Suddenly, the statistics course I had to take is actually being useful...
Good thing I payed attention! HAHA
Good thing I payed attention! HAHA
At least you can determine what is 'broken' in a somewhat objective manner. "Enjoyable" is a very very subjective term (lol who is "we" when you are talking about enjoying something?).Do we go for a metagame wherein we attempt to unban anything that is 'not broken'? Or a metagame which we(?) find to be enjoyable and diverse?
In this case, I'm for the latter.
it's a matter of neccessity, if we were to go purely by 'objective' levels of brokenness in pokemon then we may very well end up unbanning sleep, it's probably manageable with sdef manaphy, but if ubers turns into a metagame revolving around sleeping and managing sleep then you'll be damned sure i'll argue it's an unenjoyable metagame, regardless of being 'subjective'. there's a need to bring up enjoyable vs broken because an extreme of the former can lead to a severely stagnant and shitty tier, and while some might be content in adhering to consistencies, precedents, and a strict stick to and abide by objectivity whenever possible, i argue that doing so will ruin the metagame.At least you can determine what is 'broken' in a somewhat objective manner. "Enjoyable" is a very very subjective term (lol who is "we" when you are talking about enjoying something?).
A lot of ppl don't find OU Gen II/V "enjoyable" just to mention an example. It should not be a measuring stick on whether we ban/unban things (I don't recall Blissey being banned in Gen II; hint: she was not broken).
exactly my point. I know you won't enjoy it.tl; dr
the fact of the matter is that i can't see anyone 'enjoying' a metagame with OHKO moves, and although their actual effects might seem low their potential is huge, and it is that potential that i am afraid of.
I don't see how this is too terribly complicated. If a majority of players who have proven their competence, and at least in some way dedication, to the ubers metagame, decide that they feel it is not a healthy addition, it will not be allowed. Arguing that any type of voting, or suspect, process can be objective is an irrational stance, even if you don't qualify it afterwards by stating that your potentially minority opinion should dominate the tier.exactly my point. I know you won't enjoy it.
Once again, you are being at the very least unproductive. You can't really define "broken" without defining enjoyable. The very defintion of broken, if we use the "charecteristics of an uber" post:jump: as a jumping off point, center around keeping factors that the vast majority of players don't enjoy from being present, e.g. a mon that sweeps with ease, sets up with ease, or makes the game very centric on the playstyles or strategies it and it alone enables.At least you can determine what is 'broken' in a somewhat objective manner. "Enjoyable" is a very very subjective term (lol who is "we" when you are talking about enjoying something?).
A lot of ppl don't find OU Gen II/V "enjoyable" just to mention an example. It should not be a measuring stick on whether we ban/unban things (I don't recall Blissey being banned in Gen II; hint: she was not broken).
Again, the two terms aren't as dissonant as you make them seem. The fact that this is a subjective vote, and that the factors that make a player in any metagame decide something is broken are subjective, mean this is essentially a moot point that doesn't even correctly address semantic problems.exactly my point. I know you won't enjoy it.
I find Substitute to be the biggest bane of OHKO moves: A lot of times on the first turn OHKO's tend to miss, letting the person get their Sub up. Then, while they're still attempting to OHKO you, you get a free turn of set-up, like Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Spore, you name it. Then the OHKO user is back on their heels. It's probably one of the biggest reasons I stopped using them for the most part (as well as the increased attack scores in D/P/Pt and up)The only way to block OHKO moves is with sturdy, which basically means you switch a steel with 70/70 or 70/60 Special defenses into a pokemon with 150 Spatk that is, at the very least, running an attack with 180 power that has a 30% chance to burn.
I find it to be the bane of sleep as well. If we reintroduced sleep into the metagame, sweepers with substitutes and lum berries, as with the postulated lum SubDD mence would become much more popular. I'd also like to point out that i didn't mention safeguard, magic coat, or heal bell/aromatherapy. The last option is great for my argument, too-you can wipe away all that sleep with just one move. The other two are... not particularly viable; Safeguard is occasionally used on wobbuffett, and magic coat on leads.I find Substitute to be the biggest bane of OHKO moves: A lot of times on the first turn OHKO's tend to miss, letting the person get their Sub up. Then, while they're still attempting to OHKO you, you get a free turn of set-up, like Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Spore, you name it. Then the OHKO user is back on their heels. It's probably one of the biggest reasons I stopped using them for the most part (as well as the increased attack scores in D/P/Pt and up)
-James
Personally, I find evasion moves too much the roll of the dice: It has cost me more matches than it has won me (by not a small margin either) and don't understand why it's even in place (even if it's stupid). I think there should be more perfect accuracy moves with better accuracy to deal with the problem however: Aura Sphere with 80 power as the strongest move isn't exactly a surefire counter.Face it, anything GF has ever made "can" be adapted to. The main breaking points usually come when people start overpreparing to a point that it seriously hurts their team against any other team, or when people just start fighting fire with fire. The only other breaking point is generally "Stupid luck BS", such as the evasion clause, which comes when people are tired of so many games hinging on dice rolls and the RNG.
I'd rather do a test about probability (because this is what this test is on, granted, it's about Pokemon, but a good 80% of it is just about probability, like any test you do at school) than playing other 50 matches on any given ladder hoping I don't get haxed by some skillful trainer and his very well trained Pokemon, it takes a lot less time, and it saves me anger and frustration, and it helps me revising stuff too!A formal Pokemon exam? Jesus Christ... To anyone seriously filling this out, stop for a minute and please re-evaluate your life.
Locoghul merely points out that this is POPPY's definition. Not Smogon's, but POPPY'S. The fact that you happen to agree with it doesn't mean that it is "aligned with Smogon's spirit of a competitive game than yours." Someone could easily argue that Stall is a terribly mundane playstyle that goes against the spirit of competitive battling VERY EASILY. I'd like to see the large scale study you did on smogon to find that "most of us" prefer hazards and phazing wars over hyper offense battles, if you can consider that "diversity". I think that many dislike the stall playstyle, and would like to see more diversity in high stakes hyper offense battles than the same boring sleep talk roar/dtail giratina. (Voting because you want/don't want stall to die is silly because Stall will remain regardless.)and neither will most of us.
Poppy's definition of an enjoyable metagame is one that is diverse and balanced. OHKO moves does not bring anymore diversity, but rather restricts the metagame further to an extent that its centralization force is undesirable to the metagame. Poppy's (and most of our) enjoyable metagame is far more aligned with Smogon's spirit of a competitive game than yours.
I respectfully disagree. Scald and Thunder aren't moves that ONLY burn or paralyze with 30% chance, but have obscene BP with STAB, and usually are used in the rain. They're used to DAMAGE more than spread status for the most part.I actually think OHKO moves are broken. We're talking about a 30% chance to OHKO here. No, not a Scald burn or Thunder paralysis, which doesn't spell immediate doom. Immediate OHKO. An instant-kill on one crucial mon or two is just game-changing. We have no place for OHKO in a healthy metagame.