Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

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Disclaimer: Some of the arguments/points here have already been brought up, here's my take on it.

To be blunt, one of the few remaining things left to hold back Mega-Metagross is 4MSS. It can and will lose to something due to the absence of a move. You want to run; Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Pursuit, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Bullet Punch, and even say Rock Polish/Agility all at once. eg; no Thunder Punch means that defensive Celesteela variants can go to toe; lack of Hammer Arm means that Ferrothorn can easily sit on you, no Bullet Punch allows you to be rkilled by stuff like Pheromosa when you're chipped enough, and so on.

Regardless, there's no argument on how stupidly good this thing is right now. Probably the best mega to run as of now.
 
Disclaimer: Some of the arguments/points here have already been brought up, here's my take on it.

To be blunt, one of the few remaining things left to hold back Mega-Metagross is 4MSS. It can and will lose to something due to the absence of a move. You want to run; Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Pursuit, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Bullet Punch, and even say Rock Polish/Agility all at once. eg; no Thunder Punch means that defensive Celesteela variants can go to toe; lack of Hammer Arm means that Ferrothorn can easily sit on you, no Bullet Punch allows you to be rkilled by stuff like Pheromosa when you're chipped enough, and so on.

Regardless, there's no argument on how stupidly good this thing is right now. Probably the best mega to run as of now.
Would Protect be worth considering on some Metagross checks for scouting? Granted, I usually play Battle Spot now instead of Smogon OU, so I could be mistaken. Does the lack of an item hold it back in any significant way?
 
Stuff like Ferrothorn and Celesteela can easily set up Protect on it and check if it has Hammer Arm or Thunder Punch, but they run the risk of having Metagross switch for a counter, so you've to be wary of that. You can also use them to scout other things, like the kind of Greninja you're up against.

In Battle Spot, Metagross is even easier to check (specially in Rating Battles, once Pokebank's out) because it lacks Ice/Thunder Punch, so bulky stuff like Celesteela/Skarm and Slowbro's your way to go.

Does the lack of an item hold it back in any significant way?
IIRC M-Metagross gets a pseudo LO boost from all of it's moves sans EQ, so in that regard it isn't really handicapped. It would make a good use of Leftovers, thought, but that can be fixed with Bulu's support.
 
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INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Here's the thing about mega meta yeah he can't do everything, but when You build a team, he is often the mega that can do the role most effectively and he easily adapts around the needs of Your team and vías vera.

In the current meta if You don't scout things out Your team with flat out be bodied by lele, mega meta, lando, Greninja or some random Z move user
 

Askov

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What you guys think about Scolipede in this meta?

It has a nice Poison STAB to do a lot of damage on Fairy types, Speed Boost + SD which is great to clean weakened teams on late-game and can run Waterium-Z with Aqua Tail to destroy Landorus-T for its possible teammates and do a good chunk on some checks like Magearna and Celesteela.
 
What you guys think about Scolipede in this meta?

It has a nice Poison STAB to do a lot of damage on Fairy types, Speed Boost + SD which is great to clean weakened teams on late-game and can run Waterium-Z with Aqua Tail to destroy Landorus-T for its possible teammates and do a good chunk on some checks like Magearna and Celesteela.
Scolipede has kept up surprisingly well. It performed this role decently in ORAS, though I don't think many people used it as a cleaner. Landot has always generally been a hard stop to a scoli sweep so z-aqua tail is cool, tho i haven't used it yet. He's always been a great fairy/psychic/dark killer, and there are plenty of fairys around now.

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

It has just enough power to beat non-flying steel types after SD.

_____

I just hopped over to viability rankings to check something and saw this long post about scoli (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3590726/page-8#post-7194185). Sums it up well, although I would never not run megahorn, the damage output on neutral hits is just so much better than anything else it has, and bulky psychics are no longer OHKO without it (granted there aren't very many rn). I am down with the black sludge and small consideration for bulk in the set there.
I haven't done a ton of calcs but I wonder if not running life orb misses out on anything good right now.
 
Anyway onto other things. I've noticed a decline in rain and buzzwole. I know buzzwole has issues but rain should be really strong right now yet I'm just not seeing it. Any reason why?
I haven't really had the time to play with it but I feel like Rain is one of those things that could be really good if people were more creative with it.

You don't have to use Kingdra and Tapu Koko, I honestly think Thundurus might be better than Tapu Koko on Rain, you already have a Swift Swimmer to fill the fast powerful attacker roll, and let's be honest Thundurus is still really fast. Mixed Thundurus also eats stall alive, something Rain has a major issue with, and it can't even be trapped by Dugtrio. Z-Fly Thundurus is a great lure for things like Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss, who check all of the swift swimmers and removing them can open up a sweep, so I think it's better than mixed LO.

The thing about Tapu Koko on rain is that its checks don't really change at all, and everyone is already prepared for it.

Thundurus (M) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fly
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Thunder / Thunderbolt

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 68 Atk / 188 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Hidden Power Ice


I also think Kingdra is getting disproportionate usage. Just for reference:
| 51 | Kingdra | 3.10894% | 21313 | 3.196% | 15396 | 3.072% |
| 126 | Kabutops | 0.48084% | 3978 | 0.596% | 2713 | 0.541% |
| 150 | Seismitoad |0.302 % | 5458 | 0.818% | 4562 | 0.910% | (adjusted to frequency of Swift Swim on it)
| 158 | Omastar | 0.27030% | 1642 | 0.246% | 1242 | 0.248% |
| 199 | Ludicolo | 0.12467% | 2605 | 0.391% | 1898 | 0.379% |

Kingdra is still the best swift swimmer IMO but the high amount of fairies kind of hurt it, Tapu Fini has really high usage (though it is 3HKO'd by Specs Hydro and doesn't have recovery outside of leftovers) and Ferrothorn is as prevalent as ever.
Kabutops is honestly as good as it was last gen, perhaps better since it can use Z-moves.
Omastar is getting criminally low usage IMO cause it absolutely ruins everything with its Shell Smash+Z-Hydro set. This thing completely ignores bulk and resistances. Those are game mechanics it just doesn't understand. This thing is down at #158 in usage, preceded by garbage like Jolteon and Audino, it's a travesty.
Seismitoad and Ludicolo are niche picks but honestly I feel like they're also way more deserving of usage, since they beat a lot of normal counters to Rain with their coverage moves. I don't think they're good enough as a direct replacement for Kingdra, but they're certainly good partners.

The rain teams I see also have a distinct lack of hurricane. I mean, there's really only one good user in Tornadus-T (the only other user I'd ever consider is Moltres but it's probably really bad, Oricorio maybe?) but most teams are really weak to strong special Flying moves.

Rain is just something with a lot of untapped potential IMO.
 
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The rain teams I see also have a distinct lack of hurricane. I mean, there's really only one good user in Tornadus-T (the only other user I'd ever consider is Moltres but it's probably really bad, Oricorio maybe?) but most teams are really weak to strong special Flying moves.
If only Hurricane was a TM...likr the rest of the Focus Blast variants, then maybe it'd get wider distribution.

BTW what are the current checks to Lando-T? I'm testing out a thematic trick room team and my only loss so far was to a a team with Landorus and Mega-Pinser
 
Another annoyance with Kingdra is its surprisingly lackluster defensive typing. Dragon and Water mostly cancel each other out, leaving double Water and Fire resists that are shared by many of Kingdra's teammates.

For a Pokemon with such solid natural bulk and few weaknesses, it's harder to switch in than you'd expect.
 
Note: I'm not the best player. My teams are mainly thrown together in a few minutes at most, and then I try to fix the flaws if something is underwhelming.

I'm playing with a Drizzle based team right now, and I'm disappointed in Tapu Koko and Alolan Raichu. Raichu in particular needs too much support if you're planning on abusing Thunder (one turn for Drizzle, one turn for a Tapu Koko switch). If you're not using Thunder, it doesn't really seem like it fits on a Rain team. I guess everyone is prepared for the Tapus now? I run U-Turn over Volt Switch because other players love to switch in Ground types. Is HP Ice good enough to kill Landorus and Garchomp?


Ferrothorn is still pretty useful both for Rain teams and as a counter to them. Toxapex is another huge problem, at least for the physical sweepers such as Kabutops and Qwilfish (yes, I use Qwilfish. Weather teams allow you to get away with silly stuff like that sometimes). Kabutops can't actually learn Earthquake from what I recall.

As for Hurricane users, maybe Drampa might be worth considering? It learns both Surf and Hurricane, even if they don't benefit from its typing. It also has Sap Sipper to absorb Grass attacks, Spore, Sleep Powder, etc. The Pelipper thread suggested a Choice Specs variant at one point too as an alternative to the Damp Rock set.

I used Kingdra in my original 4th gen ingame manual Rain Dance team, but there are so many fairies these days that it probably isn't as good now.
 
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252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-Therian: 328-390 (86 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 317-374 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Neither of those 2 wanna take an HP Ice
 
Ferrothorn is still pretty useful both for Rain teams and as a counter to them. Toxapex is another huge problem, at least for the physical sweepers such as Kabutops and Qwilfish (yes, I use Qwilfish. Weather teams allow you to get away with silly stuff like that sometimes). Kabutops can't actually learn Earthquake from what I recall.
Once bank drops, you can transfer up a low kick kabutops, and it handles ferro decently.

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 91-109 (50.2 - 60.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 179-213 (98.8 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Either way, you have to predict (either SDing on the switch or low kicking), but it gets the job done.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-Therian: 328-390 (86 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 317-374 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Neither of those 2 wanna take an HP Ice

Okay, so I should add HP Ice and ditch Terrain Extender for Life Orb. Terrain Extender was for supporting Raichu, but I dumped Raichu pretty quickly. Rain requires too much momentum in my experience to bother setting up both Electric Terrain and Drizzle.

EDIT: Doesn't Kabutops require Bank by default? I play Pokebank OU.

EDIT 2 so I don't have to double post: Qwilfish has been surprisingly useful for me. Poison Jab kills the Tapus efficiently, especially Tapu Bulu (even after a Bulk Up from Bulu).
 
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Generally speaking Life Orb or Zap Plate are better options than terrain extender, especially with all the Tapus running around terrains are switching constantly anyway
 
Generally speaking Life Orb or Zap Plate are better options than terrain extender, especially with all the Tapus running around terrains are switching constantly anyway
How in general is weather faring in Sun/Moon 6 vs. 6 battles? Do most teams avoid it, or is Rain, Sun, Sand, or Hail popular? I mean dedicated weather teams, not just "slap Aurora Veil Ninetales or Tyranitar on the team".
 

AM

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How in general is weather faring in Sun/Moon 6 vs. 6 battles? Do most teams avoid it, or is Rain, Sun, Sand, or Hail popular? I mean dedicated weather teams, not just "slap Aurora Veil Ninetales or Tyranitar on the team".
Rain is the only relevant archetype in terms of dedicated weather. The others either suck (ex. sun) or are not dedicated (sand cores).
 
What is the most disappointing or overhyped Pokemon in OU right now? We all used to make jokes about 4th gen Electivire having great coverage and being an obvious partner for Gyarados, but not managing to OHKO its opponents even with super-effective attacks. Is there a Pokemon like that in Sun/Moon?
 
What is the most disappointing or overhyped Pokemon in OU right now? We all used to make jokes about 4th gen Electivire having great coverage and being an obvious partner for Gyarados, but not managing to OHKO its opponents even with super-effective attacks. Is there a Pokemon like that in Sun/Moon?
Xurkitree fills that same "OU Electric with something really cool going for it on paper but too many flaws to be great in practice" niche quite nicely. In theory, base 173 SpA with Tail Glow sounds awesome just like hitting 13 types super effectively sounded awesome, but it's too slow and frail to do its job consistently. Tail Glow sets can't actually beat many stall teams because of Dugtrio, and Z set still struggle against offense even at +1 Spe because they're easily checked by so many Scarfers.

Of course, Xurkitree probably won't survive the next tier shift. Electivire managed to stay OU even to this day.
 
Judging from the usage stats, no, there's no Ambipom-tier imbalance between the 0 and 1695 ladders. Araquanid, Golisopod, Salazzle, Ninetales-Alola and Decidueye would be OU if the usage stats weren't weighted, but none of them go above 5% "real" usage and Golisogod deserves it.
 
I've played a fair bit and have some thoughts on the current meta:

It's bad. Simple as that. For a multitude of reasons. Most notably, it's incredibly polarizing. Almost all teams are either all out stall or all out offense. There isn't room in a meta full of ridiculously fast, hard hitters for bulky offense, semi stall or anything in between. It seems like if you even have one bulkier Pokemon, you basically get cornered into running stall. Offense doesn't have much glue - Rotom Wash, Tornadus-T, Jirachi, Celebi, and others were all amazing glue pokemon for offense to use as pivots but their viablities are all to shit because of the meta making it impossible to justify running them. All of those Pokemon could switch in, take a hit, grab momentum for the user. Now with Pheromosa, Koko, Lele, Mega Meta running around, none of them can even survive the 2hko from a majority of offense's attacks and become liabilities.

Metagross and Pheromosa seem broken. Metagross being much more obvious - it's like it was in early ORAS and with 2 definitive counters regardless of movesets, Counter Skarm and defensive Scizor. The use of Magnezone has died down but it is still high and makes Scizor much more difficult to justify and forces Skarm to run Shed Shell. I don't like the 4mss argument (tbf it never really stands up when you think about it) because you can't effectively scout against Meta. You need to switch into 'walls' that take 30% or so plus rocks from Meteor Mash or Zen and then hope it doesn't have the right coverage for you. You've already lost a significant portion of health in your scouting.

Pheromosa on the other hand is probably not as popular of an opinion. A lot of people say it's broken in theory, not in practise. But really, it has exactly one counter which is Toxapex and if you want to use that, you basically have to run stall. It's able to beat its other checks very easily - scarf lures other scarfers, hp electric beats mantine (so does hjk with rocks tbf) and specs lures things like venu.

Overall, it's too easy to be beaten in this meta. Team matchup is responsible for almost all wins. Skill isn't a factor in so many games because there are too many things to prepare for, and I genuinely think it's because of Pheromosa and Metagross. So many times in teambuilding I need to work around one or both of them to the point where I have to entirely rebuild teams. In a meta as completely packed with threats as this one, having pokemon where you need to run more than one check to is completely unhealthy to a fun and skill-requiring metagame.
 
I've played a fair bit and have some thoughts on the current meta:

It's bad. Simple as that. For a multitude of reasons. Most notably, it's incredibly polarizing. Almost all teams are either all out stall or all out offense. There isn't room in a meta full of ridiculously fast, hard hitters for bulky offense, semi stall or anything in between. It seems like if you even have one bulkier Pokemon, you basically get cornered into running stall. Offense doesn't have much glue - Rotom Wash, Tornadus-T, Jirachi, Celebi, and others were all amazing glue pokemon for offense to use as pivots but their viablities are all to shit because of the meta making it impossible to justify running them. All of those Pokemon could switch in, take a hit, grab momentum for the user. Now with Pheromosa, Koko, Lele, Mega Meta running around, none of them can even survive the 2hko from a majority of offense's attacks and become liabilities.

Metagross and Pheromosa seem broken. Metagross being much more obvious - it's like it was in early ORAS and with 2 definitive counters regardless of movesets, Counter Skarm and defensive Scizor. The use of Magnezone has died down but it is still high and makes Scizor much more difficult to justify and forces Skarm to run Shed Shell. I don't like the 4mss argument (tbf it never really stands up when you think about it) because you can't effectively scout against Meta. You need to switch into 'walls' that take 30% or so plus rocks from Meteor Mash or Zen and then hope it doesn't have the right coverage for you. You've already lost a significant portion of health in your scouting.

Pheromosa on the other hand is probably not as popular of an opinion. A lot of people say it's broken in theory, not in practise. But really, it has exactly one counter which is Toxapex and if you want to use that, you basically have to run stall. It's able to beat its other checks very easily - scarf lures other scarfers, hp electric beats mantine (so does hjk with rocks tbf) and specs lures things like venu.

Overall, it's too easy to be beaten in this meta. Team matchup is responsible for almost all wins. Skill isn't a factor in so many games because there are too many things to prepare for, and I genuinely think it's because of Pheromosa and Metagross. So many times in teambuilding I need to work around one or both of them to the point where I have to entirely rebuild teams. In a meta as completely packed with threats as this one, having pokemon where you need to run more than one check to is completely unhealthy to a fun and skill-requiring metagame.
How would you compare Metagross and Pheremosa to Garchomp in Gen 4?
 
I've played a fair bit and have some thoughts on the current meta:

It's bad. Simple as that. For a multitude of reasons. Most notably, it's incredibly polarizing. Almost all teams are either all out stall or all out offense. There isn't room in a meta full of ridiculously fast, hard hitters for bulky offense, semi stall or anything in between. It seems like if you even have one bulkier Pokemon, you basically get cornered into running stall. Offense doesn't have much glue - Rotom Wash, Tornadus-T, Jirachi, Celebi, and others were all amazing glue pokemon for offense to use as pivots but their viablities are all to shit because of the meta making it impossible to justify running them. All of those Pokemon could switch in, take a hit, grab momentum for the user. Now with Pheromosa, Koko, Lele, Mega Meta running around, none of them can even survive the 2hko from a majority of offense's attacks and become liabilities.

Metagross and Pheromosa seem broken. Metagross being much more obvious - it's like it was in early ORAS and with 2 definitive counters regardless of movesets, Counter Skarm and defensive Scizor. The use of Magnezone has died down but it is still high and makes Scizor much more difficult to justify and forces Skarm to run Shed Shell. I don't like the 4mss argument (tbf it never really stands up when you think about it) because you can't effectively scout against Meta. You need to switch into 'walls' that take 30% or so plus rocks from Meteor Mash or Zen and then hope it doesn't have the right coverage for you. You've already lost a significant portion of health in your scouting.

Pheromosa on the other hand is probably not as popular of an opinion. A lot of people say it's broken in theory, not in practise. But really, it has exactly one counter which is Toxapex and if you want to use that, you basically have to run stall. It's able to beat its other checks very easily - scarf lures other scarfers, hp electric beats mantine (so does hjk with rocks tbf) and specs lures things like venu.

Overall, it's too easy to be beaten in this meta. Team matchup is responsible for almost all wins. Skill isn't a factor in so many games because there are too many things to prepare for, and I genuinely think it's because of Pheromosa and Metagross. So many times in teambuilding I need to work around one or both of them to the point where I have to entirely rebuild teams. In a meta as completely packed with threats as this one, having pokemon where you need to run more than one check to is completely unhealthy to a fun and skill-requiring metagame.
I kind of agree and disagree with you. While It's true that the most popular threats have undeniably affected team building, I feel like the shift is actually making bulky offense (and stall) more common instead of HO.

In the current meta you can't safely run 6 purely offensive pokes without having an asnwer for Lele and Pheromosa. Because of this, it's not uncommon to see teams usually carry a specially defensive poke (Chansey, Jirachi, AV Magearna & A-Muk, etc.) and/or stuff that can afford to tank a hit from Pheromosa and kill it in retaliation (Fini, Protect Heatran, Venusaur, A-Marowak, etc.). This shift in my opinion is quite interesting because Pheromosa has been arguably the most affected by this.

At the start of SM metagame, a lot of people was convinced the thing was broken and that it would eventually be quickbanned due to the sheer power it had to steamroll teams. It even got to the point that seeing Pheromosa on a team was almost the norm. Nowadays, people have figured out that Phero struggles really badly against bulky teams due to the fact it needs to KO something without dying in the process. As such, that archetype is way more common than before and it forces the UB to U-turn constantly or stay hidden for most of the match until everything is crippled.

Steel types in general are now everywhere entirely because of Lele. Lots of them (sans Skarm) have specially defensive builds just to wall the Tapu, which has led trappers like Magnezone and Dugtrio being more useful than ever. Meanwhile, M-Metagross quickly cemented it's place for the best mega for being part steel, fast, bulky, powerful and being able to beat non-scarfed Leles (and even then, it can tank a Shadow Ball at full HP if the situation calls for it.). I don't really think is broken, mostly because that 4MSS easily bites it in the ass, but I do find strange that there's an absence of checks and counters for that thing as of late (Is stuff like scarf Heatran not viable anymore?).

Lastly, from what I've seen, Stall is at its prime and that is currently working against it. There's ways to beat it, sure, but no team can beat all of it's variants. While M-Sableye, Chansey, Skarm/Phys. Zapdos, Another wall or Healer, and something with Unaware are the most common builds, it's the last slot in my opinion that determines your chances at beating it. That slot is usually a countermeasure against non-stall teams, and can be either Duggy, who easily traps and kills any potential wallbreaker that's grounded (and it's this close to getting banned just to see if it nerfs stall), Scarf Ditto, which effectively uses your answer to stall against you and can potentially streamroll your whole team, a random HO poke, which shifts the tone pretty quickly and can caught you off guard and Innards Out Pyukumuku, which pretty much forces you to sacrifice a setup sweeper. Dealing with all of them at once is impossible, and because of that it's pretty evident that's the best playstyle in the meta (the number of players with stall teams during Gene's suspect test was nothing short of ridiculous).
 
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stall always runs duggy wat

the build is sab/chans/skarm/tox/duggy/unaware. duggy is a must on stall otherwise things like choice hoopa, trap heatran, twisted spoon lele, etc. all beat it really bad. stall as a play style is on life support and if/when duggy goes you can expect full stall to go with it.
To be fair, the moment stall loses any member/wall it's by default on life support. I agree that if your countermeasure against normal teams dies you're pretty much done for.

Also, just because Duggy's the best at that role doesn't really mean it's not worth running other stuff (specially when a ban for arena trap is pretty much inminent).

(I also kinda generalized about team members in my last post, I'll fix that in a sec)
 
Is it just me, or is anyone else having a problem with using some of the slower, specially defensive Dragons such as Goodra with all the Tapus milling about? Drampa doesn't seem to be working out for me either.
 
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