Mamoswine (QC 0/3)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Overview
########
-Very Underrated Wall Breaker
-May not seem like much if look at stat, most stats are mediocre, only notable base 130 Atk and even that doesn't seem that incredible when compare 150 Atk Uber like Rayquazza and Zekrom
-Frail by Uber Standard and 80 base Spd is slow, and thus often struggle to launch an attack other than Priority Ice Shard against Hyper offensive team.
-However, the wonderful offensive typing and its two STAB, Earthquake and Icicle Crash, really set it apart.
-STAB alone already hit lots of common Stall monsters such as Groudon, Aegislash, Lugia, Giratina, Dialga, and Rockceus super effectively. While things like Kyogre and Ho-Oh doesn't enjoy taking one of its STAB either because they aren't that bulky Physically
-Priority in Ice Shard is also great, picking off faster and weakened monster like Mewtwo and Darkari and revenging Ice weak monsters like Shaymin-S, Landorus-T, and Garchomp. Also allow you to anti-lead Deoxys-S.
-Defensively, Electric immunity and SR neutrality is useful. Thick Fat gives it neutrality to Fire and ice resistance. One of the few monster resists the Bolt-beam combo and allow it to counter the dangerous Electric Arceus
-Doesn't change too much compare to Gen 5, Xerneas is a new threat but can take advantage of the new Yveltal and Aegislash



Wall Breaker
########
name: Wall Breaker
move 1: Icicle Crash
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Ice Shard
move 4: Substitute/ Superpower/ Stealth Rock
item: Life Orb
ability: Thick Fat
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP

Moves
=========
- STAB Icicle Crash hit many Ice weak pokemon in Uber for shattering damages, notably Groudon, Yveltal, Lugia, Giratina(-O), and others. It is a safer move to throw around in general since many things in Uber are at least neutral if not weak to it. Plus the Flinch rate can be useful at times.
- STAB in Earthquake combo well with Icicle Crash, denting or outright KO things that can take Icicle Crash such as Kyogre, grounded steel type (Scizor, Aegislash, Jirachi, Heatran, Dialga, Genesect, etc), Rock-Arceus, Xerneas, etc. It is even stronger than Icicle Crash.
- Ice Shard allow you to revenge Ice weak targets such as Shaymin-S and pick up faster pokemon that are weakened.
- The fourth move is very expandable since the first three moves already give you everything you need. Superpower is slashed first because it is the best attack for Bronzong, one of your best counter. It also hits Blis/Chansey, Ferrothorn, Extreme-killer before it set up, and Kyerum-W. Stealth Rock is another good move to use if you can't fit it anywhere else in your team. Do note that Mamoswine isn't a very reliable SR monster itself due to its fragility and slow speed.
-Not listed, but Substitute can be used to erase prediction, note that with life Orb, Mamo will lose a great amount of health. Knock Off is another useful move to remove opponent items. Stone edge can also be used to OHKO Physical defensive Ho-Oh but has little use otherwise.

Set Details
=========
-Atk is maximized with Adamant nature to provide maximum power. Jolly nature allows Mamo to outspeed Max speed netural nature 90s but mix out a great deal of power and KO, so it is not recommended. Speed is also maximized to help outspeed most 90 Speed Uber that doesn't invest much in Speed.
- If you wish to conserve EVs, 84 EVs in speed can be used as it still outspeed min 90s that doesn't invest, and you can put the rest in Hp or defense. It is not recommended as your opponent will likely speed creep and even if you successfully speed creep against him, you may end up putting a lot of EVs in Speed and not gaining much bulk anyway.
-Life Orb is the only viable item due to its ability to switch moves and provide consistent power boost

Usage Tips
=========
-Prediction is very important to use Mamo properly, as very few things can switch into it if you have good prediction. For example, Kyogre and Steel type hate Earthquake, Ho-oh, Lugia, Yveltal hate Icicle Crash
-It is difficult to switch Mamo into attacks as it is not bulky at all, so if you predict opponent to use a support move, you can bring it in and wreck havoc.
-When against Hyper Offensive team, Mamo may struggle to launch an Earthquake or Icicle Crash, but priority Ice Shard is still there to pick up frail and weakened monsters
-Choice locked electric attack from the like of Kyogre and Zekrom are also good to take advantage of
-Hate all status, especially burn

Team Options
=========
-Kyogre is a great partner to attract electric attack for Mamo switching into. In return, Kyogre can switch into water and steel moves that Mamo is weak to and destroy Mamo top counters such as Skarmory, Bronzong, and Wall Arceus
-Dialga is another good teammate as it can set up SR more reliably, resisting Water and Steel moves, and roost both Skarmory and Bronzong with Fire Blast.
-Palkia is similar to Dialga minus SR, but it can also switch in against Kyogre more easily
-Zekrom is again resist water and steel, destroy Skarmory and Bronzong, and Mamoswine can lure Groudon in and maul it badly with Icicle Crash, helping Zekrom to Spam Bolt Strike more easily

Other Options
=========
-Icicle Spear is a possible replacement for Icicle Crash, but it is unreliable
-Choice Band and Endeavor lead sucks
-Toxic is an option to cripple wall, most notably support Arceus form that you can't handle

Checks & Counters
########
-It is more difficult to counter Mamo than it may first seem. Mamoswine STAB has excellent coverage and is very powerful. Fortunately, checking it is not difficult as it is slow and frail.
-Bronzong and Skarmory are the best counter. They can switch into anything Mamo throw at it and threaten it back with Gyro Ball and Toxic Stall. Bronzong need to be aware of repeating Superpower though.
-Bulky support Arceus form not weak to its STAB, such as Normal, Water, Ghost, Fairy and Fighting Arceus, can take a hit and cripple Mamoswine with Wil-O-Wisp or outright KO back with a super effective Judgement.
-Bulky Extreme Killer survive a Superpower and can set up Sword Dance
-Gyarados is immune to Earthquake and can take an Icicle Crash thanks to Intimidate, and hit back with Waterfall. It must watch out for the rare freeze dry and stone edge though
-Xerneas and Kyerum-W can generally take an Earthquake or Icicle Crash plus an Ice Shard, and KO back with a powerful Moonblast or Draco Meteor. They lack reliable recovery though and can be wear down.
-If SR is not up, Physical defensive Ho-oh can survive 2 Icicle Crash and KO back with Sacred Fire. It still has to watch out for the rare Stone Edge though.
-After that, it all comes down to prediction on swithching and revenging. For example, if avoiding Earthquake, Kyogre, Steel Arceus, Reshiram, and faster steel type such as Genesect, Scizor, and Offensive Dialga, can force Mamoswine out with attacks. If avoiding Icicle Crash, faster Groudon with a fire move, Ho-Oh, and Thundurus with Grass Knot can KO back and Lugia can set up reflect and proceed to Stall Mamo out. Anything else faster without a weakness to Ice Shard such as Palkia, Mewtwo, Blaziken, and Terrakion are great revenge killer.

Choice Band Replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-85149635

Why Not:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-85163702
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-85170186
The above two are self-explanatory
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-85172474
Just want to show turn 2 where if I can switch my move from EQ to IC it will be better.

Life Orb Sub:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91258392

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91267566
I lose this one, but I made mistake where if I send out Palkia on turn 14 and trade it with Gengar instead of Yveltal I would have won. Regardless, Mamo did a great job, especially consdier my opponent is hyper offense, which proves Mamo can work even against those teams.
 
Last edited:

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Mention physically defensive Ho-oh in the counters as well. Mamoswine can't 2HKO physically defensive Ho-oh with Icicle Crash (it can flinch, I guess) and Sacred Fire burns are not unlikely. I guess you could run Stone Edge for it.

Mention Gyarados in counters because it's the best =P
 
Last edited:
err... Other QC members tell me should Gyarados be added or not?

Edit: Physical Defensive Ho-oh added, thanks Shrang
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Also don't mention fight or normal as supportceus forms because.. they're shit. At least, this gen, they deserve little use as supporters.
 
Piexplode is incorrect on Arceus-Fighting, it isn't great but it's still very viable and absolutely worth a mention as a hard check. Also mention Extremekiller in the checks & counters section, since it easily beats Mamoswine 1-1. Also, please take the following line out: "Switching into Toxic may be a good idea for it since it prevent Mamo to get crippled by burn." No it is not, it significantly decreases Mamoswine's survivability and makes it more prone to get picked off by moves such as EKiller's ExtremeSpeed and random Earthquakes. Mamoswine hates both WoW and Toxic.

Mention that this is one of the best Electric Arceus checks in the entire game thanks to its typing and ability. Electric Arceus is not easy to check and Mamo does a great job of it. Talk briefly about how Mamoswine will struggle with faster teams, particularly Deoxys-S Hyper Offense with mons like Darkrai/Mewtwo/EKiller/Scarfers. Sometimes the best Mamoswine can do is pick off weakened sweepers with Ice Shard while discouraging set-up with its powerful STAB moves. It prefers going up against balance teams where it can often outrun the opponent while still doing good damage.
 
Imo Mamo also has a nice niche vs Deoxys-S Hyper Offense due to the anti-lead role you can give it to limit entry hazards+pick off things with entry hazards (these teams are generally frail so maybe you should be able to pick off very weakened offensive Groudon etc.). Also as you say, it's very hard to set up on Mamo. It is probably good vs balance, but I wouldn't say it's that bad against HO either.
 
Piexplode is incorrect on Arceus-Fighting, it isn't great but it's still very viable and absolutely worth a mention as a hard check. Also mention Extremekiller in the checks & counters section, since it easily beats Mamoswine 1-1. Also, please take the following line out: "Switching into Toxic may be a good idea for it since it prevent Mamo to get crippled by burn." No it is not, it significantly decreases Mamoswine's survivability and makes it more prone to get picked off by moves such as EKiller's ExtremeSpeed and random Earthquakes. Mamoswine hates both WoW and Toxic.

Mention that this is one of the best Electric Arceus checks in the entire game thanks to its typing and ability. Electric Arceus is not easy to check and Mamo does a great job of it. Talk briefly about how Mamoswine will struggle with faster teams, particularly Deoxys-S Hyper Offense with mons like Darkrai/Mewtwo/EKiller/Scarfers. Sometimes the best Mamoswine can do is pick off weakened sweepers with Ice Shard while discouraging set-up with its powerful STAB moves. It prefers going up against balance teams where it can often outrun the opponent while still doing good damage.
Done all of the above, but to address Hack point also, I put "When against Hyper Offensive team, Mamo may struggle to launch an Earthquake or Icicle Crash, but priority Ice Shard is still there to pick up frail and weakened monsters". Is this good enough?
 
Bumping for QC approval. I have done what was asked for more than a week ago. Or is there something I am still missing?
 
Emphasize how shit this mon is. With the rise of support Arc, Bronzong, Phys Def Ho-oh and new threats like MMX and the decline of Giratina-O, Rayquaza, Shaymin-S, Chomper etc makes Mamoswine's niche is very tiny. It can check Electric Arceus pretty well, but it's a lame ass SR setter because of how burn prone it is in combination with low speed and bulk.

You hardly take advantage of Yveltal, it just OHKOs you before you get the chance to move (unless you Ice Shard), the only thing you can do to "take advantage" of it is to predict its switch in and icicle crash, so remove that mention I guess. Lugia being more common looks fine in theory but all that will happen in practice is that if you don't get your rocks up it will just Roost-loop you and LO takes you down. It's inability to easily get into play makes it much easier to deal with in practice actually- every neutral hit from an offense mon in the tier will at least 2hko.

Onto the set- Jolly nature slash. The rest looks pretty fine, not much more I'd like to add, just be very distinct in how niche and oftentimes bad this is.

QC approved 1/3
 
Um, is Choice Band really that bad? I understand switching moves is nice but Mamoswine doesn't really seem to have the speed to be able to take advantage of that luxury. It's mostly a hit and run mon and if you don't catch the right guy on the switch-in you are probably going to be forced out regardless. Only real drawback I see to it is not anti leading Deo S anymore but that can be fixed with U-turn teammate. I'm just not completely sold on this mon because its speed tier is ass and it really wants to go for jolly to try and do ground mon things like force out Dialga. It can't really go for jolly though because then it loses the pressure on bulky arceus to recover. CB fixes that though because of the extra punch.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I don't really know about this Pokemon either. It checks Arceus-Electric really well and can anti-lead Deo-S but doesn't accomplish much outside of that. It beats the more traditional physical walls (Lugia, Gira, Groudon) but loses to Zong and support Arc which are a lot more common nowadays. Ice Shard is cool but not much this metagame fears Ice-type priority and those that do can outpriority Mamoswine (Rayquaza, Yveltal). Aside from BoltBeam resistance its typing isn't that great defensively at all which limits its switch-in ability. And yeah, base 80 Speed sucks. I'm leaning towards reject but do try a CB set as MM2 suggested.
 
Um, is Choice Band really that bad? I understand switching moves is nice but Mamoswine doesn't really seem to have the speed to be able to take advantage of that luxury. It's mostly a hit and run mon and if you don't catch the right guy on the switch-in you are probably going to be forced out regardless. Only real drawback I see to it is not anti leading Deo S anymore but that can be fixed with U-turn teammate. I'm just not completely sold on this mon because its speed tier is ass and it really wants to go for jolly to try and do ground mon things like force out Dialga. It can't really go for jolly though because then it loses the pressure on bulky arceus to recover. CB fixes that though because of the extra punch.
I don't really know about this Pokemon either. It checks Arceus-Electric really well and can anti-lead Deo-S but doesn't accomplish much outside of that. It beats the more traditional physical walls (Lugia, Gira, Groudon) but loses to Zong and support Arc which are a lot more common nowadays. Ice Shard is cool but not much this metagame fears Ice-type priority and those that do can outpriority Mamoswine (Rayquaza, Yveltal). Aside from BoltBeam resistance its typing isn't that great defensively at all which limits its switch-in ability. And yeah, base 80 Speed sucks. I'm leaning towards reject but do try a CB set as MM2 suggested.

Well, I guess we can hold on to this longer to give you and other QCs more time testing Mamo. I don't mind this being rejected eventually. Just want to say that while Zong and support Arc are more common, things like Choice Zekrom, Electriceus, and Aegislash are also more common monsters to take advantage of. I will try Choice Band although I am really not sure about it.

Emphasize how shit this mon is. With the rise of support Arc, Bronzong, Phys Def Ho-oh and new threats like MMX and the decline of Giratina-O, Rayquaza, Shaymin-S, Chomper etc makes Mamoswine's niche is very tiny. It can check Electric Arceus pretty well, but it's a lame ass SR setter because of how burn prone it is in combination with low speed and bulk.

You hardly take advantage of Yveltal, it just OHKOs you before you get the chance to move (unless you Ice Shard), the only thing you can do to "take advantage" of it is to predict its switch in and icicle crash, so remove that mention I guess. Lugia being more common looks fine in theory but all that will happen in practice is that if you don't get your rocks up it will just Roost-loop you and LO takes you down. It's inability to easily get into play makes it much easier to deal with in practice actually- every neutral hit from an offense mon in the tier will at least 2hko.

Onto the set- Jolly nature slash. The rest looks pretty fine, not much more I'd like to add, just be very distinct in how niche and oftentimes bad this is.

QC approved 1/3
Thanks, will add what you said at a later time
 
I just checked Freeze Dry in a damage calculator & it doesn't OHKO Palkia.

0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 255-302 (79.1 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(255, 255, 255, 265, 265, 270, 270, 270, 281, 281, 286, 286, 286, 296, 296, 302)
 
I just checked Freeze Dry in a damage calculator & it doesn't OHKO Palkia.

0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 255-302 (79.1 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(255, 255, 255, 265, 265, 270, 270, 270, 281, 281, 286, 286, 286, 296, 296, 302)
Thanks for the mention. I just removed Freeze Dry entirely.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I just checked Freeze Dry in a damage calculator & it doesn't OHKO Palkia.
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 255-302 (79.1 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can't you follow up with Ice Shard if Palkia switches into that
 
Can't you follow up with Ice Shard if Palkia switches into that
The thing is Earthquake+Ice Shard already KO Palkia, as Freeze Dry does not have any other target bar Gyarados (this isn't OU where Rotom-W exists), it is basically useless
 

Furai

we will become who we are meant to be
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I don't know where you got the idea from that Endeavor lead sucks honestly. It has the threat of killing almost every mon that isn't Ghost-type with Endeavor + Ice Shard. EQ + Ice Shard anti-leads well too. So many bulky Arceus around make this set a pro.
 
What you do achieve with endevour is getting burned and then Defog stalled until in Judg range, at least vs any competent player with support arc.

However, it can be a decent surprise and it's not bad per se.
 

Furai

we will become who we are meant to be
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I just thought of Will-O-Wisp now. But point still stands imo; if you manage to stay away from that with smart switches, you basically kill a mon. Stealth Rock will force Arceus to come in and that's where you smash it.
 
What sucks is that it's not a durable SR setter and is defog fodder. Beyond that it's just like most other endeavor gimmick sets.
 
I have been looking for and organizing replays recently, you can read the last part of my first post. What I found recently is Sub is probably the best option in the last slot. Also, I tested choice band set a bit and did not like it. The life Orb set is probably the only viable set. Moreover, I would appreciated more QC comment on this as I pointed out in post 15.

Edit: Note that I only have 1 QC approval, I either need one more so I can write or 3 rejects.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top