p sure its not because of that lol, generational mechanic sure is a buzzword with no meaning that has nothing to do on wether something gets banned or not
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter R8
- Start date
dlc happened between the test and the qb, so different metas. add on to the fact that there was an error in the test its much more justified in that scenario than this one.
Back in the day to ban a Pokemon you need 60% of the voting pool rather than the players who actually voted. In other words if you didn't vote it was basically a do not ban vote. This mean't that the actual people who voted was above 60% but factoring in the voter pool it was like 58/59%. This problem got resolved here.
Since it was basically 60% the council felt empowered to make the move regardless.
The DLC shifts made it much more clear that Mega Metagross was unhealthy. And tera is a generational mechanic
In the case of Metagross, it was overcentralized, but was not really HEALTHY for the metagame, which was clear. Kingambit does have SOME degree of overcentralization, but, it provides quite a lot of offensive answers to the meta. I don't think a quickban would do it right, even IF I think a ban would lead to better metagame health. Kingambit is the offensive glue to the meta, and shifting the meta so much isn't something to let happen after a quickban, but I do PERSONALLY approve of it being banned, and if a suspect is held, it is likely to be banned
Thank goodness for that. I was sick of seeing that argument by people who defend tera.
I wanted to express my opinion on a specific meta topic.
T.E.R.A.S.T.A.L
I already advance that I don't think this mechanic should be banned, but that it should be limited in some way. It's already clear that, despite several 'suspect tests', terastal is a mechanic that can give you a lot of headaches, and that it can often be a factor that makes you lose entire matches just for "oh he used tera X or Y and I lost the game". And this gets to be very annoying, because sometimes you are a few steps away from winning and losing because of the mechanics.
But even with that, I see that, like me, there are players who don't want to be banned, but see that something has to be done.
. . .
(I admit that I was trying to make a beautiful and organized text, but it takes a lot of work, and I don't have the patience for it)
You can see that making a suspect doesn't result in much, I didn't follow any suspect test on Tera to know the results and opinions of the other players who participated. But doing 2 suspects on one thing, both resulted in free use of the mechanic, and yet players complain? There's something wrong there.
I think instead of banning it, we should limit the mechanics. One of the most basic things, and which, particularly, I think should already be on PS, is terastal in Team Preview, this obviously wouldn't be a solution, but it would lessen the problem of not knowing what you're fighting (and lessen the headaches of head), besides that would already help a lot. In case the problem still lasted, another solution that I've seen mentioned is to limit the amount of pokemon that can use Tera, limit it to 1, 2, or even 3 pokemon (I admit that I don't really like this second ""solution"")
Again I say, doing new suspect tests doesn't seem like it's going to accomplish anything. We're going to get stuck in a cycle where, players complain > suspect > suspect says tera will remain open > players complain.
Well, it's just my opinion, it was a pretty bad text, even more so because I'm using google translator (I still haven't mastered the use of written English). But well, I believe that tera should be limited in some way, but it should be limited, not banned
sorry if the text got long
T.E.R.A.S.T.A.L
I already advance that I don't think this mechanic should be banned, but that it should be limited in some way. It's already clear that, despite several 'suspect tests', terastal is a mechanic that can give you a lot of headaches, and that it can often be a factor that makes you lose entire matches just for "oh he used tera X or Y and I lost the game". And this gets to be very annoying, because sometimes you are a few steps away from winning and losing because of the mechanics.
But even with that, I see that, like me, there are players who don't want to be banned, but see that something has to be done.
. . .
(I admit that I was trying to make a beautiful and organized text, but it takes a lot of work, and I don't have the patience for it)
You can see that making a suspect doesn't result in much, I didn't follow any suspect test on Tera to know the results and opinions of the other players who participated. But doing 2 suspects on one thing, both resulted in free use of the mechanic, and yet players complain? There's something wrong there.
I think instead of banning it, we should limit the mechanics. One of the most basic things, and which, particularly, I think should already be on PS, is terastal in Team Preview, this obviously wouldn't be a solution, but it would lessen the problem of not knowing what you're fighting (and lessen the headaches of head), besides that would already help a lot. In case the problem still lasted, another solution that I've seen mentioned is to limit the amount of pokemon that can use Tera, limit it to 1, 2, or even 3 pokemon (I admit that I don't really like this second ""solution"")
Again I say, doing new suspect tests doesn't seem like it's going to accomplish anything. We're going to get stuck in a cycle where, players complain > suspect > suspect says tera will remain open > players complain.
Well, it's just my opinion, it was a pretty bad text, even more so because I'm using google translator (I still haven't mastered the use of written English). But well, I believe that tera should be limited in some way, but it should be limited, not banned
sorry if the text got long
while tera at team preview on paper seems like it'd work, most of the time it's quite easy to tell which tera type a mon is just by looking at it, and most of the time the various types that a pokemon can use don't really change what it does (ie tera flying vs fairy on kingambit, both have the same main benefit of resisting fighting type moves) the main issue that terastalization causes, in my opinion mainly centers around the builder. I believe so because while your team may have a good answer to a ghost z dragapult, does it have a good answer vs tera fighting tblast pult? specs pult? wisphex? the main thing tera does in the current national dex format is massively multiply the amount of threats we have to deal with, as pokemon can play drastically differently depending on their tera types, which primarily puts pressure on the teambuilder. All tera preview does in this case is let me know when I can just forfeit on matchup because I brought a counter for tera dark sd gambit but not one for tera flying gambit
also please let me know if any of this is caused due to translation issues, as I could be grossly misinterpreting the post here
alongside, if there's anything you want me to elaborate on further, feel free to let me know and I'll probably respond to it
(you flip the page over)
(real sorry if this post format isn't allowed, wanted to be a lil creative with my proposal)
Pokemon that cannot be transferred to any mainline games cannot exist in National Dex - that is just how the format is currently defined. The idea was briefly mentioned when the identity of the format was discussed at the beginning of the generation but didn't make it basically because their illegality isn't related to dexit in the first place - not like they would leave any impact at all anyway /shrug
depending on how spiteful I will be at reading this tommorow, the lucid me may dispute this (well-knowing that my influence on this has as much strength as a small fly has when trying to push a heavy boulder) on the NatDex discord tomorrow so I can answer and ask questions in real time (as well as understand your decision better so I can make peace with it). For now though, the sleepy me will have to make do with some heavy breathing.
(please dont be offended by my response: I do not mean any harm, I simply (as much as I hate it) am more productive under spite.)
update: not spiteful, just depressed. Won’t be barging in the server any time soon.
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This is a very lovely read and I 100% agree. I don't care about any "this post is better suited for the PR forum" when I don't have those perms anyway. But to be fair it won't be the most idiotic thing posted in there due to something natdex related.
Also calling LGPE not main line games is stupid because they were heavily marketed and sold shit tons, a non main line game is something like Snap. And besides it not like these pokemon don't have complete movepools or completely different mechanics like the case of Legend Arceus' pokemon. And its all of those special moves are already implemented on the simulator so yeah.
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To clarify, what is meant by "main line game" is pretty much any game "hosting" the current gen OU, as the point of National Dex is to emulate what OU would be if dexit was not a thing.
This will be fixed, ty for pointing it out
Just wanted to throw my two cents into the fray since I have been playing more games and have a lot to say.
1.) Rain Teams are solid as always and are a fun playstyle. They def are not overcentralizing or too broken because most players have realized that you need some bulky water resists. If you don't have them, it's just a bad team in general as stuff like Greninja, Urshifu and others just trash your team anyways. People have found ways both to maximize them and limit their effectiveness.
2.) Sun teams are fun for much of the same reasons with Great Tusk being the glue that cements the style into greatness, allowing Charizard, Volcarona, Heatran, Moltres, and various other abusers to go to town. Additionally they have good match ups against rain when they can play their cards right, with some Charizard even throwing on Ancient Power just to beat Pelipper after SR and to beat opposing Charizard.
3.) Trick Room is quite fun to play, as the emphasis on trying to be as fast as possible can work in TR's favor. So far abusers include Mega-Mawile, Mega-Camerupt, Kingambit, Specs Torkoal, A-Marowak and plenty more in my experimentation. I even got some good success with Sunflora of all things alongside Torkoal. Def think the style works if you can overcome its limitations.
And maybe I'm alone on this, maybe not, but bring back Ursaluna. Because the way that was handled seems ridiculous and unpopular.
1.) Rain Teams are solid as always and are a fun playstyle. They def are not overcentralizing or too broken because most players have realized that you need some bulky water resists. If you don't have them, it's just a bad team in general as stuff like Greninja, Urshifu and others just trash your team anyways. People have found ways both to maximize them and limit their effectiveness.
2.) Sun teams are fun for much of the same reasons with Great Tusk being the glue that cements the style into greatness, allowing Charizard, Volcarona, Heatran, Moltres, and various other abusers to go to town. Additionally they have good match ups against rain when they can play their cards right, with some Charizard even throwing on Ancient Power just to beat Pelipper after SR and to beat opposing Charizard.
3.) Trick Room is quite fun to play, as the emphasis on trying to be as fast as possible can work in TR's favor. So far abusers include Mega-Mawile, Mega-Camerupt, Kingambit, Specs Torkoal, A-Marowak and plenty more in my experimentation. I even got some good success with Sunflora of all things alongside Torkoal. Def think the style works if you can overcome its limitations.
And maybe I'm alone on this, maybe not, but bring back Ursaluna. Because the way that was handled seems ridiculous and unpopular.
With the ban of Kingambit, the metagame is sure to change drastically as it was both a warping presence and an important defensive part of various teams. While this does obviously make Dragapult much better than it already was, and it's a mon we should keep an eye on as the metagame develops, I also think a fair amount of mons get better from the ban of Kingambit. Keep in mind these are just my own personal opinions and I'm probably (definitely) wrong.
WINNERS
It was really tough, or felt really tough to get consistent mileage out of offensive psychics due to their tendency of being pursuit trapped by Kingambit. Lele was still very good in a good player's hands, but other psychics fely hard to justify due to the risk. Stuff like the Mega Latis have nice defensive utility and I know some people experimented with them like sub two attacks mega latios, but now they have more room to experiment and see use. I also thing specs Latios will be much stronger thanks to Tera dragon dracos no longer being easy to punish with pursuit. Lele also has more freedom to run specs again... For better or worse.
Ghost types were similarly held back by Kingambit and feel much stronger in a post Kingambit metagame. Gholdengo can run bulkier sets to check major targets now and not risk getting instantly removed, especially now no longer needing to run fighting coverage to try and fight back. Basculegion meanwhile feels like an amazing addition to rain, BascuF in particular due to the special breaking power and unique defensive utility it brings. I don't know if other ghosts will see a ton of usage though.
More general Pokemon also appreciate the Gambit ban. TornadusT felt like it was very easy to get trapped and chipped hard by pursuit, while often inviting Gambit in to exert pressure so it feels a bit better as a pivot and defogger again (try nasty plot defog sets btw). Weavile also felt somewhat weak to Gambit due to the hazard vulnerability and Gambit getting entry on both stabs, so it could be forced to take pursuit chip on the way out. Weavile I think has potential to be very solid in the new post Gambit meta.
I'm honestly not sure if there are any real losers for this ban tbh. I guess Iron Hands loses a target it could check easily, but while laddering for reqs and using an Iron Hands team I noticed it could still put in a lot of work even in non Gambit match ups. Particularly Tera water or grass is great to help the rain and sun match up a fair bit. I think Garganacl also gets a little better since there's one fewer mons that can put a lot of pressure on it quickly.
Interested in hearing the thoughts of other players though. Any mons that you think are better/worse in the meta post Kingambit?
WINNERS
It was really tough, or felt really tough to get consistent mileage out of offensive psychics due to their tendency of being pursuit trapped by Kingambit. Lele was still very good in a good player's hands, but other psychics fely hard to justify due to the risk. Stuff like the Mega Latis have nice defensive utility and I know some people experimented with them like sub two attacks mega latios, but now they have more room to experiment and see use. I also thing specs Latios will be much stronger thanks to Tera dragon dracos no longer being easy to punish with pursuit. Lele also has more freedom to run specs again... For better or worse.
Ghost types were similarly held back by Kingambit and feel much stronger in a post Kingambit metagame. Gholdengo can run bulkier sets to check major targets now and not risk getting instantly removed, especially now no longer needing to run fighting coverage to try and fight back. Basculegion meanwhile feels like an amazing addition to rain, BascuF in particular due to the special breaking power and unique defensive utility it brings. I don't know if other ghosts will see a ton of usage though.
More general Pokemon also appreciate the Gambit ban. TornadusT felt like it was very easy to get trapped and chipped hard by pursuit, while often inviting Gambit in to exert pressure so it feels a bit better as a pivot and defogger again (try nasty plot defog sets btw). Weavile also felt somewhat weak to Gambit due to the hazard vulnerability and Gambit getting entry on both stabs, so it could be forced to take pursuit chip on the way out. Weavile I think has potential to be very solid in the new post Gambit meta.
I'm honestly not sure if there are any real losers for this ban tbh. I guess Iron Hands loses a target it could check easily, but while laddering for reqs and using an Iron Hands team I noticed it could still put in a lot of work even in non Gambit match ups. Particularly Tera water or grass is great to help the rain and sun match up a fair bit. I think Garganacl also gets a little better since there's one fewer mons that can put a lot of pressure on it quickly.
Interested in hearing the thoughts of other players though. Any mons that you think are better/worse in the meta post Kingambit?
good post, love to talk somewhat briefly about the
holy shit this thing is annoying
to call dragapult hard to build around is an insult to the term building. you need 2 checks for this thing bare minimum, and they need to be at basically full hp throughout a game or they will stop being checks very quickly. it's able to provide either incredibly potent stab options with dragon darts, specs draco meteor or shadow ball, as well as being able to hold up incredible momentum with u turn
so anyways, how's our main check to dragapult doing?
oh.
so yeah dragapult just got really dangerous really fast, id expect SOMETHING coming later this week, but until then prepare yourself for some real fun times with ladder
now, let's get into the meat and potatoes of the post, im going to list some of the pult "checks" by both how easy they are to slot on a team and how effective they are at actually answering pult
HOW TO BEAT DRAGAPULT:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Salt Cure
- Recover
good ol tera fairy ironpress garg, with fairy + purifying salt, you're basically completely untouchable to pult, if it's sub ddance you can just set up alongside it with iron defense or threaten a nasty amount of chip with salt cure
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Encore
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
cm encore ival seems like a neat cplay option, if pult ddances on the switchin you're kinda fucked, as well as if it clicks sball, but otherwise you're able to encore it into whatever dragon move it just clicked and use that oppurtunity to set up a cm or two, somewhat unreliable, but still a decent option
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
mtar seems pretty solid into pult, as its able to pursuit it while being a ghost resist, main issue is it struggles with longlevity a lot, alongside its 4x fighting weakness meaning you're in for a rough match if the pult is tblast fighting, alongside its tendency to get worn down by hazards and pult endlessly pivots in and out until you're chipped enough to die to tera specs draco
Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock/Spikes
- Ruination
- Whirlwind
uu's resident toilet bowl is here to save the day, with its resistance to ghost moves and its just obscene natural bulk, ting lu is able to brute force its way though pult with eq and leftovers, and is also able to whirlwind it out to stop any setup it may have done, has a lot of the same issues as mtar however, with its tendency to get worn down by rocks and spikes a lot as well as being weak to status or specific sets (tblast fighting)
Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
this seems like major cope, which is why im putting it kinda low on paper this works about as well as kingambit did as a pult check, which as you'd know if you played the metagame was not very well sometimes, a lot of the issues reg gambit had but it can't hold an item so its harder to apply well
Audino-Mega @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower
this pokemon definitely beats pretty much every pult set, but is also taking up a mega slot and doesn't do much else outside of the mu, making it a hard sell to 99% of teams
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Water/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Gentle Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
the only reason why im even giving this pokemon the light of day is because senko mentioned it as a joke when I asked for any answers to pult. never ever run this pokemon it probably still somehow loses to pult even though it's literally immune to most of its moves
This is pure conjecture based on my experience in OU, but I think Rain and Sun teams will get better. Gambit's strong priority is a really useful tool vs these teams. I'd argue the Sucker Punch mindgames were largely in its favor too since regardless of what the opponent did to "outplay" Sucker Punch (i.e. Switch out), Rain / Sun turns were wasted. Trick Room teams probably benefit too for similar reasons. Mostly speaking out of my ass here since I don't play this tier that much + there are a few Rain / Sun abusers here that standard play doesn't have, like Urshifu, so it may not be as big of a plus as I make it out to be.
wynaut curse over iron defense?Curse boosts attack too sure slower but it lets u break sub vs pult after few dds letting u save a few saltcure pp.good post, love to talk somewhat briefly about theelephantdragon in the room, dragapult
holy shit this thing is annoying
to call dragapult hard to build around is an insult to the term building. you need 2 checks for this thing bare minimum, and they need to be at basically full hp throughout a game or they will stop being checks very quickly. it's able to provide either incredibly potent stab options with dragon darts, specs draco meteor or shadow ball, as well as being able to hold up incredible momentum with u turn
so anyways, how's our main check to dragapult doing?
oh.
so yeah dragapult just got really dangerous really fast, id expect SOMETHING coming later this week, but until then prepare yourself for some real fun times with ladder
now, let's get into the meat and potatoes of the post, im going to list some of the pult "checks" by both how easy they are to slot on a team and how effective they are at actually answering pult
HOW TO BEAT DRAGAPULT:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Salt Cure
- Recover
Mainly because curse making you slower is pretty bad against stuff like toxapex while also having fewer PP, making you worse in a long game (bad for garganacl)
gbs is right here, while id also just lets you set up faster meaning you're taking a lot less damage from ddance sets
Despite being its biggest enemy, Gambit was also Pult's best friend. With Gambit gone...good luck to Pult escaping a ban.
The question is, whether it gets quickbanned or suspect test.
The question is, whether it gets quickbanned or suspect test.
really hope it's a qb, ssnl is happening right now and I'd really like it if pult stayed in the metagame for as short a time as possible
I see a lot of talk about Dragapult, but what about Gholdengo? That mon is just as obnoxious if not even more annoying, it has an incredibly customisable kit that is just insane with terastallisation and even z-moves.