Exactly. And it was one of the several reasons the meta failed.
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Metagame Workshop
- Thread starter Uselesscrab
- Start date
- Status
Bulletmons
Metagame Premise: the timer is set to 60 seconds, does not reset after your turn. Another variant is Blitzmons, but timer is 30 seconds, no reset. You run out of time you lose.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist
Questions for the community: how do you deal with disconnects?
Metagame Premise: the timer is set to 60 seconds, does not reset after your turn. Another variant is Blitzmons, but timer is 30 seconds, no reset. You run out of time you lose.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist
Questions for the community: how do you deal with disconnects?
Lol you dont deal with them, and these OMs and varients have been suggested but never take off.
Really nothing worth talking about or improving with the idea. I get it’s mirrored from chess formats but there’s not much of anything else to say about it other than it probably won’t be approved.
Maybe you can get some OU players with an external chess timer, but I really doubt it’ll get going.
Intratier
Metagame Premise: You must use one pokemon of each of the main tiers, (PU up to Ubers), on a team of six. Any pokemon in Borderline tiers are moved to the tier above them.
Potential Bans and Threats:
-Mega/Regular Mewtwo
-All Arceus Forms
-Xerneas
-Yveltal
-Primal/Regular Kyogre and Groudon
-Reshiram
-Zekrom
-Dialga
-Palkia
-Mega/Regular Rayquaza
-Deoxys Attack Form and Standard Form. (Speed and Defense forms are allowed)
-All Genesect Forms
-Mega Gengar
-Mega Metagross
-Both Giratina Forms
-Lugia
-Marshadow
-Ultra Necrozma
-Landorus-Incarnate
-Pheromosa
-Mega Salamence
All of these Ubers are too powerful in conjunction with their stats and typing, or with their stats and movepool.
Additional Components That I Think Should Be Banned:
-Terrain Extender
-Baton Pass
-Evasion Boosting Moves
Questions for the Community:
-Would you consider this possible, or do you think the Ubers that I've left are still too powerful for an entire team to handle?
-Do you think the Idea itself is fun?
-Should any more Ubers be banned or are there any that you think should not be?
-Which of the additional components should be banned?
Metagame Premise: You must use one pokemon of each of the main tiers, (PU up to Ubers), on a team of six. Any pokemon in Borderline tiers are moved to the tier above them.
Potential Bans and Threats:
-Mega/Regular Mewtwo
-All Arceus Forms
-Xerneas
-Yveltal
-Primal/Regular Kyogre and Groudon
-Reshiram
-Zekrom
-Dialga
-Palkia
-Mega/Regular Rayquaza
-Deoxys Attack Form and Standard Form. (Speed and Defense forms are allowed)
-All Genesect Forms
-Mega Gengar
-Mega Metagross
-Both Giratina Forms
-Lugia
-Marshadow
-Ultra Necrozma
-Landorus-Incarnate
-Pheromosa
-Mega Salamence
All of these Ubers are too powerful in conjunction with their stats and typing, or with their stats and movepool.
Additional Components That I Think Should Be Banned:
-Terrain Extender
-Baton Pass
-Evasion Boosting Moves
Questions for the Community:
-Would you consider this possible, or do you think the Ubers that I've left are still too powerful for an entire team to handle?
-Do you think the Idea itself is fun?
-Should any more Ubers be banned or are there any that you think should not be?
-Which of the additional components should be banned?
I'm sorry. I should've checked those before posting.
OneTier
Metagame premise: Pokemon are automatically scaled by level based on their usage each month.
To get it started, just set all pokemon to the same levels as they are in Random Battles. Might need to adjust more often than once a month while getting started.
This is similar to Tier Shift, but distinctive because pkmn usage would be constantly fluctuating, plus it adjusts by levels rather than BST.
Notably, it's not really possible to write analyses on pokemon in a tier like this, as if something is working it gets nerfed to a lower level, and if it isn't working, it gets buffed. Good teams will vary month to month, so there will always be a good amount of variety.
However, it will feel like too many options for some players. That's okay. This tier encourages synergistic teambuilding and revising more than it encourages actually battling. People will still copy each other's teams, but those teams will likely be nerfed to oblivion come a new month.
Potential bans and threats: None. Pokemon and strategies that are too powerful are to be automatically nerfed. Not sure about a formula for this, but if there's ~800 pkmn, we want to get usage to aim towards 0.125% for each pkmn.
Questions for the community: I'm surprised this isn't already a metagame. Was it tried out before and scrapped? It's just a combination of Random Battles leveling mechanics and OU/constructed.
Should this start as evolved/upper-tier pre-evols pkmn only?
Metagame premise: Pokemon are automatically scaled by level based on their usage each month.
To get it started, just set all pokemon to the same levels as they are in Random Battles. Might need to adjust more often than once a month while getting started.
This is similar to Tier Shift, but distinctive because pkmn usage would be constantly fluctuating, plus it adjusts by levels rather than BST.
Notably, it's not really possible to write analyses on pokemon in a tier like this, as if something is working it gets nerfed to a lower level, and if it isn't working, it gets buffed. Good teams will vary month to month, so there will always be a good amount of variety.
However, it will feel like too many options for some players. That's okay. This tier encourages synergistic teambuilding and revising more than it encourages actually battling. People will still copy each other's teams, but those teams will likely be nerfed to oblivion come a new month.
Potential bans and threats: None. Pokemon and strategies that are too powerful are to be automatically nerfed. Not sure about a formula for this, but if there's ~800 pkmn, we want to get usage to aim towards 0.125% for each pkmn.
Questions for the community: I'm surprised this isn't already a metagame. Was it tried out before and scrapped? It's just a combination of Random Battles leveling mechanics and OU/constructed.
Should this start as evolved/upper-tier pre-evols pkmn only?
Weather War
Metagame Premise: If a weather is set up by one player but not changed to a different weather before the turns run out, the opposing player will immediately lose.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist + Excadrill
Excadrill's standard checks now also have to worry about changing the weather, when the turns are running low. This mole can force a switchin into a Pokemon that doesn't want to take a hit but has to in order to change the weather off of sand, and can get up a free Sub or reset Sandstorm.
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Substitute
- Sandstorm
Questions For the Community: Are there any ways to make the meta more interesting? Is the metagame too simple as it is?
Metagame Premise: If a weather is set up by one player but not changed to a different weather before the turns run out, the opposing player will immediately lose.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist + Excadrill
Excadrill's standard checks now also have to worry about changing the weather, when the turns are running low. This mole can force a switchin into a Pokemon that doesn't want to take a hit but has to in order to change the weather off of sand, and can get up a free Sub or reset Sandstorm.
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Substitute
- Sandstorm
Questions For the Community: Are there any ways to make the meta more interesting? Is the metagame too simple as it is?
Metas that change the winning condition, especially like this, don't get approved. Not to mention how arbitrary and centralized weather ability mons and teams would have to be.
I'm not sure if this has been done before, but how about having field effects (weather, terrains, rooms) be permanent unless changed as normal? This would harken back to the weather wars of old, while also allowing for manual setting to be more viable, as that will also be permanent. Granted, stuff like Trick Room would be incredibly centralizing, but it might be cool to play such a meta.
That's a cool concept as kind've a fusion with what I had, I like it! Plus it's not limited to just weather, as you mentioned. A meta such as this could be fun to counterteam as well considering taunt, mental herb, and the same rooms as your opponent to reverse them would be running rampant. Maybe even a requirement could be put into play to force one of these moves on every movepool? :]
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I can understand where you're coming from, but I have an opposition with some of the reasons cited. For the first part about changing the winning condition, I don't understand how that doesn't apply to metas such as Suicide Cup where you have to lose all your Pokemon in order to win the match.
As for the second part, you're right. It WOULD be super centralizing, but that's really the whole concept and point of a meta such as this. Have a predictable meta of weather setters with room for variety and counterplay. Not to mention, a majority of weather setters are easily exploited, as many have quad weaknesses. Ex: TTar, Char-Y, Abomasnow, Aurorus, Ninetales-A, Pelipper
Definitely not.
Ah ok. I guess we need to keep it as open and unrestricted as possible.
Pokemon Generations
Metagame premise: A Metagame that allows you to pick and choose Pokemon from each generation while still retaining the mechanics from that generation.
Potential bans and threats: GSC and RBY Mechanics (more importantly DVs)? UBERS Based Format? OU Based Format? Infinite weather Mechanic?
Questions for the community: I more so envisioned this as an OU based format but would it be more fun and balanced with the option to use Ubers? Is Gen 5 Infinite weather boring and/or Broken? How will Team Preview be decided since this is a multi-generational (quite literally) format? Should we limit items to their respective generation? Is there certain mechanics we should just auto make Gen 7 to simplify the meta?
Metagame premise: A Metagame that allows you to pick and choose Pokemon from each generation while still retaining the mechanics from that generation.
Tyranitar [Gen-5] @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
Assuming we decide not to ban Infinite weather from Gen-5, Ttar is able to set an infinite turn Sandstorm due to it being from Gen 5. However this means it has the Gen 5 stats, movepool, typing, and sprite. The Reason for the Sprite is so the Opponent knows what Generation the mon is from allowing it to potentially predict its set.
Excadrill [Gen-7] @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill is able to use Sand Rush and a Z-move due to it being its gen-7 variant.
Rotom-Wash [Gen-4] @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat
This Rotom-Wash is Electric-Ghost due to it being from Gen-4
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
Assuming we decide not to ban Infinite weather from Gen-5, Ttar is able to set an infinite turn Sandstorm due to it being from Gen 5. However this means it has the Gen 5 stats, movepool, typing, and sprite. The Reason for the Sprite is so the Opponent knows what Generation the mon is from allowing it to potentially predict its set.
Excadrill [Gen-7] @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill is able to use Sand Rush and a Z-move due to it being its gen-7 variant.
Rotom-Wash [Gen-4] @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat
This Rotom-Wash is Electric-Ghost due to it being from Gen-4
Potential bans and threats: GSC and RBY Mechanics (more importantly DVs)? UBERS Based Format? OU Based Format? Infinite weather Mechanic?
Questions for the community: I more so envisioned this as an OU based format but would it be more fun and balanced with the option to use Ubers? Is Gen 5 Infinite weather boring and/or Broken? How will Team Preview be decided since this is a multi-generational (quite literally) format? Should we limit items to their respective generation? Is there certain mechanics we should just auto make Gen 7 to simplify the meta?
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How would you choose the meta the mon gets the generation changes from? By nickname? Nickname metas really aren't too likely to be accepted nowadays, but that may just be the only way to do this unless you tie generations to something like the item slot. While limiting, it could work to make it so the mon has to revert back to the generation it was introduced. This would mean every Alakazam would be gen 1, and so on.
Also, code wise, I'm pretty sure each generation has its own batch of code for showdown. OMs usually build off that generations code, and I don't know how easy it would be to incorporate all 7 generation mechanics in a single battle. Even with the most complying sets would need to have their own code to incorporate the different crit mechanics of past gens, or minute things like the small chance for every move to miss in gen 1. Even limiting teams to one generation each could have some probs, but it wouldn't be as bad I'm sure.
Lastly, there are some discrepancies to clear up, and my list surely isn't' all of the potential probs:
>The obvious one is the "special" stat interacting with newer generation moves and such. Like, would a Parting Shot on a gen1 Alakazam fail because it doesnt have a Special Attack, or would its special just drop?
>Would a Light Screen from a gen7 Tapu Koko affect your gen1 Alakazam even though Light Screen only affects the user in gen 1?
>Gen 1 mons can't hold items, so would Trick just fail?
>If a gen3 mon uses trick on a gen2 mon to gain something illegal like Berserk Gene, would it retain its gen 2 affect or just be null?
>Moves like Taunt didn't exist in gen 1 and 2, so would they work on prior gen mons?
>Moves didn't make contact in gen 1 and 2, but would a Body Slam trigger a gen 3 Flame Body?
>Would a gen7 ditto copy the mons generational changes, or would it become a gen7 variation of that mon? There can be a lot of obvious problems with the latter, but just curious again how this gen-shifting mon could be coded. If you just make Imposter and Transform fail, I think that's a biased decision.
>Would a gen3 Soundproof mon still be immune to Boomburst, even though that wasn't on the immunity list for Soundproof back then?
These are just the questions I came up with and should cover many similar ones, but I'm sure there are more.
I think there are too many biased decisions, and even if you came with good answers to these, there's still the issue that this meta is coded so much like a Pet Mod. Any complex coding for an OM that covers multiple mechanics (abilities, items, moves, ect) is viewed as a Pet Mod and not an OM.
Going forward, this could be a really cool Pet Mod that I'd totally support. However, it's just too ambitious and not clear enough in code nor actuality for it to be an OM. You could instead focus on one aspect instead, like moves working like they did in the generation they were introduced, but even that could have probs.
Sure yeah, if they rely on some arbitrary move/switching/terrain based condition. But why couldn't a meta like this work?
Ritualmons/ (Don't Fear) The Reaper
Premise: If 7 turns pass without one of the opponent's pokemon fainting, you automatically win the game (this triggers on the start of the 8th turn since a prior faint)
Potential Bans and Threats: Shadow Tag most likely, although I would consider most trapping moves to be fair game. Checks to reliable methods of self-fainting, such as Damp to counter Explosion, and Taunt to counter Healing Wish, are definitely far more viable in this meta. Fazing moves and paralysis/confusion/flinching could also be quite annoying.
There's a few reasons why I think this could be a neat OM.
>Firstly, each battle is guarenteed to last no more than 42 turns - I would be very, very surprised if someone managed to make a viable stall strategy (it will definitely be tried).
>Secondly, an entirely new dimension is added to the teambuilding process. Should your team be oriented around winning by conventional means? Or by forcing the opponent's team to stay alive? Or a mix of the both? There's a great deal of room for creativity.
>Thirdly, it's pretty simple in concept but freshens up the general feel of battling by providing an alternative path to victory. Players have to consider both of these routes when weighing up each move. For example, when setting up with a sweeper the player must realise that if the opponent's team isn't dead after 7 turns, a switch or self-faint has to be made, both of which could be easily telegraphed.
Questions for the Community: Should the 7 turn limit be increased (or decreased)? Is the metagame too simple/ too hard to build around? Is it too chance based?
(Never posted here before, I usually just like reading the cool ideas people have)
What happens if 7 turns pass and no Pokemon on either side has been knocked out?
A few possibilities for dealing with that.
Boring option is ending in a draw, which probably wouldn't be much fun at all.
Mean option is ending the fight in a loss for both players. (Potentially) the meta could revolve around providing a sacrifice to appease Arceus for the honour of battling or something. After 7 turn there is an announcement, "(PlayerName), Arceus demands a sacrifice!", and if no sacrifice is given the player loses, regardless of their opponent's situation. Fully aware that this may not be viable for Showdown though.
Sensible option is where the two players enter a sudden death scenario, where the first player to faint one of their Pokémon wins. However, this does not supercede the winning condition of completely fainting the opponent's team. If one player has a single Pokémon remaining and the opponent has multiple they immediately lose. Granted, certain situations with this sudden death mechanic may resort to PP wars, but this is no more likely to occur here than in a normal battle.
Thoughts?
Easy. Stall for 6 turns, explode on seventh.
ROLE MODELS
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Metagame Concept:
- All pokemon will have the base stat of whichever two stats have the highest EV investment swapped out with the highest corresponding base stats of fully evolved pokemon within the initial pokemons typings, as well as gaining access to the abilities and moves of those pokemon, though use of those is not necessitated.
(I'm really not sure about how I worded this but I hope it communicates the concept effectively, let me know if I can make it easier to understand in any way)
Example:
Default BST: 90/90/85/125/90/100
If a player has a Zapdos with 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpDef, we'd see that between Zapdos' two typings, the highest defense stat is Skarmory's, and the highest HP stat is Drifblim's. Meaning Zapdos' new BST would be:
150/90/140/125/90/100
On top of that, Zapdos would gain access to moves such as Stealth Rocks, Spikes (Skarmory) and Will-O-Wisp (Drifblim) and the abilities Keen Eye, Sturdy, Weak Armor, Aftermath, Unburden and Flare Boost. As well as retaining it's original abilities.
Another example could be:
Giving Nidoking 252 SpAtk EV's and 252 Speed EV's would provide it with the SpAtk of Mega-Gengar and the speed of Mega-Beedrill, with a set potentially looking something like this:
Nidoking @ Life Orb
Sheer Force
4 Atk, 252 SpAtk, 252 Spe
New BST: 81/102/77/170/75/145
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Agility
Highest stats for each type and their corresponding mons:
Mechanics and Rules
Potential Bans and Ban Philosophy
Notable Things:
Any interest in this? I feel like the amount of possible combinations is kind of baffling, but it was that way with Shared Power as well and that meta was optimized pretty quick. (Not that Shared Power is a great metric for success, but I think this is also a much easier concept to balance around without neutering what makes it special)
Also, would it be better off as an Ubers based meta? I personally don't think so but feedback's important sooo-
Metagame Concept:
- All pokemon will have the base stat of whichever two stats have the highest EV investment swapped out with the highest corresponding base stats of fully evolved pokemon within the initial pokemons typings, as well as gaining access to the abilities and moves of those pokemon, though use of those is not necessitated.
(I'm really not sure about how I worded this but I hope it communicates the concept effectively, let me know if I can make it easier to understand in any way)
Example:
Default BST: 90/90/85/125/90/100
If a player has a Zapdos with 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpDef, we'd see that between Zapdos' two typings, the highest defense stat is Skarmory's, and the highest HP stat is Drifblim's. Meaning Zapdos' new BST would be:
150/90/140/125/90/100
On top of that, Zapdos would gain access to moves such as Stealth Rocks, Spikes (Skarmory) and Will-O-Wisp (Drifblim) and the abilities Keen Eye, Sturdy, Weak Armor, Aftermath, Unburden and Flare Boost. As well as retaining it's original abilities.
Another example could be:
Giving Nidoking 252 SpAtk EV's and 252 Speed EV's would provide it with the SpAtk of Mega-Gengar and the speed of Mega-Beedrill, with a set potentially looking something like this:
Nidoking @ Life Orb
Sheer Force
4 Atk, 252 SpAtk, 252 Spe
New BST: 81/102/77/170/75/145
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Agility
Highest stats for each type and their corresponding mons:
Bug: 107 HP (Buzzwole) / 185 ATK (Heracross-mega) / 230 DEF (Shuckle) / 145 SpATK (Vikavolt) / 230 SpDEF (Shuckle) / 160 SPE (Ninjask)
Dark: 223 HP (Guzzlord) / 164 ATK (Tyranitar-mega) / 150 DEF (Tyranitar-mega) / 170 SpATK (Hoopa-unbound) / 130 SpDEF (Umbreon) / 132 SPE (Greninja-ash)
Dragon: 223 HP (Guzzlord) / 180 ATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 135 DEF (Turtonator) / 180 SpATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 150 SpDef (Goodra) / 145 SPE (Sceptile-mega)
Electric: 125 HP (Lanturn) / 150 ATK (Zekrom) / 130 DEF (Golem-alola) / 175 SpATK (Xurkitree) / 110 SpDEF (Ampharos-mega) / 150 SPE (Electrode)
Fairy: 140 HP (Wigglytuff) / 160 ATK (Diancie-mega) / 150 DEF (Diancie) / 165 SpATK (Gardevoir-mega) / 154 SpDEF (Florges) / 130 SPE (Tapu-koko)
Fighting: 144 HP (Hariyama) / 190 ATK (Mewtwo-x) / 139 DEF (Buzzwole) / 154 SpATK (Mewtwo-x) / 129 SpDEF (Virizion) / 151 SPE (Pheromosa)
Fire: 115 HP (Entei) / 180 ATK (Groudon-primal) / 160 DEF (Groudon-primal) / 159 SpATK (Charizard-y) / 154 SpDEF (Ho-oh) / 126 SPE (Talonflame)
Flying: 150 HP (Drifblim) / 180 ATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 140 DEF (Skarmory) / 180 SpATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 154 SpDEF (Lugia) / 160 SPE (Ninjask)
Ghost: 150 HP (Drifblim) / 165 ATK (Banette-mega) / 150 DEF (Aegislash) / 170 SpATK (Gengar-mega) / 150 SpDEF (Aegislash) / 130 SPE (Gengar-mega)
Grass: 123 HP (Gogoat) / 181 ATK (Kartana) / 131 DEF ( Ferrothorn) / 145 SpATK (Sceptile-mega) / 129 SpDef (Virizion) / 145 SPE (Sceptile-mega)
Ground: 216 HP (Zygarde-complete) / 180 ATK (Groudon-primal) / 230 DEF (Steelix-mega) / 150 SpATK (Groudon-primal) / 120 SpDEF (Claydol) / 120 SPE (Dugtrio)
Ice: 130 HP (Lapras) / 170 ATK (Kyurem-black) / 184 DEF (Avalugg) / 170 SpATK (Kyurem-white) / 200 SpDEF (Regice) / 125 SPE (Weavile)
Normal: 255 HP (Blissey) / 160 ATK (Slaking) / 126 DEF (Audino-mega) / 135 SpATK (Porygon-Z) / 135 SpDEF (Blissey) / 135 SPE (Lopunny-mega)
Poison: 114 HP (Amoonguss) / 150 ATK (Beedrill-mega) / 152 DEF (Toxapex) / 170 SpATK (Gengar-mega) / 142 SpDEF (Toxapex) / 145 SPE (Beedrill-mega)
Psychic: 190 HP (Wobbuffet) / 190 ATK (Mewtwo-x) / 180 DEF (Slowbro-mega) / 194 SpATK (Mewtwo-y) / 160 SpDEF (Deoxys-D) / 180 SPE (Deoxys-S)
Rock: 123 HP (Aurorus) / 165 ATK (Rampardos) / 230 DEF (Shuckle) / 160 SpATK (Diancie-mega) / 230 SpDEF (Shuckle) / 150 SPE (Aerodactyl-mega)
Steel: 137 HP (Solgaleo) / 181 ATK (Kartana) / 230 (Aggron-mega) / 150 SpATK (Dialga) / 150 SpDef (Registeel) / 112 SPE (Lucario-mega)
Water: 170 HP (Wailord) / 155 ATK (Gyarados-mega) / 180 DEF (Cloyster) / 180 SpATK (Kyogre-primal) / 160 SpDef (Kyogre-primal) / 132 SPE (Greninja-ash)
Dark: 223 HP (Guzzlord) / 164 ATK (Tyranitar-mega) / 150 DEF (Tyranitar-mega) / 170 SpATK (Hoopa-unbound) / 130 SpDEF (Umbreon) / 132 SPE (Greninja-ash)
Dragon: 223 HP (Guzzlord) / 180 ATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 135 DEF (Turtonator) / 180 SpATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 150 SpDef (Goodra) / 145 SPE (Sceptile-mega)
Electric: 125 HP (Lanturn) / 150 ATK (Zekrom) / 130 DEF (Golem-alola) / 175 SpATK (Xurkitree) / 110 SpDEF (Ampharos-mega) / 150 SPE (Electrode)
Fairy: 140 HP (Wigglytuff) / 160 ATK (Diancie-mega) / 150 DEF (Diancie) / 165 SpATK (Gardevoir-mega) / 154 SpDEF (Florges) / 130 SPE (Tapu-koko)
Fighting: 144 HP (Hariyama) / 190 ATK (Mewtwo-x) / 139 DEF (Buzzwole) / 154 SpATK (Mewtwo-x) / 129 SpDEF (Virizion) / 151 SPE (Pheromosa)
Fire: 115 HP (Entei) / 180 ATK (Groudon-primal) / 160 DEF (Groudon-primal) / 159 SpATK (Charizard-y) / 154 SpDEF (Ho-oh) / 126 SPE (Talonflame)
Flying: 150 HP (Drifblim) / 180 ATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 140 DEF (Skarmory) / 180 SpATK (Rayquaza-mega) / 154 SpDEF (Lugia) / 160 SPE (Ninjask)
Ghost: 150 HP (Drifblim) / 165 ATK (Banette-mega) / 150 DEF (Aegislash) / 170 SpATK (Gengar-mega) / 150 SpDEF (Aegislash) / 130 SPE (Gengar-mega)
Grass: 123 HP (Gogoat) / 181 ATK (Kartana) / 131 DEF ( Ferrothorn) / 145 SpATK (Sceptile-mega) / 129 SpDef (Virizion) / 145 SPE (Sceptile-mega)
Ground: 216 HP (Zygarde-complete) / 180 ATK (Groudon-primal) / 230 DEF (Steelix-mega) / 150 SpATK (Groudon-primal) / 120 SpDEF (Claydol) / 120 SPE (Dugtrio)
Ice: 130 HP (Lapras) / 170 ATK (Kyurem-black) / 184 DEF (Avalugg) / 170 SpATK (Kyurem-white) / 200 SpDEF (Regice) / 125 SPE (Weavile)
Normal: 255 HP (Blissey) / 160 ATK (Slaking) / 126 DEF (Audino-mega) / 135 SpATK (Porygon-Z) / 135 SpDEF (Blissey) / 135 SPE (Lopunny-mega)
Poison: 114 HP (Amoonguss) / 150 ATK (Beedrill-mega) / 152 DEF (Toxapex) / 170 SpATK (Gengar-mega) / 142 SpDEF (Toxapex) / 145 SPE (Beedrill-mega)
Psychic: 190 HP (Wobbuffet) / 190 ATK (Mewtwo-x) / 180 DEF (Slowbro-mega) / 194 SpATK (Mewtwo-y) / 160 SpDEF (Deoxys-D) / 180 SPE (Deoxys-S)
Rock: 123 HP (Aurorus) / 165 ATK (Rampardos) / 230 DEF (Shuckle) / 160 SpATK (Diancie-mega) / 230 SpDEF (Shuckle) / 150 SPE (Aerodactyl-mega)
Steel: 137 HP (Solgaleo) / 181 ATK (Kartana) / 230 (Aggron-mega) / 150 SpATK (Dialga) / 150 SpDef (Registeel) / 112 SPE (Lucario-mega)
Water: 170 HP (Wailord) / 155 ATK (Gyarados-mega) / 180 DEF (Cloyster) / 180 SpATK (Kyogre-primal) / 160 SpDef (Kyogre-primal) / 132 SPE (Greninja-ash)
Mechanics and Rules
- In the case of having two EV's with the same value (for example, a spread of 252 SpAtk, 126 Attack, 126 Defense, 4 HP) the BST boost will prioritize stats in order of HP/Attack/Defense/SpAtk/SpDef/Speed, meaning SpAtk and Attack would receive boosts in the example given
- (Unsure; maybe too complicated?) A single mon may only pass the same stat to one member of a team, except in cases where a mon donates to multiple types, in which case the receiving pokemon must be from different types. Eg; two bug type pokemon on the same team can't receive defense from Shuckle, but could however receive defense and special defense respectively. However, a bug pokemon and a rock pokemon would both be able to receive defense from Shuckle on the same team
- A mega pokemon receiving stats from another mon will retain the same inherited stats as it's base form. Meaning an Alakazam inheriting SpAtk from Mewtwo-Y will not jump from 194 to 234 SpAtk upon mega-evolving
- (Unsure; maybe too complicated?) A single mon may only pass the same stat to one member of a team, except in cases where a mon donates to multiple types, in which case the receiving pokemon must be from different types. Eg; two bug type pokemon on the same team can't receive defense from Shuckle, but could however receive defense and special defense respectively. However, a bug pokemon and a rock pokemon would both be able to receive defense from Shuckle on the same team
- A mega pokemon receiving stats from another mon will retain the same inherited stats as it's base form. Meaning an Alakazam inheriting SpAtk from Mewtwo-Y will not jump from 194 to 234 SpAtk upon mega-evolving
Potential Bans and Ban Philosophy
- The meta will be using current OU bans as a base + Shedinja
- An eye will be kept on Comatose as well, if it were to be banned, Komala would still be legal but would have to use an ability passed down from another mon
- I'm not convinced Huge Power/Pure Power/Thick Club are going to be broken based on how bulky a lot of things can end up being, if the meta got implemented on ROM or anywhere else I would absolutely keep an eye on them for a QB but I think off the bat they'll be allowed to stay
- Legal pokemon that also donate stats will be on the shortlist for bans, as things like Kyurem-B, Blissey, Kartana etc are capable of some pretty extreme stat spreads and movesets
- I don't want to restrict any pokemon from passing down stats, and would prefer to target problematic moves and abilities, stat passing bans themselves would only be considered as a last resort, in which case the stat would instead be passed down from the next highest mon of that type (in the case of Blissey's HP being banned for example, Chansey would be next, followed by Snorlax)
- If an ability/move is deemed broken, further consideration would be taken as to whether or not it's also broken on it's native users or not, and the ban would function accordingly. If, for example, Shell Smash is seen as broken on pokemon that receive it, but not on Cloyster/Turtonator/Minior/Shuckle themselves, then it will only be banned for non-native users. Though I imagine cases such as this will be rare, and most bans will end up fairly generalized.
- An eye will be kept on Comatose as well, if it were to be banned, Komala would still be legal but would have to use an ability passed down from another mon
- I'm not convinced Huge Power/Pure Power/Thick Club are going to be broken based on how bulky a lot of things can end up being, if the meta got implemented on ROM or anywhere else I would absolutely keep an eye on them for a QB but I think off the bat they'll be allowed to stay
- Legal pokemon that also donate stats will be on the shortlist for bans, as things like Kyurem-B, Blissey, Kartana etc are capable of some pretty extreme stat spreads and movesets
- I don't want to restrict any pokemon from passing down stats, and would prefer to target problematic moves and abilities, stat passing bans themselves would only be considered as a last resort, in which case the stat would instead be passed down from the next highest mon of that type (in the case of Blissey's HP being banned for example, Chansey would be next, followed by Snorlax)
- If an ability/move is deemed broken, further consideration would be taken as to whether or not it's also broken on it's native users or not, and the ban would function accordingly. If, for example, Shell Smash is seen as broken on pokemon that receive it, but not on Cloyster/Turtonator/Minior/Shuckle themselves, then it will only be banned for non-native users. Though I imagine cases such as this will be rare, and most bans will end up fairly generalized.
Notable Things:
- Offensive sets can sometimes benefit from investing partially in defense or spdef to gain access to moves like Shell Smash
- Certain powerful abilities only available to mons with poor stats now have excellent niche's, Girafarig with Early Bird + Rest now has access to an absurd HP stat to take advantage of that, for example. Komala can wish-pass off that same HP stat to great effect, thanks to access to U-Turn and a low speed stat.
- Anyone wanna get smacked by no guard dynamic punch Machamp coming off of 190 attack and 151 speed lol
- Magic Bounce is pretty readily available, but several types have access to mold-breaker through investment, so stay prepared when planning to set-up hazards, or when thinking about how your team will deal with hazards
- Certain types kind of have ridiculous stat spreads, meaning stuff like psychic-dual types will almost always pull from that type. A worry with this is that the meta will become overly centred around types like psychic, dragon and (lol) bug, but I think the other stats provide some excellent moves and abilities that will allow everything to flourish to some extent. Electric for example has pretty mediocre stats overall compared to those 3, but offers things like Z-Hypnosis Tail Glow Magnezone to set-up and obliterate teams that are unlucky enough to leave a steel type in against it.
- Certain powerful abilities only available to mons with poor stats now have excellent niche's, Girafarig with Early Bird + Rest now has access to an absurd HP stat to take advantage of that, for example. Komala can wish-pass off that same HP stat to great effect, thanks to access to U-Turn and a low speed stat.
- Anyone wanna get smacked by no guard dynamic punch Machamp coming off of 190 attack and 151 speed lol
- Magic Bounce is pretty readily available, but several types have access to mold-breaker through investment, so stay prepared when planning to set-up hazards, or when thinking about how your team will deal with hazards
- Certain types kind of have ridiculous stat spreads, meaning stuff like psychic-dual types will almost always pull from that type. A worry with this is that the meta will become overly centred around types like psychic, dragon and (lol) bug, but I think the other stats provide some excellent moves and abilities that will allow everything to flourish to some extent. Electric for example has pretty mediocre stats overall compared to those 3, but offers things like Z-Hypnosis Tail Glow Magnezone to set-up and obliterate teams that are unlucky enough to leave a steel type in against it.
Any interest in this? I feel like the amount of possible combinations is kind of baffling, but it was that way with Shared Power as well and that meta was optimized pretty quick. (Not that Shared Power is a great metric for success, but I think this is also a much easier concept to balance around without neutering what makes it special)
Also, would it be better off as an Ubers based meta? I personally don't think so but feedback's important sooo-
I'm fairly unsure if this is the bets place to post this, since the metagame can be seen as more of a mashup, but I want to get some thoughts on this.
Hackmons Lite
Mechanic/Metagame Premise: Hackmons Lite is an OU-based metagame where each Pokemon on your team can have on illegality. For example, your Landorus-T could have Shore Up, your Victini could have Contrary, you can have pre-mega'd Pokemon (although I'm not sure as to how items would word with this), a Pokemon could have an additional 248 EVs to spend (just as an example), there are a lot of options here. However, your Lando-T couldn't have both Delta Stream and Shore Up, nor could it have Shore Up and Thousand Arrows (just as an example). Essentially, this metagame combines aspects from Sketchmons, AAA, Megamons, and Balanced Hackmons and throws them into one big meta.
Potential Bans: All the move bans of Sketchmons (Belly Drum, Chatter, Extreme Speed, Geomancy, Lovely Kiss, Shell Smash, Shift Gear, Spore, Sticky Web, Quiver Dance), all the ability bans of AAA (Comatose, Contrary, Fluffy, Fur Coat, Huge Power, Illusion, Imposter, Innards Out, Parental Bond, Protean, Pure Power, Simple, Stake Out, Speed Boost, Water Bubble, Wonder Guard), Crystal free Z-Moves, and some specific Pokemon bans (such as Archeops, Slaking, Kyurem-Black for example)
Potential Threats: Weavile with Refirgerate, Thousand Arrows in general, Sturdy Shedinja, Magic Guard Chansey, Brave Bird Aerodactyl, there's a lot of options here but those are what I could think of off the top of my head.
Community Questions:
Hackmons Lite
Mechanic/Metagame Premise: Hackmons Lite is an OU-based metagame where each Pokemon on your team can have on illegality. For example, your Landorus-T could have Shore Up, your Victini could have Contrary, you can have pre-mega'd Pokemon (although I'm not sure as to how items would word with this), a Pokemon could have an additional 248 EVs to spend (just as an example), there are a lot of options here. However, your Lando-T couldn't have both Delta Stream and Shore Up, nor could it have Shore Up and Thousand Arrows (just as an example). Essentially, this metagame combines aspects from Sketchmons, AAA, Megamons, and Balanced Hackmons and throws them into one big meta.
Potential Bans: All the move bans of Sketchmons (Belly Drum, Chatter, Extreme Speed, Geomancy, Lovely Kiss, Shell Smash, Shift Gear, Spore, Sticky Web, Quiver Dance), all the ability bans of AAA (Comatose, Contrary, Fluffy, Fur Coat, Huge Power, Illusion, Imposter, Innards Out, Parental Bond, Protean, Pure Power, Simple, Stake Out, Speed Boost, Water Bubble, Wonder Guard), Crystal free Z-Moves, and some specific Pokemon bans (such as Archeops, Slaking, Kyurem-Black for example)
Potential Threats: Weavile with Refirgerate, Thousand Arrows in general, Sturdy Shedinja, Magic Guard Chansey, Brave Bird Aerodactyl, there's a lot of options here but those are what I could think of off the top of my head.
Community Questions:
- Is this metagame too similar to Balanced Hackmons? The whole idea of this meta was to be an OU based meta where each Pokemon can have one unique thing about them, making this meta feel like something between a sandbox meta like BH and a more traditional meta like OU.
- Should pre-evolved megas be allowed to hold items or not? There's arguments for both sides, as having a Pokemon pre-mega'd is obviously considered illegal, but whether or not a pre-mega'd Pokemon can hold an item in addition to coming pre-mega'd is up for debate.
- How should EVs be handled? When I was coming up for the concept of this metagame, I was thinking that a Pokemon could have one extra stat maxed out (for three total), but there are many Pokemon that could spread their EVs between 4+ stats, making this somewhat ambiguous. My proposed change is to make is to increase the potential EV cap by 248 and having that count as an illegality.
- Finally, would this metagame make more sense if it were an Ubers/AG meta like BH? As I've said before, the whole idea behind this meta is to make it feel like OU with sandbox elements, but I'm also curious to see what other people will think about this.
Seems like an interesting concept for a metagame. First question on my end, I find allowing Uber-level stats and movepool to be passed to non-Uber mons a worrying idea. For starters, literally all speed-orientated offensive flying pokemon are gonna receive V-Create, Dragon Ascent and Delta Stream from Rayquaza, and any water or fire type can receive Desolate Land and Primodial Sea, as well as Groudon-primal and Kyogre-primal's gigantic movepool. Would it be an okay suggestion to either not allow Ubers to pass stats, or scrap the abilities and movepool idea?
As per any stat-inheriting meta there are always the sore thumbs that cause immense worry.
Yeah giving 102 base Defense to these monsters are gonna be a headache to deal with. These monsters on gonna be qb on the word go most likely. Speaking of Normal Types....
255 HP stats, Natural Cure, Soft-boiled, and a wide movepool add up to make all defensive normal pokemon hell on Earth to counter, would it be possible to prevent the Chansey line from passing on their stats?
More monsters on the way, tbh.
Thanks for the reply! Personally I think allowing the Uber level stats to be passed makes things more balanced honestly. It gives every type a wide variety of powerful stats to choose from, whereas restricting it to OU mons and below leaves certain types with clear deficits, while stuff like Guzzlord, Blissey, Hoopa-U and KyuB are still able to pass their stats pending bans.Seems like an interesting concept for a metagame. First question on my end, I find allowing Uber-level stats and movepool to be passed to non-Uber mons a worrying idea. For starters, literally all speed-orientated offensive flying pokemon are gonna receive V-Create, Dragon Ascent and Delta Stream from Rayquaza, and any water or fire type can receive Desolate Land and Primodial Sea, as well as Groudon-primal and Kyogre-primal's gigantic movepool. Would it be an okay suggestion to either not allow Ubers to pass stats, or scrap the abilities and movepool idea?
As per any stat-inheriting meta there are always the sore thumbs that cause immense worry.
Yeah giving 102 base Defense to these monsters are gonna be a headache to deal with. These monsters on gonna be qb on the word go most likely. Speaking of Normal Types....
255 HP stats, Natural Cure, Soft-boiled, and a wide movepool add up to make all defensive normal pokemon hell on Earth to counter, would it be possible to prevent the Chansey line from passing on their stats?
More monsters on the way, tbh.
Audino-mega wouldn't have access to Natural Cure, as the ability would change to Healer upon mega-evolving, and I meant to add that Eviolite would be banned. My bad.
With the wide variety of high BP moves and offensive options available, bulk-y mons aren't as much of an issue as it seems. Audino-mega is bulky without a doubt, but is still OHKO'd by stuff like +2 Kartana's Sunsteel Strike, and literally can't threaten Toxapex at all if it has SpAtk and HP investment.
Banning Blissey/Chansey/Guzzlord/Zygarde-Complete's HP stats from being shared is definitely something I'd consider, but I'd like to start the meta in the most vanilla state possible.
When it comes to things like your M-Ray example, I'd prefer to ban individual elements rather than the pokemon's stats. If Delta Stream is broken, I'd ban that before I change the stat buff, as changing the stat buff would also change which abilities/moves are passed, which could cause more problems in the future. Same goes for if V-Create was deemed broken, or Dragon Ascent, or all 3.
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Flying Press
Metagame premise: A Doubles based other metagame where the Pokemon first attack's type coverage in the moveset combines with the ally's first attack's type on the field. For example, if the Pokemon's move is Flying while the partner is Fighting, that attack's coverage will be similar to that of Flying Press.
If Heat Wave combines with Ice Beam, Heat Wave will now hit Grass- (x4), Ground-, and Flying-type for super effective damage, but it now deals neutral damage to Dragon- and Steel-type.
Banlist:
Doubles OU clause
Weakness clause: The maximum multiplier for super effective hit is x4.
Potential Ban: Probably Zygarde. Combining with Flying or Fire will bypass the Ground-type resistance for Bug and Grass, giving it even more neutral coverage.
Questions to the community:
Is this idea good enough as a standalone other meta?
Should I change the name to something better?
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