SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Cancel cult]

reposted from smogoff where it was locked because it was the wrong place

Recently, I've been slowly going insane. And the root of my insanity has been one number. That number is 570. There are 30 Pokemon with the base stat total of 570.

The first nine of these Pokemon are all of the Ultra Beasts except for Poiple and Naganadel, and the light trio if you count them. Naganadel has a similar face and wing shape to Ultra Necrozma, and they are both dragon types. Naganadel is the only Ultra Beast to evolve, and Necrozmas hosts were at the time, the only legendaries to evolve (yes I know, we’ll get to it). These similarities are likely coincidental, but what isnt coincidental are the similarities between Guzzlord and Zygarde. They are both black dragons with white shinies and immensely high hp stats. They have similar body shapes, and seem to serve opposite roles, with Zygarde protecting it, and Guzzlord… not. But most striking of all, they are found in the EXACT SAME CAVE. While more numerous than those between Naganandel and Ultra Necrozma, many people will still write these similarities off as circumstantial evidence, and that would be valid, had the artist who designed Guzzlord not point some of these out.

However, there are more similarities between Zygarde and the Ultra Beasts. Guzzlord is often associated with Naganadel, who, as previously stated has some similarities in common with Ultra Necrozma. All four are dragon type, the only dragon legend/mythical/ubs in their gens. Zygarde has a crystalline structure that looks similar to Ultra Necrozma. Necrozma, as you probably know, is heavily associated with Z crystals. These Z crystals are tied to the aura that Necrozma and the Totem Pokemon give off. However, the Ultra Beasts also give off this aura, which raises one or more attack, defence, special attack, special defence, and speed, something which the Ultra Beasts signature ability Beast Boost does too. Now, what pokemon has an ability related to aura, one that just like Ultra Necrozma, has been split into pieces, and can regain its true form only in battle, one thats name intentionally starts with z. Thats right. Zygarde. A Pokemon which mysteriously appeared in Alola during the Ultra Beast invasion. Many of these points could be coincidences, however these connections will make more sense as I continue.

So, thats nine out of the 30 Pokemon with a 570 base stat total. The next four are the Tapus, whose similarities with the previous pokemon is obvious. There are no gen 8 pokemon with that base stat total, so I will be skipping over it for now. Thats not to say it isn't important, as it will be soon. But onto gen 9, where things get interesting.

The next set of Pokemon with a 570 base stat total are the ruin legendaries. These Pokemon have a shocking number of similarities with the tapus. Besides being quartets of legendaries with the same base stat total, they each have abilities that were at the time exclusive to them, and that correlated to eachother. The tapus are found in the ruins, while the ruin legendaries do not need explaining. Both have two part names that originate from different languages. But the nail in the coffin is this. The tapus and the ruin legends are fairy type and dark type respectively. These types are opposites. And the tapus signature move is the fairy type natures madness, while the ruins signature move is the dark type ruination. These moves function the exact same way. This cannot be a coincidence.

Lets take a moment to talk more about base stat totals. The ruin legends actually used to have base stat totals of 580, but was reduced to 570 in a patch. All other mon with a base stat total of 580 are either legendaries or have megas, and all pokemon besides iron valiant and roaring moon that have the base stat total of 590 have megas. The raidons have a base stat total of 670, the dex number of floette. Well get back to that. Something of note is that the box legendaries of X and Y are fairy and dark type. These Pokemon also have correlations with zygarde and aura.

The next pokemon with that base stat total are all the paradox pokemon except for the raidons if you count them, iron leaves, iron valiant, walking wake, and roaring moon. Iron valiant and roaring moon seem to directly reference mega galade and mega salamance, while iron leaves and waking walk are based on legendaries. The paradox pokemon have a lot in common with ultra beasts. They have similar origins, and they have an ability that boosts their strongest stat. Something that might mean something but might mean nothing is that area zeros initials are az. However, Az is almost certainly connected to the great crater in paldea. His floette is as of now unobtainable. Floette are found all over the great crater. The great crater is full of crystals. The ultimate weapon is crystaline. Eternal flower, the title of azs floette, has the same name structure as the paradox pokemon. Its signature move is light of ruin, like the abilities of the ruin legends. The theory that the ultimate weapon made the crater is not new, but it is important.

Remember when i said gen 8 was important? First things first, lets get the circumstantial evidence out of the way first. The za dogs share the base stat total with the raidons, and za backwards is az. That likely is a coincidence. What is almost certainly not a coincidence is eternatus. First, lets get the circumstantial evidence out of the way. It shares a type combo with naganadel, and its weak to necrozma, while its poison type is resistant and immune to lunala and solgaleo. This could be foreshadowing, but it probably means nothing. But the big thing is this. Eternatus is the 3rd legendary dragon in a row to be crystalline and have a more powerful form. It is the second in a row to be connected to the regions gimmick. And while terapagos may turn out to not be a dragon type, it checks some of those boxes.

The ultimate weapon is already connected to mega evolution, but assuming the ultimate weapon did create the great crater, that also connects it to terastilization. Z moves have obious conections to terastilization, and gigantimax likewise to mega evolution. Z moves and dynamax both take all moves except status moves, and group them into 18 different moves based on their typing, with their power based on the base move, except for a few special mon who have their own versions. And while were comparing necrozma to eternatus, lets look at the facts. Eternatus produces light. Necrozma consumes light. This is a plot point that is too cool to pass up, and might be in a game soon.

Regardless, I believe that there will be a game soon that explores these connections. And we have the perfect catalyst for this:Pokemon Legends: Arceus. Notice the : in the title. This likely means that there will be more Legends games. Which leads me to the final pokemon with a base stat total of 570. A pokemon with ties to ultra beasts, one of the few legendaries to evolve. A pokemon that changes type. A pokemon with ties to arceus. The first legends game was Pokemon Legends: Arceus. So wouldn't it be fitting if the next legends game was Pokemon Legends: Silvally?
what do you think?
TL;DR: the next legends game will be legends silvally, everything's connected, big things are about to happen, and i am losing my sanity HELP

well now.

you might think that the anouncement of the new legends game disconfirms everything i said. on the contrary, it adds fuel to the fire. while the main theory of legends silvally was wrong, i still belive it is coming. now, while we dont get much information from the trailer, the name alone makes all the points i made more likely. the name of this game is z-a, which tell us those letters have significance. now, what has those letters?
az
area zero
now add the fact that it is in lumios city, where the ultimate weapon was, and it makes all the dots i connected seem more likely. not to mention the fact that, while it is not called legends silvally, this does not mean that silvally will not have a role in this.

 

[MoonlightRose]

well now.

you might think that the anouncement of the new legends game disconfirms everything i said. on the contrary, it adds fuel to the fire. while the main theory of legends silvally was wrong, i still belive it is coming. now, while we dont get much information from the trailer, the name alone makes all the points i made more likely. the name of this game is z-a, which tell us those letters have significance. now, what has those letters?
az
area zero
now add the fact that it is in lumios city, where the ultimate weapon was, and it makes all the dots i connected seem more likely. not to mention the fact that, while it is not called legends silvally, this does not mean that silvally will not have a role in this.

The ultimate weapon was in Geosenge Town, not Lumiose

 

[Cancel cult]

The ultimate weapon was in Geosenge Town, not Lumiose

I meant in kalos.

 

[bdt2002]

By this point, I'm sure we all know that the Psychic-Type is notorious for its dominance in the Gen 1 games, with a strong lineup of Pokémon, easy prey in Kanto's ludicrous amount of Poison-Types, Ghost-Types just straight up not being coded correctly, extremely weak Bug-Type counterplay options, and having unresisted Psychic STAB against every type against itself. That's a whole lot of positives for what should be Gen 1's best Type... right?

I am here right now to propose a theory that may sound as ridiculous as the Psychic-Type was overpowered back then. I think there was a Type before Gen 1's full release that might have been even better. Or at least, on a comparable level to the Psychic-Type we received in the full release. See, the Dark-Type was the first of two Types that were added to the games at a later point whose original purpose was to balance out a previously overpowered Type by being both super-effective against it offensively and immune to it defensively. The other one, of course, is the Fairy-Type having the same dynamic with Dragon-Types as Psychic-Types do with Dark-Types. A simple glance at the type chart may tell you that there's technically a third Type that fits this specific criteria though- the Ground-Type. As we all know, the Ground-Type is both immune to Electric-Type moves and super-effective against Electric-Type Pokémon with its moves. The Ground-Type's role in balancing out Electric is far from the craziest change Pokémon has ever seen during its developmental phase, but what if this was done on purpose because the Electric-Type was just that good and it had to be nerfed during Gen 1's development just like the Psychic-Type would be in Gen 2?

There exists a lot of confirmed information from datamines, concept art, and even the final games' code that suggests that the Type would have at least been significantly more useful in single player in the Kanto region's original iteration. Whether it would have matched the Psychic-Type's dominance of the completed Gen 1 in multiplayer, we will never know, but I'll leave some points here for you guys to think about:

• Predictably, the Electric-Type's matchup spread in the original games gets a lot better if you remove the Ground-Type from the equation. Rock/Ground Pokémon seen in Brock's Gym and other mandatory NPC battles go from a losing matchup to an even one, and Giovanni's Ground-Type team would cease to exist. This on its own wouldn't mean anything, but the Viridian City Gym wasn't always supposed to be a Ground-Type Gym. At one point, it was actually supposed to be a Flying-Type Gym (or I guess it still would been called the Bird-Type, but same difference), which- you guessed it- means a winning matchup for Electric-Types originally was turned into a losing one in the final release. This is in addition to the Electric-Type having no weaknesses in this case, and only two Types that switch into it, being itself and what would eventually become the Grass-Type, a type that the legendary Pokémon Zapdos has a winning matchup against anyways.
  • Information regarding her is a bit less certain, but it's also commonly speculated that Erika was originally supposed to not be a Grass-Type Gym Leader as well. The original plans for the games and Erika's changed design possibly suggest that the original plans for a Pokémon Gym in Lavender Town could have been filled in with her as a Ghost-Type specialist, but this connection has never been officially confirmed as far as I can tell.
• At this point, it is all but confirmed that the series's eventual mascot Pikachu was going to originally have a second evolution after Raichu. This Pokémon, most often recognized as what could have been "Gorochu", was supposedly removed from the games early in development for being too powerful, although in what context also has never been officially confirmed from what I know. I doubt a fully released Raichu evolution would have become the dominant Electric-Type in the same way Mewtwo was for the Psychic-Type (that's a pretty high bar to reach), but the important part is that a powerful Electric-Type was removed from the game, presumably also before the Pikachu family gained access to Surf in this generation.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

In the anime it's not uncommon to see characters with a shiny Pokemon: off the top of my head Lance, Winona, Jackson, that Shuckle berry farmer, and that Ditto girl in the DP series all owned one, but there's a bunch more examples including, of course, Ash himself. Journeys even had an episode featuring an honest-to-god shiny-hunter who specifically wanted to capture only shiny Pokemon.

However, it's funny that in all the games to date NPCs using shinies is something practically unheard of. There's literally that one guy in USUM who uses a shiny Exeggcute and those couple of trainers in FRLG's Trainer Tower - and that's it. Elsewise the only way an NPC can use a shiny is in a battle facility (or glitches/oversights like Wally catching a shiny Ralts in RSE). And while the games have very gradually introduced us to NPCs who have a focus outside of a specific type, we've never seen an NPC as far as I can recall whose focus is finding shiny Pokemon.

When thinking about why this is, my mind instantly went to this guy on Route 44 in GSC:

(Images from https://lparchive.org/Pokemon-Crystal-(by-Crosspeice)/Update 41/)


It's kind of laughable how at-odds the fandom at large is to this comment (and how mythologised Karen's similar "strong Pokemon, weak Pokemon" quote is). But I think this attitude is what continues to inform the games, and it's why we haven't had any significant NPCs with a shiny Pokemon on their team*, let alone someone who's a full-on shiny hunter. Even the NPCs who see and comment on shiny Pokemon don't seem that desirous of them; their reactions tend to be more "huh, so a Pokemon can be a different colour" than "that's rare, I must have it!"

Because if that was ever the case it's really not now (and of course, it was the literal truth in GSC, where shinies were often genuinely less powerful than non-shinies). Shinies are routinely used in promotions; the anime often advertises shiny Pokemon as an interesting feature of an upcoming movie or episode. So it's funny that there hasn't been an NPC saying something like this since this one reappeared in HGSS, perhaps because it would be so blatantly untrue.


*it's probably also because, with a couple of rare exceptions, NPC's Pokemon just aren't that important

 

[bdt2002]

In the anime it's not uncommon to see characters with a shiny Pokemon: off the top of my head Lance, Winona, Jackson, that Shuckle berry farmer, and that Ditto girl in the DP series all owned one, but there's a bunch more examples including, of course, Ash himself. Journeys even had an episode featuring an honest-to-god shiny-hunter who specifically wanted to capture only shiny Pokemon.

However, it's funny that in all the games to date NPCs using shinies is something practically unheard of. There's literally that one guy in USUM who uses a shiny Exeggcute and those couple of trainers in FRLG's Trainer Tower - and that's it. Elsewise the only way an NPC can use a shiny is in a battle facility (or glitches/oversights like Wally catching a shiny Ralts in RSE). And while the games have very gradually introduced us to NPCs who have a focus outside of a specific type, we've never seen an NPC as far as I can recall whose focus is finding shiny Pokemon.

When thinking about why this is, my mind instantly went to this guy on Route 44 in GSC:

View attachment 611662View attachment 611663View attachment 611664

(Images from https://lparchive.org/Pokemon-Crystal-(by-Crosspeice)/Update 41/)


It's kind of laughable how at-odds the fandom at large is to this comment (and how mythologised Karen's similar "strong Pokemon, weak Pokemon" quote is). But I think this attitude is what continues to inform the games, and it's why we haven't had any significant NPCs with a shiny Pokemon on their team*, let alone someone who's a full-on shiny hunter. Even the NPCs who see and comment on shiny Pokemon don't seem that desirous of them; their reactions tend to be more "huh, so a Pokemon can be a different colour" than "that's rare, I must have it!"

Because if that was ever the case it's really not now (and of course, it was the literal truth in GSC, where shinies were often genuinely less powerful than non-shinies). Shinies are routinely used in promotions; the anime often advertises shiny Pokemon as an interesting feature of an upcoming movie or episode. So it's funny that there hasn't been an NPC saying something like this since this one reappeared in HGSS, perhaps because it would be so blatantly untrue.


*it's probably also because, with a couple of rare exceptions, NPC's Pokemon just aren't that important

I really like the idea (Edit: This is more of a headcanon of mine if anything else, but still) that somewhere out there in the Pokémon world there’s a Team Rocket-esque evil team that focuses on securing and potentially selling Shiny Pokémon for profit. The games have dove into the idea of conservationism a few times now, and I for one have wanted Shinies to have some actual story relevance for a long time now. (The Red Gyarados doesn’t really count for this since it’s just the one and even then it’s not ever acknowledged as a Shiny Pokémon by other NPCs in the game.)

 

[Cancel cult]

time for another round of overthinking base stat totals
the loyal three have the same base stat total as blood moon ursaluna. what does this mean? probobly nothing. however, there are only two other pokemon with this bst. one is Arcanine. Arcanine is refered to ask a legendary Pokemon in the pokedex. not only that, but hisuian Arcanine plays a somewhat important role in the quest to find blood moon ursaluna.

what is the last pokemon with a 555 bst? mega bannette.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

time for another round of overthinking base stat totals
the loyal three have the same base stat total as blood moon ursaluna. what does this mean? probobly nothing. however, there are only two other pokemon with this bst. one is Arcanine. Arcanine is refered to ask a legendary Pokemon in the pokedex. not only that, but hisuian Arcanine plays a somewhat important role in the quest to find blood moon ursaluna.

what is the last pokemon with a 555 bst? mega bannette.

the natdex players have finally been vindicated

 

[Cancel cult]

anyways, time to address something that we have overlooked since the start of pokemon. Mewtwo has been considered to be the strongest Pokemon. but why? it might have been uncontested on that title in gen 1, but in the very next generation they introduced a deity capable of defying death. things have escelated then, to beings in control of the earth and see, and then to the actual god of pokemon. and yet it is still considered to be the strongest Pokemon. well, I have a theory.

we all know that Mewtwo was created from mew. what most of us fail to understand is how important that is. mew contains the genetic sequence for all pokemon. and it is capable of transforming into any pokemon. as a clone of mew, Mewtwo should have that same ability. somewhere, in this hyper intelligent superweapon is the ability to transform into any pokemon. while Mewtwo has never been able to unlock this ability, it is only a matter of time before we get to see its true power. mew is all pokemon. Mewtwo is all pokemon given focus. that is why it is the strongest Pokemon.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

anyways, time to address something that we have overlooked since the start of pokemon. Mewtwo has been considered to be the strongest Pokemon. but why? it might have been uncontested on that title in gen 1, but in the very next generation they introduced a deity capable of defying death. things have escelated then, to beings in control of the earth and see, and then to the actual god of pokemon. and yet it is still considered to be the strongest Pokemon. well, I have a theory.

we all know that Mewtwo was created from mew. what most of us fail to understand is how important that is. mew contains the genetic sequence for all pokemon. and it is capable of transforming into any pokemon. as a clone of mew, Mewtwo should have that same ability. somewhere, in this hyper intelligent superweapon is the ability to transform into any pokemon. while Mewtwo has never been able to unlock this ability, it is only a matter of time before we get to see its true power. mew is all pokemon. Mewtwo is all pokemon given focus. that is why it is the strongest Pokemon.

Gonna stop you right there: considered the strongest Pokemon by who exactly?

Because it is never referred to as such by anyone in the games, nor even the Pokedex. The Cinnabar journals never call it that - they simply talk about cloning Mew, and then say the clone they made is "far too powerful". But that's not the same thing as "the strongest Pokemon ever".

In the anime? Well, in MTS the phrase "strongest Pokemon" is only used three times: twice by the lead scientist and once by Mewtwo itself. First time: the scientist says "[they] dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon". Which, again, isn't the same thing as actually doing it. The second time the phrase is used, he says "we dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon... and we succeeded!" Except that's said right after Mewtwo has broken free and destroyed the laboratory, and moments before he's killed. So I think we can accept that as a fairly hyperbolic statement. Even if it weren't, how could he know for sure? The third time: it's said by Mewtwo a few moments later. Mewtwo at this point is about ten minutes old and knows practically nothing about the world, and is just repeating what the scientist said.

By base stats? Sure, in Gen I Mewtwo was the strongest Pokemon. No doubting that. Though one could reasonably make the argument that Mew, despite being weaker on paper, gains a slight edge against Mewtwo by virtue of learning more moves. I'd imagine Mewtwo still probably defeats Mew in a straight fight nine times out of ten, though. But as you note, from Gen II onward we've seen Pokemon both on par or ahead of Mewtwo statistically so it hasn't been the strongest Pokemon in the games for a very long time.

As for the ability to transform itself, why do you assume Mewtwo would have the same power? It's a reproduction of Mew, not a pure clone: Mew is described as "[giving] birth" in the originals, which in the remakes becomes the slightly more vague "we obtained a new Pokémon from Mew". But the key there is that Mewtwo is a new Pokemon, not a 1-1 copy. Don't believe me? Its Pokedex entries back that up too (emphasis mine on all counts):

Yellow Pokedex entry: Its DNA is almost the same as Mew's. However, its size and disposition are vastly different.

Gold Pokedex entry: Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes.

FireRed Pokedex entry: A Pokémon whose genetic code was repeatedly recombined for research. It turned vicious as a result.

DPP Pokedex entry: A Pokémon created by recombining Mew's genes. It's said to have the most savage heart among Pokémon.

So there's no reason to assume it'd take after Mew in every aspect. Ultimately despite being more powerful combat-wise, it doesn't share many of Mew's other qualities - a compassionate heart, universal move compatibility, and (we can assume) the ability to transform.

 

[Ironmage]

We can also reasonably guess that there's some amount of intent behind Mewtwo's stat distribution, and it's not optimized for full move access or Transform. Once Transformed, the only relevant stat is HP and Mewtwo only has a slight increase over Mew's 100. Mewtwo also has lower defenses than Mew which could interfere with setup or utility sets, which would be the main reason to want more move access since Mewtwo already has tons of coverage. The ability to adapt itself feels like it was less of a priority for Mewtwo's creation than fellow living weapons Genesect and Silvally (though ironically, Adaptability would amplify its role as a blunt instrument)

 

[Cancel cult]

Gonna stop you right there: considered the strongest Pokemon by who exactly?

Because it is never referred to as such by anyone in the games, nor even the Pokedex. The Cinnabar journals never call it that - they simply talk about cloning Mew, and then say the clone they made is "far too powerful". But that's not the same thing as "the strongest Pokemon ever".

In the anime? Well, in MTS the phrase "strongest Pokemon" is only used three times: twice by the lead scientist and once by Mewtwo itself. First time: the scientist says "[they] dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon". Which, again, isn't the same thing as actually doing it. The second time the phrase is used, he says "we dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokemon... and we succeeded!" Except that's said right after Mewtwo has broken free and destroyed the laboratory, and moments before he's killed. So I think we can accept that as a fairly hyperbolic statement. Even if it weren't, how could he know for sure? The third time: it's said by Mewtwo a few moments later. Mewtwo at this point is about ten minutes old and knows practically nothing about the world, and is just repeating what the scientist said.

By base stats? Sure, in Gen I Mewtwo was the strongest Pokemon. No doubting that. Though one could reasonably make the argument that Mew, despite being weaker on paper, gains a slight edge against Mewtwo by virtue of learning more moves. I'd imagine Mewtwo still probably defeats Mew in a straight fight nine times out of ten, though. But as you note, from Gen II onward we've seen Pokemon both on par or ahead of Mewtwo statistically so it hasn't been the strongest Pokemon in the games for a very long time.

As for the ability to transform itself, why do you assume Mewtwo would have the same power? It's a reproduction of Mew, not a pure clone: Mew is described as "[giving] birth" in the originals, which in the remakes becomes the slightly more vague "we obtained a new Pokémon from Mew". But the key there is that Mewtwo is a new Pokemon, not a 1-1 copy. Don't believe me? Its Pokedex entries back that up too (emphasis mine on all counts):

Yellow Pokedex entry: Its DNA is almost the same as Mew's. However, its size and disposition are vastly different.

Gold Pokedex entry: Because its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, it thinks only of defeating its foes.

FireRed Pokedex entry: A Pokémon whose genetic code was repeatedly recombined for research. It turned vicious as a result.

DPP Pokedex entry: A Pokémon created by recombining Mew's genes. It's said to have the most savage heart among Pokémon.

So there's no reason to assume it'd take after Mew in every aspect. Ultimately despite being more powerful combat-wise, it doesn't share many of Mew's other qualities - a compassionate heart, universal move compatibility, and (we can assume) the ability to transform.

I hear you. and you have made some excelent points. however, I still believe that it has the ability to transform. yes, they probably used mew specifically because they just happened to discover it. however, you have to ask yourself, what makes mew different from any other pokemon. why not use the DNA of another strong pokemon, like Dragonite, or tyranitar? the only thing that really separates mew from any other pokemon in terms of battle prowess would be its ability to transform. therefore, creating a weapon from mew is pointless unless you also maintain its transformation capabilities. is what I would say, but there is a more sciencey possibility.

lets say you want to make a Frankenstein's monster of a pokemon. the main problem is, how are you supposed to combine these different genes? this is a very hard process. so what if we did none of that. what if instead of making a combination of multiple pokemon by taking DNA from all parties, we instead used an organism that already has the DNA of all parties. editing a pre-existing creatures DNA is probably a much easier task than merging the DNA of two organisms. that is what very well could've happened with mew.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I hear you. and you have made some excelent points. however, I still believe that it has the ability to transform. yes, they probably used mew specifically because they just happened to discover it.

Based on what evidence though? You haven't backed that up with anything other than "I think it should"

however, you have to ask yourself, what makes mew different from any other pokemon.

Red(J) Pokedex entry: A Pokémon of South America that was thought to have been extinct. It is very intelligent and learns any move.

Silver Pokedex entry: Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.

RS Pokedex entry: Mew is said to possess the genetic composition of all Pokémon. It is capable of making itself invisible at will, so it entirely avoids notice even if it approaches people.

Emphasis mine again.

why not use the DNA of another strong pokemon, like Dragonite, or tyranitar? the only thing that really separates mew from any other pokemon in terms of battle prowess would be its ability to transform.

Ditto says hi. I would think Mew's ability to learn any move would be a pretty big factor as well.

lets say you want to make a Frankenstein's monster of a pokemon. the main problem is, how are you supposed to combine these different genes? this is a very hard process. so what if we did none of that. what if instead of making a combination of multiple pokemon by taking DNA from all parties, we instead used an organism that already has the DNA of all parties. editing a pre-existing creatures DNA is probably a much easier task than merging the DNA of two organisms. that is what very well could've happened with mew.

I'm not sure what relevance this has to what we're discussing. They didn't make a Frankenstein's monster of a Pokemon (by which I take it you mean a Pokemon composed of parts from numerous other species), they attempted to clone one which already existed. And Mew wasn't created by scientists.

 

[Cancel cult]

Based on what evidence though? You haven't backed that up with anything other than "I think it should"



Red(J) Pokedex entry: A Pokémon of South America that was thought to have been extinct. It is very intelligent and learns any move.

Silver Pokedex entry: Its DNA is said to contain the genetic codes of all Pokémon, so it can use all kinds of techniques.

RS Pokedex entry: Mew is said to possess the genetic composition of all Pokémon. It is capable of making itself invisible at will, so it entirely avoids notice even if it approaches people.

Emphasis mine again.



Ditto says hi. I would think Mew's ability to learn any move would be a pretty big factor as well.



I'm not sure what relevance this has to what we're discussing. They didn't make a Frankenstein's monster of a Pokemon (by which I take it you mean a Pokemon composed of parts from numerous other species), they attempted to clone one which already existed. And Mew wasn't created by scientists.

let me be more clear.

my first point is that it would make no sense to use mews DNa unless they wanted its transformation capabilities

my alternate theory was that they used mew because they wanted a pokemon bearing the strengths of a variety of pokemon, and that it was easier to create an altered clone of a pokemon with the DNA of all pokemon then to merge multiple pokemon

 

[QuentinQuonce]

let me be more clear.

my first point is that it would make no sense to use mews DNa unless they wanted its transformation capabilities

Where is that stated though?

All we learn in the games is that they discovered Mew; presumably they didn't know much, if anything, about it before that. In the anime it's a bit more fleshed-out but even then, its transformation abilities are never referenced as the motive, just its strength:

Dr. Fuji: "August 6th. Today my colleagues will reach the site where an ancient civilization may have created a shrine to Mew, the most powerful Pokémon to have ever existed, now believed to be extinct. [...] Giovanni is financing the expedition. When he learned of my work in the field of cloning, he agreed to fund my research. But only if I would try to create for him an enhanced, living replica of Mew. I had to agree. All he wants is to control the most powerful Pokémon the world has ever known. I, of course, want something more. Much more..."

[...]

Dr. Fuji: "That is Mew, the rarest of all Pokémon. From its DNA we created you, Mewtwo."
Mewtwo: "Mew...two? Am I only a copy? Nothing but Mew's shadow?"
Dr. Fuji: "You are greater than Mew. Improved through the power of human ingenuity. We used the most advanced techniques to develop your awesome psychic powers."


Nothing about transformation powers here, instead just awesome psychic powers.

my alternate theory was that they used mew because they wanted a pokemon bearing the strengths of a variety of pokemon, and that it was easier to create an altered clone of a pokemon with the DNA of all pokemon then to merge multiple pokemon

Quite possibly, yes. That doesn't mean that it'll someday unlock the power to transform though.

If the scientists had wanted something that could transform, they could just have... used Mew, or even Ditto. Instead the intent was explicitly to make something stronger than Mew, an upgraded version with greater battle capabilities. But it's fairly evident that Mewtwo is a corrupted, imperfect copy of Mew even if it is nominally stronger. In the anime when Mew and Mewtwo go head-to-head the fight is pretty clearly a stalemate: neither ever gains the upper hand and neither manages to significantly disable or impair the other.

 

[pika pal]

I think the simplest explanation is that Mew gave them a pliable base to then "min-max" the Clone Pokemon they were creating to fit their all-powerful specifications: if they used, say, a Tauros, it'd have a deficiency with Special Attacks, Slowbro would be slower (whether Speed refers to movement or reaction time).

Mew's power with the "every TM" movepool and "DNA of everything" Dex allusions suggests Mew's power is in its versatility so that it can adapt to any condition or opposition, while Mewtwo is basically taking power and stats out to focus on what they want it to do and beat opponents into submission.

If the scientists had wanted something that could transform, they could just have... used Mew, or even Ditto. Instead the intent was explicitly to make something stronger than Mew, an upgraded version with greater battle capabilities. But it's fairly evident that Mewtwo is a corrupted, imperfect copy of Mew even if it is nominally stronger. In the anime when Mew and Mewtwo go head-to-head the fight is pretty clearly a stalemate: neither ever gains the upper hand and neither manages to significantly disable or impair the other.

This makes me think of an extended variation I hear for the famous "Jack of All Trades" saying that may extend to the way this battle plays out.

Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one

The roles in comparing such may be obvious, and Mewtwo has a line in the English dub (unsure if it was a dub change or a similar point is made in the Japanese version) where before the brawl between all the Pokemon begins, Mewtwo states he will "block all the Pokemon's abilities" with his psychic powers. I always took this to be suppressing everyone's usage of moves, hence why it's mostly them throwing hands and slamming into each other compared to the Move trading in the earlier clone battles. I note this to ask, would Mewtwo be able to affect Mew in such a manner? While the fight did come to a Stalemate on-screen, it would be a logical choice for Mewtwo if he could do so: take away Mew's versatility and assume he's still strong enough to beat him when they fight head-on as a result. Barring that it could be that Mewtwo would win a straight fight with Mew, but he essentially handicapped himself while trying to prove his point that the clones are superior in the open battle to his own ability's detriment.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

The roles in comparing such may be obvious, and Mewtwo has a line in the English dub (unsure if it was a dub change or a similar point is made in the Japanese version) where before the brawl between all the Pokemon begins, Mewtwo states he will "block all the Pokemon's abilities" with his psychic powers. I always took this to be suppressing everyone's usage of moves, hence why it's mostly them throwing hands and slamming into each other compared to the Move trading in the earlier clone battles. I note this to ask, would Mewtwo be able to affect Mew in such a manner? While the fight did come to a Stalemate on-screen, it would be a logical choice for Mewtwo if he could do so: take away Mew's versatility and assume he's still strong enough to beat him when they fight head-on as a result. Barring that it could be that Mewtwo would win a straight fight with Mew, but he essentially handicapped himself while trying to prove his point that the clones are superior in the open battle to his own ability's detriment.

I doubt Mewtwo would be able to restrict Mew's power; if it could, surely it would have done so (and being able to do that would surely demonstrate that Mewtwo is stronger).

In the scene where they fight, Mew initially avoids confronting Mewtwo directly, but eventually retaliates with an attack of its own which winds Mewtwo and prompts it to say "so you do have some fight in you". This implies to me that Mew was capable of absolutely bodying Mewtwo and was deliberately holding back from doing so - though as Mew is presumably much older and more experienced than Mewtwo, some context applies. Mew also has an interesting line, expressed via Meowth ("You don't prove anything by showing off a lot of special powers") which I think reinforces the point that blasts of power aren't what quantifies which of them is more powerful. As I said earlier, Mewtwo might be stronger in terms of destructive power, but Mew is capable of more.

 

[Ironmage]

It's also worth noting that Mewtwo is the better mon when paired with trainers (Mew is NU presently, for reference). Specialization pays off when you don't have to do literally everything yourself because others can pick up the slack in different situations.

New headcanon: the hypothetical Mewthree and the rumored Big Stall are one and the same.

 

[Cancel cult]

Where is that stated though?

All we learn in the games is that they discovered Mew; presumably they didn't know much, if anything, about it before that. In the anime it's a bit more fleshed-out but even then, its transformation abilities are never referenced as the motive, just its strength:

Dr. Fuji: "August 6th. Today my colleagues will reach the site where an ancient civilization may have created a shrine to Mew, the most powerful Pokémon to have ever existed, now believed to be extinct. [...] Giovanni is financing the expedition. When he learned of my work in the field of cloning, he agreed to fund my research. But only if I would try to create for him an enhanced, living replica of Mew. I had to agree. All he wants is to control the most powerful Pokémon the world has ever known. I, of course, want something more. Much more..."

[...]

Dr. Fuji: "That is Mew, the rarest of all Pokémon. From its DNA we created you, Mewtwo."
Mewtwo: "Mew...two? Am I only a copy? Nothing but Mew's shadow?"
Dr. Fuji: "You are greater than Mew. Improved through the power of human ingenuity. We used the most advanced techniques to develop your awesome psychic powers."


Nothing about transformation powers here, instead just awesome psychic powers.




Quite possibly, yes. That doesn't mean that it'll someday unlock the power to transform though.

If the scientists had wanted something that could transform, they could just have... used Mew, or even Ditto. Instead the intent was explicitly to make something stronger than Mew, an upgraded version with greater battle capabilities. But it's fairly evident that Mewtwo is a corrupted, imperfect copy of Mew even if it is nominally stronger. In the anime when Mew and Mewtwo go head-to-head the fight is pretty clearly a stalemate: neither ever gains the upper hand and neither manages to significantly disable or impair the other.

my second theory was actually an alternative to the mewtwo can transform theory. other than that, you for the most part absolutely crushed me in this argument. I will say that it is possible that Mewtwo was made to do more than just transform into pokemon, but transform in general, but you made a convincing argument against the Mewtwo can transform theory. the only other thing I would like to say is that I subscribe to the belief that ditto is a failed clone of mew.

 

[Axiemeister]

speaking of ditto. how is ditto formed dot jpg

if ditto can't breed eoth each other for new dittos and ditto breeding with another mon also results in another mon... where did the wild dittos come from and how are new ones born. i know plenty of people have asked this before (maybe even in this very thread) but i have never seen a theory that covers this

 

[R_N]

speaking of ditto. how is ditto formed dot jpg

if ditto can't breed eoth each other for new dittos and ditto breeding with another mon also results in another mon... where did the wild dittos come from and how are new ones born. i know plenty of people have asked this before (maybe even in this very thread) but i have never seen a theory that covers this

The boring answer is the egg group isn't always diegetic and ditto are probably capable of breeding in the wild and spawning their own eggs. See also: some Pokemon like Kubfu exist "normally" and presumably make their own eggs we just don't get to do that for gameplay reasons.

If we want a more flavorful answer perhaps they spawn through something like mitosis or budding and its like weirder living beings on this planet like molds or polyps.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

hypothesis: every pokemon that doesn't lay eggs gives birth to live young & the reason we don't see it in-game is bc it's viscerally upsetting to watch

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Mystery: wtf is that? it's in the background in the anime, in an old castle in Galar. looks like a mix between arcanine and spectrier

Edit: so I continues the épisode, and Well, it IS an arcanine, but like, a Very odd one

Like, it's Still hot glastrier traits. Color palette fot the body is swapped, etc. Are We getting mega arcanine in legends ZA?

 

[R_N]

That just looks like regular arcanine but with artistic flourishes to me.

 

[Blue glass]

What are these Glastrier/ Spectrier traits that you are talking about? Arcanine always had whiter fur on its legs.