SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Yung Dramps]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1767366655540093322

I don't get it, man. Game Freak are The Pokemon Guys. That moniker alone should be beyond sufficient to have every other JRPG developer on the face of the planet drop what they're doing to line up to work with them. They could get Atlus. They could get one of Squeenix's probably bajillion subsidiaries. Hell, they could probably promote Spike Chunsoft up the food chain. If it's specifically someone to farm out remakes and remasters to, ArtePiazza and Grezzo are right there. What do they see in ILCA of all companies that we don't? One Piece Odyssey wasn't even that good! It was just fine!

For the record, this goes for Bandai Namco too for formerly inducting them as a developer division. That supporting work on DQ11/Nier Automata/etc must've been some real damn impressive stuff that didn't shine through to their current roster of Pokemon products whatsoever

 

[DrPumpkinz]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1767366655540093322

do i catapult myself right back into pseudo-doomer mode y/n

Nah, it's both a studio that isn't Game Freak (so no need to worry about it messing with them slowing down) and it seems to be its own original thing (so no need to worry about it being suffocated by a need to be faithful to something else).

If they're tasking ILCA with an original project, I'm actually pretty optimistic. The few places in BDSP where ILCA could actually express themselves were genuinely really cool, so something built from the ground up by them could be great.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Nah, it's both a studio that isn't Game Freak (so no need to worry about it messing with them slowing down) and it seems to be its own original thing (so no need to worry about it being suffocated by a need to be faithful to something else).

If they're tasking ILCA with an original project, I'm actually pretty optimistic. The few places in BDSP where ILCA could actually express themselves were genuinely really cool, so something built from the ground up by them could be great.

Fair enough but also I edited my comment right before you made this post to voice my concern here more eloquently. Sorry about that, but hey you raised a good perspective so it didn't matter anyway

 

[R_N]

They very likely could not actually get any developer they want on Pokemon. Atlus, Square, Bandai-Namco, whoever..."It's Pokemon!!!" doesn't matter, most of these companies have their own things going on and wouldn't drop everything to do bi-yearly Pokemon releases. Grezzo & Arte may not have the bandwidth for their other projects.
And of course there's the possibility of costs involved.

ILCA could be cheap, they have their hands in a lot of different games, they seem to have their hands on the ability to pull in a lot of contract workers which let's them dig into more projects and they likely built up some behind the scenes agreements from their work on Home and now BDSP. That last part might be extra important since the ILCA people could have actively approached GameFreak.

Despite the narrative people desperately wanted to push, it seems to me that GameFreak did like the possibilities ILCA brought to the table. If they're making a distinct Divison they probably want to continue to foster that and probably allow more oversight/time/whatever.

 

[Celever]

They very likely could not actually get any developer they want on Pokemon. Atlus, Square, Bandai-Namco, whoever..."It's Pokemon!!!" doesn't matter, most of these companies have their own things going on and wouldn't drop everything to do bi-yearly Pokemon releases. Grezzo & Arte may not have the bandwidth for their other projects.
And of course there's the possibility of costs involved.

ILCA could be cheap, they have their hands in a lot of different games, they seem to have their hands on the ability to pull in a lot of contract workers which let's them dig into more projects and they likely built up some behind the scenes agreements from their work on Home and now BDSP. That last part might be extra important since the ILCA people could have actively approached GameFreak.

Despite the narrative people desperately wanted to push, it seems to me that GameFreak did like the possibilities ILCA brought to the table. If they're making a distinct Divison they probably want to continue to foster that and probably allow more oversight/time/whatever.

IDK, I think it’s difficult to argue that GameFreak liked the possibilities ILCA brought to the table when they also didn’t let them apply any of those possibilities to their game lol. The underground was a better execution of the Wild Area but a worse execution than Wild Pokémon in SV, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that was both requested by and worked on alongside GameFreak as a technical exercise for them.

I’m sure that this type of thing has happened before — reportedly XD: Gales of Darkness exists because Genius Sonority wanted to make a sequel, as opposed to GameFreak or TPCi wanting one — but I’m also sure that those games are considered spin-offs internally. If ILCA requested a spin-off then sure, maybe you’re right, but it’s a risky manoeuvre considering BDSP had at least the worst reception of any mainline Pokémon games since BW (SwSh’s trees don’t count, those games were still pretty well-liked). When BW got the reception it got, the sequel addressed essentially every concern from the originals (bringing back old mons, a less obviously linear region, etc. etc., the only thing they didn’t change back was infinite use TMs lol). It makes sense that GameFreak trusts themself to do that, but why would they trust ILCA to do something completely different from the only project they’ve ever done? Even if ILCA did request it?

And even if it is a spin-off, ILCA’s name is heavily tied to BDSP among fans. They have to know whatever spin-off they come up with will be met with a great deal of skepticism. It doesn’t make business sense, really.

Even the art style was extremely divisive. Love hate to an extent, but mainly hate that I saw lol. I can’t think of a spin-off that weird chibi dollhouse aesthetic would be the optimal art style for besides Pokémon Rumble. And if it’s Pokémon Rumble then I take it all back, those games seem pretty easy to make well. Of course that was still messed up at some point by a freeplay model but I digress.

 

[R_N]

IDK, I think it’s difficult to argue that GameFreak liked the possibilities ILCA brought to the table when they also didn’t let them apply any of those possibilities to their game lol. The underground was a better execution of the Wild Area but a worse execution than Wild Pokémon in SV, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that was both requested by and worked on alongside GameFreak as a technical exercise for them.

I’m sure that this type of thing has happened before — reportedly XD: Gales of Darkness exists because Genius Sonority wanted to make a sequel, as opposed to GameFreak or TPCi wanting one — but I’m also sure that those games are considered spin-offs internally. If ILCA requested a spin-off then sure, maybe you’re right, but it’s a risky manoeuvre considering BDSP had at least the worst reception of any mainline Pokémon games since BW (SwSh’s trees don’t count, those games were still pretty well-liked). When BW got the reception it got, the sequel addressed essentially every concern from the originals (bringing back old mons, a less obviously linear region, etc. etc., the only thing they didn’t change back was infinite use TMs lol). It makes sense that GameFreak trusts themself to do that, but why would they trust ILCA to do something completely different from the only project they’ve ever done? Even if ILCA did request it?

And even if it is a spin-off, ILCA’s name is heavily tied to BDSP among fans. They have to know whatever spin-off they come up with will be met with a great deal of skepticism. It doesn’t make business sense, really.

Even the art style was extremely divisive. Love hate to an extent, but mainly hate that I saw lol. I can’t think of a spin-off that weird chibi dollhouse aesthetic would be the optimal art style for besides Pokémon Rumble. And if it’s Pokémon Rumble then I take it all back, those games seem pretty easy to make well. Of course that was still messed up at some point by a freeplay model but I digress.

If they had more ideas they couldn't implement, they might have also been able to show them for all we know but when I say the possibilities, I mean of someone able to put out a game like this that sold well likely despite external issues and time, with a set of developers they might have liked working with via Masuda as intermediary, and that can offset future projects GF proper are working on if it comes down to it. Also maybe they liked how they were able to port their stuff into Unity, even with the mishaps. Or a million other aspects.

We can go on about divisiveness or reception but on the whole the game still sold really well and there were still people who just generally liked the game. If GameFreak is continuing to go with ILCA despite the issues, willing to work on a dedicated division for it, then they clearly liked the upshots of it and might want to continue fostering this and growing it into something bigger/better. Maybe that's BDSP-styled games forever, maybe it's original titles, maybe it's a divsision to help out with other spinoff developers, who knows. But they clearly liked something, so here we are

 

[Celever]

If they had more ideas they couldn't implement, they might have also been able to show them for all we know but when I say the possibilities, I mean of someone able to put out a game like this that sold well likely despite external issues and time, with a set of developers they might have liked working with via Masuda as intermediary, and that can offset future projects GF proper are working on if it comes down to it. Also maybe they liked how they were able to port their stuff into Unity, even with the mishaps. Or a million other aspects.

We can go on about divisiveness or reception but on the whole the game still sold really well and there were still people who just generally liked the game. If GameFreak is continuing to go with ILCA despite the issues, willing to work on a dedicated division for it, then they clearly liked the upshots of it and might want to continue fostering this and growing it into something bigger/better. Maybe that's BDSP-styled games forever, maybe it's original titles, maybe it's a divsision to help out with other spinoff developers, who knows. But they clearly liked something, so here we are

The fact that the best upshots are “they’d be happy to just take a decade and a half old game and directly port the code, while applying worse graphics than the originals, and they’ll do it for cheap and unquestioningly, while also adding a gamebreaking bug (forced affection)” is exactly the reason why people are upset that ILCA is making another game, to be fair. Most people would prefer it if ILCA didn’t make another game so that concept could be developed well, instead.

In long, historic franchises like Pokémon, quality usually affects sequels more than it does the original games. It’s why Sonic and the Secret Rings (actually quite a good game) sold poorly while Sonic 06 sold well, and then Sonic Colours sold well because of the Secret Rings buff + being very good + having more advertising. Most of BDSP’s customers bought it at release or pre-ordered, before we knew the affection bug or the fact that literally nothing changed besides the Underground. Most of those customers will hesitate to buy the sequel on release and wait for the testimonies of their acquaintances or YouTubers who do play the game, and if it’s the same standard as BDSP then sales will go down a lot.

 

[R_N]

The fact that the best upshots are “they’d be happy to just take a decade and a half old game and directly port the code, while applying worse graphics than the originals, and they’ll do it for cheap and unquestioningly, while also adding a gamebreaking bug (forced affection)” is exactly the reason why people are upset that ILCA is making another game, to be fair. Most people would prefer it if ILCA didn’t make another game so that concept could be developed well, instead.

In long, historic franchises like Pokémon, quality usually affects sequels more than it does the original games. It’s why Sonic and the Secret Rings (actually quite a good game) sold poorly while Sonic 06 sold well, and then Sonic Colours sold well because of the Secret Rings buff + being very good + having more advertising. Most of BDSP’s customers bought it at release or pre-ordered, before we knew the affection bug or the fact that literally nothing changed besides the Underground. Most of those customers will hesitate to buy the sequel on release and wait for the testimonies of their acquaintances or YouTubers who do play the game, and if it’s the same standard as BDSP then sales will go down a lot.

You assume most of those people who bought the game actively cared about things like affection or the underground, though.
For most people the game was a cutsey looking Pokemon title they could just play start to finish with minimal issues. They probably did not care about affection, didn't even interact with the really big glitches that got patched out, may not have cared about the lack of changes (and if you were a hardcore player it was very obvious that there would be few changes, honestly...) and so on.

 

[Bakugames]

One of my friends has bdsp as their favorite remake because they think its cute and they think affection is cute. I think we can get too caught up in bubbles on the internet but theres people who enjoy this style of remake (they were sad there was no unova remake this style!) and also that remakes dont seem to be the big releases like they were before and more so extra nuggets of pokemon content compared to more experimental stuff like pla and plza

 

[Blue glass]

As an aside I love the BDSP chibi style because it reminds me when the characters sprites had massive heads on the earlier games.

 

[pika pal]

In long, historic franchises like Pokémon, quality usually affects sequels more than it does the original games. It’s why Sonic and the Secret Rings (actually quite a good game) sold poorly while Sonic 06 sold well, and then Sonic Colours sold well because of the Secret Rings buff + being very good + having more advertising. Most of BDSP’s customers bought it at release or pre-ordered, before we knew the affection bug or the fact that literally nothing changed besides the Underground. Most of those customers will hesitate to buy the sequel on release and wait for the testimonies of their acquaintances or YouTubers who do play the game, and if it’s the same standard as BDSP then sales will go down a lot.

Big Sonic guy here. Secret Rings is garbage as a game that at best got an "at least it's not this" reception at the time of release next to 06.

The mainline games that immediately followed 06 were Sonic Unleashed, which made a point in its marketing to throw a lot of money into its presentation values and tout that it was addressing issues that had been criticized about the series in and before Sonic 2006 (cutting down the playable cast, a shift away from an overly serious tone, the gameplay style being Boost-based lifted from the well-regarded Rush games), and then Colors benefitted from being "Unleashed but we trimmed more stuff people didn't like in that game" (namely the slowered paced Werehog gameplay). I do think this does support your point about quality reflecting more on subsequent games than the then-current ones (Devil May Cry is another good example of this), but Secret Rings is not a game that plays into that.

Ironically SR might reflect the other side of the coin: SR was bad, they did another sequel that improved several aspects but didn't really change the core criticism, and 2 tepid games in a row got that sub-series shelved while mainline stuff just sorta went on its way. ILCA has it in their best interest to get this next project right because (deserved or not) they're now kind of the memetic "be afraid" team for Pokemon projects after BDSP, something even Gamefreak hasn't quite reached despite the dunking on their quality output (ILCA Unova was something I saw people legit dreading for the Pokemon Day stream).

 

[Ironmage]

Big Sonic guy here. Secret Rings is garbage as a game that at best got an "at least it's not this" reception at the time of release next to 06.

The mainline games that immediately followed 06 were Sonic Unleashed, which made a point in its marketing to throw a lot of money into its presentation values and tout that it was addressing issues that had been criticized about the series in and before Sonic 2006 (cutting down the playable cast, a shift away from an overly serious tone, the gameplay style being Boost-based lifted from the well-regarded Rush games), and then Colors benefitted from being "Unleashed but we trimmed more stuff people didn't like in that game" (namely the slowered paced Werehog gameplay). I do think this does support your point about quality reflecting more on subsequent games than the then-current ones (Devil May Cry is another good example of this), but Secret Rings is not a game that plays into that.

Ironically SR might reflect the other side of the coin: SR was bad, they did another sequel that improved several aspects but didn't really change the core criticism, and 2 tepid games in a row got that sub-series shelved while mainline stuff just sorta went on its way. ILCA has it in their best interest to get this next project right because (deserved or not) they're now kind of the memetic "be afraid" team for Pokemon projects after BDSP, something even Gamefreak hasn't quite reached despite the dunking on their quality output (ILCA Unova was something I saw people legit dreading for the Pokemon Day stream).

Meanwhile, for me, a comparison to Sonic around that era feels like a pretty good endorsement of ICLA's projects. While the big console games were throwing everything at the wall and nothing was sticking, the Advance and Rush games were pretty good throughout. As someone who doesn't like the shifts the mainline pokemon games have gone through recently, a stream of games with less drive to shake things up is probably an increase in game's I'll be buying. It is a shame though that the minor games won't be cheaper since they'll be on the same system.

 

[R_N]

You know I forgot about it until I saw it brought up elsewhere, but ILCA was also helping with SV ("planning & story") & Sleep ("planning and engineering")

Since they're actively touching multiple projects, including mainline titles, it makes sense that this little workhouse gets a dedicated division behind it to better coordinate and such. Regardless of if they get new BDSP-style titles under their belt moving forward (which I think they probably will)

 

[Cancel cult]

more obsessing over base stats.
poiple has a 420 bst, and the only other ones with that are starters, very early game small creatures like linoone, pseudo legendaries, and castform.
all pokemon with 350 are somewhat significant, except for kingambit, and to some extent gholdengo. legendary, legendary, ursaluna, and volcarona.
there are also quite a bit of draconic pokemon with 340 bst, which is interesting, because naganadel has that bst.

do any of these mean something?
in order
possibly
probobly not
almost certainly no

also, cosmog has the same bst as magicarp, feebass, and scatterbug, which probobly has no lore significance and is just to emphasise its weak nature.

 

[Genuine_Angus_B33F]

Along the line of stats stuff, I have a thought about interpreting stats and diagetic flavor that I don't think I've seen before. I've seen lots of "lol Miltank faster than Rayquaza, Krabby stronger than Giratina" type sentiments, and the way I interpret stats is why I don't really care about these.

Lots of Pokemon have BSTs at a fixed value. Whatever kind of "special" you want to call them, lots of pokemon are at a fixed BST of some sort, often signified by sharing that BST with others of a similar category. 570 has UBs, Lesser Paradox mons, Tapus, and the Ruin Quartet, 580 has most of the minor legends from old gens, 600 has Psuedo Legends and Mythicals, 680 has lots of Box Art Legends, etc.

Thing is, if something is designed to have a specific fixed BST... why are we seriously considering the specific values of their base stats in terms of flavor? Why exactly the precise numbers were chosen isn't known in most cases, but it's pretty abundantly clear in most cases that they're trying to reach a certain total, and manipulating the numbers to reach that total is inevitably going to bend how the numbers work.

This is mostly relevant with high BST stuff because basically everything with a BST of 570 or higher is a part of a category like this. Even one-ofs like Palafin Hero are still aiming for a total, and that's a trend which, while still present, is nowhere near a constant below~560 BST. (Archeops Dewey Decimal BST my beloved) So, basically, I don't care too much about silly stat comparisons unless all the things being compared are below that threshold.

 

[Coronis]

The fact that the best upshots are “they’d be happy to just take a decade and a half old game and directly port the code, while applying worse graphics than the originals, and they’ll do it for cheap and unquestioningly, while also adding a gamebreaking bug (forced affection)” is exactly the reason why people are upset that ILCA is making another game, to be fair. Most people would prefer it if ILCA didn’t make another game so that concept could be developed well, instead.

In long, historic franchises like Pokémon, quality usually affects sequels more than it does the original games. It’s why Sonic and the Secret Rings (actually quite a good game) sold poorly while Sonic 06 sold well, and then Sonic Colours sold well because of the Secret Rings buff + being very good + having more advertising. Most of BDSP’s customers bought it at release or pre-ordered, before we knew the affection bug or the fact that literally nothing changed besides the Underground. Most of those customers will hesitate to buy the sequel on release and wait for the testimonies of their acquaintances or YouTubers who do play the game, and if it’s the same standard as BDSP then sales will go down a lot.

I mean, this is just untrue, thats the beauty of Pokemon for them, whilst sales do vary somewhat (not even necessarily because of quality), the main series games are inevitably huge sales successes no matter what.

 

[Axiemeister]

i really want ILCA to get their own game if only to settle the "they ruined DP" vs "they did what any remake does" discourse. also, maybe unpopular, but the only pokémon remake that truly leaves "glorified port" territory is ORAS (i say this loving FRLG and specially HGSS - they didn't change much but they didn't need to)

 

[Esserise]

also, maybe unpopular, but the only pokémon remake that truly leaves "glorified port" territory is ORAS (i say this loving FRLG and specially HGSS - they didn't change much but they didn't need to)

Can’t believe I’m defending HGSS, but I feel like they changed quite a lot?

- The Safari Zone is entirely new content
- The Pokéathlon is entirely new content
- It’s got the full Battle Frontier from Platinum
- Most of the Kanto areas that GSC gutted are fully restored
- It’s got a whole new area west of Cianwood
- There’s Gym Leader rematches that weren’t in GSC
- There are new Mythical Pokémon events for Celebi and Arceus
- There’s a new photography feature for taking pictures with your team
- Your Pokémon are able to follow you around
- Pokéwalker compatibility; they built an entire periphery device solely for this game

Like, if that’s still a “glorified port” then I’m not sure how ORAS aren’t

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Can’t believe I’m defending HGSS, but I feel like they changed quite a lot?

- The Safari Zone is entirely new content
- The Pokéathlon is entirely new content
- It’s got the full Battle Frontier from Platinum
- Most of the Kanto areas that GSC gutted are fully restored
- It’s got a whole new area west of Cianwood
- There’s Gym Leader rematches that weren’t in GSC
- There are new Mythical Pokémon events for Celebi and Arceus
- There’s a new photography feature for taking pictures with your team
- Your Pokémon are able to follow you around
- Pokéwalker compatibility; they built an entire periphery device solely for this game

Like, if that’s still a “glorified port” then I’m not sure how ORAS aren’t

Not to mention FRLG literally adds a whole other region? Semi-region if you're going to get technical but whatevs

ORAS probably adds the least overall but it's still a lot. I don't see how any of the first three remakes can be considered a "glorified port"

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah while FRLG was the least different and most faithful of the first three remakes, all three of FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS are very much different experiences from their original games with a lot of changes. HGSS isn't quite as different as ORAS, but it still is much more different from GSC than FRLG was from RGB. In fact it's still nearly just as different from GSC as ORAS is from RSE.

HGSS and ORAS are pretty much the same in one regard, and that is that they basically fundamentally change the base experience to align it closer with the base games of their generation. HGSS is very much a Gen 4 game and changes the experience to be more like DPP. ORAS is very much a Gen 6 game and fundamentally changes the experience to be more like XY.

HGSS even changed several story beats from the original, like the Kimono Girls only being battled later, and all of them showing up at different points in the game. It also makes Ho-oh and Lugia mandatory encounters in the story, whereas they were completely optional in the original, as a means of more closely aligning HGSS with DPP. Suicune from Crystal is now relegated to a post-game quest that takes place in Kanto. A lot of added content is made to more closely mirror Platinum, like the Gym Leader rematches, the Pokeathlon basically being Johto's own equivalent to Sinnoh's Contests, and so on and so forth. HGSS even attempts to tie itself to Sinnoh with the Arceus event at Sinjoh, and Crasher Wake appearing at one point. Much like how ORAS made its story and world connect to XY and Kalos.

HGSS is a nearly completely different experience from the original GSC in many regards. While the level curve is still pretty bad, it was changed a lot in several aspects, especially in the Kanto segment.

The only "remake" that truly falls into the glorified port territory is BDSP, which is so aggressively faithful that there is practically 0 change in the base experience from the original Diamond and Pearl in every front with a few gameplay mechanics like EXP All sloppily implemented, and practically zero new added content in the base experience. The game doesn't even look like Sword and Shield. Unlike the first three remakes, BDSP is still very much a Gen 4 game with a sloppy coat of paint added onto it.

Legends: Arceus is basically the "Sinnoh in the Sword and Shield" engine and the game that actually brings a new experience in the Gen 8 artstyle and engine, and takes being different that HGSS and ORAS worked towards to an even bigger step by being a completely different game in a different time period in that region. Legends games seem to be the way forward, with the next one being Legends: Z-A taking place in Kalos itself, presumably in the Scarlet and Violet engine.

 

[woodgoldtwo]

What if the reason worlds last year allowed pokemon transfered from HOME is because they are going to use the restricted format for this years worlds and next years worlds is going to be in Legends Z-A?

It would explain why there was never a worlds with only the regional dex and gives Game Freak/TPCI an opportunity to test if mega evolution is balanced enough in VGC (or not overly disliked by competetive players) in order to know if it's a good idea to bring it back to the "fully mainline" games

 

[Bakugames]

i dont see megas ever coming back, tbh. its one of the most centralizing restrictive mechanics for doubles and already kinda nasty when the final restricted format comes with natural centralization from your legendary picks. unless theyre heavily toned down but i think tera overall is more liked (or less hated?)

 

[R_N]

a "Z-A" worlds was something I thought about, but it would be kind of weird
The Dex will very likely be pretty limited. Especially if they also made it Megas and unrestricted, at which point there'd probably only be like 6 or so Pokemon.

& it would require Z-A to be released pretty early into 2025 and barely give people any time to play with the meta -one which would be a completely different land scape - at all.
And if we assume it's a mid-to-back half 2025 release it's missing 2025 Worlds entirely for the 2026 Worlds, at which point it becomes a weird one off that will immediately be ignored for building upon because Gen 10 is definitely out like 3 months later.

Also I think various VGC players did like Megas, and they'd probably tweak various ones but also I don't think they'd remotely care about how "hated" or not something is. They'd do it because they want to show it off again. And they likely wouldn't be using it as a note for return to "proper" games since they'd probably already have that decision made and not just sit on that data until gen 11.

 

[Coronis]

I don't get it, man. Game Freak are The Pokemon Guys. That moniker alone should be beyond sufficient to have every other JRPG developer on the face of the planet drop what they're doing to line up to work with them.

Disagree tbh. Unless they have an equally famous franchise, no matter what other games they make they’ll be remembered for their Pokemon ones. That’s not something another top developer would want to be shackled to/remembered for imo.

 

[Mad Ram]

Disagree tbh. Unless they have an equally famous franchise, no matter what other games they make they’ll be remembered for their Pokémon ones. That’s not something another top developer would want to be shackled to/remembered for imo.

See Mystery Dungeon. Apparently there are about 30 of them, and I suspect most people are unaware of the ones that don't have Pikachu on the cover. Hell, I had to look up the franchise on Wikipedia just to see how many were not Pokémon crossovers (the answer is 23 btw).