Sorry if this post is going to be long, but there's a lot to say about Mega Evolution and I believe we're heading in the wrong direction. This is probably better as a few smaller posts, but with the 48-hour warning posted I have no choice but to waterboard this thread with text :P.So here's a Mega Post about Mega Evolution.
I'm heavily against making Mega Evolutions for existing CAP Pokemon. For years, CAP has been firmly against revising existing CAP Pokemon. Each CAP we make is a relic for a previous metagame. We did not do 5th-Gen updates for 4th-Gen CAPs and disallowed revising existing CAPs. We disagreed with CAP revisions so fervently that we undid any revisions that existed at the time. Mega Evolutions for existing CAP Pokemon are little more than revisions and should be treated as such. Although the Policy Review thread on CAP Revisions delayed the decision on revisions, there has been no outcry to deal with revisions until now. During the year and a half (and four CAPs) since we've had that Policy Review, nobody has wanted to go back and look at it. Birkal openly invited any PRC member to PM a mod and reopen the discussion and nobody has done so as far as I know. I assume if someone did so before now then the PRC would have already discussed revisions. It's not a coincidence that
now we care about revisions since they represent a serious obstacle to Mega Evolutions to existing CAPs. Reviving (necromancing?) the thread on CAP Revisions seems more like a desperate attempt to reconcile existing CAP sentiment with a desire to shoehorn Mega Evolution into CAP than a desire to discuss revising CAPs. It is certainly not in the spirit of the original thread.
Mega Evolutions for existing CAPs are at worst a poor attempt to pay lip service to Mega Evolution and at best inferior to creating a Pokemon with a Mega Evolution from scratch. Besides the fact that giving an existing CAP a Mega Evolution would require upgrading it for the fifth
and/or sixth generations, it would also prescribe a base form for us. We would already have at least one type decided for us, an idea of what our base stats would be, and, depending on policy, our movepool decided before we even got to the first discussion. Concerning the movepool, we would either have to break CAP tradition and update a CAP's movepool during the process or forgo any movepool discussion at all. If we were to make a Mega Evolution, we would likely choose the former option, as jas61292 stated. I agree with jas61292 that if we were to Mega Evolve existing CAPs, we would have to update their movepools to the sixth generation. I see that as a convincing argument against Mega Evolving existing CAPs rather than for doing so.
Why deprive ourselves of creating an entire Pokemon from scratch and apply the crutch of choosing a base form to Mega Evolve? Do we really want to rob ourselves of half a Typing Discussion, two-thirds of an Abilities Discussion, and most of our Movepool Discussion just to shoehorn Mega Evolution into a process? People are going to be demanding Mega Evolutions no doubt. However, we should not be pandering to the people who want Mega Evolutions for no other reason than wanting Mega Evolutions. CAP has always been about the process, not the product. Taking a CAP, gutting at least half of the discussions and trying to stick on a second concept would make for one of the worst processes imaginable. There is no way to properly explore Mega Evolution
and have a decent process when we've already prescribed half of the Pokemon before the first discussion. The only way to do so is to create the base form and the Mega Evolution concurrently. Mega Evolution for existing CAPs is a "worst of both worlds" solution.
Seriously, can anyone here say it would be a fun or informative process to create a Mega Evolution without discussing anything about the base form besides moves introduced in the fifth and sixth generations? We wouldn't get to discuss the base form's typing, abilities, stats, or any moves introduced in generations 1,2,3 or 4. If we Mega Evolve a fifth-gen CAP, add 5 to that list. We wouldn't get to discuss the base form's concept, either. All we would do is possibly change one of the two typings (we wouldn't even get to choose which one), change the BST by an
exact, predetermined amount (100*), and stick on
one Ability. Furthermore, what about the new type introduced in Gen 6? Would we have a "Should We Make Cyclohm a Fairy-Type Discussion" when making these Mega Evolutions? Because that sounds like a train-wreck of a thread waiting to happen. If the process of updating past-gen CAPs is not a complete and utter bastardization of the CAP process then I don't know what is.
I'd like to respond to Doug's original post concerning Mega Evolutions for existing Pokemon.
DougJustDoug said:
Gamefreak only gave Mega Evolutions to pokemon from previous gens, so perhaps that is what CAP should do too. Consider the following:
- CAP has been wrangling with "Evolve-A-Pokemon" proposals since the early DP days. The notorious "EVO Project" is the most famous, but definitely not the only time we have considered or tried to evolve existing pokemon.
- CAP has done "revisions" to our previously created pokemon, to make them more powerful and more relevant in the competitive metagame. The results were generally considered to be not great, and we decided to roll all pokemon back to their originally created state. Since that time, there have been numerous requests to update past creations.
- There have been multiple suggestions to do a "Create-An-Uber" project at various times in CAP history. These were generally positioned as "fun projects", but also were meant to experiment with pokemon power levels above the OU norm.
Perhaps Mega Evolution is the vehicle to tie this all together in a way that Create-A-Pokemon can actually use as the basis for a community project?
With all due respect, this seems like a way to get the most "bang for your buck" by getting the most product for the least process. As nice as that seems, that's not the thinking that's guided the CAP project since its inception. The EVO Project and CAP revisions are both considered failures and I'm not sure what facts back up the claim that "there have been numerous requests to update past creations". The only request I see in the past two years is the inconclusive CAP Revisions PR that jas61292 linked to, and I believe the PRC's silence since then has spoken volumes about how we, as a PRC, are largely anti-revisions. Trying to have Mega Evolution fill
three roles at once seems like we're spreading ourselves too thinly, especially when two of those roles have been tried and failed in the past. Do you believe we have a legitimate change of evolving an existing CAP, making reasonable revisions, and fitting that Pokemon into the Uber metagame? Especially when we have the base form prescribed for us? I have no doubt that we could make a Mega Evolution from scratch and fit it nicely into the Uber metagame. But it would take countless amounts of Uber metagame study in order to create a Pokemon capable of fulfilling a concept selected for the Uber metagame. Not to mention that any Mega Evolution would almost certainly be an optics disaster: an Uber Mega Evolution of an existing CAP would need to be powerful enough to succeed in the Uber metagame without its item. Not only would we have the BST and half the movepool set in stone, we'd have to throw just about every trick in the book at this Pokemon to get it to work.
Before we see this policy through, we must question the feasibility of taking a Pokemon designed for a specific concept made for 4th Gen OU, adding 100 to its BST and switching one typing (not of our choice) while throwing as many Gen 5 and Gen 6 moves at it as possible and expecting it to fulfill a competitive concept in the Gen 6 Uber metagame. I see this as little more than a pipe dream. I believe flavor Mega Evolutions are enough of an optics disaster (is disaster a strong enough word?) that have been maligned enough on IRC that I don't need to respond to them. Competitive Mega Evolutions designed for the Gen 6 Uber metagame seem impossible to pull off. If we want to make a Mega Evolution for the Gen 6 Uber Metagame, we need to start from scratch. Not only will it be a much better process, we'll have a much better shot at a good final product.
One concession from my first post in this thread I would like to make is that Mega Evolution discussion should not be made an automatic part of the process. I am no longer in favor of a "Mega Evolution Discussion" that would appear in every CAP. Mega Evolution should be addressed in the
Concept Submission stage and no later. This allows us to start planning for a Mega Evolution as early as Concept Assessment, nip all fanboy cries of "we need a Mega" in the bud, and it would still set the burden to TL Approval+Community Vote (in that for a Mega Evolution to be chosen the TL would have to slate the concept and the community would have to vote that concept the winner). It should be made explicitly clear whether or not a Concept will have a Mega Evolution attached to it. The TL could disallow Mega Evolution from the get-go or slate only a few Mega Evolutions, etc. Regardless, the TL would be able to decide the amount of influence Mega Evolution has on the project and let the community make the final decision through the Concept Polls. Regardless, if Mega Evolution is allowed for Gen 6 CAPs, then the "is this CAP going to have a Mega Evolution" question needs to be answered as early in the process as possible.
I would like to make my position on Mega Evolution for the CAP process as clear as possible. Mega Evolution should be allowed for Gen 6 CAP Pokemon. Mega Evolution should be addressed in the Concept Submission step of the process: no later, no earlier. The TL should have the right to outright disallow Mega Evolution by leaving it off of the Concept slate. Mega Evolution should be disallowed for all Gen 4 and 5 CAP Pokemon. Gen 4 and Gen 5 CAPs should not be updated for future generations and should be recognized as relics of the metagames they were created for. Mega Evolving an already finished Gen 6 Pokemon later in the generation (i.e., creating a Mega Evolution for Gen 6 CAP 1 after Gen 6 CAP 3 is finished) is less objectionable (but still pretty objectionable) as long as that policy is created here and now.
jas61292 said:
This issue here is that you are flat out ignoring the biggest argument against mega's and basically saying "the problems aren't THAT bad. So, why not do it?" Honestly, the problems with time, logistics and complexity, while enough to probably say no on them alone, are not really the big issue. The issue is that we would be creating these problems by significantly altering our established and very well made process without a good reason. We didn't rewrite our process so that multitype or any other forme changing ability could be done, even if they could be great projects in theory, because of all the things we could do, they are only a tiny, tiny fraction, and to alter the entire project to give us the opportunity to do them (again, ignoring all the other problems) would be foolish. It is the exact same thing with mega evolution.
Are you seriously comparing Multitype or forme-changing Abilities to Mega Evolution? Multitype wasn't on 70% of OU teams last generation. Forme-changing Abilities were an afterthought attached to a couple of non-viable Pokemon. Multitype and forme-changing Abilities were a tiny, tiny fraction of all the things we could do. Mega Evolution is a very significant fraction of what we can do. Mega Evolution is
the defining metagame upgrade of the generation. It is found on nearly 3/4 of all OU teams, and that percentage only goes up as the quality of play does. If Multitype and Zen Mode were on 24 different Pokemon, many of which OU-viable, we would have had a PR about it and likely accommodated it into the process. If 70% of teams had one of the 24 different Pokemon with Multitype, we would have done something about it. Comparing Mega Evolution to Multitype and Zen Mode is a blatant false comparison.
Mega Evolution, logistically, is not nearly as difficult to implement as some people are making it out to be. If the time factor is a big a problem as it's being made out to be, then let's revisit this issue after the Time Factor, Polling Options, and Review TLT System Policy Reviews are finished. During this PR cycle, we
will be looking for ways to shorten the process and we
will be looking for ways the leadership structure can cut out the delays. The Polling Options PR thread will likely discuss making polling more expedient. Deck Knight summed up the additions we would have to make to the process in order to fit in Mega Evolution.
Deck Knight said:
CAP X - Mega Evolution Type Discussion / Poll
CAP X - Mega Evolution Ability Discussion / Poll
CAP X - Mega Evolution Stats Discussion / Poll
CAP X - Mega Evolution Art / Sprite Discussion / Poll
...
we're still looking at 10 polls here, OR trying to run concurrent Type / Ability / Stat / Art / Sprite threads.
If Mega Evolutions were retrofitted into the process in a competitive manner, I assume the process would go something like: Typing Discussion+Poll->Mega Typing+Poll->Primary Ability Discussion+Poll->Stats+Poll->Mega Stats+Poll->Secondary Ability+Poll->Mega Ability+Poll->Art Poll->Movepool+Poll->Final Product. That sounds daunting at first, but it's not nearly as bad as it seems. A Mega Evolution Typing Discussion asks one question: whether or not the base form's secondary typing should change. Since we're only changing one typing (which we wouldn't get to choose once the main CAP's typing has been set), that means one short discussion and 1-2 polls. I bet the Polling Options PR will make that a definite 1-poll step, but I'll save the speculation. Regardless, Typing shouldn't add more than four days to the process. Mega Evolution Ability Discussion should be no longer. It's one Ability, and this step should occur after Stats and Secondary Ability have been decided. Four days, possibly five at the most. Stats might take a little longer, but with the prescribed BST change of 100 we're already locked into plenty. Stats might take up to a week, likely less.
Art and Sprites may be a little more challenging, but there's plenty of ways to go about this. We could combine base form and Mega Art and Sprites, thus adding zero days to the process. However, we could also handle base form Art normally,
open the Mega Evolution Art Thread immediately after, and allow artists to submit Mega Evolution Art during the Attacking Moves Discussion, Attacking Moves Poll, Non-Attacking Moves Discussion, Non-Attacking Moves Poll, Movepool Submissions, Movepool Poll, and base form Sprite Submissions. That sounds like more than enough time for artists to create a Mega Evolution, but if it's not then we can just combine the two. I have no experience with CAP Art, so I implore artists to mull over this idea if Mega Evolutions are allowed for the CAP. My inclination is to believe that more art contests = more art winners = more happiness, but please feel free to disagree with me on this. If this art idea adds too much time to the process, feel free to dismiss it.
Speaking of adding time to the process, the "Mega Evolution takes too long" argument falls apart with a little analysis. Ignoring the fact that we have
three different Policy Reviews coming up this cycle that have the potential to shorten the process, who says adding time to the CAP process is always a bad thing? Cawmodore has skewed our vision of CAP taking too long. There are a million different reasons why Cawmodore took 112 days to finish ranging from forum crashes to time zone issues to too many polls to somewhat absent leadership et cetera. There were dozens of "under the hood" issues that made Cawmodore take longer than it should. However, the problem with Cawmodore wasn't that it took 112 days, the problem with Cawmodore was that
many of those 112 days contributed nothing to the process. If the day-long delays between OPs were replaced with days of intelligent, constructive discussion, then Cawmodore taking 112 days would not be a issue (at least not a major one). The problem with Cawmodore was that we'd finish a poll, wait a day for a moderator to open the next discussion, wait a day for the TLT to open the discussion, have a discussion that took too long to conclude, wait a day for the TLT to post a slate, wait a day for the TL to judge the slate, then wait a day for a mod to open a poll. The previous sentence may be an exaggeration, but it accurately captures the time delays with Cawmodore. Adding more steps to the process does not diminish the quality of the process or the product as long as those steps contribute quality competitive discussion or polling. Mega Evolution allows us to discuss competitively relevant concepts in a way we never have before. If it takes a little longer, so be it as long as the discussion is worth having. With all of the changes to the CAP process coming up this PR cycle intended to save time, CAPs taking too long will become the least of our worries.
Addressing the state of this PR thread:
Birkal said:
I feel that the answer to the first question has been a resounding 'no' throughout this thread (except from nyttyn). Butchering the CAP Process to introduce Mega Evolutions is not worth our time or effort, and the amount of information to be gained from it is dubious at best. The second question listed above, from my perspective, has been projected to be a 'yes' by the posters of this thread. There is no denying how central the Mega Evolution process is to this generation of competitive Pokemon. That dogma leads into the third question, which I believe has been answered with a 'yes, competitive' by the PRC. Although we don't know what sort of process will guide making Mega Evolutions for previous CAPs, there is an agreement not only that we should have them, but that they should be created for competitive use.
If it isn't obvious at this point, Team Gen 6 MEvos has doubled. I don't think we have the near-unanimous consent that Birkal's bookkeeping post implies we do, and if nyttyn's and my side continue to grow in number then I would prefer to see this issue go to a vote. nyttyn and I are definitely on the same side concerning concurrent Mega Evolutions for future CAPs. The two of us, Nyktos, and (IIRC) srk1214 do not agree with "yes, competitive" for updating current CAPs with Mega Evolutions. Hopefully this post and the posts preceding (succeeding?) this post sway some opinions. Regardless, Birkal's three questions seem controversial enough that a vote is necessary.
I don't want to fall into the trap jas61292 has mentioned of "being anti-anti-MEvo". The reasons why we should accommodate Mega Evolution for Gen 6 OU CAPs is as simple as "they're the most significant upgrade to Gen 6 Pokemon." If nearly three out of every four OU teams (and four out of four good OU teams) employ a certain type of Pokemon, it's ridiculous to disallow it in the CAP project just because it's hard to implement.
I believe people that want to disallow Gen 6 MEvos but permit revisions to previous CAPs fall into one of two camps: those that just want to disallow MEvos without looking like extremists and those that believe Mega Evolution can solve too many problems at once. Because Breaking Bad deserves a mention in just about every thread in this forum, revising CAPs is a "half measure". No half measures.
If you're looking for a tl;dr version of my post, go read nyttyn's and Nyktos' posts. They sum up my ideas pretty well.
*Mega Evolution adds 100 to the BST. Mega Alakazam only gets 90 points because regular Alakazam gains 10 points in its Special Defense when transitioning from Gen 5 to Gen 6. That counts towards the 100 as far as Game Freak is concerned, and, therefore, as far as we should be concerned.