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M&M Mix and Mega
- Thread starter xavgb
- Start date
Wonder if it's too much to add Dark Void to the list of banned moves (like Zap Cannon was back in Gen VI)
Darkrai also learns Hypnosis; this wouldn't help.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Last gen i think dpunch and or zap cannon was banned (or maybe that was in aaa but the point remains), can we do that? they are very dumb, powerful, and uncompetitive
They were banned because of how borked confusion and paralysis were. With recent needs, the two are much manageable now, so I'm pretty sure that's why they are allowed now.
pls. we have been waiting for new stones for literally ages... and you want to suspect one immediately just because 1-2 mons are broken with it? Doesnt seem like the best idea imo.
I may not know much about this meta but instead of targetting specific sets (Darkrai) / moves (Zap Cannon, Dark Void) to be banned as a result of Pidgeotite, the source (the mega stone itself) should be looked at. It is a lot simpler and saves us the hassle of having to ban arbitrary elements of broken pokemon for months until the problem disappears
But imo pidgeotite is not that broken. It is just 3 perpetrators that need to be looked at. Had this been last gen, where we had like double the amount of stones, banning pidgeotite wouldnt have been too much of an issue. This gen however, we are in desperate need of more stones, and pidgeotite is quite a good one, and there are a number of cool possible sets. Furthermore, as I have mentioned earlier, its just not as broken as you think. Drai, pher, and maybe shaymin sky need to go, thats a given. But other than that, not many things are ridiculously broken with pidgeotite. Heck no guard is even allowed in AAA (thanks Laxpras ;P).
So yeah, banning a new stone would be a big mistake imo. If i turn out to be wrong, and pidgeotite reks the meta, then just ban it then. But for the moment stick with 2-3 mon bans (tbh pher shoulda been banned a while ago anyways, and drai was expected to be banned before gen 7 came out) and see how the meta progresses.
So yeah, banning a new stone would be a big mistake imo. If i turn out to be wrong, and pidgeotite reks the meta, then just ban it then. But for the moment stick with 2-3 mon bans (tbh pher shoulda been banned a while ago anyways, and drai was expected to be banned before gen 7 came out) and see how the meta progresses.
I'm in agreement with Racool. Outside of Darkrai and Pheromosa, we don't really have anything else that's broken with Pidgeotite. Gengar is annoying, but it is still quite frail and gets beaten by Weavile in most cases. Pidgeotite gives (currently) special attackers a stone not named absolite in a meta where physical attackers are already very common.
Also with the release of Pidgeotite comes an old Gen 6 favorite: Tornadus-T
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
Sporting a meaty base 175 Special Attack and a trollish base 141 Speed; Tornadus Returns tospread confusion hax hit things very hard with the combo of No Guard Hurricane and Focus Blast. Tornadus is also blessed with U-Turn, allowing it to pivot very freely, and isn't too frail, making it a solid addition to a team.
And then something new:
Drampa @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
- Blizzard/Hyper Voice/Fire Blast/Thunder/Surf/??????
- Focus Blast
- Roost
Rising from the depths of Gen 7's normal types, comes Pidgeotite Drampa. Boasting an obscene base 200 special attack, tolerable bulk, and the most obnoxiously unpredictable special movepool since Mew, Drampa is ready to OHKO whatever sits in front of it with a "Wait, Drampa learns that?" super effective coverage move. Though cursed with a terrible base 56 speed, Pidgeotite allows Drampa to at least outrun a good number of Sablenite users, as well as the common Blue Orb Golispod. Access to roost allows Drampa to absorb some damage and continue to fire off Draco Meteors.
In short, Pidgeotite Drampa is an unpredictable wallbreaker that while not too sturdy, should be watched out for.
Also with the release of Pidgeotite comes an old Gen 6 favorite: Tornadus-T
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
Sporting a meaty base 175 Special Attack and a trollish base 141 Speed; Tornadus Returns to
And then something new:
Drampa @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
- Blizzard/Hyper Voice/Fire Blast/Thunder/Surf/??????
- Focus Blast
- Roost
Rising from the depths of Gen 7's normal types, comes Pidgeotite Drampa. Boasting an obscene base 200 special attack, tolerable bulk, and the most obnoxiously unpredictable special movepool since Mew, Drampa is ready to OHKO whatever sits in front of it with a "Wait, Drampa learns that?" super effective coverage move. Though cursed with a terrible base 56 speed, Pidgeotite allows Drampa to at least outrun a good number of Sablenite users, as well as the common Blue Orb Golispod. Access to roost allows Drampa to absorb some damage and continue to fire off Draco Meteors.
In short, Pidgeotite Drampa is an unpredictable wallbreaker that while not too sturdy, should be watched out for.
»Darkrai has been banned from holding Mega Stones. This decision was unanimous among the entire council (except IT11 because inactive), as I'm sure was expected. With the recent addition of Pidgeotite, many Pokémon that were previously unviable gained significant viability and allowed themselves to be used among the myriad of current Mix and Mega threats. While other already potent metagame threats, became even more useful, and some even became broken. Darkrai is one of the latter, broken threats. Darkrai is easily a broken Pokémon within the Mix and Mega metagame. It requires a ban for a few major reasons.
- Amazing utility - Due to Darkrai's access to multiple sleep moves, easy set-up and great coverage; it can easily overwhelm Offense and Balance playstyles without much effort. Stall even struggles given that behemoths such as Sablenite Blissey and Sablenite Magearna are non-existent or somewhat weakened prior to Darkrai's arrival in the match. Darkrai requires a dedicated counter at this point, assuming that those exist.
- Sheer strength - Darkrai with Pidgeotite hits 70/90/95/200/100/145. Such high Special Attack and Speed stats, paired with the aforementioned utility is just insane. That bulk isn't even bad for a fast attacker.
- Uncompetitiveness - Potentially a shaky argument; however, this shouldn't go without clarification. Darkrai is not competitive in the current metagame. With such a high Speed stat and easy access to multiple sleep-inducing moves, it isn't difficult to notice why many players would rather just rid of Pidgeotite altogether after seeing this Pokémon in action.
- I'd be willing to give "No Guard Sleep inducer,
when bounced doesn't affect original user" its own point.
From our point of view, the amount of Pidgeotite users that are overtly broken is so limited that banning the Mega Stone makes no sense. We'd also like to preserve as many Mega Stones as we can, as the metagame can become quite stale without a decent variety. Pidgeotite itself is not broken. The users are at fault. We'd definitely appreciate input on your experiences with Pidgeotite on the ladder and your opinion on said matter. If we do end up requiring too many bans for Pidgeotite, we can always unban the Pokémon banned as a result and ban Pidgeotite instead; however, the council and I believe this won't be the case nor necessary.
I've wanted to ban this from Day 1, thank god i have an actual reason to do so now.
The Immortal
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Glad to see this gone, but I do want to mention that it was discovered that Dark Void actually doesn't fail when bounced by something other than a Darkrai.
»Darkrai has been banned from holding Mega Stones. This decision was unanimous among the entire council (except IT11 because inactive), as I'm sure was expected. With the recent addition of Pidgeotite, many Pokémon that were previously unviable gained significant viability and allowed themselves to be used among the myriad of current Mix and Mega threats. While other already potent metagame threats, became even more useful, and some even became broken. Darkrai is one of the latter, broken threats. Darkrai is easily a broken Pokémon within the Mix and Mega metagame. It requires a ban for a few major reasons.
Why not ban Pidgeotite instead of its users?
- Amazing utility - Due to Darkrai's access to multiple sleep moves, easy set-up and great coverage; it can easily overwhelm Offense and Balance playstyles without much effort. Stall even struggles given that behemoths such as Sablenite Blissey and Sablenite Magearna are non-existent or somewhat weakened prior to Darkrai's arrival in the match. Darkrai requires a dedicated counter at this point, assuming that those exist.
- Sheer strength - Darkrai with Pidgeotite hits 70/90/95/200/100/145. Such high Special Attack and Speed stats, paired with the aforementioned utility is just insane. That bulk isn't even bad for a fast attacker.
- Uncompetitiveness - Potentially a shaky argument; however, this shouldn't go without clarification. Darkrai is not competitive in the current metagame. With such a high Speed stat and easy access to multiple sleep-inducing moves, it isn't difficult to notice why many players would rather just rid of Pidgeotite altogether after seeing this Pokémon in action.
- I'd be willing to give "No Guard Sleep inducer, when bounced doesn't affect original user" its own point.
From our point of view, the amount of Pidgeotite users that are overtly broken is so limited that banning the Mega Stone makes no sense. We'd also like to preserve as many Mega Stones as we can, as the metagame can become quite stale without a decent variety. Pidgeotite itself is not broken. The users are at fault. We'd definitely appreciate input on your experiences with Pidgeotite on the ladder and your opinion on said matter. If we do end up requiring too many bans for Pidgeotite, we can always unban the Pokémon banned as a result and ban Pidgeotite instead; however, the council and I believe this won't be the case nor necessary.
I've wanted to ban this from Day 1, thank god i have an actual reason to do so now.
The Immortal
Sylveon.
Penny saved is still a fucking penny
Now that darkrai is banned, coming to another pidgeotite user( Though might be nothing new)
Deoxys-Speed @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Zap Cannon
- Psycho Boost
- Taunt
With a hefty special attack of 160 and blazing speed of 200 which even pheromosa could only dream of, this pokemon is one of the best leads and even more than that one of best revenge killers that doesn't need priority. Due to high BP moves it isn't weak either, for eg it KOes uninvested Pdon after rocks and similarly uninvested yveltal after a bit of chip(Though sucker punch is a thing).
Also taunt is a good last move because how fast it generally is, out-speeding opposing lead deo-s and completely shutting them down and generally having a good match-up against opposing pidgeotite mons. Due to it's large move-pool,most things just don't like switching into it. Also another thing which works is how unexpected this thing is.
Just a ladder match, but shows the utility of deo-s :: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-554580121
Deoxys-Speed @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Zap Cannon
- Psycho Boost
- Taunt
With a hefty special attack of 160 and blazing speed of 200 which even pheromosa could only dream of, this pokemon is one of the best leads and even more than that one of best revenge killers that doesn't need priority. Due to high BP moves it isn't weak either, for eg it KOes uninvested Pdon after rocks and similarly uninvested yveltal after a bit of chip(Though sucker punch is a thing).
Also taunt is a good last move because how fast it generally is, out-speeding opposing lead deo-s and completely shutting them down and generally having a good match-up against opposing pidgeotite mons. Due to it's large move-pool,most things just don't like switching into it. Also another thing which works is how unexpected this thing is.
Just a ladder match, but shows the utility of deo-s :: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-554580121
LADDER
I honestly have no freaking clue how I managed to break into the top 70, lol...
Oh wait. I know why. It's why I'm posting.
I haven't been on the forums much recently, so I'm not sure if anyone's already brought this up or not, but this thing honestly needs to get suspected at the very least:
BAN PLZ (Pheromosa) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin / Quiver Dance / High Jump Kick
- Focus Blast
- Blizzard
With the Pidgeotite, Pheromosa gets an absolutely monstrous 202 base SpA, as well as a clean 171 base Spe (which outpaces all mons' without priority with a base speed below Absolite Koko), and has the movepool to easily abuse it. Perfectly accurate Focus Blasts and Blizzards (while the former may be weaker than Aerodactylite HJK... which is also seriously scary) allow Phero to absolutely annihilate the entire meta, save for Blue Orb Golisopod and other high power priority 'mons, as well as some of the less common ones like Victini and Volcarona. Even 'mons with plenty of bulk, like Primal Groudon, take heavy damage from Focus Blast or Blizzard. But even with those checks, you can predict a switch-in and use U-Turn off that solid 137 Atk (or just switch out when they're out) and replace them with a 'mon better suited for dealing with them, like a powerful, speedy/priority 'mon of your own (Pinsirite Archeops and Pinsirite Genesect, to name two that immediately come to mind), or something that can otherwise deal with them (like Primal Groudon). Rapid Spin can be used when your foe has a rather painful trap on the field, like Webs or Rocks, as Phero is a common cause of SOD (Switch-Out Disorder), and even if you're fine without Phero as a Spinner you can use Quiver Dance to set your already monstrous offensive stats even higher, or just use HJK to deal with those pesky Blisseys.
I don't have the time or patience to get calcs (college is a right pain in that way), but these stats are absolutely ridiculous. Without priority, or Goliso, a faster Mega Phero, or a Deoxys-S, you're basically forced to throw a 'mon away each time this monster comes out, and even when you DO have them, you're under a lot of pressure each time Phero comes out on a 'mon that isn't Goliso, or Victini, or Volcarona (or Blissey if Phero lacks HJK or QD). They call this thing and Ultra Beast... and I'm honestly inclined to agree with the name designation. Both the 'Ultra Beast' designation, and the 'UB-02 Beauty' designation. It's a complete monster to deal with, and to be the one controlling it is a beautiful thing indeed... Especially when it solos an entire team.
Oh wait. I know why. It's why I'm posting.
I haven't been on the forums much recently, so I'm not sure if anyone's already brought this up or not, but this thing honestly needs to get suspected at the very least:
BAN PLZ (Pheromosa) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin / Quiver Dance / High Jump Kick
- Focus Blast
- Blizzard
With the Pidgeotite, Pheromosa gets an absolutely monstrous 202 base SpA, as well as a clean 171 base Spe (which outpaces all mons' without priority with a base speed below Absolite Koko), and has the movepool to easily abuse it. Perfectly accurate Focus Blasts and Blizzards (while the former may be weaker than Aerodactylite HJK... which is also seriously scary) allow Phero to absolutely annihilate the entire meta, save for Blue Orb Golisopod and other high power priority 'mons, as well as some of the less common ones like Victini and Volcarona. Even 'mons with plenty of bulk, like Primal Groudon, take heavy damage from Focus Blast or Blizzard. But even with those checks, you can predict a switch-in and use U-Turn off that solid 137 Atk (or just switch out when they're out) and replace them with a 'mon better suited for dealing with them, like a powerful, speedy/priority 'mon of your own (Pinsirite Archeops and Pinsirite Genesect, to name two that immediately come to mind), or something that can otherwise deal with them (like Primal Groudon). Rapid Spin can be used when your foe has a rather painful trap on the field, like Webs or Rocks, as Phero is a common cause of SOD (Switch-Out Disorder), and even if you're fine without Phero as a Spinner you can use Quiver Dance to set your already monstrous offensive stats even higher, or just use HJK to deal with those pesky Blisseys.
I don't have the time or patience to get calcs (college is a right pain in that way), but these stats are absolutely ridiculous. Without priority, or Goliso, a faster Mega Phero, or a Deoxys-S, you're basically forced to throw a 'mon away each time this monster comes out, and even when you DO have them, you're under a lot of pressure each time Phero comes out on a 'mon that isn't Goliso, or Victini, or Volcarona (or Blissey if Phero lacks HJK or QD). They call this thing and Ultra Beast... and I'm honestly inclined to agree with the name designation. Both the 'Ultra Beast' designation, and the 'UB-02 Beauty' designation. It's a complete monster to deal with, and to be the one controlling it is a beautiful thing indeed... Especially when it solos an entire team.
Attachments
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yeah ive made the case for it to get banned already. Its not just the fact that it is very scary with pidgeotite, its the fact that it now has 3 incredibly scary possible sets (lucarionite, mettagrosite, pidgeotite) and its almost impossible to prepare for each one, as they threaten different mons. Sure prio can revenge kill it/force it to swap, but the main issue is the lack of switchins. Cos like if u expect a lucarionite pher... and it turns out to be a ds pidgeotite pher... well u could be completely screwed.
While it's probably not really viable, Steelixite Pheromosa is cool because the increased bulk on both sides allows it to live Refrigerate ESpeed from things like genesect.
252 Atk Refrigerate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pheromosa: 169-199 (59.7 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's also just in general more likely to live a hit, and Steelixite actually gives it +40 attack, so it's a hard physical hitter. Shame Sand Force does absolutely nothing for it. It's a good stone for Rapid Spin Phero.
While we're at it, Phero could also run Sablenite for a quiver dancer which actually doesn't have the worst bulk ever, or it could use Red Orb to be a more powerful special sweeper which also has QD. In fact, the amount of sets this thing can run is really rather insane.
252 Atk Refrigerate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pheromosa: 169-199 (59.7 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's also just in general more likely to live a hit, and Steelixite actually gives it +40 attack, so it's a hard physical hitter. Shame Sand Force does absolutely nothing for it. It's a good stone for Rapid Spin Phero.
While we're at it, Phero could also run Sablenite for a quiver dancer which actually doesn't have the worst bulk ever, or it could use Red Orb to be a more powerful special sweeper which also has QD. In fact, the amount of sets this thing can run is really rather insane.
Well shaymin is terrifying with pidiote see what i mean
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-554911041
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-554911041
Drampa is not all that great because even with the bulk of blastoinite it cant live much i tried using this set
Old Man (Drampa) @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind/Shadow Ball/Hurricane/Hyper Voice/Ice Beam
- Focus Blast/Fire Blast/Flame Thrower/Thunderbolt
- Roost
its not all that great but maybe i just gave it some bad Evs if any one finds success with Drampa let me know.
185 Special Attack is terrifying being right above mega ray and right below mega mewtwo-Y just let that sink in 127 base power move or double stab i guess is scary but the speed and bulk just are not enough for it cant even do much to a blissey.
While all of you are talking about all these Pidgeotite abusers, I have found something that puts most of them down. Basically, you can relax while the broken stuff remains.
Galvantula @ Absolite
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball/Hidden Power Ice
Galvantula is incredible right now, actually. Even if it doesn't seem so at first blush. What Galvantula does is simple; gets webs up and skadoodles out of there. Nothing else can really skadoodle like our spider friend here. Sure, it loses to Primal Groudon, but it's an electric type... you should expect to lose to Primal Groudon. No, the real beauty of this is being a lead that beats both Pidgeotite Darkrai and Pidgeotite Shaymin Sky, outspeeding the latter by a mere 1 base point. It can also OHKO them both. And of course, you can get some cheap shots in on priority-less Flying and Water types.The only way it would be better is if it were a ghost, and learned Shadow Ball.
Also, Lycanrok is alright, I guess.
E: Oh yeah, set below is from a talk on Discord. I'll test it out personally to see how it does...
Galvantula @ Absolite
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Volt Switch
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball/Hidden Power Ice
Galvantula is incredible right now, actually. Even if it doesn't seem so at first blush. What Galvantula does is simple; gets webs up and skadoodles out of there. Nothing else can really skadoodle like our spider friend here. Sure, it loses to Primal Groudon, but it's an electric type... you should expect to lose to Primal Groudon. No, the real beauty of this is being a lead that beats both Pidgeotite Darkrai and Pidgeotite Shaymin Sky, outspeeding the latter by a mere 1 base point. It can also OHKO them both. And of course, you can get some cheap shots in on priority-less Flying and Water types.
Also, Lycanrok is alright, I guess.
E: Oh yeah, set below is from a talk on Discord. I'll test it out personally to see how it does...
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I'd like to point out that surviving multiple hits isn't what Drampa needs to do to be effective. Simply put, Drampa is a Nuke, pure and simple. All it needs to do is be in front of something that can't OHKO it. Said thing either risks a Draco, or eats a potential SE coverage move. Drampa's wide(if inaccurate) movepool is what gives it a solid niche as a wallbreaker, as you have no clue as to what it might be running. Once Cameruptite gets released, I could see Drampa running that as a bulkier alternative
Credit to Zephyr Dragon Lord for assistance with determining the viability of the set:
Turtonator @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 232 SpA / 24 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Trap
- Solar Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
252+ SpA Turtonator Shell Trap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei in Sun: 223-263 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Victini Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei in Sun: 183-216 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
A gimmick that somehow manages to work, Turtonator's Shell Trap is a force to be reckoned with, especially in Sun, hitting harder than even Timid Red Orb Victini's Blue Flare. Works as a check to a variety of non-Blue Orb physical attackers, forcing them to eat a 150 BP STAB under Sun, or eat a Draco. Ironically, Turtonator actually WANTS Charizardite Y over a Red Orb due to it keeping the ever useful Dragon Typing, as well as giving it a much wanted Sp. Defense boost.
EVs are custom to survive the OHKO from Genesect's Techno Blast at +1:
+1 4 SpA Aerilate Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Turtonator: 273-322 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 135-160 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Functions as a workable check to Genesect. Again, not super viable, but something unique and it has a niche.
While this galvantula set is really good, and can definitely outspeed a good portion of the things in the meta, it gets OHKOed by just about any pheromosa, which a lot of people lead wtih