Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[TheReal274]

Hi everybody, longtime lurker first time poster. I just started playing this metagame today and I'm curious about peoples' opinion on something. I've noticed CB Dracovish with Tailwind support is all over the place and it seems to be extremely strong and borderline unhealthy. Even max Def Slowbro is barely a check as it is 2HKOed after rocks, and viable offensive counterplay seems to be quite limited. If it gets in while Tailwind is up, it seems like it's almost guaranteed a kill. Is this something that has been discussed? How do I answer this without constraining my own teambuilding?

 

[GScross]

Hey, hello, I wanted to talk about the pokemon that was also a problem in the SS OU, Dracovish.

He has two main setsu, one with choiseband and one with choisescarf. With scarf he ends up being faster than the main monsters of the tier like lopunny-mega, metagross-mega, being alakazan the only mega faster than him. obviously you can work around this problem with another choisescarf, tangrowth, slowbro, ferrothorn, which are very common things in the tier.

But what I really want to talk about is the choiseBand set. this set very strong, making many of your checks suffer to deal with it

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Tapu Fini: 228-269 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

when tapu fini is slower than Dracovish


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 179-211 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

this is considerable damage


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

rip toxapex. . .


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

see what Dracovish does with tangrowth


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


and even more, the damage only gets worse in the rain

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth in Rain: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 269-317 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Tapu Fini in Rain: 342-403 (99.7 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don't think it should be banned, but Dracovish is very unpredictable, despite having only two sets, but until you get close to the set, some pokemon will fall

 

[Cuddly]

Hey, hello, I wanted to talk about the pokemon that was also a problem in the SS OU, Dracovish.

He has two main setsu, one with choiseband and one with choisescarf. With scarf he ends up being faster than the main monsters of the tier like lopunny-mega, metagross-mega, being alakazan the only mega faster than him. obviously you can work around this problem with another choisescarf, tangrowth, slowbro, ferrothorn, which are very common things in the tier.

But what I really want to talk about is the choiseBand set. this set very strong, making many of your checks suffer to deal with it

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Tapu Fini: 228-269 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

when tapu fini is slower than Dracovish


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 179-211 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

this is considerable damage


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

rip toxapex. . .


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

see what Dracovish does with tangrowth


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


and even more, the damage only gets worse in the rain

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth in Rain: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 269-317 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Tapu Fini in Rain: 342-403 (99.7 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don't think it should be banned, but Dracovish is very unpredictable, despite having only two sets, but until you get close to the set, some pokemon will fall

I have used Dracovish before in Rain teams and it’s definitely a force to be reckoned with. A lot of Pokemon can check Mega Swampert, Ash-Greninja, and Dracovish, but not all at the same time, especially not when Rain is up. With there being very little things that can beat this core defensively, it’s nice to know you have some great speed control as well. Having the best Swift Swimmer, Ash Greninja, and even priority (also possibly Tailwind support), something short of Mega Alakazam abusing Swift Swim is going to catch you off guard, but even then, Ash Greinja still has a Rain Boosted Water Shuriken, which only has a 6.2% to fail OHKOing Alakazam.

 

[Jho]

We thought it was important to have a strong council right now with the DLC fast approaching, so please welcome Zneon to the NatDex council! I'm sure many of you know them for being extremely knowledgeable of the meta and offering help to people looking to learn, and these traits are what we think will make Zneon an excellent addition to the team. Congrats to them!

 

[Sputnik]

Chances are, if you have been playing National Dex lately, you have been seeing A LOT of these three. The meta has evolved into a state where Hippo/Pex/Drei balance is by far the most effective playstyle, as it just covers so much of the offensive metagame right now.

With that in mind, there are a few offensive sets that I think should be explored in greater detail. Not only do they pressure this specific core, but they are also just good in general.


Kyurem @ Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Roost

Kyurem slaps right now. SubRoost has been a thorn in the side of most of our balances thanks to the introduction of Freeze-Dry to its movepool, and this one is no exception. It's very easy to get a lot of mileage out of at the moment.

However, the rise in Baneful Bunker Toxapex sets, as well as the changed Metronome mechanics is annoying for this set. It certainly isn't a dealbreaker by any means, but between Recover, Baneful Bunker, and Regenerator, Toxapex, ironically, becomes very annoying for this Kyurem set. Therefore...

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam / Focus Blast

Choice Specs Kyurem was always a functional wallbreaker, and honestly most teams had major problems switching into it. It's main issue was that there was very little reason to use it over SubRoost; SubRoost was less prediction reliant and in the end of the day wasn't that much worse at breaking teams down.

But Specs has a chance to rise again thanks to Baneful Bunker Toxapex becoming a legitimate threat. Specs Kyurem is still extremely hard to switch into, and Freeze Dry is still really good. This set also has the added benefit of a nuclear Draco Meteor, which is pretty tough to switch into. The last move is mostly filler, with Ice Beam doing more to certain targets like Corviknight, while Focus Blast hits Tyranitar. SubRoost Kyurem is still a superior option, but Specs now has a legitimate purpose to fill, and, again, it was never bad at all.


Heatran @ Steelium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock

Honestly Grassium Z Heatran has been my favorite Heatran set in this meta for a long time, and if I were to pick a candidate for "most underutilized set" it would probably be Grassium. Grassium is still really good right now, but the rise in Hydreigon is hampering that set a little bit.

Steelium does not have that problem, or at least not to the same extent. It still doesn't really like seeing Hydreigon, since NP just Earth Powers you and Scarf U-turns out (although the Magma Storm chip is nice), but Steelium does give you an opportunity to nuke it, as a raw Corkscrew Crash OHKOs after Stealth Rock. Steelium also still beats both Hippowdon and Toxapex, and it can soft check Torn while setting Stealth Rock, which is also very nice in this meta. The rise of Mega Tyranitar means that Steelium has even more prey as well. Tapu Fini might look like a problem at first, but if Tapu Fini attempts to pivot into a Magma Storm after even minimal chip its in trouble. This set is strictly worse against Slowbro and Alomomola unfortunately, and if a Rotom-Wash shows up you're gonna be annoyed to no end, but Steelium abuses the current balance builds quite well.

One Last Thing


Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Mild / Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide / Toxic

I'm not about to advocate for the ranking of Mega Camerupt in the current state of affairs, but it's something to keep an eye on if the metagame swings a certain direction. This thing still checks all of what made it somewhat viable in last generations OU, and it has the incredibly nice trait of hard checking Rotom-H and Bulkarona. I've had success with it on a couple of builds that benefitted from its incredibly specific set of strengths. It will never become a staple of the metagame, but its a powerful breaker with a good offensive typing, and the defensive utility definitely exists, so if the meta ever swings in a direction where Fairy / Steel offense is defining this could be worth checking out.

 

[Robot7620]

Following SputnikGT 's examples I have been exploring a lot of ways to effectively beat hippopexdrei and from my experience here are a couple of mons that annoy this core a lot:

Mtios is amazing rn. It is an excellent balance breaker which is what natdex is infested with rn. Not much switches into psychic/ground/ice coverage and it shits on hippo pex drei. There are a few that can switch in like corv and msciz but corv loses to t-bolt (which loses to heatran though :/)
Leaving a bit outdated team that i posted in the bazaar but it can function alr (plus it has scarf rak which is a +)
https://pokepast.es/6ce0e2e8300bf684
+
banded kart is incredibly fun rn.
It thrives on stuff like hippo pex ferro or hippo pex clef and ofc hippo pex drei.
Very little that is common rn can actually switchin, those being corv, msciz, tang, and mvenu ( to an extent)
It forces a lot of 50/50s and additionally the grass resist in hippo pex drei is hydreigon which is worn down very easily with rocks up if scarf and if it is NP sacred sword just blows it away.

set

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
- Smart Strike

https://pokepast.es/cb74699c34bc26c2
I'll leave here a sample team which is by no means perfect but it is decent outside of the magnezone MU (also don't run into stall )

brief description

When looking for things that lure msciz, corv, and tang, (and more specifically force toxic onto tang) I needed something with fire coverage and toxic that didn't normally run it. Tank chomp fit the bill. Able to 2hko msciz and tang (and additinally force toxic onto tang) it really helps with so that kart can muscle through these checks.
Z torn also helps vs hippo pex drei b/c it lack of flying resists hurts and it also lures msciz and corv via heat wave.
The rest is somewhat standard except for unaware clef which is necessary counterplay to dd pult and SD chomp.

+ + taunt
I have been really enjoying z move torn + taunt. Stall really struggles to find counterplay for this and what with knocking chansey's eviolite and preventing recovery w/ taunt it just eases the stall MU a whole lot. Additionally it just absolutely shits on hippopex w/ taunt as hippo cannot do anything and pex just sits there and hopes for a burn before it gets forced to switch.

set

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Defog / U-turn

I not made an up-to-date team that I find consistent but you should definitely try this.
And last but absolutely not least we have my favorite, reuniclus.

Reuniclus is so good rn. It shits on common balance cores such as hippo pex and hippo pex drei if your running CM + 2 atks ( which is my personal favorite given how inconsistent double dance is with drei being on every other team)
In addition it is a really excellent mlop check as mlop fails to 2hko as well as having access to recover.
Jho also has been using a helmet set that aims to force as much damage onto stuff like mgross and mlop (particularly mgross since it fails to force any notable damage onto it without boosts) though it must be said it is a shoddy check to mgross in general.
I personally have not tried it but it sounds dope [:
Additionally, reuniclus dumps on just about every steel barring taunt tran and it is really hard to stop it from claiming a kill everytime it comes in on something like pex. Counterplay often resorts to being hard switching into gdarm and forcing it out with turn or fishing for crits (which is annoying b/c if they get it you get really salty).

set

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Focus Blast / Thunder
- Recover

I went with focus blast here so drei doesn't have all day long to fish for crits but if ur msab MU sucks you can def go w/ thunder here.
I won't be sharing a sample team here (unless i end up making the ladder tour )
And now that we're done with breaking hippo pex drei I want to discuss some other stuff

This thing is so annoying. Consistent counterplay is so hard and it ends up being bait the z-move and then whirlwind it out w/ hippo which is not ideal seeing as one mon dead in your defensive backbone can open up a gaping hole for other mons to sweep.
I've been really struggling to search for mons that can 1v1 and win and I've found a few.
+ unaware + physdef
Unaware clefable is actaully pretty nice because it blanket checks a ton of set up mons like garchomp, hydreigon, and of course, dragapult.
In fact i've been putting it some of my balance builds simply to have a semblance of counterplay to dragapult (plz ban pult broke af mon)

set

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect

+ physdef
I've been a big fan of toxapex lately cuz it still checks volc in one but it also lives +1 Z from pult, recovers, and hazes the boosts away.

set

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic
- Recover

And now I'm going to move onto some techs and/or lesser known mons i've been messing around with or that other council members have caught onto.
+ :psychinium z:
I will definitely regret posting this but z psychic volc is insanely good rn.
Given that is the undisputed best bulky water rn and the bane of volcarona's existence, psychic z just blows away toxapex since hp ground doesn't rlly do shit to pex. Of course being walled by heatran sucks but just something to try I forgot who mentioned it to me so sorry for not tagging anyone here :[
+
Going to be completely honest I am not a big fan of cinderace. I am a big fan of rillaboom however so I set out to make a team with it. I came up with rillazone which is a neat core in which rillaboom tends to lure steels such as ferrothorn and msciz and u-turns on them into magnezone. Additionally with high horsepower rillaboom lures the one steel magnezone fails to trap effectively being heatran.
https://pokepast.es/e9d0ec3f7e582edc
Leaving a sample here (also a fine representation of hippo pex drei)

 

[pulsar512b]

One Last Thing


Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Mild / Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide / Toxic

I'm not about to advocate for the ranking of Mega Camerupt in the current state of affairs, but it's something to keep an eye on if the metagame swings a certain direction. This thing still checks all of what made it somewhat viable in last generations OU, and it has the incredibly nice trait of hard checking Rotom-H and Bulkarona. I've had success with it on a couple of builds that benefitted from its incredibly specific set of strengths. It will never become a staple of the metagame, but its a powerful breaker with a good offensive typing, and the defensive utility definitely exists, so if the meta ever swings in a direction where Fairy / Steel offense is defining this could be worth checking out.

What things did it check in last gens that made it somewhat viable?

 

[Pro_Hybrid]

What things did it check in last gens that made it somewhat viable?

Just looking at the last USUM VR: Heatran, Magearna, Tapu Koko, Ferrothorn, M-Mawile, M-Scizor, Celesteela, Clefable, Magnezone, Volcarona, Jirachi, and Skarmory are all examples. Camel is also nice offensively versus Celesteela/Pex/Ferro cores.

 

[smokeythabear96]

I think with the rise of Hippo/Pex/Drei, having a pokemon that can break that core is quite important.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs:20HP / 252 SpA / 236Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

This variant gets easy entry on Toxapex/Slowbro as it really doesn't care about Scald burns. Against a stall matchup this can easily take out 3-4 mons as it doesn't suffer from the defense drops the physical version does so it can take one Gliscor EQ or Knock. Enough speed to outspeed standard Defog Tapu Fini, and due to Hoopa's naturally high special bulk it can easily survive a Moonblast. Once it gets a NP off it destroys Hydreigon on the switch w/ Fightinium Z or even just a regular Focus Blast if you want to risk the accuracy. Now obviously it is scared out by the threat of U Turn on Drei's Scarf set, but if Drei is NP as well then even a Draco wont come close to OHKOing. Ironically this can set up on the standard SP Def Clef, as you can easily tank a moonblast and then blow it away with a boosted Psyshock. Hippowdown gets ruined by a +2 Dark Pulse, and even max Defense Pex get OHKO'd by a +2 Psyshock.


Edit: Speaking of HippopexDrei, this is a prime example of how easily Hoopa can put defensive cores on the backfoot. Most toxapex will stay in knowing they can survive one hit and recover,but a well timed psychic move ends all that. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1130997035-ms5w174m2b3clfl1xq1qnagdo1fitn7pw

 

[Cuddly]

I think with the rise of Hippo/Pex/Drei, having a pokemon that can break that core is quite important.
View attachment 253421

Sorry I dont quite know how to copy and paste gifs on here lol.
Hoopa-Unbound @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 18 HP / 252 SpA / 238 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

This variant gets easy entry on Toxapex/Slowbro as it really doesn't care about Scald burns. Against a stall matchup this can easily take out 3-4 mons as it doesn't suffer from the defense drops the physical version does so it can take one Gliscor EQ or Knock. Enough speed to outspeed standard Defog Tapu Fini, and due to Hoopa's naturally high special bulk it can easily survive a Moonblast. Once it gets a NP off it destroys Hydreigon on the switch w/ Fightinium Z or even just a regular Focus Blast if you want to risk the accuracy. Now obviously it is scared out by the threat of U Turn on Drei's Scarf set, but if Drei is NP as well then even a Draco wont come close to OHKOing. Ironically this can set up on the standard SP Def Clef, as you can easily tank a moonblast and then blow it away with a boosted Psyshock. Hippowdown gets ruined by a +2 Dark Pulse, and even max Defense Pex get OHKO'd by a +2 Psyshock.

To get gifs working on posts, just copy the image address into Insert Image (You can press Ctrl+P to bring it up), and then paste the link of the gif's
address.
As an example
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/ani/abra.gif
Will display

And you can easily get any Pokemon sprite by using that link and changing "abra" to the name of the Pokemon you want, and you can access the April Fools sprites, shinies, and back sprites of all Pokemon here.

Anyways, I always loved Hoopa in both forms since Gen 6. I find it extremely underrated, but can see why since it's hard to use. It's the ultimate Balance, Fat Balance, and Stall breaking machine, but struggles against more offensive teams due to having 0 resistances, miserable physical bulk, and bad speed.
I remember making a UU team last gen with Hoopa-C and Sticky Webs that utilized Nasty Plot+Fightinium Z+Sub, which was pretty successful (although I did commonly win before I got to use Hoopa-C at all) I would recommend putting Shuckle on your team to give yourself Sticky Web support along with Stealth Rock to further break past walls. With your speed EVs (which should be 236 instead of 238 as 238 isn't divisible by 4 and those 2 extra EVs can be put into HP so you aren't effectively running 16 EVs), you will actually Speed tie with Modest/Adamant Dragapult against grounded opponents.

 

[smokeythabear96]

To get gifs working on posts, just copy the image address into Insert Image (You can press Ctrl+P to bring it up), and then paste the link of the gif's
address.
As an example
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/ani/abra.gif
Will display

And you can easily get any Pokemon sprite by using that link and changing "abra" to the name of the Pokemon you want, and you can access the April Fools sprites, shinies, and back sprites of all Pokemon here.

Anyways, I always loved Hoopa in both forms since Gen 6. I find it extremely underrated, but can see why since it's hard to use. It's the ultimate Balance, Fat Balance, and Stall breaking machine, but struggles against more offensive teams due to having 0 resistances, miserable physical bulk, and bad speed.
I remember making a UU team last gen with Hoopa-C and Sticky Webs that utilized Nasty Plot+Fightinium Z+Sub, which was pretty successful (although I did commonly win before I got to use Hoopa-C at all) I would recommend putting Shuckle on your team to give yourself Sticky Web support along with Stealth Rock to further break past walls. With your speed EVs (which should be 236 instead of 238 as 238 isn't divisible by 4 and those 2 extra EVs can be put into HP so you aren't effectively running 16 EVs), you will actually Speed tie with Modest/Adamant Dragapult against grounded opponents.

Thank you I appreciate it! And I wasnt even aware of the 4 rule I'll correct that.

Yeah Hoopa is pretty much useless against quicker offensive teams, although most of those teams have one special attacker it can easily take advantage of(Latios, Scarf Blacephalon etc). I feel like it works well in the meta right now though since pretty much every team has a bulky mon it can easily come in on and throw off a powerful attack on the switch.

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

Anyone have any idea how to deal with sub dragon dance dragapult. I can not find any offensive or deffensive check/counter to it.

 

[Robot7620]

Anyone have any idea how to deal with sub dragon dance dragapult. I can not find any offensive or deffensive check/counter to it.

Unaware physdef clef does is usually stall's out vs it though it must be said unaware clef fits primarily on stall.
Mandibuzz does a good job of checking it when it's healthy
Hippo + ghost resist can often check it you lure the z-move w ghost resist and then phaze w/ hippo.
max phys hippo can tank a +1 Z and recover then phaze.
max def pex can tank z-move and haze away boosts
just some things off the top of my head

 

[astralydia]

Anyone have any idea how to deal with sub dragon dance dragapult. I can not find any offensive or deffensive check/counter to it.

Heya, I have this problem at times too, but if there's a few mons that are scattered about that check Dragapult just fine.



Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
- Stealth Rock

This is probably the most splashable counter out there - Dragapult needs to correctly predict to click Dragon Darts multiple times. Its overall usefulness as a check to many Ghost and Psychic types in the meta is also important.

Other checks to Dragapult include PDef Clefable, Hippowdon, Tapu Fini and Magearna (as long as Z is taken care of). Other mentions such as Mega Lopunny, Aegislash and Cinderace can give you good priority to answer it. Hope this helps!

 

[Fatty Rabbit]

Anyone have any idea how to deal with sub dragon dance dragapult. I can not find any offensive or deffensive check/counter to it.

Yea all of those listed by the others are effective counters. If you want a dragapult counter that has strong offensive presence but without using a mega slot like m ttar, Melmetal is the premier choice.

Jolly +1 dragapult's Z phantom force does this much to your standard melmetal.

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 297-349 (62.9 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well of course, as with any mon not resistant to ghost, you do not want to take a +1 Z move while switching in, so you do have to predict the d dance/ substitute setup turn and switch melmetal in.

After tanking the Z move, you can return the favor by clicking double iron bash. The first hit would break the sub and the second would end it, as simple as that. And we are talking about AV melmetal here, you don't even need choice band to OHKO dragapult.

252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 354-416 (111.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are downsides tho, if the opponent is actually using a rare choice specs dragapult and you switched into a fire blast... umm rip. Anyways that is highly unlikely in the current meta and melmetal does its job 99% of the time.

 

[Steorra]

Yea all of those listed by the others are effective counters. If you want a dragapult counter that has strong offensive presence but without using a mega slot like m ttar, Melmetal is the premier choice.

Jolly +1 dragapult's Z phantom force does this much to your standard melmetal.

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 297-349 (62.9 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well of course, as with any mon not resistant to ghost, you do not want to take a +1 Z move while switching in, so you do have to predict the d dance/ substitute setup turn and switch melmetal in.

After tanking the Z move, you can return the favor by clicking double iron bash. The first hit would break the sub and the second would end it, as simple as that. And we are talking about AV melmetal here, you don't even need choice band to OHKO dragapult.

252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 354-416 (111.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are downsides tho, if the opponent is actually using a rare choice specs dragapult and you switched into a fire blast... umm rip. Anyways that is highly unlikely in the current meta and melmetal does its job 99% of the time.

not necessarily on that melmetal calc, does 111.6 on the two hits total to pult, even tested it out so you may break sub, but only damage to fail to KO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1133425648
the sets in the replay are max attack adamant melmetal and adamant pult

so it seems you have to run banded in order to KO

 

[Steorra]

also on the topic on answers for pult, i could list a few for jolly, but adamant is a bit too powerful, but I don't remember what nature it runs in natdex so help there would be cool,

bisharp could switch in on sub, knock as dd occurs knock again and live z at the same time
mimikyu can also be a cool check as it comes in on sub, claws/sneaks sub as dd occurs, z breaks disguise as mimikyu kills with claw
mandibuzz, even special defensive variants live +1 darts put with ease, so switch on sub, foul play on dd and foul again on darts that does
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 246-290 (58 - 68.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
skarm can check in a sense, but barely to phase it out really, switch on sub and whirlwind on dd/early z but not the best,

also bisharp and skarm could fail if they are mix fire move instead of sub so that to keep in mind

 

[theotherguytm]

also on the topic on answers for pult, i could list a few for jolly, but adamant is a bit too powerful, but I don't remember what nature it runs in natdex so help there would be cool,

100% Adamant, the extra firepower is critical, plus the only things in its speed bracket are Zeraora (not relevant) and other Dragapult (and Scarf Pult is bad). EDIT: I was wrong, Mega Lop is a thing.

Clef is a good pivot into a Dragapult, only fearing boosted NEN or the rare boosted Steel Wing if at full heath, as it is easy to switch out of Phantom Force, and it is able to break its Sub. On a good prediction you can even Protect if you have it to take even boosted NEN with ease:
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def protected Clefable: 97-115 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Protect also helps scout Steel Wings too. The main risk of Protect is Dragapult getting off multiple boosts.

Weavile is interesting for being able to speed tie neutral Dragapults, having access to Ice Shard, and being able to possibly take an unboosted hit if Rocks aren't up.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 264-312 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Lonely nature is common on mixed versions)
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 236-278 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 258-306 (81.3 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 336-396 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Scarfed Weavile speed tieing a boosted Pult)
252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Libero Cinderace is a reasonable offensive reply with Sucker Punch.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 270-318 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Cinder Ace isn't very good at taking boosted hits from Pult, and Sucker Punch can always be outplayed (especially since Cinderace has no other moves that threaten Pult)

A healthy physically defensive Ferrothorn is a reasonable reply. Pult's SpA is so bad that even uninvested Fire Blast usually won't kill from full.
4 SpA Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 280-332 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
However, it cannot truly answer it back.
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 195-229 (61.5 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Banded Aegislash with Shadow Sneak is a pretty good reply to both Subless variants and other sets in combination with a Normal type. It handles non-Ghost moves with ease, so unless your opponent Z moves on the switch, Aegi handles it fine. If the opponent is behind a Sub, Aegi should bait the Z-move, so just switch into a Normal type and you'll be fine.
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 94-112 (36 - 42.9%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 120-142 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 288-342 (90.8 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Finally, the premier Dragapult check in the current metagame, Mega Ttar. Sand teams in general have an easier time dealing with Dragapult, with Exacdrill in sand outspeeding neutral +1 Dragapult and both Mega Ttar and Hippo serving as decent checks and counters. Mega Ttar laughs off Dragapult's Z move (unless you're facing that one madman with Steelium) and either Pursuits it to death if it Subbed on the switch or just outright eats a boosted hit and KOs with Stone Edge.
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 271-319 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (guaranteed after Sandstorm)

So how do you play against Dragapult in practice then? The first trick is not to let it set up cheaply. An unboosted Dragapult is a very tame beast all things considered, so the usual aggressive doubles and attacking to not let it get a Sub up help a lot. Secondly, while this might sound contradictory, statusing Dragapult with yellow or red stuff effectively takes it out the game (which is why Sub is such a common move on it). Burns make it hit about as hard as a Magikarp's Flail while wearing it down, and paralysis neuters its main advantage over other sweepers-its speed. In either case, it needs to set up multiple Dragon Dance to be a threat to anything, which opens the door for burns to erode its health or yellow magic to halt it dead. Lastly, if all else fails, try and switch the mon you value least into the Z move, which should allow your check to halt it once the Z move is consumed.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Jolly is prefered because DD Pult's best attribute on HO is naturally outspeeding Mega Lopunny so it can force it out. While this seem a bit specific, Mega Lopunny is a massive threat to HO because of its dual priority. That and being able to go through screens is why Dragapult is so common on those archetypes.

 

[Jho]

Hey guys, we're going to be locking this thread in preparation for the DLC dropping - a new meta discussion thread will go up when we have access to all the information on everything that the DLC will be giving us. Stay tuned!