, and you shouldn't be able to, because that's dull as fuck. Defensive builds are still viable, just not fully defensive builds. And that pleases me, even if it won't please Keith xd
Kyurem-B is in no way over powered against hyper offense, or even offense with a few patch mons. You could easily win against cube with a team of amoong + rotom-w + 3-4 things that can do over 50% to it, because it doesn't have that huge of a dmg output against mons it hits neutral, and as pocket stated, doesn't take many middling / strong attacks to take down.
The thing about Kyurem-B is that it forces you to mix up your team if you have a tendency to spam bulky mons. You can't just get away with making a team lookin like cress / amoong / rotom-w / tran / lando / one cube answer, and you shouldn't be able to, because that's dull as fuck. Defensive builds are still viable, just not fully defensive builds. And that pleases me, even if it won't please Keith xd
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
well first things first, fuck u bitch, if i wasnt capable of building decent teams then i wouldnt consistently outplace u in seasonals so i dont believe thats the problem here. i can build teams without cube problems just fine.
fuck u bitch again, ive used this core on exactly one team i have ever built in my entire life
it's true that you can build balanced teams; I have a team which is Amoong + Rotom-W + Cube + Aegis + Diancie + Volcarona and ignoring that it loses to skymin because i just must have completely blanked and forgotten it during the building phase it's a good team. But balanced is (*gasp*) not the same as defensive. If you're ok with one entire team style (perhaps two if ppl can't find a way to make rain work) being made unviable thanks to cube then props to you, but i am not.
it is unless cm
literally only one of these is viable; vest scrafty, esca, scizor, and tyranitar are all absolutely terrible in the current metagame
i do like the idea of hoopa-u needing a 60% unban vote to stay in dou though
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sry for cherrypicking ur post, but i agree with everything else, including the fact that im bad at elimination tourneys xd
I'm very ok with cube making full defensive unviable, just like I'm very ok with full on hyper offense being made unviable by Trick Room. There is not a team in the world that's reached full potential without balance between bulky pokemon and offensive pokemon, even if they only are slightly bulky or slightly offensive. I cannot think of a single full on Hyper Offense team that's been covered against everything, just like there should be a full on defensive team that's covered against everything. Outstanding teams are those that can win against as many matchups as possible, which just isn't possible with full defense or full offense. You complaining about the cube matchup for bulky teams would be like TOTEM complaining about the TR matchup stated above. The reality is that slightly balanced teams won't have huge issues with cube if played correctly.
btw why are there two f's in offense but only one f in defence jw
edit: stratos pointed out in the chat that skymin is a bitch for tr, which doesn't rly apply to my overall view, as im starting to lean to the public opinion of it being broken. Outside of skymin tho, tr rly does beat full on HO everytime.
edit 2 @ pockets post below: My post above quite clearly says that he can't build HO aka Hyper Offense. Stratos is just as if not more capable of building than myself, just not fast paced offensive teams.
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Laga, it's not true that Stratos can't build teams... he's been making a lot of teams lately, and I am impressed by his growth in teambuilding skills.
Stratos, although I agree that classical defensive teams may lose to Kyurem-B, it doesn't take much effort to make a team that has a 4+ Pokemon that can break its sub and sponge its Ice Beam + Earth Power, which is all you really need to take it down. Ofc if you restrict your choices by not even considering Scizor / Scrafty / Tyranitar / Sylveon / Slowking / Suicune b/c "they're bad" or b/c "they are too offensive on a defensive team" then you're just tripping up on your own feet. Calling off legitimate Pokemon as bad is one way to stifle the maturation of a playstyle. I do admit your sensationalism is entertaining, though.
Also CM Cress is the most trending set right now, and you have the gall to call it KyuB bait? Not to mention I already provided an example of non-CM Cress screwing with Kyu-B. Oh yea, Cress learns Moonblast.
We can use the ample of resources available to us to make a better team, or we can ban Kyurem-B if you are unwilling to adapt your defensive teams to a threat that has been around since BW2 v_v.
I also like my suggestion of 33/40% Uber support to ban Hoopa-U. However, keep it consistent, though. Don't pull the supermajority card for Hoopa-U, and then drop the threshold to 60% for Kyu-B. That would be hella shady.
Stratos, although I agree that classical defensive teams may lose to Kyurem-B, it doesn't take much effort to make a team that has a 4+ Pokemon that can break its sub and sponge its Ice Beam + Earth Power, which is all you really need to take it down. Ofc if you restrict your choices by not even considering Scizor / Scrafty / Tyranitar / Sylveon / Slowking / Suicune b/c "they're bad" or b/c "they are too offensive on a defensive team" then you're just tripping up on your own feet. Calling off legitimate Pokemon as bad is one way to stifle the maturation of a playstyle. I do admit your sensationalism is entertaining, though.
Also CM Cress is the most trending set right now, and you have the gall to call it KyuB bait? Not to mention I already provided an example of non-CM Cress screwing with Kyu-B. Oh yea, Cress learns Moonblast.
We can use the ample of resources available to us to make a better team, or we can ban Kyurem-B if you are unwilling to adapt your defensive teams to a threat that has been around since BW2 v_v.
I also like my suggestion of 33/40% Uber support to ban Hoopa-U. However, keep it consistent, though. Don't pull the supermajority card for Hoopa-U, and then drop the threshold to 60% for Kyu-B. That would be hella shady.
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Some update on test driving Hoopa-U. I've been playing around with this Hoopa set:
Shoot (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 48 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Protect
- Substitute
Initially I was Lonely nature, but I switched to Hasty to be fast enough to prevent regular Metagross from killing Hoopa as it mega evolved to Mega Metagross (and Metagross can't Protect evolve b/c Hyperspace). I coupled this with bunch of speed control support in paralysis and Tailwind, alongside Fake Out and Follow Me support to set up a Substitute. Also added SR, b/c I figured this team would force a lot of switch-ins, and breaking sashes and birds come in handy.
Substitute is great to protect Hoopa, outside of Hyper Voice and Hyperspace moves. I'm surprised at how specially bulky it is - it can actually tank some strong neutral special hits, even with little investment in bulk.
Here is a game vs Scuti where Hoopa-U really shines. Not sure if I played against a good team, b/c "MAWILE IS SHIET," but it demonstrates Hoopa-U's potential with adequate support (crit fury KO on Ludi didn't matter). I think this is a first match where Hoopa-U had a chance to throw off more than 2 hyperspace moves. You definitely want to play aggressively with Hoopa around, kinda like Deoxys-A. I will post some more replays if I have the chance.
PS: RIP PERISH TRAP
Shoot (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 48 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Protect
- Substitute
Initially I was Lonely nature, but I switched to Hasty to be fast enough to prevent regular Metagross from killing Hoopa as it mega evolved to Mega Metagross (and Metagross can't Protect evolve b/c Hyperspace). I coupled this with bunch of speed control support in paralysis and Tailwind, alongside Fake Out and Follow Me support to set up a Substitute. Also added SR, b/c I figured this team would force a lot of switch-ins, and breaking sashes and birds come in handy.
Substitute is great to protect Hoopa, outside of Hyper Voice and Hyperspace moves. I'm surprised at how specially bulky it is - it can actually tank some strong neutral special hits, even with little investment in bulk.
- 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 235-278 (76 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO... fucking impressive
Here is a game vs Scuti where Hoopa-U really shines. Not sure if I played against a good team, b/c "MAWILE IS SHIET," but it demonstrates Hoopa-U's potential with adequate support (crit fury KO on Ludi didn't matter). I think this is a first match where Hoopa-U had a chance to throw off more than 2 hyperspace moves. You definitely want to play aggressively with Hoopa around, kinda like Deoxys-A. I will post some more replays if I have the chance.
PS: RIP PERISH TRAP
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
i feel like hoopa-u might be extremely good on trick room teams
think about it:
mfw hoopa-u balances the metagame
jk its probably also busted as shit
think about it:
- u can no longer protect to stall out TR turns. In a meta without protect TR is basically 100% broken, hoopa-u kind of does that. things like bringing in skymin after a ko when theres one turn of tr left and protecting it are no longer valid moves.
- hyperspace fury apparently goes through substitute as well as protect which combined with good sdef makes hoopa-u a 100% counter to subslash which is one of tr's worst enemies
- capable of ohkoing amoonguss, aegislash, bisharp, huge damage to cress on a single set
- base 80 is slow enough that only things which minimize speed are going to contend with you
mfw hoopa-u balances the metagame
jk its probably also busted as shit
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I've used Hoopa-U a bit and played against it a bit. Haven't found it broken, and frankly not even convinced it's top tier, but it seems totally usable on a more offensive team that supports it right.
The set I've been using:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 180 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Drain Punch
- Protect
speed to outrun bisharp (and I have an extra point of creep, can definitely creep more easily) ... and I actually have a move to hit it, unlike most people lol. I don't find Hyperspace Hole all that useful as the most relevant Fighting type in the tier (that Hoopa outspeeds) is Scrafty anyway. Instead, HP Ice to hit Lando.
The set I've been using:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 180 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Drain Punch
- Protect
speed to outrun bisharp (and I have an extra point of creep, can definitely creep more easily) ... and I actually have a move to hit it, unlike most people lol. I don't find Hyperspace Hole all that useful as the most relevant Fighting type in the tier (that Hoopa outspeeds) is Scrafty anyway. Instead, HP Ice to hit Lando.
- Status