Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Moyashi]

Stored power set ups through z moves are very match up fishy and generally inconsistent. They may be annoying on some occasion but are not at all broken or worth looking at.

Anyways felt like dropping a couple random misc thoughts again. Metagame has overall felt very pleasant outside Sneasler, and some of the most fun I've had playing ladder all generation. Lots of possibilities right now. Though there are some notable relevant stuff too.


Feel like a broken record talking about this mon but it's hard not to sing its praises. Mola has quickly become a very relevant defensive metagame staple and its proficiency is well known at this point. It enables all sorts of strategies with its wish passing and longevity, and I think it has even other interesting options too. Was even caught off guard by an AV mirror Coat Mola the other day (think it was scald/flip/knock/coat). Very good pokemon that teams need to account for how they'll get past.


Offensive spikes setter I'm a huge fan of. Despite the modest overall stats it puts in loads of work and can be challenging to handle when you don't yet know the set (predicting scarf and pivoting to a resist just to let it SD for example). Watching standard SV, I think resttalk 2 attack sets couls be useful since the typing is still practical defensively.

Speaking of typing, ceaseless edge is a busted move but I'd also like to make special note of Razor Shell, which when boosted by sharpness, sometimes feels almost as crazy. 50% defense drop let's it break through more mons you wouldn't expect it to and it can make it more threatening than it already is. I've played and watched many games where it drops a switch ins defense and let Sam pick it off. Mon is great.


Been trying this post Bloodmoon and it feels okay. The good stats and movepool leads me to think people aren't experimenting enough with it bsyond generic flame orb sets which is a shame. Spdef Bulk Up is okay as a wincon, especially since you can take Koko and bulky zapdos really well. You can also soft check special attackers like Mega Diancie decently well. I'd be curious to see people branch out with this mon more.

 

[Aesiro13]

Offensive spikes setter I'm a huge fan of. Despite the modest overall stats it puts in loads of work and can be challenging to handle when you don't yet know the set (predicting scarf and pivoting to a resist just to let it SD for example). Watching standard SV, I think resttalk 2 attack sets couls be useful since the typing is still practical defensively.

Speaking of typing, ceaseless edge is a busted move but I'd also like to make special note of Razor Shell, which when boosted by sharpness, sometimes feels almost as crazy. 50% defense drop let's it break through more mons you wouldn't expect it to and it can make it more threatening than it already is. I've played and watched many games where it drops a switch ins defense and let Sam pick it off. Mon is great.

Agree with most of this, offensive hazard setters have always been kinda clunky since the Pokemon aren't made to do that. However, I do kinda disagree with Ceaseless Edge being busted. It's good and strong, but definitely not busted.

 

[MajorHurricane]

darkrai talk reminds me of all the blaziken talk last gen natdex when everyone would swear up and down that its the most busted thing ever on paper and cause Z moves then we unbanned it from ubers and it went UU in like two months, thing was so bad we even suspected mega blaziken at that point after people claimed regular was clearly too powerful for the tier.

Darkrai is in the same category as Naganadel in terms of banned mons in that it’s stats don’t look inherently broken due to the lack of bulk but the coverage is phenomenal. The NP sets are borderline impossible to wall but it doesn’t necessarily need NP to succeed because the coverage and speed tier alllows it to run Specs sets.
However, the general opinion of IVal suggests to me that it may not be as broken in practice as it is on paper as common scarf users and priority can pick it off fairly easily. Speaking of Naga, Darkrai doesn’t have the potential speed boost after a KO that it does. Bad Dreams is a great ability but it’s fairly unreliable if you’re just banking on Hypnosis to hit, and Rest is not a common move in the tier (the only way that would happen is if you unban Gira-A as well which is just Suicune on steroids lmao). But Z-Hypnosis sets that hidin mentioned here could be especially problematic with the +1 speed boost. At the least, it’s a scary mon, I wouldn’t be opposed to a suspect test to see if it’s indeed broken as it seems on paper as honestly it seems like the least broken uber (barring some complex move bans that make certain Ubers like Marsh, Vish, etc broken) asides from maybe Roaring Moon but even then it just doesn’t seem like it’d be a healthy addition or worth suspect testing at this point and time.

 

[NightEmerald]

Firstly, Stored Power is a Psychic type move, meaning any Dark type (either naturally or Tera) can completely bypass the threat Stored Power poses. Second, Unaware Pokemon like Clefable, Dondozo, and Skeledirge can ignore the stat omniboost and either Toxic stall them out or setup and sweep them. Third, Steel doesn't counter omniboost Stored Power, even not Kingambit and Gholdengo. So no, action is not required.

Firstly, while dark types are often immune to stored power, every single stored power uses coverage to get around this vulnerability, such as cresselia with moonblast or victini with focus blast
Secondly, while unaware pokemondo block the stat boosts from Z-Celebrate, they do not ignore the base power increase of stored power, which is compounded by the fact that thevast majority of unaware pokemon are physically defensive, and clodsire, while a good wall to stored power in a vacuum, can be easily dispatched with common teammates such as a pursuit user due to its passiveness
As for point 3, while I do agree that steel absolutely is not a counter to stored power sets (see: searing shot victini) I bring up kingambit and gholdengo specifically as they were some of the most splashable checks to stored power in the past, owing to their excellent typings and bulk (kingambit's 100/120/85 and gholdengo's 87/95/91 with recover) while still resisting the stored power, as well as *some of* the coverage.

But tbh im probably salt posting after I got the game of guess the set with lead victini wrong, and it turns out the +1 def boost means it can just take a sucker punch

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Stored power set ups through z moves are very match up fishy and generally inconsistent. They may be annoying on some occasion but are not at all broken or worth looking at.

Anyways felt like dropping a couple random misc thoughts again. Metagame has overall felt very pleasant outside Sneasler, and some of the most fun I've had playing ladder all generation. Lots of possibilities right now. Though there are some notable relevant stuff too.


Feel like a broken record talking about this mon but it's hard not to sing its praises. Mola has quickly become a very relevant defensive metagame staple and its proficiency is well known at this point. It enables all sorts of strategies with its wish passing and longevity, and I think it has even other interesting options too. Was even caught off guard by an AV mirror Coat Mola the other day (think it was scald/flip/knock/coat). Very good pokemon that teams need to account for how they'll get past.

Yes, it is excellent into Zapdos/Pex cores.

Nominating

to A-/A (could probably be A+ too).

This is just the mother of all bulky waters in NatDex after the Scarlet and Violet Teal Mask DLC - it compresses the roles of gen 8 Toxapex and Slowbro (sacrifices future sight support for those big fat wishes) into one package with its massive HP stat, slow speed and great utility moves. I have been using sealoo's Lunar Sand team with mixed Alomomola and it put in absurd amounts of work - it healed teammates wonderfully via wish without eating into its ability to come back for more hits thanks to regenerator, seized momentum with slow flip turns while statusing almost everything with toxic. Speaking of toxic, it is only one of the many viable options for its final moveslot - mirror coat, light screen, magic coat, knock off, scald, and even moves like confide or psych up can be used according to the needs of its teams. I think it is quite clearly the best bulky water in the tier right now and should be ranked accordingly.

 

[Patar136]

I would like to add that a National Dex Ubers UU, or UUbers, would be something I think has tons of potential. Because Ubers has well over 70 Pokemon or so and there certainly exists room for UUbers to be a metagame where we can try out things that are obviously well above OU but not quite good enough for Ubers. Shaymin-Sky stands out as an example, as do Landorus-I, Darkrai and Mega Blaziken.

I think it would be interesting to craft such a metagame and think there would be support for it. Maybe even one where we can try things like Arena Trap Dugtrio, Shadow Tag Gothitelle and such. I think the potential exists we would just have to decide what we could test and what we should not bother testing. Like, nobody wants Baton Pass in UUbers, but maybe Shed Tail? Again, for people to decide.

 

[Meteor 450]

Some Random Takes

Moltres
I'm expecting this thing to drop hard now that Ghold is gone. It wants to be switching into the likes of Rillaboom, MSciz, physical Valiant but all of these tend to run Knock, which Moltres really doesn't appreciate. This problem is obviously the worst for its defog set, which is by far the easiest to slot on teams as when a defogger loses 50% every time it tries to do it's job, it doesn't do it very well. It also gets utterly destroyed by all the A+ Rank Pokémon other than Sneasler and Lele.

Ting-Lu
I don't think the loss of Ghold is too terminal for this actually. It really appreciates Mola giving it pseudorecovery, and Spikes are still as good as ever.

Urshifu-R
This thing is amazing imo. Punching Glove sets w/ SD are really scary as traditional ways of punishing Surging Strikes like Ferro and Zapdos don't work and nothing other than Mola or Pex (which is falling off a bit I think thanks to Mola) really wants to switch into it. I find Scarf sets a bit lacking in power tbh, but they're great for revenge killing and momentum with forcing switches + U-Turn.
Just a shame it's so outclassed by Waterpon.

Mega Scizor
We are so back. Now that Ghold is gone it doesn't have to slot Knock on every set + it pairs really well with Mola and switches into Valiant, Waterpon and Lele just fine.

Waterpon, Mola, Lele
Everyone has said how good these are way better than I can. Mola just gives so much freedom in building because of those fat Wishes.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Waterpon, Mola, Lele
Everyone has said how good these are way better than I can. Mola just gives so much freedom in building because of those fat Wishes.
Well then Meteor 450 ,since u didnt gave a proper explanation for these three, i can give it for u.


I seen many players say that his the potential of being broken, and I can see why. Water is an overall good offensive type, with neutrality to most types minus itself, grass and dragon. Most bulky waters have to consider the incoming Horn Leech, which can be terryfing after an SD, and grants its longevity as well, or Wood Hammer, which does itself recoil, but the extra power can help it take down certain obstacles easier. There is almost no bulky Dragon types besides maybe Multiscale Dragonite, do there is decent bulky Grass types like Ferrothorn and Tangrowth. Ferrothorn can takes its stabs well, however it may struggle to cripple it, if it has Taunt, and it doesnt like taking Superpower. However, Tangrowth is admitingly a solid check to it, albeit its on the underrated side. There is also the fact that Wellspring can run 2 viable sets, an offensive set with SD, or an utility set with Spikes. Overall its a solid pokemon that has the potential to be really annoying in the future, vut for now, well just wait n see.


Alomola imo is a fantastic pokemon in the tier, with its Regenerator ability, solid defensive type in mono Water, high HP, and of course Wish. In previous generations, it had niches because of all these traits, especially those big wishes, however now it can effectively wishpass far more reliably thanks to the access of Flip Turn. This has been paired with many pokes to great effect, like Mega Ttar for example. Its also offently paired with other mons with Regenerator like Tornadus-Therian and Galarian Slowking, granting insane longevity over the course of a game. It also has a solid utility movepool, with access to Scald for potential burns, Toxic for poison, and Knock Off for item removal. There are ways to beat it of course, while it HP is massive, its defense is a bit below average with only 80. But thanks to that high HP, its defense stats is just fine, what is not so fine its that mediocre 45 spdef, meaning that is easy to pick up on that side of the attacking spectrum. Of course the teambuilder should have this in mind amd pair it with a special wall to make most of its talent. Galar Slowking is an excellent partner for this reason, not just for its Regenerator core, but its high spdef. Alomola tends to pair well on a variety of archetypes, from Stall, to Fat, to Balance, to Bulky Offense. Overall i think Alomomola is in a perfect position in the meta rn.


This is one of the few mon i been hearing to be a bit controversial. Tapu Lele has always been a fantastic pokemon since gen 7, with solid typing, stats and its ability Psychic Surge, allowing to summon Psychic Terrain upon entering a battle. The terrain alone is fantastic, as it provides a passive ability to cancel out priority moves, these includes attacks like Bullet Punch and Fake Out, and even other niches like Prankster. It also gives Psychic moves a 30% boost, which makes it very effective on a certain archetype called "PsychicSpam". But even outside of that archetype, Tapu Lele's stats are also good, with 130 special attack, 115 spdef, and 95 speed. The most common Tapu Lele set is that of a Choice Scarfer, as it's speed makes it pretty good for the role. But it ocassionally runs a Choice Specs instead, as its high attack can also make it a great user of the item at the cost of speed control. Another rare set is that of a Fightinium Z set, as it can allow to handles mons like Mega Ttar expecting to wall a choice locked move. Before the Gholdengo ban, Gholdengo was a pretty solid answer to Tapu Lele, as it resisted both STABs, was immune to Focus Blast, and didn't took much from the likes of Shadow Ball or Hidden Power Fire. But after the ban, there isn't a 100% true counter, at least many believe. Blissey and Chansey can take its hits well, until it reveals Psyshock, Empoleon can resists its STABs, but doesn't like the idea of taking Focus Blast. Corviknight does decently well, until Lele uses Thunderbolt. It's also pretty annoying with the move Future Sight, which after 2 turns, the opponent has to contend with one of your incoming moves AND a 120 base power Special Psychic attack. But this also leads to Tapu Lele having a four move syndrome, so if you manage to scout the coverage, you might be able to react accordingly. However, its still an incredible pokemon, some even consider it banworthy, but imo, this could be the case of a necesary evil, as its terrain gives a solid security against priority from the likes of Mega Scizor, Mega Lopunny, Greninja and more. I am not trying to say it has to stay, but it does provide something solid to a team that no other mon can do reliably. (And no, Indeedee doesn't count.)

 

[Wildfiree]

Hello I wanted to talk about being potentially problematic. This Mon has a very respectable speed tier at 110. Being able to run SD and set up and hit with strong stabs such as ivy cudgel and horn leech.For an offensive Mon it has respectable defensive utility having water absorb making it able to disrupt alomomola cores making it not able to flip turn and giving it opportunities to Sd. Also access to encore makes this Mon pretty difficult to wall. Also getting fighting coverage either lowkick or superpower. Probably not now but I def see this Mon being looked at in the future.

 

[Patar136]

Would like to post about a Pokemon that is underappreciated.

No this is not a joke. Hear me out. Yes, there is Clodsire. Yes, there is Dondozo. But what happens when you fuse Dondozo and Clodsire? You get Quagsire. Why use this joke Pokemon on your stall team? Well, here are some good points.

Electric Immunity: Clodsire gets this too but Quagsire really appreciates being simultaneously immune to electric and only neutral damage from ground and psychic attacks. Plus, it's only real loss compared to clodsire is being vulnerable to toxic and a 4x grass weakness. However, both of these can be removed by Tera Poison which gives you the toxic immunity and now lets you absorb Toxic Spikes. And even if you don't Tera, water/ground is one of the best type combinations in the entire game and can definitely help your stall team with switching around.

Hazard Setting: This is where it shines over Dondozo. Thanks to its role compression, you can have Quagsire take on the role of both a Stealth Rock setter and an Unaware wall that packs water typing. Like Clodsire, you also have both Toxic Spikes and Spikes to add as well.

Scald: The one move that Clodsire lacks is a great factor for Quagsire as Scald is very irritating for your opponent to switch into. Ferrothorn, Rillaboom and all sorts of things all wanna come in and scare Quagsire out. Except they have to worry about an unfortunate scald burn which allows your stall team to rack up damage. And you can slap in Toxic if you don't want to pack Toxic Spikes to have the option of spreading dual status. Favorable match ups against Heatran, Landorus and Garchomp are all bonus points that help you in the battle of attrition.

Quagsire isn't perfect and probably belongs in National Dex UU but I encourage people to try out this mudfish. Because it's not as bad as your perceptions may make it seem. While you can run Dondozo and Clodsire, running Quagsire as a hybrid can help you free up teambuilding and I have had success with this little guy. Here's the team I have been trying.

https://pokepast.es/5985cbb2f7b0ae7e

 

[SandySubway]

I would like to throw a bone into this whole “Sneasler suspect test” thing and say that I noticed Substitute Aegislash is a pretty good counter for it. Not only can Aegislash take a +2 acro after Sneasler loses its item, but it also dies in two Shadow Balls. I’m not sure how good this information is right now, but it’s what I’ve seen while playing NatDex lately. Unless Sneasler is using one of those uncommon sets with like Night Slash or Shadow Claw, Aegislash can be really good into it. Any thoughts?

 

[R8]

I would like to throw a bone into this whole “Sneasler suspect test” thing and say that I noticed Substitute Aegislash is a pretty good counter for it. Not only can Aegislash take a +2 acro after Sneasler loses its item, but it also dies in two Shadow Balls. I’m not sure how good this information is right now, but it’s what I’ve seen while playing NatDex lately. Unless Sneasler is using one of those uncommon sets with like Night Slash or Shadow Claw, Aegislash can be really good into it. Any thoughts?

aegi is a meh mon in general and has to win mindgames with king shield vs swords dance to actually 1v1 it, considering shadow ball doesn't kill sneasler, and the blade form make it vulnerable

 

[SandySubway]

Even so, it has a fighting chance. It really depends on when you get Aegislash in to be fair since an acro Sneasler with tera flying can 4 hit KO it. But that’s Aegislash-Blade. Sneasler will always out speed Aegislash which gives Aegislash a higher chance to live the hits while still in Shield form. Although I will admit mind games isn’t really a consistent way to win those. So yeah, I guess this is just wishful thinking at this point, I’m not sure.

 

[Aesiro13]

I would like to add to the above discussion with the fact that Sneasler also has Fire Punch and Night Slash, both of which making Aegislash unable to survive Sneasler's attacks long enough to defeat it without a King's Shield attack drop, and even then SD Sneasler can easily exploit this and setup without risk.

 

[Moyashi]

Even so, it has a fighting chance. It really depends on when you get Aegislash in to be fair since an acro Sneasler with tera flying can 4 hit KO it. But that’s Aegislash-Blade. Sneasler will always out speed Aegislash which gives Aegislash a higher chance to live the hits while still in Shield form. Although I will admit mind games isn’t really a consistent way to win those. So yeah, I guess this is just wishful thinking at this point, I’m not sure.

Having to rely on winning king shield mindgames is the definition of unreliable. I've used Aegislash to try and handle Sneasler (and compress a lele check on top of it) but it's just a very mediocre pokemon that is difficult to fit on teams and generally just underperforms.

 

[Patar136]

Sneasler also does well against the Unaware Pokemon. Sure Dondozo and the rare Quagsire can stop it if they haven't been severely chipped, and both can even go Tera Poison to avoid getting worn down by Close Combats. Of the unaware Pokemon, Quagsire actually does the best if you can believe it since Dondozo wants to be Tera Fairy or Dragon while Quagsire's preferred Tera is Poison from my experimentation which matches up the best against most Sneasler movesets. If you are lucky you can use Toxic on Tera Flying Sneasler which is pretty funny but hard to do. However, Dire Claw RNG shenanigans can mess with this strategy and once in, these Unaware Pokemon can't exactly switch out into anything very easily at all. And if the Unaware Pokemon can't handle a set up sweeper that might be a sign that this Pokemon is unhealthy.

Also reason I am saying Quagsire instead of Clodsire, besides my love for Quag, is that it has better physical bulk.

 

[Aesiro13]

For an unrelated topic starter, what Pokemon do you think are fairly viable but overlooked in the current meta?

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Sneasler also does well against the Unaware Pokemon. Sure Dondozo and the rare Quagsire can stop it if they haven't been severely chipped, and both can even go Tera Poison to avoid getting worn down by Close Combats. Of the unaware Pokemon, Quagsire actually does the best if you can believe it since Dondozo wants to be Tera Fairy or Dragon while Quagsire's preferred Tera is Poison from my experimentation which matches up the best against most Sneasler movesets. If you are lucky you can use Toxic on Tera Flying Sneasler which is pretty funny but hard to do. However, Dire Claw RNG shenanigans can mess with this strategy and once in, these Unaware Pokemon can't exactly switch out into anything very easily at all. And if the Unaolware Pokemon can't handle a set up sweeper that might be a sign that this Pokemon is unhealthy.

Also reason I am saying Quagsire instead of Clodsire, besides my love for Quag, is that it has better physical bulk.

Well you clearly forgot the best Unaware for the job, Skeledirge. Not only does Dirge have a solid bulk with 104 hp and 100 defense, it also handles Sneasler's stab combo naturally, as it resist Poison and it's immune to Fighting. Even Night Slash wouldn't OHKO even if it crits...
252+ Atk Sneasler Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge on a critical hit: 182-216 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Not to mention Night Slash is incredibly rare since most sets run Acrobatics...)
After that, Dirge can simply burn it with Will-O-Wisp and permanetly ruin Sneasler. The only thing worth worrying about is Dire Claw RNG, as with an unlucky sleep or paraflinches, Sneasler could beat it, but even that scenario is not that likely...

 

[Patar136]

I did forget about Skeledirge. And that is better than Quagsire against Sneasler. But you have to admit, Quagsire is probably second behind in terms of checking Sneasler.

For an unrelated topic starter, what Pokemon do you think are fairly viable but overlooked in the current meta?

I will probably work on creating a list that describes each. But one that is viable but overlooked is definitely Blaziken. Blaziken gets the job done when your opponent doesn't expect it as it CAN destroy an entire team if given the support to sweep. Definitely underrated.

 

[Oculars]

I did forget about Skeledirge. And that is better than Quagsire against Sneasler. But you have to admit, Quagsire is probably second behind in terms of checking Sneasler.

252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Hello I wanted to talk about being potentially problematic. This Mon has a very respectable speed tier at 110. Being able to run SD and set up and hit with strong stabs such as ivy cudgel and horn leech.For an offensive Mon it has respectable defensive utility having water absorb making it able to disrupt alomomola cores making it not able to flip turn and giving it opportunities to Sd. Also access to encore makes this Mon pretty difficult to wall. Also getting fighting coverage either lowkick or superpower. Probably not now but I def see this Mon being looked at in the future.

This is why you run

, its combination of strength sap and matcha gotcha annoys Ogerpon-Wellspring without really caring about anything outside of knock off.

 

[ssuperiority]

Is aegislash actually decent or is it just being used as a sneasler check? What about ursaluna, there's been more set experimentation outside of the usual flame Orb 3a but is it good enough to be a proper ou mon?

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Is aegislash actually decent or is it just being used as a sneasler check? What about ursaluna, there's been more set experimentation outside of the usual flame Orb 3a but is it good enough to be a proper ou mon?

No to all three questions from what I know. Aegislash is simply a UU mon nowadays while Ursaluna is niche enough in a role filled with fantastic alternatives (the bulky ground) that it will not get enough usage to be OU proper.

 

[Oculars]

Is aegislash actually decent or is it just being used as a sneasler check? What about ursaluna, there's been more set experimentation outside of the usual flame Orb 3a but is it good enough to be a proper ou mon?

Aegislash is cope for gholdengo ban
Ursaluna is a fantastic mon and one of the hardest breakers to wall right now in the tier. unlike what most people think its not competition for the bulky ground slot, its competition for the offensive ground slot with the likes of SD garchomp, SD landorus therian. Luna is best played as a suicide breaker behind screens, max speed with webs support, or bulky and slow with wish support from alomomola.

 

[Kyo]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-8-sneasler.3732175/post-9881800
Sneasler banned ^