New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5

[Banryu]

Salamence
(Bulky Mence 2)
Toxic
Fly
Earthquake
Roost
Leftovers
Intimidate
Brave
252 Hp/ 252 Atk/ 4 def

Concept toxic opponent fly up in the air and stall.
If Switch, Use Earthquake to cover common switches. Most counters to this set will be faster than Salamence so when it is the second turn of fly they will go first then u can use fly and then do good damage and switch out. Also while toxic stalling in the air u will receive Leftovers. Lastly one can roost when u switch in when they plan on sending in their counter. For this set to work effectively u will want a pokemon like Flygon to come in and outspeed ur common counters which will usually be Steel, and Electric which Flygon can easily counter. Also to counter possible slow ice counters u will want to have a scizor that can easily revenge kill with bullet punch or set up a Swords Dance after ur Salamence has passed on.



Please comment on what u think could make this better. Please though do not give me comments that would make this build identical to the original bulky salamence build.

This needs Fire Blast AND Earthquake together. With just EQ, it's completely walled by Bronzor and Skarmory, and with Fire Blast, it's walled by Heatran.

...and if that's the original Bulky-Mence (I haven't checked it) then tough beans. :0 but it can't be effective unless it can beat things that resist Toxic. Generally, Flygon is a lot better at this.

 

[blasphemy1]

Rest-Talk :/

. . . very :/

Also a rest talker cannot be depended on to take down roserade before it sets up spikes/toxic spikes. Even less dependable if you are using Fire Blast Heatran.

It can't set up Spikes if it has Sleep Powder (illegal egg combo), and most of my grounded Pokemon are steel-types, or I have something like a Roserade or Tentacruel of my own.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Oh, didn't know it was an illegal combo. In any case Blastoise itself isn't going to like T-spikes, nor will TTar (who I do enjoy using).

edit:

So, I just took out this guy for a first run:

Modest
31 / 31 / 31 / 30 / 31 / 31
Hidden Power Electric 70
Aqua Jet

On Wifi, and I have to say it was nuts. First he Hydro Pump'd a Metagross lead for 70% while it set up rocks.

Then I rapid spin'd as he switched out to Breloom.

Then Breloom spored me, while Lum Berry woke me up and Ice beam'd the Breloom to death.

If that weren't enough, I later let metagross come back in and set up SR so I could switch in and set up a bunch of spikes with Skarmory, who eventually dragged out a scarfran.

I brought blastoise back in, rapid spinned as it kept blasting me, and then finished off the weakened heatran with an Aqua Jet.

I then proceeded to rape face with new mixmence, who despite being a mid-early wall breaker got to survive until late game and just smack stuff around because Blastoise had been doing so much of the labor early game. Didn't even need to bring in Flygon to clean up.

. . . wow, good stuff.

 

[bearsfan092]

I can also attest to that Blastoise's effectiveness on Shoddy as it does a number on a lot of the frailer leads, and as ChouToshio states, it does a lovely amount of damage on neutral bulky leads. As always, watch out for something like ScarfUxie or ScarfRachi who can trick your lead. Make sure you have a good special wall for Anti-Lead Starmies as well, but a slow anti-lead vs. a fast anti-lead generally is not a good situation (Machamp usually does okay against most things) anyway and it would be foolish to stay in.

I'd seriously consider this as a standard set, but maybe I'm just high on the novelty of it all.

 

[Azure Demon]

Lapras

set name: Mixed attacking lapras (ou)

naughty~water absorb
evd: 164atk/94spatk/252speed
move set #1: dragon dance, waterfall, ice beam, thunderbolt/hp grass 70
reccomended items: Life orb

set description:

This is an OU mixed lapras this ev spread sits lapras at 271 attack, 229 spatk, 219 speed this guy is a monster with one dragon dance his attack is 407 and speed hits 329 meaning it's out speeding base 100 speed pokemon by 1 point meaning you out speed most of the OU metagame and with life orb this thing wrecks. Waterfall is here for primary form of attack it rips through every thing. a waterfall dragon dance+life orb to a metagross with 252 hp and 12 def aka( cb metagross set) does 50% or to the agiligross set it does 47%-55%. even duskinor doesn't like to fight this guy sub punch duskinor takes 50%-60% from the very same waterfall. Now onto his special attacks this big guy ohkos the standard gyarados with t-bolt doing 93%-110% (bulky gyarados set) and every mence set is hit for over 100% damage by ice beam and after 1 dd
if you decide to switch out t-bolt for hp grass it is fine also: hp grass does 82% max damage to lead pert set

so let me know what you think

__________________

 

[Chillarmy]

Lapras

set name: Mixed attacking lapras (ou)

naughty~water absorb
evd: 164atk/94spatk/252speed
move set #1: dragon dance, waterfall, ice beam, thunderbolt/hp grass 70
reccomended items: Life orb

so let me know what you think

I hate shooting down sets, but this is an exception. Using Lapras in OU is a horrible idea, and running a mixed dancer set is an even worse idea =/. First off, what... exactly will Lapras set up on? Just about everything in OU either fears nothing from it, or outspeeds and kills it - choiced attackers are out of the mix too since the only thing that won't cripple Lapras is a Pursuit from ScarfTar. Secondly, Water/Ice typing is horrible for OU. No, really, it doesn't have any decent resistances to set up on and the SR weakness only makes it shittier; and don't say, "it can set up with Water Absorb", because most of the Pokemon that toss around Water STAB can either outspeed and OHKO Lapras with another common attack, pHaze it, cripple it, or just set up alongside it. Finally, this is is sloooooowwwwwwwwww, hitting only 328 after a boost. Infernape, Salamence, Jirachi, Gengar, ScarfTar, Starmie, Jolteon, and the lot can still revenge it pretty easily, and I highly doubt that Lapras will get a second boost in before dying. This is only made worse by the fact that this set is extremely weak and can only be remotely threatening with 3 layers of Spikes, 2 layers of TS, Stealth Rock, and sandstorm on the field. Horrible typing, low speed, and offensive capabilities combined with an SR weakness don't make for a decent Dragon Dancer in OU. Hell, I can see Whiscash pulling off a mixed DD set in OU better .-.

I'm sorry, but this set doesn't have much potential, or any at all, in this meta. Nice attempt, though ^_^

Also:

Modest
31 / 31 / 31 / 30 / 31 / 31
Hidden Power Electric 70
Aqua Jet

Max SAtk with enough Speed to outpace LeadGross + Atk EVs to pump up the power of Aqua jet I assume?

 

[Efemera]

That Lapras set could be run more effectively by Kingdra, who has better all around stats except HP, much more speed, better typing, and the ability to use Rain Dance as an alternative to Dragon Dance.

A Mixed Dragon Dance set doesn't seem like a very good idea, though. Once you get a chance to DD, it's usually better just to spam Waterfall, and Lapras doesn't even get a good physical Ice STAB to use.

 

[lacerta]

Lapras

set name: Mixed attacking lapras (ou)

naughty~water absorb
evd: 164atk/94spatk/252speed
move set #1: dragon dance, waterfall, ice beam, thunderbolt/hp grass 70
reccomended items: Life orb

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but this is just one of the most awkward sets I've ever seen. The standard Jolly DD Lapras is a questionable set in itself, neglecting Lapras' bulk and movepool in favour of power and speed, neither of which Lapras really has...but using a mixed set is really stretching its capabilities, as it now lacks power and bulk thanks to split EVs and the -SpD nature.
Also, I think you might have miscalculated the speed; with a Naughty nature it reaches only 318 speed, which falls short of +natured base 100s. It would need a Naïve nature to outspeed them, which would be even more awkward.

I think people just have a strange attraction to the words "Dragon Dance", because Curse Lapras is almost always better, and a bulky mixed Curse set is actually viable, playing to Lapras' strong points rather than forcing it onto its tiptoes. A Pokemon like Dragonite or even something bizarre like Mixed Gyarados would run this set a lot more effectively.

very curious about the EVs, though; got any calcs for this? I'm especially interested in seeing how the defensive EVs let it take hits...

Looking at it now, I don't think the EV-spread was very well thought-out, sorry. Seeing as Weavile isn't bulky enough to make unbreakable substitutes on neutral attacks, the only hits it really needs to take are the ones that allow it to set up a substitute. So a better spread would be 160HP/104Def/60SpD/184Spe...this gives it the same Speed and HP benefits, whilst allowing it to always take under 25% from a CBtar Pursuit, and under 25% from a ScarfGar Shadow Ball most of the time - so if either should decide to stay in, Weavile can still set up unhindered.

Alternatively you could just go with 32HP/252Atk/40SpD/184Spe, since CBtar and ScarfGar have become kind of rare, and it may not be worth investing heavily in defense...

 

[Myrmidon]

70/65/85 seems very frail to me in the sense of defensive stats, doubly so on something with Weavile's typing.

I'm still very curious as to how either of those EV spreads would be able to take hits (and deal, in the case of the 0Atk spread). and what benefits the defensive EVs would have over a 252/252 spread, or merely EVing for lefties and maxing Atk/Speed.

 

[Azure Demon]

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but this is just one of the most awkward sets I've ever seen. The standard Jolly DD Lapras is a questionable set in itself, neglecting Lapras' bulk and movepool in favour of power and speed, neither of which Lapras really has...but using a mixed set is really stretching its capabilities, as it now lacks power and bulk thanks to split EVs and the -SpD nature.
Also, I think you might have miscalculated the speed; with a Naughty nature it reaches only 318 speed, which falls short of +natured base 100s. It would need a Naïve nature to outspeed them, which would be even more awkward.

I think people just have a strange attraction to the words "Dragon Dance", because Curse Lapras is almost always better, and a bulky mixed Curse set is actually viable, playing to Lapras' strong points rather than forcing it onto its tiptoes. A Pokemon like Dragonite or even something bizarre like Mixed Gyarados would run this set a lot more effectively.


Looking at it now, I don't think the EV-spread was very well thought-out, sorry. Seeing as Weavile isn't bulky enough to make unbreakable substitutes on neutral attacks, the only hits it really needs to take are the ones that allow it to set up a substitute. So a better spread would be 160HP/104Def/60SpD/184Spe...this gives it the same Speed and HP benefits, whilst allowing it to always take under 25% from a CBtar Pursuit, and under 25% from a ScarfGar Shadow Ball most of the time - so if either should decide to stay in, Weavile can still set up unhindered.

Alternatively you could just go with 32HP/252Atk/40SpD/184Spe, since CBtar and ScarfGar have become kind of rare, and it may not be worth investing heavily in defense...

no I actually have a custom curse set also the dragon dance one has just been giving me better results I am easily able to get up two dragon dances because I run a dual screen team and even if lapras takes an SE hit its decent defences and its massive hp base allow it to keep on ticking. But I'll post the curse set i made if that interest people more I didn't want to post it quite yet because i was still waging the ice beam, ice shard, or avalanche debate in my mind but i guess I'll post them all since they are all viable and it doesn't fall short of base 100 speed it ties with them but i'm sorry for the miscalculation

 

[UltiMario]

But the question is, why run Lapras when you could run say, BulkyGyara who destroys EVERYTHING after 2 DDs and gets Lefties recovery.

 

[Lady Umbreon]

I've been experimenting with a Counter/Mirror Coat Swampert. I'm pleased with the results (though I've only used him in Plat's Battle Tower).

Pokemon Name: Swampert
Moveset Name: Swampuffet

Move 1: Counter
Move 2: Mirror Coat
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Protect

Item: Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Careful (-SpA, +SpD)
EVs: 252 HP/ 172 Def/ 84 SpD

Decided to keep the defenses roughly equal, figuring I could tweak them later. Swampert leads and I have a Scizor (Bullet Punch, X-Scissor, Swords Dance, Roost) and Togekiss (Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Nasty Plot, Roost) for back-up. My biggest problems are Water-types, especially Suicune. I'm wondering if I should trade Togekiss for something that resists Water.

 

[Ace Emerald]

But the question is, why run Lapras when you could run say, BulkyGyara who destroys EVERYTHING after 2 DDs and gets Lefties recovery.

I haven't run any calcs, but gyaras quad weakness could be a problem even with DS factored in. Lapras might be able to take a SE attack better because of no quad weakness. Again, I haven't run calcs or tried the set, so I could be wrong.

 

[Away]

I haven't run any calcs, but gyaras quad weakness could be a problem even with DS factored in. Lapras might be able to take a SE attack better because of no quad weakness. Again, I haven't run calcs or tried the set, so I could be wrong.

I don't think having that weakness is too big of a problem as it's likely Lapras wouldn't be setting up on an electric-typed pokemon anyway. And likewise, neither should Gyarados. After two Dragon Dances, which is required to give Lapras any sweeping potential at all, nothing outside of Choice Scarfed pokemon will outspeed anyway. Jolteon runs LO/CSpecs so... I just don't see much use for Lapras.

On the other hand... Whiscash has useful resistances and fantastic dual stabs...

 

[lacerta]

no I actually have a custom curse set also the dragon dance one has just been giving me better results I am easily able to get up two dragon dances because I run a dual screen team and even if lapras takes an SE hit its decent defences and its massive hp base allow it to keep on ticking. But I'll post the curse set i made if that interest people more I didn't want to post it quite yet because i was still waging the ice beam, ice shard, or avalanche debate in my mind but i guess I'll post them all since they are all viable and it doesn't fall short of base 100 speed it ties with them but i'm sorry for the miscalculation

I'm pretty sure it falls short...+nature base 100s reach 328 speed, whilst Lapras only reaches 318. Umm...of those three I'd personally choose Ice Shard; STAB priority is something all Cursers would love...but it's up to you.

70/65/85 seems very frail to me in the sense of defensive stats, doubly so on something with Weavile's typing.

I'm still very curious as to how either of those EV spreads would be able to take hits (and deal, in the case of the 0Atk spread). and what benefits the defensive EVs would have over a 252/252 spread, or merely EVing for lefties and maxing Atk/Speed.

It is quite frail, you're right...I think the 0Atk spread was definitely a bad idea, as it doesn't help Weavile much at all. The second spread helps with the two specific Pokemon and moves I mentioned, but even that's of really limited use...the third spread is probably the best; it does EV for Leftovers, to reach a number necessary for five consecutive substitutes, and reaches the maximum speed that's useful in OU - tying with Swellow and outspeeding Alakazam aren't really big issues. Attack is also maxed, and the remaining EVs are put in SpD so as not to disrupt the HP number, although they could be placed Speed if like, Sceptile were to become more popular or something.

But yeh, sorry for the first two spreads. I should probably edit the original post...and thanks for getting me to think about it.

 

[Ace Emerald]

I don't think having that weakness is too big of a problem as it's likely Lapras wouldn't be setting up on an electric-typed pokemon anyway. And likewise, neither should Gyarados. After two Dragon Dances, which is required to give Lapras any sweeping potential at all, nothing outside of Choice Scarfed pokemon will outspeed anyway. Jolteon runs LO/CSpecs so... I just don't see much use for Lapras.

On the other hand... Whiscash has useful resistances and fantastic dual stabs...

I ment gyara/lapras switching in on something, DD on the switch, then tank a hit a DD again. Gyara would fall more easily to a switch then lapras. All your points are valid though, I don't know how well the set would actually work. It could easily be outclassed for pokemon that DD once, but it might be able to do better at doing two as other DD pokes have quad weaks (key word: might) I haven't looked at other pokes who might be able to do it better, and I need to do some calcs. I'm not saying the set will outclass everything, all points against it were valid.

Edit: it just hit me, and it probably should have been apparent from the start. Kingdra would probably outclass this lapras. No quad weak, only one weakness period, decent defences espescially under the DS this has been operating under. Resist to the most common proirity. I'm pretty sure someone mentioned kingdra a few posts up, I just glanced over it and didn't think about it. Sorry about that.

 

[Azure Demon]

Yeah, honestly lapras is outlassed by kingdra but, not to the point where it shouldn't be used lapras has some multiple advantages as being able to function in and out of tr, also priority makes a huge impact, and water absorb is a bonus even though kingdra resist it 4x. Not to mention it's a huge suprise you can dragon dance and bait in plysical walls and then destroy them (main one comming to mind is skarm)

 

[Shizzle]

Lapras

set name: Mixed attacking lapras (ou)

naughty~water absorb
evd: 164atk/94spatk/252speed
move set #1: dragon dance, waterfall, ice beam, thunderbolt/hp grass 70
reccomended items: Life orb

set description:

This is an OU mixed lapras this ev spread sits lapras at 271 attack, 229 spatk, 219 speed this guy is a monster with one dragon dance his attack is 407 and speed hits 329 meaning it's out speeding base 100 speed pokemon by 1 point meaning you out speed most of the OU metagame and with life orb this thing wrecks. Waterfall is here for primary form of attack it rips through every thing. a waterfall dragon dance+life orb to a metagross with 252 hp and 12 def aka( cb metagross set) does 50% or to the agiligross set it does 47%-55%. even duskinor doesn't like to fight this guy sub punch duskinor takes 50%-60% from the very same waterfall. Now onto his special attacks this big guy ohkos the standard gyarados with t-bolt doing 93%-110% (bulky gyarados set) and every mence set is hit for over 100% damage by ice beam and after 1 dd
if you decide to switch out t-bolt for hp grass it is fine also: hp grass does 82% max damage to lead pert set

so let me know what you think

__________________

Nope, completely 100% outclassed by Gyarados. 85 Atk / 85 SpA isn't anywhere good for an OU mixed Sweeper, and a pure physical set would work better. Mixed would mean that it would struggle to reach many OHKOs where Gyarados would. Also the use of Dragon Dance and one Physical move [the other 2 being special] is questionable. Gyarados as more power, and is faster, while retaining great bulk, and arguably better typing. The one thing that Lapras can do better than Gyarados as far as offensive sets go, is use Curse.

I mean so what if you are reaching 329 Spe after a Dragon Dance, Gyarados reaches 363, outspeeding 252 Spe (+Spe) 115s, while having much more attack. It also has a much better movepool, including great moves such as Stone Edge/EQ/Bounce, which can allow it to beat things like CBGross.

Your damage calculation for Dusknoir is quite literally the stupidest thing I have EVER seen. Why the fuck are you:
a)comparing it to Dusknoir, and not something like Forreteress or Swampert, something more used.
b)against an offensive Dusknoir...
c)SubPunch Dusknoir sets up sub and OHKOs you anyway...

The real thing to do if you were calculating against Dusknoir, would be to use the "Tank" set.
Lapras +1 (+Atk) 164 Atk LO vs. Dusknoir (+Def) 252 HP / 228 Def = (39.12% - 46.26%)
Not even a 2HKO, not to mention that he can Will o Wisp back, basiclly ruining you completely

EDIT: You don't even OHKO Skarmory
Lapras (Neutral) 92 SpA LO vs Skarmory (Neutral) 252 HP / 0 SpD = (68.86% - 81.44%)

 

[Ace Emerald]

Yeah, honestly lapras is outlassed by kingdra but, not to the point where it shouldn't be used lapras has some multiple advantages as being able to function in and out of tr, also priority makes a huge impact, and water absorb is a bonus even though kingdra resist it 4x. Not to mention it's a huge suprise you can dragon dance and bait in plysical walls and then destroy them (main one comming to mind is skarm)

Yeah I'm sure lapras can do somethings that kingdra can't, but dragon dancing isn't one of them. I might try to put together a bulky kingdra drangon dancer. Might be outclassed by gyara, but kingdra has more resists.

 

[deluge]

I like these threads even though most of the sets will probably not be the Pokemon's best option.
In the same spriit, I had this set I was toying with and started posting but didn't submit.
In competitive 6x6 singles, it would probably work best in the late game after you've scouted your opponent well.

Disabling Dancer
Adamant Kingdra@Leftovers (Lum)
120 HP/ 252 Atk/ 140 Spe
Edit: 120 HP/ 160 Atk/ 232 Spe

~Dragon Dance
~Outrage
~Substitute
~Disable

The basic idea is to use Substitute and Disable to give Kingdra multiple opportunities to DD before unleashing boosted Outrages.
Opponents that will be slower than Kindra after another DD allow him to DD behind the sub, disabling any dangerous move used to break it on the following turn while he is exposed.
When facing opponents that still outpace him after another DD, Kingdra will need to disable the move used to break the sub on the turn it is broken.
This leaves the apparent opportunity for an opponent wise to the set to use the 'wrong' move so that the most effective move is not disabled.
However, the only Pokemon at a higher speed tier than +1 Kingdra will be Choiced (or Ninjask) and they'll obviously have to commit to a move and be forced to switch or struggle.

The HP EVs hit a leftovers number (I think) while allowing Kingdra's sub to survive Scarf Jirachi/Flygon U-turns.
Waterfall is an option but Outrage's few resists and higher base power is difficult to pass up despite the negative side effects.
With Outrage, Lum could be used because confusion damage can kill you once a few boosts have been accrued and subs made.

Downsides:
1) The mono attack is less than ideal but Dragon and Water are the pick of the bunch and Kingdra gets STAB moves of both types.
2) The 80% accurate Disable will be probably let Kingdra down sometimes.
3) Steels and phazers (Skarmory!)

 

[Ace Emerald]

I like these threads even though most of the sets will probably not be the Pokemon's best option.
In the same spriit, I had this set I was toying with and started posting but didn't submit.
In competitive 6x6 singles, it would probably work best in the late game after you've scouted your opponent well.

Disabling Dancer
Adamant Kingdra@Leftovers (Lum)
120 HP/ 252 Atk/ 140 Spe

~Dragon Dance
~Outrage
~Substitute
~Disable

The basic idea is to use Substitute and Disable to give Kingdra multiple opportunities to DD before unleashing boosted Outrages.
Opponents that will be slower than Kindra after another DD allow him to DD behind the sub, disabling any dangerous move used to break it on the following turn while he is exposed.
When facing opponents that still outpace him after another DD, Kingdra will need to disable the move used to break the sub on the turn it is broken.
This leaves the apparent opportunity for an opponent wise to the set to use the 'wrong' move so that the most effective move is not disabled.
However, the only Pokemon at a higher speed tier than +1 Kingdra will be Choiced (or Ninjask) and they'll obviously have to commit to a move and be forced to switch or struggle.

The HP EVs hit a leftovers number (I think) while allowing Kingdra's sub to survive Scarf Jirachi/Flygon U-turns.
Waterfall is an option but Outrage's few resists and higher base power is difficult to pass up despite the negative side effects.
With Outrage, Lum could be used because confusion damage can kill you once a few boosts have been accrued and subs made.

Downsides:
1) The mono attack is less than ideal but Dragon and Water are the pick of the bunch and Kingdra gets STAB moves of both types.
2) The 80% accurate Disable will be probably let Kingdra down sometimes.
3) Steels and phazers (Skarmory!)

I would waterfall over outrage so you dont have to lock into a move.

 

[Chap_in_Da_Hood]

Starmie
Wall
Camouflage
Toxic
Recover
Surf/ Hydro Pump
Leftovers
Natural Cure
Modest/Timid
252 Hp/ 100 Def/ 60 SpA/ 68 SpD/ 28 Spe

First turn switch into poke obviously going to switch do to common belief tht starmie will be scarfed, so use this switch to set up camouflage. Now u probably hav the incoming pokemon fooled and u can set up toxic or do some damage with surf. Now when Starmie's Hp is lowered he can then just recover it back. I use surf cause it does neutral damage to most steel types.

Wasn't to sure on what nature and ev to give to this wall form of the poke.

 

[Shizzle]

@Kingdra set
I think it would work very well in tandem with a dedicated Steel Killer, namely Magnezone. I should also mention that Jolteon and Aerodactyl [and that whole speed tier] still outspeed you. You would want to run 144 Spe EVs anyway to outrun positive base 115s.

I actually have a really cool story about the move Disable.

Hide

I was playing my friend on shoddy in a "random battle" meaning that all pokemon/items/moves are random. I had a Murkrow with Protect/Disable/Pursuit, needless to say it did really well.

The big downside? Disable has 80 accuracy. Pathetic in any book for such a move, and is why Waterfall or Yawn works better in that spot. Its a good try to make a set though, just the accuracy issue makes Yawn/Waterfall much better options.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Obviously on the Kingdra moveset:

Yawn might actually force switches, and with a Spiker like Forretress, you could force a few switches, instead of Disable, which though certainly
"creative", might not be as useful as yawn.

Waterfall might also be better, though if you keep your Substitute intact for 3 turns(not exactly viable, unless your opponent is dumb) , you wont get confused.

 

[deluge]

I would waterfall over outrage so you dont have to lock into a move.

Yeah, that's a good point too.
You have more flexibility to attack from behind the sub with Waterfall.
I was disappointed with some of the damage output from Waterfall and hated Vaporeon (who you can set up on but can't hit) but it is a valid option.