Just unban it. Like any random Lando-T OHKOs it. Slowbro even tanks it's +2 Thunder Punch, and it can future sight/hydro pump/scald after chip. 75% people think it should be suspect tested. Please unban thank you
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 15: Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger
- Thread starter Byleth
- Start date
- Status
The more I play with and against this thing the more I'm convinced it needs to stay banned.
It finds easy set up opportunities on common mons like ferro, heatran, weavile, mawile, choice locked kart, scizor, anything that clicks draco meteor, i could go on.
Thanks to its 100 base speed and speed boosts most scarfers are a no go even if you predict right and switch in on sd. The few scarfers who can outspeed it at +1 like gren and kart usually get one shot and can't one shot back (does scarf gren even carry a water move?)
Priority moves are an obvious work around, but it resists ice shard, sucker punch, bullet punch and grassy glide, so killing it with a priority move means using water shuriken or aqua jet but there are several problems with this.
1. Most water priority users can't switch in, meaning you often have to sack something first.
2. Water shuriken (by far the most common water priority move) is super inconsistent and needs 4 hits to ohko
3. Tapu Lele completely invalidates this as a strategy
4. It can just switch out
So as other people have been saying offersive counterplay is very limited.
As for the defensive counterplay...
Bulky waters all die to thunder punch, maybe while getting some chip with scald, but something you sack for chip isn't a counter. And fini doesn't even do that since m-blaziken can just t-punch on the switch in, then switch out and kill it next time it comes in.
Bulky Dragonite, rocky helmet lando, hippowdon and the latis actually pretty decent counters, but the latis can be pursuit trapped or killed by knock off, hippo needs to be at exactly 100% health, and Lando is often chipped as fast if not faster than it chips m-blaziken since there's no life orb to worry about. And of course this all assumes this is actually the sd set and not one of the special sets that can blow past most of these with ease.
I won't say that Mega Blaziken has no counters or checks, it can only run 4 moves at a time after all but the vast majority of them are inconsistant at best, and worthless at worst (the bulky waters are literally set-up fodder half the time) but just because a mon has some shaky checks and counters doesn't mean it isn't ban worthy.
Every match I play with or against it, I'm reminded of Magearna, Cinderace or even Zacian. Watching so called "counters" get sacked or set up on, scarfers outsped, and priority moves just not doing quite enough damage. Sure you could cripple Cinderace with flame body as it u-turns or crit the Mag if it clicks calm mind one too many times, but more often than not these mons got more than their fair share of kills, and Mega Blaziken is the same.
It finds easy set up opportunities on common mons like ferro, heatran, weavile, mawile, choice locked kart, scizor, anything that clicks draco meteor, i could go on.
Thanks to its 100 base speed and speed boosts most scarfers are a no go even if you predict right and switch in on sd. The few scarfers who can outspeed it at +1 like gren and kart usually get one shot and can't one shot back (does scarf gren even carry a water move?)
Priority moves are an obvious work around, but it resists ice shard, sucker punch, bullet punch and grassy glide, so killing it with a priority move means using water shuriken or aqua jet but there are several problems with this.
1. Most water priority users can't switch in, meaning you often have to sack something first.
2. Water shuriken (by far the most common water priority move) is super inconsistent and needs 4 hits to ohko
3. Tapu Lele completely invalidates this as a strategy
4. It can just switch out
So as other people have been saying offersive counterplay is very limited.
As for the defensive counterplay...
Bulky waters all die to thunder punch, maybe while getting some chip with scald, but something you sack for chip isn't a counter. And fini doesn't even do that since m-blaziken can just t-punch on the switch in, then switch out and kill it next time it comes in.
Bulky Dragonite, rocky helmet lando, hippowdon and the latis actually pretty decent counters, but the latis can be pursuit trapped or killed by knock off, hippo needs to be at exactly 100% health, and Lando is often chipped as fast if not faster than it chips m-blaziken since there's no life orb to worry about. And of course this all assumes this is actually the sd set and not one of the special sets that can blow past most of these with ease.
I won't say that Mega Blaziken has no counters or checks, it can only run 4 moves at a time after all but the vast majority of them are inconsistant at best, and worthless at worst (the bulky waters are literally set-up fodder half the time) but just because a mon has some shaky checks and counters doesn't mean it isn't ban worthy.
Every match I play with or against it, I'm reminded of Magearna, Cinderace or even Zacian. Watching so called "counters" get sacked or set up on, scarfers outsped, and priority moves just not doing quite enough damage. Sure you could cripple Cinderace with flame body as it u-turns or crit the Mag if it clicks calm mind one too many times, but more often than not these mons got more than their fair share of kills, and Mega Blaziken is the same.
Last edited:
Scarf Latios is a highly questionable pokemon to be running. Hoping the mon that is being suspected doesn't carry specific moves so the mons you bring actually check it, is more of a pro ban argument than anything. Toxapex is a fine answer most of the time but has to avoid being around 85% when it comes in because if rocks are up it drops to +2 tpunch. Greninja is okay... But players may feel pressured to click shuriken to avoid giving it any chances which is very exploitable as the blaze user can pivot to a resist.
+1 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 373-439 (116.9 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
scarf lando cannot counter or even check jolly and if it loses its scarf to a knock off during the game from a teammate it cannot check mega Blaziken no matter what set the chicken runs.
No one would switch it into Rillaboom?? Not that it matters since Rilla is very mediocre to bad in this meta. And how a mon does in the tier above does not matter when talking about banning/unbanning a mon.
Any random LandoT ohkos it? LandoT dies to +1 flare blitz. Slowbro is pursuit weak and dies to +2 thunder punch if it is around 75% (which happens with pursuit support). 75% percent of players think it should be suspect tested. They want to test to see if it would be healthy (lol) for the tier. You didn't really give actual unban reasons.
A bit misleading there, only offensive variants die to +1 blitz from ful health, defensive variants still takes a lot from flare blitz, but survives even after stealth rock.
True. Should have specified offensive LandoT. Although now that I think of it, due to how often defensive lando switches in to absorb hits, it is still likely to fall into range of +1 flare blitz. But yeah. Point taken.
aight heres my two cents
Blaziken is checked pretty decently by common lando + fini cores on bulky offense, and by whatever bulky water you are using on fat(slowbro, pex). I dont believe that blaziken is broken on its own, it can be dealt with pretty reasonably, just like say mega gyarados. However, I think blaziken is an absurdly effective enabler for other offensive threats like weavile or greninja. Blaziken finds it incredibly easy to force damage onto its checks, allowing its teammates to break through effectively. I think a mega blaz bulky offense team with teammates like weavile and offensive zapdos, is incredibly effective atm, with good matchups vs pretty much every playstyle. Healing wish support from teammates like jirachi is a great way to improve blaziken's longevity, and give it another go at running through the opponent's team, using the damage it has done earlier. So I think blaziken isnt broken on its own, but its a great enabler and team player, and the blaziken + weavile combo is just absurd, thus I will probably be voting BAN, although I am open to have my opinion changed.
Blaziken is checked pretty decently by common lando + fini cores on bulky offense, and by whatever bulky water you are using on fat(slowbro, pex). I dont believe that blaziken is broken on its own, it can be dealt with pretty reasonably, just like say mega gyarados. However, I think blaziken is an absurdly effective enabler for other offensive threats like weavile or greninja. Blaziken finds it incredibly easy to force damage onto its checks, allowing its teammates to break through effectively. I think a mega blaz bulky offense team with teammates like weavile and offensive zapdos, is incredibly effective atm, with good matchups vs pretty much every playstyle. Healing wish support from teammates like jirachi is a great way to improve blaziken's longevity, and give it another go at running through the opponent's team, using the damage it has done earlier. So I think blaziken isnt broken on its own, but its a great enabler and team player, and the blaziken + weavile combo is just absurd, thus I will probably be voting BAN, although I am open to have my opinion changed.
Like what people are saying, every single pokemon will have the same result. 'They Can Just Switch' Wtf is that? Every single pokemon can switch. Y'all could go on banning every single OU pokemon because it can have something else in back to switch. That's playing isn't it?
You are not getting the point. The "you can just switch" argument is much much stronger with blaziken due to how little offensive counterplay there is to it, as its very easy to switch into the moves it forces. Like ok u can go lando, but so many mons in the tier can take defensive landos on very well, or tapu fini, toxapex and all of that. It even forces weak priorities to come out of gren and shifu, which means easy switchins and continued offensive pressure.
Meanwhile lets take into consideration something like a lele, which lets in so many threatening mons to a bunch of the tier, like letting weavile click either knock, axel or pursuit, or lop just clicking buttons, same can be said about kyurem, and many, many other offensive powerhouses of the tier, while putting similar amounts of pressure on a blaziken that is already in is nigh impossible.
I fell in love with Mega-Blaziken after using it, and honestly it should be banned, First of all it makes LeLe too OP like i literally just sweep teams with it because by the time my LeLe comes in their Steel types are already chipped or dead, Blissey and Chansey just get destroyed by the KFC not to even mention the fantastic support PsyTerrain gives to AngryBird. Now if you think you have counters like Lando, Dragonite, Hippowdon, and TheLatis well think again cause Weavile exists which is just the perfect counter for them plus Weavile and HotWings here create a devastating offensive presence, And oh i didn't forget about Toxapex well maybe i did beacuse the thing gets annihilated by a +2 Tpunch which you can easily do by scaring out mons like Blissey, Corv or Ferro and yes if it is a Full Def spread it does live it but if that means that Toxapex won't be a problem then I'm totally okey with my KFC dying even Sableye can't do anything to this AngryBird
TL;DR M-Blaziken isn't the real problem it gets checked by cores or just mons that don't let it setup, No the problem with KFC is that it enables mons like LeLe and Weavile or any mon that hates Steel Types to be just Flat Out broken so i think that this enough for me to vote Banned
=
TL;DR M-Blaziken isn't the real problem it gets checked by cores or just mons that don't let it setup, No the problem with KFC is that it enables mons like LeLe and Weavile or any mon that hates Steel Types to be just Flat Out broken so i think that this enough for me to vote Banned
Last edited:
Been spamming MBlaze. Not that I’m good (I’m actually ass), but I noticed its synergies with Lele and have been running it on HO as a more viable Xard. Here are my thoughts about these arguments:
Blaziken is weaker to priority than you think; one example being Grassy Glide. At -1 it can take upwards of 70%, so I’ve found it basically requires Psychic Terrain or dual screens to keep going. Using Flare Blitz makes its longevity even worse and Blaze Kick is a noticeable power drop, though I still prefer the latter.
1. The case is exactly the same with Volcarona. Urshifu is threatened by Psychic and can’t switch into it either.
3. It doesn’t, and saying that it invalidates priority as an option completely… just isn’t true. Commonly, Lele is too busy trying to make its own progress. By the time Blaziken’s got a chance to come in, unless you sack Lele early, you have maybe one turn of Psychic Terrain, two tops.
4. It REALLY hates Spikes. Rocks even, if you’re running Flare Blitz. At least Xard can Roost it off, but Blaziken can’t. Paired with helmet chip and dancing around it with defensive cores that don’t autolose, you can chip it a hell of a lot. One good priority move (which most offenses have) and it’s down. It can’t even hardswitch into Ferrothorn, fearing Leech Seed.
Some points of my own:
-Blaziken needs to get SD up to do all this breaking. “Not letting it set up” is both a stupid argument and a completely rational one. But I’ve been in games where it’s my wincon, opponent knows this, and I can’t find the SD opportunity.
-Blaziken is the deadest weight of all time against Rain structures
Seriously. What’s it doing, Thunder Punching Pelipper? Leading Blaziken against rain makes that stupidly obvious. Even Mega Pert is a fairly safe switch that Turn 1 and Swampert is faster than +1 chicken. If it sets up on Ferro, what then? It can:
-die to shuriken
-do 40 percent to Zapdos and die
-get outsped by Mega Pert (or abusers like Kingdra) and die
And Rain can do this all game too, so “just switch out” doesn’t really matter here.
-FLARE BLITZ SUCKS
Blaze Kick gang.
-Dragonite and others are already trending up.
That’s about it. All this is purely about the SD Thunder Punch set, though, since it’s the one everyone’s been talking about and the one I’ve been using.
Being forced to click grassy glide will allow it the blaziken player to bring in something like a corviknight to gain free momentum via u-turn, and the rillaboom have to predict correctly, else they lose the game from there.
You know how steels types are being used to pivot in against lele? Those are food for mega blaziken if you made a correct double switch. Some might bring up the situation where corviknight only dies to 1 roll of from flare blitz from full health and can just brave bird, however in practice you wouldn't do this as it would mean you are practically sacking you're corviknight if it clicked flare blitz, which allows blaziken's teammate to get to work.
Now this part is both on point and incorrect at the same time. Though roost is not necessarily a bad option, if Xard is spending a large portion of it's time roosting then it likely isn't going to do what it's supposed to do, wallbreaking. On paper roost makes it easier to sweep, in practice you have to think "where is xard gonna roost on? a ferrothorn that came in after it's teammate died?". Also entry hazards are actually more benifitial for blaziken than it's negatives, it help it breaks through sturdier walls such as toxapex.
An opponent playing a specific way to not let blaziken set up can be abused by it's teammate, for example if slowbro is constantly being switched in to prevent setup oppurtunity you can use weavile to get your opponent into a dangerous situation even with stealth rocks and only one layer of spikes.
Using a certain team structure is a bad arguement, as it's just literally promoting the use of it just to counter a specific mon, which should not be the case.-Blaziken is the deadest weight of all time against Rain structures
Seriously. What’s it doing, Thunder Punching Pelipper? Leading Blaziken against rain makes that stupidly obvious. Even Mega Pert is a fairly safe switch that Turn 1 and Swampert is faster than +1 chicken. If it sets up on Ferro, what then? It can:
-die to shuriken
-do 40 percent to Zapdos and die
-get outsped by Mega Pert (or abusers like Kingdra) and die
And Rain can do this all game too, so “just switch out” doesn’t really matter here.
35 BP is a big difference in power, you need more chip to get the blaziken counterplay to fall in range of it's attacks, with only 1/8 of a chance being stronger just to prevent recoil is just not worth it. Also there's the minor inconvenience that it has 90% accuracy.
Landorus-t can only counter mega blaziken with it's defensive sets, and even then it will still take hefty chunks of damage, Dragonite is super niche, thus making it a rare sight. Hippowdon is competing with landorus-t as a ground type, which is quite a common and popular mon, making the hippo less common but not really bad per say but still... the other viable counterplays have problems of it's own, most notably the bulky psychic types being dangerously weak to mega blaziken's partner in crime, Weavile.
Last edited:
You all note what it does individually but not what it does for it's team as i said at my post before the real reason that KFC is broken is because of how much it dents tanks, the synergy it does with other offensive mons like LeLe, Now for the Rain situation I mostly just bring general Water Resists that can be offensive but also pack some Bulk like Kommo, Gyarados or Kyurem with Freeze-Dry to counter it, all staples or used in an HO team which is AngryBird's most powerful playstyle.
Been spamming MBlaze. Not that I’m good (I’m actually ass), but I noticed its synergies with Lele and have been running it on HO as a more viable Xard. Here are my thoughts about these arguments:
Blaziken is weaker to priority than you think; one example being Grassy Glide. At -1 it can take upwards of 70%, so I’ve found it basically requires Psychic Terrain or dual screens to keep going. Using Flare Blitz makes its longevity even worse and Blaze Kick is a noticeable power drop, though I still prefer the latter.
1. The case is exactly the same with Volcarona. Urshifu is threatened by Psychic and can’t switch into it either.
3. It doesn’t, and saying that it invalidates priority as an option completely… just isn’t true. Commonly, Lele is too busy trying to make its own progress. By the time Blaziken’s got a chance to come in, unless you sack Lele early, you have maybe one turn of Psychic Terrain, two tops.
4. It REALLY hates Spikes. Rocks even, if you’re running Flare Blitz. At least Xard can Roost it off, but Blaziken can’t. Paired with helmet chip and dancing around it with defensive cores that don’t autolose, you can chip it a hell of a lot. One good priority move (which most offenses have) and it’s down. It can’t even hardswitch into Ferrothorn, fearing Leech Seed.
Some points of my own:
-Blaziken needs to get SD up to do all this breaking. “Not letting it set up” is both a stupid argument and a completely rational one. But I’ve been in games where it’s my wincon, opponent knows this, and I can’t find the SD opportunity.
-Blaziken is the deadest weight of all time against Rain structures
Seriously. What’s it doing, Thunder Punching Pelipper? Leading Blaziken against rain makes that stupidly obvious. Even Mega Pert is a fairly safe switch that Turn 1 and Swampert is faster than +1 chicken. If it sets up on Ferro, what then? It can:
-die to shuriken
-do 40 percent to Zapdos and die
-get outsped by Mega Pert (or abusers like Kingdra) and die
And Rain can do this all game too, so “just switch out” doesn’t really matter here.
-FLARE BLITZ SUCKS
Blaze Kick gang.
-Dragonite and others are already trending up.
That’s about it. All this is purely about the SD Thunder Punch set, though, since it’s the one everyone’s been talking about and the one I’ve been using.
My point is that when you mention checks you also have to acknowledge that M-Blaziken will have teammates which it can dent pokemon for or pave the way for a sweep for it, especially LeLe that thing was made for the KFC not only does it makes Pex scared of switchin in with Future Sights ( and yes Future Sight with Scarf is viable) it also appreciates the free hard switch it can do with AngryBird baiting Prio while also giving M-Blaziken free switches too since most of Lele's counters a.k.a Steel Types can’t do much to KFC especially with its added bulk and yeah they can Toxic it but that just gives AngryBird some free setup which is the last thing you want, and that thing with Lele's PsyTerrain only lasting 1 turn when you had sent in M-Blaziken is just not true but after you said that Flare Blitz sucks it is evident why you suck, and the Spikes Problem will probably not be a Problem for KFC since it is mostly a 1 time use pokemon which either results in a full sweep in the best sneario or just denting the enemies team for your allies either situation is benefiting for an HO playstyle making AngryBird easily spammable on these types of teams with almost all of the time causes Positive Results
TL;DR is that on paper M-Blaziken looks easily counterable and balanced* you need to always look at the bigger picture and realize that what KFC does is just apply Offensive Pressure and not a just a Sweeper as most thinks it is heck it doesn't even always need to SD sometimes it can just tear teams apart with justs its raw power breaking their defensive walls one by one until none of them are left and in the end even though it has some counter those counters fall apart to M-Blaziken other teammates
ive realised that it wld just be regurgitating the same information, so instead ill use this to correct others.
who is using rillaboom again? yeah exactly, and it definitely does not ”require” Psychic Terrain or dual screens, they are just extremely useful and near invalidate priority as an RK option.
1.
Volcarona can be walled by common Pokemon and is much more coverage reliant, Blaziken on the other hand is much harder to wall (just on a SD+TP basis, its really only Mega Latias lol, that actually “walls” it, and even then then requires the MTias to use Psyshock / the very uncommon Earthquake to actually beat it, and **even then**, ive seen people (astralydia ) experiment with bulkier spreads to actually beat Shock MTias, and even then, its still a 5050 roll to kill, so assuming it got a free setup oppurtunity it can still kill as a worst case scenario (MBlaze SDs on S/I, MLati Psyshocks as MBlaze SD’s again, next turn MBlaze CCs and KOs MLati after rocks).
see: +4 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 292-344 (80.2 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Of course this is a very on paper scenario, and a lot of things have to go right for MBlaze, but it just shows that even MLati isnt a consistent counter. But hey, theres also
which happens to be another great partner alongside it!Volcarona also struggles to find as much setup oppurtunities, and is useless vs bulkier archetypes. Furthermore, being able to actively boost your Speed while attacking is a very very big change lol, as it makes MBlaze much harder to RK if something is denying it completely free setup, ie Heatran or TWave Ferro. Moreover, the high raw power w/o boosts is a big jump, that in inself seperates it a lot from Volc as it forces out much much more unboosted.
[you skipped 2 :( ]
3.
MBlaze isnt like Hawlucha, it isnt a 1-time-use breaker which I think is what you misunderstand, the moment it gets on the field it doesnt have to sweep and win, it might just need to chip Lando first with a Flare Blitz, or threaten out the Heatran with CC while potentially wearing down something else. Blaze also isnt hard to bring in with so many pivots, and how rewarding it is to aggresive plays. Yeah if you play passively and are always on the backfoot, make no form of aggresive doubling you will not have the same success with Blaziken. Personally for me as someone who loves offense, utilising Blaziken was really easy as with slow pivots like Rotom-W and Lando T it got in quite a lot, as well as hard-ing it in on stuff like Roosting Corviknight, Mawile clicking Swords Dance, etc etc, and punish the opponent hard for it.
Furthermore, for the offensive teams that Blaziken fits on, Tapu Lele‘s Psychic Terrain is actually on quite often since (personally) ive used a lot of Scarf Lele with MBlaze to RK stuff like Shuriken AGren and FO MLop, and even with those 2 turns of terrain, thats 2 turns where you can SD and kill something, and it honestly isnt hard to punish something like MLop Fake Out, especially since it is much more predictable and they are backed into a corner.
4. Honestly just due to the sheer power that it offers, as well as its ability to offensively check things, it isnt hard to fit solid enough hazard control alongside it, so Rocks shouldnt be a problem. Me personally I ran Defog Helm Serp on one my team and Scarf Defog Fini on another, and honestly that was enough. Overall the teams excerted enough offensive pressure to dissuade / punish Pokemon setting Rocks up, so a lot of games either they trade their rocker (Lando generally) for rocks up, which means MBlaze does not have to fear that, or they dont get Rocks up because they dont want to risk it. This is easily done with a lot of bulky Pokemon that can win 1vqs consistently ie Melmetal, AV or something like Chople with Ice Punch. With Spikes, again with a decent enough Defogger IE Serp, Kartana, Lando T, WashTom, or even Scarf Fini, alongside your other offensive pressure, this shouldnt be an issue. The real question is, why arent you hard-Blaziken-ing on the say, Ferro and taking advantage of that? This honestly sounds like a practice issue which can easily be fixed with better understanding of how the Pokemon pans out and plays.
Not really honestly, esp since vs teams where it needs setup to break, generally finding opportunities isnt hard, like yes it is hard to find a 100% safe setup opportunity, but why would it matter if your Blaziken gets Paralysed by the TWave ferro in the semi stall team, which you all outspeed after 2 boosts? Why would it matter that the Chansey Toxiced you when all you need like 4 turns to remove half their team? And against the faster teams, realistically the opponent requires extremely aggresive and potentially game losing plays in order to actually deny you setup, but honestly ATP it just sounds like you’re getting outplayed. Even in the absolute worst case scenario, ive had Blaziken still put in work, i had to 1v1 a Fini since i needed HP on my GMolt to win, so i SDed directly on the Fini, ate the Scald, and removed the Fini and another Pokemon before I died. Also the last line just sounds like you got outmaneuvered, not really a mon problem.
MBlaze does NOT need to sweep every single time.
It can just break holes, or even just wear down stuff for its teammates, it does not need to be the wincon every time.
Yes the Fire type isnt good VS Rain, who would have thought huh xdxdxdd!!! Maybe we should free Reshiram too.
On a more serious note, this just isnt true, while yes it is a bad MU, it definitely isnt dead weight. Threatening TPunch on Pelliper is big, especially since Rain really appreciates its Pokemon alive, even the “offensive” ones like Zapdos and Mega Swampert to deal with your other teammates on an Offense team, what do you swap to safely? Say its partnered with like, a Serp or like GMolt, swapping to Zapdos means now those Pokemon win because MBlaze wore it down. MPert also definitely isnt a safe S/I, as taking a CC puts it in range of a stray Helmet hit + Rocks, so like the aforementioned Helm serp, or Helm Lando means it dies. MPert, arguably rains biggest tool vs Offense has now been sacked, and a lot of your teammmates can win much much easier w/o a Swift Swim mon outspeeding them. IDK how you dont see forcing AGren to shuriken as big (if Psy Terrain isnt already up lol), but it is not hard to take advantage of.
Yes the 5 people on ladder using it (like seriously lol, more people are using Venusaur than DNite), this surely cannot be a serious reason.
Adding on to this so it isnt just a post critising other posts:
The Bulk is actually a really big factor which seems quite overshadowed altho its a minor bump up, being able to setup on Fini as a worst case scenario is huge, and won me a game or two, as well as consistently being able to take Heatrans EP and setting up on it. As well as other miscellaneous stuff like Greninjas Shuriken after rocks much better, honestly v gamechanging in practice.
btw
MTios is pushing it since +2 CC/Blitz kills after rocks lol, and Lando is a rlly soft check at best since it is not hard to wear down /chip on HO or offense, and it being at 100 is unrealistic. So its rlly just hippo which needs mixdef / physdef to deal with since:(Things that will still defensively check)
/
and even then, not hard to Toxic it w Lando or catch it with a UTurn:
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Hippowdon: 355-418 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and koffing off its lefties mean:
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Hippowdon: 333-393 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+ it is not hard to say, land a Toxic on Hippo, and it isnt the most splashable mon either, still a niche one. Also removing a good chunk (this is impish btw) of its special bulk sucks a fuck ton for Hippo, and even then putting it in range w a Spike or a burn isnt somethinh too revolutionary.
also dnite lol
And no, this isnt a mald post, i never lost a game to MBlaze, only to the woatest CTeam of all time
https://pokepast.es/5a225d8f738b7efa heres the team i used BTW, for reference to the sets.
Last edited:
So I’ve been noticing a lot of posts stating that “Blaziken is weak to Water Shuriken, Aqua Jet, takes 70 from Grassy Glide, et cetera”. Well short answer here, Mega Blaze doesn’t have to stay in and try to sweep. It’s pretty easy to just switch out as it forces an opponent to click a priority move or die. Also, I’ve seen people say that Blaze is useless against fat playstyles such as Fat Balance or Stall, which I will direct you to this replay to show how Mega Blaze + Weavile does against stall. On top of that, Rillaboom is kinda falling off, due to Rocky Helmet making it really easy to chip.
Long story short, Mega Blaze is, well, still too strong for National Dex.
also replies
Tl;Dr: Blaze doesn’t have to win, it just has to punch a huge hole in an opposing team.
Long story short, Mega Blaze is, well, still too strong for National Dex.
also replies
Untrue, as it has a solid 160 base attack that can make it hard to switch in to with neutral targets.
Also untrue, as at +2 it outspeeds Mega Pert and forcing Gren to Water Shuriken is very exploitable for momentum, forcing a 50/50
Have fun being infinitely walled by Gliscor
Tl;Dr: Blaze doesn’t have to win, it just has to punch a huge hole in an opposing team.
Insou
formerly LoveStallLiveLife
You can't really just use Rain as an argument to unban it lmfaoooo.
Been spamming MBlaze. Not that I’m good (I’m actually ass), but I noticed its synergies with Lele and have been running it on HO as a more viable Xard. Here are my thoughts about these arguments:
Blaziken is weaker to priority than you think; one example being Grassy Glide. At -1 it can take upwards of 70%, so I’ve found it basically requires Psychic Terrain or dual screens to keep going. Using Flare Blitz makes its longevity even worse and Blaze Kick is a noticeable power drop, though I still prefer the latter.
1. The case is exactly the same with Volcarona. Urshifu is threatened by Psychic and can’t switch into it either.
3. It doesn’t, and saying that it invalidates priority as an option completely… just isn’t true. Commonly, Lele is too busy trying to make its own progress. By the time Blaziken’s got a chance to come in, unless you sack Lele early, you have maybe one turn of Psychic Terrain, two tops.
4. It REALLY hates Spikes. Rocks even, if you’re running Flare Blitz. At least Xard can Roost it off, but Blaziken can’t. Paired with helmet chip and dancing around it with defensive cores that don’t autolose, you can chip it a hell of a lot. One good priority move (which most offenses have) and it’s down. It can’t even hardswitch into Ferrothorn, fearing Leech Seed.
Some points of my own:
-Blaziken needs to get SD up to do all this breaking. “Not letting it set up” is both a stupid argument and a completely rational one. But I’ve been in games where it’s my wincon, opponent knows this, and I can’t find the SD opportunity.
-Blaziken is the deadest weight of all time against Rain structures
Seriously. What’s it doing, Thunder Punching Pelipper? Leading Blaziken against rain makes that stupidly obvious. Even Mega Pert is a fairly safe switch that Turn 1 and Swampert is faster than +1 chicken. If it sets up on Ferro, what then? It can:
-die to shuriken
-do 40 percent to Zapdos and die
-get outsped by Mega Pert (or abusers like Kingdra) and die
And Rain can do this all game too, so “just switch out” doesn’t really matter here.
-FLARE BLITZ SUCKS
Blaze Kick gang.
-Dragonite and others are already trending up.
That’s about it. All this is purely about the SD Thunder Punch set, though, since it’s the one everyone’s been talking about and the one I’ve been using.
It's not just weavile that ultimately makes it "Broken". The mon itself is too good for national dex. What we have in the current meta that considerably "Checks it" are rendered useless afterwards after a +2 Flare Blitz which opens up a sweeping opportunity most of the time. Blaze can come in and chip down, or revenge kill a certain mon and ultimately sweep lategame once it's "Checks" has been worn down. Lando singlehandly handles blaziken, but then again, it doesn't have to SD and aim for a sweep early on in the game. People that argue that ohhh LO Blaziken is the same! It does the same shit! It can be worn down easily by lando! HIPPO! FINI! Are just ridiculous lmfao. Reg Blaziken is easier to wear down to the life orb dmg+fb recoil. It frees up a mega slot sure but it shouldn't Also create an argument that mega blaziken will underperform just because it's regular counterpart is underperforming in the ladder. Additionally even Stalls are inconsistent against mega chicken, because the same argument exists, clefable, toxapex can be chipped and forced out, and if they have something like z happy hour jirachi or tapu lele in the back then have fun dealing with that!
Last edited:
Probably should also mention the fact that stall is not a particularly good playstyle rn
If your sole activity in this thread is going to be posting very obvious baits to get some reactions you really should refrain from posting
It's not adding anything of value to the conversation and it's probably confusing to some newer players, if you wanna act like that fine, at least back it up with (semi-valid) arguments
I believe that quick attack mega-pinsir also K.O. on MblazikenWell I guess I'll state my opinion now. I guess. Let's start by discussing all the potential sets/coverage and what they offer/forfeit.
First I'd like to go over what this does over normal life orb chicken, and that's be less vulnerable to chip due to increased defenses (+10 on each) and no Life Orb Chip and outspeed stuff like scarf Lando Lele at +1 and start out with 100 base speeds to cover stuff like Kyu Hydrei Tapu Lele and weakened Lando from the turn it gets in on them. It deals slightly less damage, but if you do the calcs yourself you'll notice its not really that noticeable outside of a few rolls that actually benefit the normal chicken (more on that anyone wants it). Is it better than normal LO Blaziken? Yes. Is it better than Blaziken that can run an item? Most likely. Is just being "better" enough to actually make it broken? That's what I'll go more in depth to look at.
Things that will COUNTER Mega Chicken regardless:
(Niche)
+ Thunder Punch
People can prob argue that this is its best set (and it is imo) as it nets you coverage on hitting Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Slowbro, Pelipper hard while giving up coverage on the Latis (Weavile can cover this but I'll come back to this in a bit).
(Things that will still defensively check)+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 262-310 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (18.8 ohko after rocks)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 334-394 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Toxapex: 248-292 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (56.3 ohko after rocks)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 548-648 (169.6 - 200.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Peli only mentioned cause of rain)
+ Knock Off
L Coverage move, you hit Slowbro and the Latis in exchange for being walled by Toxapex and checked by Fini and have a harder time covering these two through something like Pursuit. It helps in removing something like Rocky Helmet/Lefties on Lando or Hippo but you still need to deal with them afterwards. Better off pairing Mblaze with a Pursuit Weavile/TTar if u want to cover this route.
(Things that will still defensive check)
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 282-334 (77.4 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Needs Rocks for 31.3% lol L
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO Lol yikes
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+Earthquake
For those of you who want to OHKO Toxapex and do literally nothing else over better coverage, here you go lol. A 37.5 roll to OHKO on max def pex though.
(Any check listed that isnt Toxapex works here)
+U-Turn
Same thing as above, hit Latis and Slowbro (but not reliably since u have to switch out and slowbro regens too) but better options in Knock/TPunch.
(Any check listed besides Latis and sorta Slowbro works here)
+Protect
Better anti-offense mon, but loses out on the coverage to beat any defensive check listed here.
(Any check listed here)
Other Sets other than SD:
I don't see why this gets brought up or why you would run it over SD. The only thing it valuably lures is defensive Landorus as Glisc and Chomp arent answers regardless. In return you leave yourself more open to one of the many checks listed above with a harder time breaking non defensive Landorus-T teams.
Vacuum Wave
Mentioned in the room and in the discord a bit so u get a mention but
0 SpA Blaziken-Mega Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 144-170 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO lol. In exchange for hitting this for 50 and killing Kart you face coverage issues.
Toxic Flare U-turn Tect (I think)? Shoutout post to R8
Another cool set although I think the flaws of this are obvious to not go into and definitely don't aid in whether or not it should be banned.
It is important I mention all of these before moving onto our next section, which I think SHOULD be the deal breaker for whether or not you choose to ban Mega Blaziken, because ALL of these calcs and scenarios are achieved/surpassed by NORMAL LIFE ORB CHICKEN. Other variants of Blaziken can actually outright remove some of these checks with Z's over Mega Blaziken failing to OHKO at +2 as well. The point made with using Weavile to cover the defensive problems of bulky psychics, hp ice to lure Lando, Vacuum Wave to cheese weakened Gren (gl) and Kartana are all applicable on normal Blaziken itself, so if you value this part of Blaziken you are better off with running another mega and not wasting your opportunity costs with other megas.
The Bulk/Survivability
+10 Offenses aren't a big deal, but if you want to know where these really matter or some calcs that have been recognized, here's some calcs on that below
I don't think the extra bulk is very impactful to the point where it grants Mega Blaziken more opportunities, 80/80/80 is pretty minute from 80/70/70.252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 252-306 (83.7 - 101.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken-Mega: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
I see this calc get brought up entirely as for why mblaze is scary and I have to say its pretty laughable considering 3 hits isn't even average trying to kill either Blaziken from full is a gamble and if you get 4+ they are both guaranteed dead so. Rocks give both a better chance to OHKO but this is Blaziken it will probably see chip before u send a Greninja to Water Shuriken it lmao.
252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 123-146 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 136-162 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
same as above for being a laughable thing to bring up, not sure what setup you are going to do to consistently get mega chicken to avoid rilla range over regular chicken.
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken-Mega: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 140-168 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO
scenario p much doesn't matter because if Blaze isnt Tpunch/Eq Pex is winning the interaction and if it is Pex is likely getting only one Scald off+ Rocks brings both to 2HKO range.
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken-Mega: 206-246 (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this is the one meaningful calc I could find that benefits Mblaze over Blaziken, in that it does not have a chance to be OHKO'd after rocks by Scald. Running Rocky Helmet on Slowbro solves this however, but go figure.
THE SPEED
The real content begins here. Let's take a look at all the new things Mega Blaziken is granted over Blaziken. Important to note that Mega Blaziken is forced into Jolly to achieve these, or else you might as well not even run Mega Blaziken over Jolly Blaziken for these things:
Outspeeds: :Urshifu-R:
,
(runs agility so iffy),
(common ddancer),
(more important for +2 speed blaze in sand vs drill)
Ties:
Important +1 Creeps on scarfers:
As you can see, some counterplay is rooted out for not being fast enough, and these 4 scarfers will fall to Mega Blaziken coverage with an asterik on fini as it wins if you are not TPunch. This is very significant, and I do believe this makes Mega Blaziken a bit more difficult to account for but there are still healthy ways of keeping Mega Blaziken in check outside of relying on these 4 scarfers to revenge at +1. It will likely mean these teams will need a different means of revenging Mega Blaziken over regular Blaziken but imo isn't something that's restricting enough for me to consider it unhealthy. This does however, put Mega Blaziken a few notches over the standard life orb set along with the slight bulk/lack of recoil from life orb if you don't have a mega and are considering on adding that slot to your team.
PRIORITY
Straight out of the gate, the only two priority capable of OHKO'ing Mega Blaziken areand
(ig daunt too but w/e). However due to the nature of Mega Blaziken as a set up sweeper it sees itself chipping itself very often through the course of a game or reducing its sweep potential with Flare Blitz/CC opening up other options like Rilla Glide, Medi/Lop Fake Out, Mawile sucker later on.
Set Up Opportunities
They are about just the same as normal Blaziken although slightly better in some cases due to not having an item to set up on Knock Offs more, which isn't very good considering that Blaziken already doesn't get many opportunities through its typing and mid defenses. You do gain the jump on stuff like Kyurem and Hydrei now so the added speed helps a bit more in this department but still not anything great.
So What Partners Can MBlaze Run
/ +
Mega Blaziken and Weavile compliment each other wearing down each others checks while also having Weavile provide pursuit for Slowbro and Latis, however aren't really the strongest defensively. Tapu Koko strengthens Tpunch variants and can potentially provide pressure on Defensive Lando-T if it is their only electric answer (although it shouldnt for obvious reasons). Can bring Mblaze in on stuff like ferro to set up. Tapu Lele can help alleviate the problem of being answered by priority and annoy switchins to MBlaze. These are kind of things regular Blaziken can abuse itself however which has not really been recognized so I'm again surprised why people are scared just now.
So What Are Some Decent Cores Against MBlaze
+
This is just an example but basically defensive check that can live a +2 hit + priority will pretty much always snuff out Mega Blaziken even if it is running the right coverage to invalidate your offensive answer.
Covers all coverage routes however is susceptible to Weavile+ Mblaze making this one more consistent outside of this pair.
(Defensive)
Opportunity Cost
There is a very real opportunity cost of running this as your mega over other things on a Hyper Offense team, considering it can also perform a similar job running Life Orb/Z instead, giving up another potential mega like sciz chomp or gyarados. Someone else probs can go to a greater depth than that for me getting tired on this post. Additionally this mon can face competition from similar fighting types megas like Mega Medi for breaking BO/fat and Mega Lop for handling offense + better initial speed tier.
Conclusion
With all this said, IN MY OPINION I believe Mega Blaziken will be very good, but NOT BANWORTHY due to having stable enough counterplay that I don't feel is super restricting. I can't really stress this enough, the mon has answers y'all, that aren't as restrictive as something like Dragapult or Tornadus-Therian. I do think that the added speed tier makes checking it from something like Normal Blaziken a bit trickier but it can still be done without sacrificing your team. The +2 Calcs are pretty absurd but it still needs to find set up opportunities which is a lot more difficult in practice and once it has it, has to pick coverage vs existing checks and deals enough chip to be picked off by priority if you don't have the greatest defensive answer. It's a shock to me that people are acting like we don't already have a mid mon that can do all these same calcs to I decided to elaborate on this and more. Ok goodnight now, feel free to disagree and whatnot. There's plenty of points to be picked out in this post about why the mon is good or why it's overrated and I feel it's good discussion nevertheless.
TL;DR: Very good, not broken
I think the big problem with mega blaziken is how it can run adamant with little consequence. You can still outspeed a +1 or +2 adamant non-mega blaziken pretty handily most of the time which definitely contributed to why it was un-ban worthy in the first place, since many players would then opt to run jolly which can actually be answered by neutral bulk like garchomp. There really aren't many relevant mons that you can say the same for mega blaziken.
Mega pinsir has a lot of flaws and not worth mentioning. It isn't even ranked in the viaiblity rankings.
It's not the hugest problem per say, and quite a bit misleading. Running Adamant means that blaziken is unable to outspeed jolly excadrill in sand at +2, slower than scarf landorus-t and tapu lele at +1(doesn't really matter since they won't really be hard switching in anyways...), failing to tie with base 100s and the task of revenge killing kyurem, hydreigon and a heavily chipped urshifu and mega garchomp. However there's a few compensations for that, as 3 of the 16 rolls of +2 flare blitz will roast landorus-t from full, and only one of them fail to do so after stealth rock. Slowbro needs less chip to be shocked by +2 thunder punch. The same goes for more physically defensive hippowdon spreads.
TL;DR Adamant is more suit for murdering bulkier teams if you have offense fully covered up, which is an equal or slightly worse trade.
Last edited:
I think this is a perfect evaluation of why Mega Blaziken is ban worthy, and while I'm here I'd like to list some damage calcs to drive home how many ways it can overcome it's counters.
Edit: The post I was quoting seems to have disappeared, but it put how I felt into words better than I could.
Terrain can help a lot, even ignoring the obvious benefits of psychic terrain, grassy terrain counteracts much of the chip it takes and can buy you an extra turn of set up against bulky ground types, potentially allowing for a sweep where you'd usually be countered.
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 180-212 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery
Electric terrain boosts you coverage enough that bulky waters are just worthless.
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 370-436 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 292-344 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 292-344 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Sun, might not be as reliable as rain, but these numbers are terrifying.
+1 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian in Sun: 436-514 (114.1 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 321-378 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 321-378 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 321-378 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 321-378 (88.1 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And trying to change the weather against it is risky to say the least.
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 304-360 (94.1 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: You know how this ends
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: You know how this ends
I know that timid life orb blaziken seems similar at first, but it's significantly weaker, frailer, slower, and often kills itself with life orb too fast for it to sweep.
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 291-348 (90 - 107.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 354-419 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 308-363 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 308-363 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 354-419 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 308-363 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 308-363 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Last edited:
All this calcs are with adamant in mind, which is not how blaziken is usually ran, since the speed drop leaves u outsped at +1 by lele and lando (scarfed), and at neutral by the likes of kyurem and hydreigon.
Its speed tier is the main reason why mega blaziken might be banworthy while regular isnt, and with jolly some of these calcs change significantly, namely the pelipper one goes from a ~70% chance to OHKO to a mere 25% or so.
Also calcs alone are not enough to make a pokemon banworthy, otherwise hoopa would be triple banned.
For my suspect post, I’d like to focus on just one element of mega blaziken that is different from regular blaziken, and why it’s such a big deal: base 100 speed. This is undoubtedly the biggest improvement between mega blaziken and regular blaziken and boy what an improvement it is! This speed tier increase makes it far, far harder to revenge kill as most scarfers in the tier either can’t hit it hard enough (kartana, jirachi) or are slower than m blaze after a speed boost. (Lando, lele, fini)
It can be revenge killed by priority, namely water shuriken and fake out shuffling, but this usually loses a lot of momentum for the player, ending with them in a rather horrible position to be in, whether m blaze is on the field or not. Blaziken is also commonly paired with lele, which can make priority a much less viable option for revenge killing blaziken. Overall m blaze is much harder to revenge kill than regular blaziken, and has an easier time finding opportunities to threaten Pokémon out and set up due to its increased speed.
Now that it has been established that mega blaziken is difficult to revenge kill, I’d like to present the part that pushes blaziken over the edge: its very limited pool of defensive checks and counters. If you can’t check mega blaze offensively, you have to do it defensively, and that is also challenging. Many bulky waters would prefer to run spdef in nat dex, such as pex and fini, and as such aren’t very good answers to a +2 thunder punch. Pex I don’t even consider a counter to mega blaziken because it takes several turns for it to actually scare mega blaziken out, and pex ends up getting scared out first. Mons that CAN deal with mega blaze rather reliably are mega latias and slowbro, outside of that there aren’t many other viable defensive checks. (Altaria will not be mentioned in this post, sorry but not sorry,). However, both of these aforementioned Pokémon are very easy to weaken with pursuit, and weavile is probably THE MOST common partner to mega blaziken. Killing mega blaziken with recoil is also a very stupid argument in my opinion because the premise is basically “it’s not broken because if I sac 2 mons, its dead.” Killing it with recoil just proves how effective of an enabler it is, how hard it is to properly switch into and counter AND how hard it is to revenge kill.
Because if it’s limited counterplay offensively and defensively, mega blaziken feels like it makes progress a little to consistently. Though it might not be the most broken Pokémon to ever be tested in nat dex, I do think mega blaze has to go. It has quickly proven its offensive breaking power and is very restricting in the builder. Its pool of both offensive and defensive counterplay is very limited and it has many great teammates to deal with the counterplay that does exist.
It can be revenge killed by priority, namely water shuriken and fake out shuffling, but this usually loses a lot of momentum for the player, ending with them in a rather horrible position to be in, whether m blaze is on the field or not. Blaziken is also commonly paired with lele, which can make priority a much less viable option for revenge killing blaziken. Overall m blaze is much harder to revenge kill than regular blaziken, and has an easier time finding opportunities to threaten Pokémon out and set up due to its increased speed.
Now that it has been established that mega blaziken is difficult to revenge kill, I’d like to present the part that pushes blaziken over the edge: its very limited pool of defensive checks and counters. If you can’t check mega blaze offensively, you have to do it defensively, and that is also challenging. Many bulky waters would prefer to run spdef in nat dex, such as pex and fini, and as such aren’t very good answers to a +2 thunder punch. Pex I don’t even consider a counter to mega blaziken because it takes several turns for it to actually scare mega blaziken out, and pex ends up getting scared out first. Mons that CAN deal with mega blaze rather reliably are mega latias and slowbro, outside of that there aren’t many other viable defensive checks. (Altaria will not be mentioned in this post, sorry but not sorry,). However, both of these aforementioned Pokémon are very easy to weaken with pursuit, and weavile is probably THE MOST common partner to mega blaziken. Killing mega blaziken with recoil is also a very stupid argument in my opinion because the premise is basically “it’s not broken because if I sac 2 mons, its dead.” Killing it with recoil just proves how effective of an enabler it is, how hard it is to properly switch into and counter AND how hard it is to revenge kill.
Because if it’s limited counterplay offensively and defensively, mega blaziken feels like it makes progress a little to consistently. Though it might not be the most broken Pokémon to ever be tested in nat dex, I do think mega blaze has to go. It has quickly proven its offensive breaking power and is very restricting in the builder. Its pool of both offensive and defensive counterplay is very limited and it has many great teammates to deal with the counterplay that does exist.
I mostly agree, but since there have been many posts explaining how hard it can be to check Mega Blaziken offensively (including my first post) I wanted to explore how well it could break walls, especially with the right team support. And it's not like the Jolly calcs are awful.
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 292-344 (80.2 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian in Sun: 397-468 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian in Sun: 397-468 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 99-117 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 9.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 99-117 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 9.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
But more importantly, I know that Hoopa and even hitting harder than Hoopa isn't necessarily ban worthy, but a faster, bulkier, harder hitting Hoopa that can have its stab boosted by weather, and has a better offensive typing that resists most priority and is immune to burn and gets swords dance and gets speed boost? I think that's ban worthy.
Last edited:
I thought about this a bit.
I read the posts in this thread and came to the conclusion that we should BAN this thing.
I think the true strength of mega Blaziken isn't 100% known in my opinion.
The 4-moveslot-syndrome is its biggest weakness, but also the reason why it's uncompetitive:
It theoretically has the coverage to kill every mon in this meta (pjab for fini, eq for pex, tpunch for waters, hp ice for dragons, knock/U-turn for psychics). I also know that a lot of these options are common.
But you will never know what the opponent will have and use to lure and remove your walls.
The standard cc, blitz, sd, protect/tpunch is already enough to do a lot. You've probably seen the cals here already 100 times; no need to spam them again.
And this is my next point: m-blaziken can lure and kill important checks for a lot of mons like ash-gren, tran, weavile, (m-) gyrados….
Last but not least; M-Blaziken pairs fantastically whit lele, rilla,(ash-)gren and kart.
I sadly lost a replay 6-0ing 1700elo stall whit m-blaziken
I read the posts in this thread and came to the conclusion that we should BAN this thing.
I think the true strength of mega Blaziken isn't 100% known in my opinion.
The 4-moveslot-syndrome is its biggest weakness, but also the reason why it's uncompetitive:
It theoretically has the coverage to kill every mon in this meta (pjab for fini, eq for pex, tpunch for waters, hp ice for dragons, knock/U-turn for psychics). I also know that a lot of these options are common.
But you will never know what the opponent will have and use to lure and remove your walls.
The standard cc, blitz, sd, protect/tpunch is already enough to do a lot. You've probably seen the cals here already 100 times; no need to spam them again.
And this is my next point: m-blaziken can lure and kill important checks for a lot of mons like ash-gren, tran, weavile, (m-) gyrados….
Last but not least; M-Blaziken pairs fantastically whit lele, rilla,(ash-)gren and kart.
I sadly lost a replay 6-0ing 1700elo stall whit m-blaziken
Last edited:
- Status