Mental illness

[Morm]

Okay saying there is no 'proper' way for the brain to develop is falling prey to political correctness. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that someone with F.A.S. is a properly developed brain.

I see what you're doing here. You whitewashed mental illness as non-existant and now you've backpeddled into a quagmire of political correct "every brain is developed properly" bullshit.

the ability to wake up in the morning is a sign that there's some crazy-ass chemistry going on in there.

Umm...crazy from the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about it, maybe, but we are talking about normal as defined by an aggregate of functional human beings over a vast period of time (thousands of years) versus abnormal in the minority of people. If you say everyone develops differently then surely you must acknowledge that some people develop differently in a way that is not favorable. THAT is where mental illness exists.

Taking the drugs are a treatment for the symptoms. Do you know the difference between treatment and cure? It sort of sounds like you don't.

you just do drugs because you happen to like them! it has nothing to do with "sickness".

This is called a Straw-man and you're also putting words in my mouth. I HATE taking medication, I fought for 3 years avoiding it and when I was growing up it was the only way that I could function- I literally was violent, unable to cope and literally harmful to myself and others while not on meds. On the meds, I was successful, productive and actually rather content compared to where I was. I'd also like to point out that my meds have no side effects other than some dry skin. I don't get high from them, infact I hardly notice them except that my mood is slightly more level and I don't hear voices as much. So much for taking them for fun!

lastly, can you prove that having hallucinations is a bad thing?

They create problems that lead to self harm both socially and physically. Having never had one, I am guessing, you are completely ignorant. Hallucinations are never acceptable as they are often signs of things like cancer of the brain or epilespy. Speaking of which, do the people with epilepsy flail just for fun or do you have another take on that? Also, what do you think about people who have brains that are clearly improperly developed and as a result they are so handicapped that they can barely communicate with the world. Do they do this because it's enjoyable to them?

here's the thing: we don't know dicks about the universe. we don't know how it got here. we don't know if it really exists or not. everything around us could literally all be the creations of somebody's imagination.

Non sequitur and strawman all at once. This is the ultimate goalpost movement available to you- you are claiming that nobody knows anything so therefore I can't know anything, thusly attempting to take the wind out of my sails argument. I'd say we know a great deal about being human and what humanity looks like in a well adjusted, non-pathological brain considering we are human and have the information of what humanity looks like over time passed down to us. This is actually a rather pathetic dodge, you've been backed into a corner and now you're basically saying "You can't prove me wrong".

so what makes you so sure that having hallucinations is wrong?

because it's an experience that is about as enjoyable as being kicked in the face. Is being kicked in the face wrong? How do you know that it's not what the face was adapted for?

maybe you actually have a special enlightenment. maybe those conversations that you here are really happening somehow. i know this sounds ludicrous, but literally the only evidence you have for saying that the universe doesn't naturally have spoken words floating around it is "normal people don't hear them" which is obviously a fallacy

My ears are made the same way everyone else's are (well, those that WORK). They are capable of hearing the same things the vast majority of humanity can. I can tell you that if a noise that I can clearly make out occurs, logic would dictate that those around me should hear it- this is simply not the case in a hallucination. That means, according to Occam's Razor, that it must be something malfunctioning within the brain.

but literally the only evidence you have for saying that the universe doesn't naturally have spoken words floating around it is "normal people don't hear them" which is obviously a fallacy

Actually the scientific adage (you should know this, if you're going to call things science or nonscience like you freely do) "absence of evidence is evidence of absence." What this means is that if there is NO evidence (you just pointed out me having negative evidence which is tantamount to not having evidence in the first place) that it is actually a demonstration that things don't exist. So I can confirm that, due to the testimony of the majority of the planet that doesn't have hallucinations, it is safe to say that there aren't random universe words or whatever.

Just so you are aware of what the word normal is:

conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
2.
serving to establish a standard.
3.
Psychology .
a.
approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
b.
free from any mental disorder; sane.
4.
Biology, Medicine/Medical .
a.
free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
b.
of natural occurrence.

While there isn't a holotype "normal" (hell, the holotype for humanity had syphilis on his skeleton), normal can be established by the majority and their actions, behaviors and etc. When something happens that is abnormal within the mind, you're right, it's not necessarily bad. However, it's also not necessarily good or neutral either.

By admitting previously that each mind is different you are basically being hypocritical with the entire point of your posts. I tried to get you to talk more about this but you just regressed to "we don't know anything about the universe (paraphrase: ergo I'm not wrong)" bullshit. Basically if you admit there are differences within each brain, given a large enough sample size, of course there will be ones that are more different than others. This is a given. Since our society functions based on a norm determined by averages, laying too far out of the average is typically maladaptive to success within the society. We intervene on lack of success by physical problems in the form of wheel chairs, walkers and seeing eye dogs so why is it so unreasonable to intervene with medication and therapy on mental illness? The brain is an organ and is impacted by medications same as any organ. If it is functioning improperly, be it from seizures or hallucinations (or whatever), it is entirely reasonable to treat it. The brain, as I said, IS an organ- it is not above developing improperly like a heart with a remaining Ductus Arteriosus or having malignant chemistry like a liver stricken Hepatitis. Since the brain determines actions and the experience of being human it stands to reason that malformation or malignancies within it would manifest in troublesome personality traits or experiences. I have given you several examples, which you wrote off for some reason, such as Trisomy 21 where there is a genuine genetic or developmental malignancy causing issues but this is somehow unreasonable for you. I've also given you examples of exceedingly visible disorders like Epilepsy where the brain almost always LOOKS normal but EEG results will reveal otherwise...also, flailing around on the ground uncontrollably, spending more calories in those few seconds to a minute than a jogger running like 5 kilometers. If it's so beneficial, why don't we all do it? BECAUSE WE FUCKING CAN'T. Pull your head out of your asshole for a minute and understand the above stated, take it in. The brain is NOT above scrutiny of function as it IS an organ.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Okay saying there is no 'proper' way for the brain to develop is falling prey to political correctness. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that someone with F.A.S. is a properly developed brain.

that's pretty clearly different because in the case of drugs changing the brain then the brain is not developing the way it would otherwise. there's a difference between brains naturally being different and being made different. nonetheless, if the baby gets born and grows up then his brain is still doing its job and i still don't call that illness

I see what you're doing here. You whitewashed mental illness as non-existant and now you've backpeddled into a quagmire of political correct "every brain is developed properly" bullshit.

i make fun of (BAN ME PLEASE)s and (BAN ME PLEASE)s on a regular basis, and two of my best friends are a (BAN ME PLEASE) and a (BAN ME PLEASE), so i really don't care about political correctness. what i care about is equality.

Umm...crazy from the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about it, maybe, but we are talking about normal as defined by an aggregate of functional human beings over a vast period of time (thousands of years) versus abnormal in the minority of people. If you say everyone develops differently then surely you must acknowledge that some people develop differently in a way that is not favorable. THAT is where mental illness exists.

no, that's natural evolution

Taking the drugs are a treatment for the symptoms. Do you know the difference between treatment and cure? It sort of sounds like you don't.

if you call sadness a "symptom", then sure, drugs can be a "cure". however, "symptom" and "cure" imply "disease"

This is called a Straw-man and you're also putting words in my mouth. I HATE taking medication, I fought for 3 years avoiding it and when I was growing up it was the only way that I could function- I literally was violent, unable to cope and literally harmful to myself and others while not on meds. On the meds, I was successful, productive and actually rather content compared to where I was. I'd also like to point out that my meds have no side effects other than some dry skin. I don't get high from them, infact I hardly notice them except that my mood is slightly more level and I don't hear voices as much. So much for taking them for fun!

obviously you think you are better off taking drugs than not taking drugs. thus, you take them because you like them. you do not "need" them to keep existing.

They create problems that lead to self harm both socially and physically. Having never had one, I am guessing, you are completely ignorant. Hallucinations are never acceptable as they are often signs of things like cancer of the brain or epilespy. Speaking of which, do the people with epilepsy flail just for fun or do you have another take on that? Also, what do you think about people who have brains that are clearly improperly developed and as a result they are so handicapped that they can barely communicate with the world. Do they do this because it's enjoyable to them?

i've hallucinated loads while on drugs. now you're assuming that brain cancer is a bad thing, presumably because it generally leads to death. of course, anything leads to death, and death itself is not a bad thing. imagine the christian heaven exists and everybody goes there post-death. brain cancer doesn't look so bad anymore, does it?

asking an epileptic person whether they enjoy "flail" is the same as asking a gay dude if he likes being gay. it's just the way they are.

Non sequitur and strawman all at once. This is the ultimate goalpost movement available to you- you are claiming that nobody knows anything so therefore I can't know anything, thusly attempting to take the wind out of my sails argument. I'd say we know a great deal about being human and what humanity looks like in a well adjusted, non-pathological brain considering we are human and have the information of what humanity looks like over time passed down to us. This is actually a rather pathetic dodge, you've been backed into a corner and now you're basically saying "You can't prove me wrong".

so you think hallucinating is wrong because it's infrequent. nice.

because it's an experience that is about as enjoyable as being kicked in the face. Is being kicked in the face wrong? How do you know that it's not what the face was adapted for?

okay, so you don't like it. some of us do!

My ears are made the same way everyone else's are (well, those that WORK). They are capable of hearing the same things the vast majority of humanity can. I can tell you that if a noise that I can clearly make out occurs, logic would dictate that those around me should hear it- this is simply not the case in a hallucination. That means, according to Occam's Razor, that it must be something malfunctioning within the brain.

actually, it doesn't. it means that your brain interprets your surroundings differently than most people's brains. that's not a bad, unnatural, or unhealthy thing. it's not a malfunction, it's just a function.

Actually the scientific adage (you should know this, if you're going to call things science or nonscience like you freely do) "absence of evidence is evidence of absence." What this means is that if there is NO evidence (you just pointed out me having negative evidence which is tantamount to not having evidence in the first place) that it is actually a demonstration that things don't exist. So I can confirm that, due to the testimony of the majority of the planet that doesn't have hallucinations, it is safe to say that there aren't random universe words or whatever.

okay i'm going to stop here. if we disagree on this then there is little that we will philosophically agree on. to me, there is a lot wrong with evidence of absence. the obvious one: it is very possible that most of the planet is lying about having hallucinations. this doesn't even seem particularly far-fetched, seeing as they're told it's wrong.

 

[Morm]

that's pretty clearly different because in the case of drugs changing the brain then the brain is not developing the way it would otherwise. there's a difference between brains naturally being different and being made different. nonetheless, if the baby gets born and grows up then his brain is still doing its job and i still don't call that illness

So you admit that this mental illness DOES exist despite the cause? You know, if you put a pacemaker in a heart it still "does its job" too.

i make fun of (BAN ME PLEASE)s and (BAN ME PLEASE)s on a regular basis, and two of my best friends are a (BAN ME PLEASE) and a (BAN ME PLEASE), so i really don't care about political correctness. what i care about is equality.

I want equality as well but here is a news flash: nobody is equal, everyone (by your own admission) is different which implies betterness and poorerness.

no, that's natural evolution

Explain what you mean here, evolution dictates that some individuals have organs that will do their jobs better or worse than others- or 'differently'.

if you call sadness a "symptom", then sure, drugs can be a "cure". however, "symptom" and "cure" imply "disease"

Putting all your nouns in quotations like that is in no way a counter to the point I made. You know if you don't like how the word illness, disease, cure and symptom are used, you should perhaps consider one of the several thousand other languages available to you.

obviously you think you are better off taking drugs than not taking drugs. thus, you take them because you like them. you do not "need" them to keep existing.

unless suicide becomes an issue again. Though as you already stated I have that right...so this is contrary to what you said before. It's not about existing, it never has been- it's about succeeding and existing, especially in a communal society like ours. I'm sure you'll spin success every which way you can but the point still stands.

now you're assuming that brain cancer is a bad thing, presumably because it generally leads to death. of course, anything leads to death, and death itself is not a bad thing. imagine the christian heaven exists and everybody goes there post-death. brain cancer doesn't look so bad anymore, does it?

We have natural instincts and countermeasures to prevent death. We do not have such measures to counter our own life. It is therefore reasonable to assert that life > death.

asking an epileptic person whether they enjoy "flail" is the same as asking a gay dude if he likes being gay. it's just the way they are.

But they do still seize, don't they? Looks like your goalpost moving can't stop the score from being made.

so you think hallucinating is wrong because it's infrequent. nice.
okay, so you don't like it. some of us do!

I think mine are a bit more malignant than your recreational ones. No two hallucinations are the same- some are even caused by seizures! So, since no two people are the same I present you with this logic: If it is bad from my perspective then it is bad for me and therefore it can be perceived as an illness, malignancy or otherwise deleterious quality that should be purged in order to make life better from my perspective. Since you enforce that there is no 'normal', it is reasonable to assert that my version of normal holds these as a negative and therefore they should be treated as such.

actually, it doesn't. it means that your brain interprets your surroundings differently than most people's brains. that's not a bad, unnatural, or unhealthy thing. it's not a malfunction, it's just a function.

That's what the brain fucking DOES- interpret and act. Don't try to correct what is already correct. Mal means bad as a prefix. Any FUNCTION that is inherently BAD (and I can tell you each and every hallucination I've had is bad) is by definition a malfunction.

okay i'm going to stop here. if we disagree on this then there is little that we will philosophically agree on. to me, there is a lot wrong with evidence of absence. the obvious one: it is very possible that most of the planet is lying about having hallucinations. this doesn't even seem particularly far-fetched, seeing as they're told it's wrong.

So it's a conspiracy then? Someone, somewhere, decided hallucinations aren't a good thing to have (without using drugs to manifest them- gotta make that clear for you) and everyone else on the planet goes along with it, lying about their hallucinations? Are you familiar at all with how Occam's Razor actually works? Also, if something doesn't exist then it can't leave evidence. That's where the logic comes from. It's not saying that EVERYTHING without evidence AT THIS VERY SECOND doesn't exist, it's saying that it's evidence that it might not exist.

On the bright side, despite me thinking you're a complete idiot who pleads to logic inappropriately with little grasp on the scientific method (especially as employed by medicine) and finding your repugnant attitude towards mental health to be archaic at best, I actually enjoyed this debate. :D

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i didn't i have a fucking essay due tomorrow man i wasted like four hours on this

edit: actually this was a p. good debate. i'm not going to bother insulting you; i think you're a fairly smart guy whose eyes just aren't as open as they could be yet

do some reading on http://www.antipsychiatry.org/ and see if you don't change your mind imo

 

[Morm]

well I think it's a matter of semantics to be honest- you claim that everything is normal so therefore nothing can be classified as illness and I maintain that there is a norm for our species based on the average (and definition of the word).

Your website is a smear piece of paranoid writings. If you have ever met a non-medicated schizophrenic you would know that.

Depression is something more than a fancy word for "feeling bummed out." The processes in the mind required to throw down sucide are pretty abnormal. Anything that interferes with typical brain function really is abnormal, if something negative comes out of it then that's even worse. If you think death is a good thing I think you should justify that with more than "What if's." Normal biology holds all kinds of survival mechanisms, like epinephrine and adrenaline, as well as a fear response from a predator. You do realize that much of our law system and all of our medical system is based on saving lives. If you are as much in favor of death "maybe not being bad" and taking that stance, then you should be against all of medicine. Tell pain patients to suck it up. Tell cancer patients that they are better off.

Psychiatric drugs never claim to be a cure- they are a treatment. They sometimes do some pretty nasty things though, but it's a process, much like science. Shit is getting worked out, the best they can do til they know how personality manifests is to treat symptoms. It's improved my quality of life. Would you suggest that raising the quality of ones life is a bad thing? I sure hope not.

Edit: the depression article is kinda funny.

THE AUTHOR, Lawrence Stevens, is a lawyer whose practice has included representing psychiatric "patients". His pamphlets are not copyrighted. You are encouraged to make copies for distribution to those who you think will benefit.

A lawyer talking about psychiatric patients referencing a bunch of doctors without actually providing what papers he is citing them from. Further, LOOK AT HOW THEY ARE ENCOURAGING YOU TO SPAM THEIR SHIT AROUND. Yeah, this is no better than people hocking shit about doomsday on street corners.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

honestly i was very much starting to wonder if it was a semantic issue but words are strong things

to me saying "you are sick and will never be healthy" is the same as saying YOU ARE WORSE THAN EVERYONE ELSE KILL YOURSELF

i will reiterate that i have met lots of people

i don't think death is a good thing, i think it's an inevitable natural process and therefore neither good or bad. yeah, much of our medical system is about saving lives, just not the psychiatric part; it's about discrimination

yes, drugs have improved the quality of your life just as they have improved the quality of mine and many others'. no real medicine involved in that.

I WILL NOT LOOK AT THIS THREAD AGAIN ARGH

 

[Obsessed]

do some reading on http://www.antipsychiatry.org/ and see if you don't change your mind imo

I'm sorry you trust that load of shit instead of legitimate research.

A lawyer talking about psychiatric patients referencing a bunch of doctors without actually providing what papers he is citing them from. Further, LOOK AT HOW THEY ARE ENCOURAGING YOU TO SPAM THEIR SHIT AROUND. Yeah, this is no better than people hocking shit about doomsday on street corners.

Holy shit. We should make comics based on his articles, and they will be the equivalent of Chick Tracts.

 

[Debageldond]

This is going to be incredibly weird as a first post.

I've been studying psychology and neuroscience for the last few years, and I'm planning on going to grad school for clinical psych. That being said, I'm not any sort of expert but I've had a few relevant experiences.

One thing I've definitely decided is that there is rarely such a thing as entirely natural. In talking about how the brain develops, it's hard to ascribe "natural" to very much. There is, of course "normal" being the average development pattern. At the same time, there are ways in which the brain (or the body) always develops or is always meant to develop initially. You can't tell me that trisomy 21 isn't basically a genetic malfunction.

Where I begin to take issue is the way people talk about "natural development", especially as a rebuttal to the use of medication. The underlying assumption is that the brain will always develop a certain way and this development is only interfered with by modern medicine. This is silly--we are always changing the way our brains function. Just growing up the way we do dictates how our brains develop. As we mature, we essentially weed out synaptic connections in the brain which aren't as used (and thus are selected as less useful), and this contributes to us being able to do things faster. On the other side of the coin, it basically closes doors on things we could potentially be capable of in lieu of others. We are doing this all the time, although obviously the really important bits are over by the time we're teenagers. This is why we have critical language periods. Japanese people who grew up without exposure to English or other such languages actually can't hear some of the intricacies of the language like "L" and "R" sounds. By learning a language, we are altering our neural structure.

Also as far as brain chemistry is concerned, it's difficult because yes, it's not like there's a virus or something that's labeled OCD, ADHD, or what have you. I see most psychological disorders as some sort of developmental issues. People grumble a lot about medication, and sometimes they have reasons to be upset. There are and will always be bad psychiatrists and psychologists, as there are bad doctors, lawyers, and teachers. Unfortunately, running into one of them can make you feel taken advantage of or just generally inferior. So lots of people who have bad experiences with a therapist or something won't go back and it leads them to want to prove they aren't whatever that person thought they were. It's like wanting to flaunt some sort of success in life to some teacher who thought poorly of you.

But back to the medication issue: it's all about doing whatever is possible if there is a problem. Yes, lots of people have more minor psychological issues, but then what of the people with clear needs? What about the people who might have killed themselves if they hadn't had antidepressants? The mild paranoid schizophrenic who's able to live a relatively pleasant life who otherwise would have been miserable and a potential threat to themselves and others? The idea of something being "too unnatural" is at its core, religious. If you're religious, that's fine, but not everyone is. For some people, it's doing whatever is necessary to get by. I interned at a center for mostly low-functioning schizophrenics last year (yes, you could call it a loony bin), and these were not people who were just misunderstood and unfairly categorized, they had actual difficulties doing what for most of us would be incredibly basic things. Even then, they were doing much better than if they had no access to medication or care in general.

Also, schizophrenia is totally real. In most cases when patients are older, the ventricles of the brain have enlarged. That means that brain matter has died/disappeared in one way or another. As far as cause with a lot of mental illnesses, it can be really murky and unclear. But for the most part, these are real things. If you want to debate the existence of mental problems, go for personality disorders. Criteria changes a lot and oftentimes they reflect societal values more than actual mental illness. But something like major depression has its roots in production and volume of certain neurotransmitters.

Also, the bit Morm posted about succeeding is absolutely true. You can have whatever definition you want of success, but coping with mental illness of any sort is being allowed to achieve success, however you define it. Because someone else thinks you should do whatever you're doing a certain way (i.e. "you should just be able to handle it because that's the way you were born") does not invalidate how you feel and live. If we all followed that idea, we would never use cars, toilets or any sort of tool. Certainly not the internet. That is the essence of human intelligence, isn't it? Using tools to adapt?

Also, regarding the anti-psychiatry thing, yes, there is a whole lot that psychiatry has done wrong in the past, but I'm confused when people don't extend this to other professions. Have we improved as a society over time? Absolutely, which means that things didn't always work well before. I don't think anyone should be treated for anything unless there's a reason to, but a bad practitioner of any profession is not a reason to completely discredit the profession. It's essentially like saying you're against all black people if you get mugged by a black guy. As has been said before, a lot of these medications have bad side-effects, and if they aren't administered properly, the effects are devastating. But they can also be used to make it so a person who won't otherwise have a chance does have a chance to "succeed". Sometimes medications will be a gamble because not everything is known about certain side-effects, but this is pervasive throughout medicine. I do absolutely agree with the idea that drug company money causes doctors to push certain drugs which leads to bad diagnoses, and that's a problem throughout medicine. Of course, that has more to do with terrible political policy than the validity of treatments.

 

[Morm]

UmbreonDan:
Real medicine is what medical boards say is real medicine, actually. These drugs are built on current data, tested like crazy with INSANE strict protocols, peer reviewed out the ass til they are finally available. IF a problem is noted with them after, as can happen, they are pulled from use and alternatives are used. Things like drug chirality are HUGE now- molecular spiral (lets say the right handed one for an example) can have negative impacts and the other (lets say the left handed one for an example) can be very helpful. Together they basically cancel each other out but if you remove the right handed one you get great results. I can attest to this, I've smelled left handed keytones that smell just like shit and then the same molecule, right handed, that smelled like fake grape goodness. Just mirror images but MANNN big difference. So it's more than just growing the most potent brand of weed, it's about "DO NOT HARM" and improving life.

To be honest, they don't say you'll never be healthy they say that there are treatments like talk therapy (which can help with the 90% of idiots who just need to talk) and then there are cases where drugs are needed to improve their life because there is something legitimately making them unhappy, unproductive or even dangerous to others that is biological and out of their control.

I don't see how psychiatry is about discrimination at all! Modern psych therapies work towards goals and helping people solve things that they see as problems themselves.

Have you ever met an unmedicated schizophrenic? I desperately want to, I've met medicated ones who talk about their experience- man, they are fucked. I desperately want to meet a non dangerous psychopath or sociopath (same thing???) to see if I can size them up like they can me in 30 minutes or so.

I still say death is less than favorable and you agree- it's natural, but it is something all living things strive to prevent. I'd suggest that means it is bad from the perspective of a living thing.

YOU WILL ITS A FUN DEBATE JUST DON'T DO IT WHILE ESSAY IS DUE

Debageldond:
that was a VERY good first post indeed. This subforum needs contributions like that, I appreciate it! Well done.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Seriously, I just don't see how he kept getting up (unless he gets up again). As soon as Umbreon Dan posted my mind went blank. Why would someone think this? How could someone really believe this?

Its like a heavy handed hippy with paranoia issues. "Yeaaah maaaaan illness's in the head arent real, they just dont exist. Its a fabrication from the government and doctors trying to push medication on youuuu. If a dude is living life as he always has then hes fine right mannn? Let him beeee, he exists as he always has and thats just how the world has made him. We don't need doctors tellin us whats right and wrong on how we areeee! Who are they to judge what is superior, I just figure he is special. Its all one giant conspiracy to make us all the sameeee!"

That right there ^^^^ is exactly what I saw coming out of him. It was ridiculous and I could not fathom how anyone could think that way, denying autism and schizophrenia, nor could I come up with an argument to debate against such black and white viewing.

Morm is right and said everything that needed to be said, so I applaud him at that. And he dealed with his argument which was full of strawman and an elitist attitude, not to mention the paranoid bias he had against everything.

The one thing he said: "actually this was a p. good debate. i'm not going to bother insulting you; i think you're a fairly smart guy whose eyes just aren't as open as they could be yet." That has got to be one of the most arrogant and elitist things I have heard ever. In other words: "Good debate, Im not going to insult you, but you're close minded unlike me."

Also, Debageldond, great first post. I wonder what made you lurk this forum and post here first on SMOGON but seriously nice. Thank you for piping in.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

what's wrong with being a hippie? i'm a pacifist, i'm anti-establishment, i enjoy sex and drugs, and i'm all about equality and freedom

i am a hippie in every sense except musical taste and dress. in fact i would argue that the hippie movement was one of the best things that ever happened to the western world

 

[Myzozoa]

I have synesthesia, its not strong enough to be classified as a disorder in my case. Synesthesia is a huge advantage in terms of memory in my opinion. Its like your brain automatically color codes everything. I was really shocked the first time I found out that people dont all have synesthesia because its like an automatic natural thing that is ingrained to the point that you dont even know it has a name until someone tells you what it is. I bet there are people on smogon who have who dont even know what it is and I have never even realized that they have it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

 

[ivar]

umbreon dan you got crushed by morm

 

[gvmgvm40]

I have a schizophreniac aunt that has made life hell for my uncle and my cousins. She's clearly not normal - she has trouble holding up a real conversation (alogia - poverty of speech). She used to beat my cousins for no apparent reason at all and on multiple occasions threatened to kill my uncle.

Mental illnesses are called illnesses for a reason. You can't "get over" clinical depression. You can't have normal personal relations if you actually have autism. You need treatment to function properly.

 

[tape]

what's wrong with being a hippie? i'm a pacifist, i'm anti-establishment, i enjoy sex and drugs, and i'm all about equality and freedom

i am a hippie in every sense except musical taste and dress. in fact i would argue that the hippie movement was one of the best things that ever happened to the western world

I wish you had said this from the start so I could've stopped reading all this shit.

Morm: 10/10

The last 2 pages have actually made me think about going back to the psych...

edit: this day too

 

[MrIndigo]

While I agree with Umbreon Dan that there's a lot of pathologising of normal behaviour (e.g. male children are diagnosed with ADHD at roughly 2.5x the rate the girls are, and are prescribed ritalin at five times the rate; it's unlikely to be because boys are more prone to ADHD developing, but because ADHD girls tend to sit in the corner and refuse to participate with others, whereas boys tend to be more active regardless and so their ADHD is harder to interact with and more disruptive), it is dramatically oversimplifying to say PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT AND THATS JUST FINE THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THEIR MENTAL HEALTH.

It's not true, and it is pretty insulting to people suffering from mental illnesses and those that study mental health and medicine to say it's all a great conspiracy. The fact that mental health is a continuum rather than a hardline test doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

 

[Debageldond]

While I agree with Umbreon Dan that there's a lot of pathologising of normal behaviour (e.g. male children are diagnosed with ADHD at roughly 2.5x the rate the girls are, and are prescribed ritalin at five times the rate; it's unlikely to be because boys are more prone to ADHD developing, but because ADHD girls tend to sit in the corner and refuse to participate with others, whereas boys tend to be more active regardless and so their ADHD is harder to interact with and more disruptive), it is dramatically oversimplifying to say PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT AND THATS JUST FINE THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THEIR MENTAL HEALTH

Thank you so much for saying this, seriously, it's totally true. Honestly, I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was younger. After a rather complicated situation where I basically fought against everything, I was fine for several years. Then, in the middle of college, I basically ran out of juice and had a hard time doing just about anything. I basically swallowed my pride and stopped being such a denial-driven dick about it and a low dose of Ritalin has done wonders for my ability take on larger tasks when I'm not necessarily in the mood to (papers, etc.).

I'm actually a little ambivalent with regards to (over)medication of kids. A lot of the time, it's helpful. Other times, the kid is just growing up. But most of the time when kids are getting prescribed psych drugs that aren't effective it's because of trigger-happy GPs/family doctors who treat psych disorders far too heavy-handedly.

 

[LeviLamprey]

Soemtimes it's appropriate, sometimes it's unneccessary and sometimes it doesn't really matter. Medication IS extremely useful when needed, like you say. I agree with the trigger-happy doctor thing. My first psychiatrist was eager to pop me the pills before I needed any, but my second one actually had a huge reluctance to put me on them. once I finished my extended course my disorder was repressed. It still is greatly suppressed now and I don't even take a second thought that I'll need psych-meds again.

 

[MrIndigo]

Thank you so much for saying this, seriously, it's totally true. Honestly, I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was younger. After a rather complicated situation where I basically fought against everything, I was fine for several years. Then, in the middle of college, I basically ran out of juice and had a hard time doing just about anything. I basically swallowed my pride and stopped being such a denial-driven dick about it and a low dose of Ritalin has done wonders for my ability take on larger tasks when I'm not necessarily in the mood to (papers, etc.).

I'm actually a little ambivalent with regards to (over)medication of kids. A lot of the time, it's helpful. Other times, the kid is just growing up. But most of the time when kids are getting prescribed psych drugs that aren't effective it's because of trigger-happy GPs/family doctors who treat psych disorders far too heavy-handedly.

I think in many cases, especially with Ritalin, it's not so much the heavy-handed doctors so much as incapable parents. There are definitely cases where medication is needed, but for the most part, especially with boys, it's because the parents don't want to or can't deal with parenting their kid (whether or not they actually have ADHD) and want the simple solution to do it for them.

 

[Morm]

It's because ADHD was a craze and, like any psych deal, all you need is like 7/9 sometimes vague symptoms to throw it down. I had/have it, hit every single diagnostic criteria in an extreme way. I was inpatient hospitalized in grade 6 and came out a functioning human being. That functionality has dropped off significantly right at the predictable age of the early 20's, when male onset schizophrenia and other shit crops up because the brain happens to be done developing at that time.

Though we could call all that coincidence.