Machoke (GP 2/2)

Fucking hell I'm blind as a bat. I swear to god I read this. >.<. But okay I'm happy. I just wanted it stressed, regardless.
 
merlinnerd922: Of course it will net more KOs. It is 1.5x stronger. The whole "does it get any specific KOs" idea is ridiculous in my opinion; unless you already OHKO everything, damage is damage, and Pokemon will rarely be in perfect condition anyway. Regardless, Dynamicpunch is the reason to use Machamp. If you are going to use Focus Punch use something else that is more powerful. This will go in OO or in AC of the sub set.
True, but Machoke's ability to cause switches with Dynamicpunch make it easier to set up a Sub, and thus use Focus Punch. It can even use a Focus Punch on a potential switch.
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
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OK this is a massive waste of a 1K post, but my postcount crept up on me and I can't stop posting completely while I write a thread lol.

This is written and is ready for GP checks.

@ merlinnerd: I take it you are talking about using BOTH dynamicpunch and focus punch at once, since any Machoke set without it is outclassed. I myself would rather use a move which gives some kind of coverage; stuff neutral or weak to fighting is quite well dealt with.
 
Machoke

OK this is an interesting one. If only this were streetmons.

Machoke is clearly a very strong pokemon – taking into account eviolite its defenses are great, its attack is more than passable, and it gets that wonderful STAB DynamicPunch which makes it truly unique. Unfortunately the current metagame absolutely hates Machoke – there are way too many Slowbro, Mew, Deoxys-d, Celebi, Dusclops, Zapdos, and Victini around, making it rather tricky to use Machoke effectively. At the moment I find that I generally need Toxic Spikes or considerable Pursuit support to make Machoke really damaging. However, regardless, it still serves as an impressive defensive Pokemon, giving you a fighting chance against almost anything, provided you get lucky with confusion.

QC 3/3 (PK Gaming, Chou Toshio, Oglemi)

[Overview]

<p>Though Machoke's stats are very decent for an NFE Pokemon, giving it great bulk with an Eviolite and good power, No Guard + DynamicPunch is really what sets Machoke apart. DynamicPunch hits quite hard, and is guaranteed to confuse the target, causing switches, building up residual damage, (comma) and endlessly frustrating the opponent. When you add Payback, which gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross, Machoke is certainly intimidating. However, the UU metagame is highly hostile to Machoke; there are Ghost- and Psychic-types around every corner, including hugely bulky ones like Slowbro, Celebi, and Dusclops. A metagame often centered centred on Spikes and Rapid Spin does not suit Machoke at all. Therefore, using Machoke is never going to be easy, but Machoke's decent stats and, (comma) of course, (comma) that STAB No Guard DynamicPunch allow it to be viable in UU.</p>

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Payback
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The combination of Rest and Sleep Talk allows Machoke to circumvent many of its usual problems: its lack of recovery, its vulnerability to status moves, and DynamicPunch's meager meagre 8 PP. Given that Machoke has fairly few viable moves, getting near-perfect coverage merely from DynamicPunch and Payback, two moveslotsis a small price to pay. With this, Machoke has great bulk with Eviolite, similar to that of defensive Hitmontop, great longevity, and a real offensive presence. DynamicPunch is Machoke's main move; alongside No Guard, it is one of the best in the game, causing very decent damage while guaranteeing to confuse the opponent. Undoubtedly, (comma) this will force the opponent to switch repeatedly, racking up residual damage. By hitting Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, Payback gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross; be warned though that it will not make much impression on slow, bulky Pokemon like Slowbro and Dusclops.</p>


[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are several alternative spreads that you can run for this set: most notably, you can invest more heavily into one of Machoke's defensive stats. With 252 Defense Def EVs replacing those in Attack, Machoke can counter many physical attackers, for example Life Orb Mamoswine. Equally, you can increase Machoke's special bulk, but Machoke performs more strongly against physically attackers. With Special Defense investment, however, Machoke can make excellent use of Bulk Up, becoming very tough to take down, and finding opportunities to set up through confusion from DynamicPunch. However, you will have to forgo Sleep Talk, and therefore Machoke may become a sitting duck for two turns. Nonetheless, this set is very dangerous to anyone lacking a phazer. The use of Guts on a RestTalk set, though tempting, is not recommended; Machoke is generally outclassed in this regard by the likes of Hariyama and Heracross.</p>

<p>This set has major trouble with Ghost-types, and also a number of Psychic-type opponents, such as Celebi, Mew, Deoxys-D, and especially Slowbro, which can switch in repeatedly thanks to Regenerator. Due to their immense bulk and recovery, these Pokemon can be tricky to remove. Toxic Spikes support is helpful, as it can cripple most of the bulkier Ghost- and Psychic-types, allowing Machoke to force its way through while they struggle to KO even with Psychic-type moves. Machoke can also stall out many other Pokemon in the tier. Even better, you can trap and KO many of these checks with Pursuit from the likes of , for example from Weavile, Houndoom, or Bisharp. Slowbro is very hard to trap in this way, so you may consider a lure such as mixed Victini. Additionally, you will want to support Machoke with Stealth Rock and also Spikes, if possible, as Machoke forces numerous switches with DynamicPunch, racking up entry hazard damage.</p>

[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Payback
move 4: Toxic
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is fairly similar to the RestTalk set, capitalizing on Machoke's good bulk, decent power, and of course DynamicPunch, with a slightly more offensive approach. Although it cannot effectively run Leftovers, Substitute is a very useful move for Machoke. With confusion from DynamicPunch, Machoke will find ample opportunity to set one up, and will then be protected from both attacks and status moves. Substitute is crucial in easing prediction, allowing Machoke to avoid using DynamicPunch on a Ghost- or Psychic-type, instead hitting them the following turn with Payback. This is especially important given that Payback no longer hits with full power on the switch. Everything else will be left struggling to break Machoke's Substitutes due to confusion from DynamicPunch, often causing the opponent to switch repeatedly. Given that, barring Heracross, Machoke's two attacks provide perfect neutral coverage, Toxic can be used to cripple many of Machoke's counters, with the notable exception of Celebi. Be warned, however, that many Ghost- and Psychic-types carry Taunt or Substitute; you will need to hit these directly on the switch without first using Substitute.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are a couple of alternative moves that can be used on this set over Toxic. Ice Punch allows Machoke to hit the likes of Gligar and Zapdos reasonably hard, but will by some distance fall short of a OHKO on both. Bulk Up is a good boosting move, but Machoke lacks any form of recovery, and therefore will be worn down quickly. Although it may seem tempting to use Leftovers, Machoke has to stay in for a very large number of turns with heavily reduced bulk for it to be worth it. Much more flexible is Machoke's EV spread is much more flexible; currently, it this maximizes Machoke's power and overall bulk, while ignoring its abysmal Speed. However, Machoke's Speed stat is undeniably important at times. In many situations Machoke is actually too fast, Payback hitting with a pathetic 50 Base Power against Slowbro and Dusclops. With a 0 Speed IV Machoke becomes slower than Slowbro, and when you add a Brave nature, it also becomes slower than Dusclops (assuming both have a Speed IV of 31, a Speed EV of 0, and a neutral nature). With them hitting first however, this is of questionable usefulness (worded really weirdly, maybe like "However, this also means that they will be attacking Machoke first, which can be fatal at times."). Alternatively, you may wish for Machoke to set up a Substitute before being hit by a status attack from a wall such as Chansey, which Machoke requires 44 Speed EVs to outrun. However, you are of course detracting from Machoke's bulk or power, and reducing the power of Payback against certain Pokemon.</p>

<p>As with every Machoke set, this has trouble with Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, due to their resistance or immunity to DynamicPunch. In order to remove them, a Pursuit user is recommended; Weavile and Houndoom are good examples. Additionally, Machoke may require Wish support, as it lacks a way of recovering the health lost through using Substitute. Finally, look to support Machoke with Spikes and Stealth Rock, as this helps capitalize on the switches forced by confusion.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Machoke has very few options that have not been mentioned. Machoke's Machokes second ability, Guts, is decent, letting it use Bulk Up or RestTalk to very good effect. Unfortunately, Machoke is outclassed in every role it attempts to play with Guts; Gurdurr does Bulk Up better with superior stats and access to Drain Punch and Mach Punch, and Hariyama and Heracross do RestTalk better. ThunderPunch is a decent option, hitting various Water- and Flying-type opponents reasonably hard, but is usually inferior to Payback or Ice Punch. Machoke has a priority move in Bullet Punch, but without STAB this is too weak to be of use. Machoke also has a host of other Fighting-type moves, for example, Focus Punch, Revenge, and Close Combat. Though at times these may outdamage DynamicPunch, none of these focuses on Machoke's niche, No Guard, and is as such better used by another Pokemon. Finally, Magic Coat provides Machoke a method of dealing with status moves (and a whole host of other non-attacking moves), but this is already dealt with by Substitute or Rest in the above sets. This may be a good filler move for a Bulk Up set, though.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Due to their immunity to DynamicPunch, Ghost-types are obviously highly useful in dealing with Machoke. Dusclops, Dusknoir, and Spiritomb are probably the best, though none is especially common. Psychic- and Flying-types are also helpful in this regard, the best examples being Slowbro, Celebi, Deoxys-D, Mew, Gligar, and Zapdos. Machoke also hates status moves such as Toxic and Will-O-Wisp if not running Rest.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Machoke's Dream World ability, Steadfast, is terrible. No Guard is the only real reason to use Machoke, and even Guts is hugely better.</p>
Ah!
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Made virtually all of those changes. Thanks Iconic.

If I could, I'd stamp it. (hint, hint)
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
I actually have no idea. I really can't find an accurate list of what gets the move. Anyway I've removed it for now.
 

Theorymon

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I'm not 100% sure about this. Long story short, when HGSS came out, we actually mixed up the movepools of Magic Coat and Role Play, aka Pokemon we thought learned Magic Coat actually learned Role Play, and Pokemon we thought learned Role Play learned Magic Coat. In this case, Serebii was actually right... untill they ALSO possibly screwed up by combined the learnpools of Magic Coat and Role Play, thinking that they were wrong before. Its a pretty confusing situation because shoddy actually used Smogon's mixed up list, and I think PO did too. I think we shouldn't put Magic Coat or Role Play into any other options until we sort out this odd situation. This obviously doesn't apply to Pokemon that learn both Magic Coat and Role Play, but sadly Machoke isn't in that group.

Because Magic Coat has become a pretty nice move this gen, I'll make it a priority that the learnpools for this are sorted out once and for all soon!
 

JockeMS

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That explains a lot. Machoke doesn't look like a Pokémon that should be able to learn Magic Coat.
 

az

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gping, will edit in

additions
deletions


Machoke

OK, this is an interesting one. If only this were streetmons.

Machoke is clearly a very strong pokemon – taking into account eviolite its defenses are great, its attack is more than passable, and it gets that wonderful STAB DynamicPunch which makes it truly unique. Unfortunately the current metagame absolutely hates Machoke – there are way too many Slowbro, Mew, Deoxys-d, Celebi, Dusclops, Zapdos, and Victini around, making it rather tricky to use Machoke effectively. At the moment I find that I generally need Toxic Spikes or considerable Pursuit support to make Machoke really damaging. However, regardless, it still serves as an impressive defensive Pokemon, giving you a fighting chance against almost anything, provided you get lucky with confusion.

QC 3/3 (PK Gaming, Chou Toshio, Oglemi)

GP 1/2 (Iconic, stamped by ElDino)

[Overview]

<p>Though Machoke's stats are very decent for an NFE Pokemon, giving it great bulk with an Eviolite and good power, No Guard + DynamicPunch is really what sets Machoke apart. DynamicPunch hits quite hard, and is guaranteed to confuse the target,. This causescausing switches, buildings up residual damage, and endlessly frustratinges the opponent. When you add Payback, which gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross, Machoke is certainly intimidating. However, the UU metagame is highly hostile to Machoke; there are Ghost- and Psychic-types around every corner, including hugely bulky ones like Slowbro, Celebi, and Dusclops. A and a metagame often centered on Spikes and Rapid Spin does not suit Machoke at all. Therefore, using Machoke is never going to be easy, but Machoke's decent stats and, of course, that STAB No Guard DynamicPunch allow it to be viable in UU.</p>

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Payback
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The combination of Rest and Sleep Talk allows Machoke to circumvent many of its usual problems: its lack of recovery, its vulnerability to status moves, and DynamicPunch's meager 8 PP. Given that Machoke has fairly few viable moves, getting near-perfect coverage merely from DynamicPunch and Payback, two moveslots is a small price to pay. With Rest and Sleep Talk giving it excellent longevity, Machoke can make full use of Eviolite, giving it bulk similar to that of defensive Hitmontop, but can providewith a real offensive presence. DynamicPunch is Machoke's main move; alongside No Guard, it is one of the best in the game, causing very decent damage while guaranteeing to confuse the opponent. Undoubtedly, tThis will force the opponent to switch repeatedly, racking up residual damage. By hitting Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, Payback gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross; be warned though that it will not make much impression on slow, bulky Pokemon like Slowbro and Dusclops.</p>


[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are several alternative spreads that you can run for this set: most notably, you can invest more heavily into one of Machoke's defensive stats. With 252 Defense EVs replacing those in Attack, Machoke can counter many physical attackers, for example Life Orb Mamoswine. Equally, you can increase Machoke's special bulk, but Machoke performs more strongly against physically attackers. With Special Defense investment, however, Machoke can make excellent use of Bulk Up, becoming very tough to take down, and finding opportunities to set up through confusion from DynamicPunch. However, you will have to forgo Sleep Talk, and therefore Machoke may become a sitting duck for two turns. Nonetheless, this set is very dangerous to anyone lacking a phazer. The use of Guts on a RestTalk set, though tempting, is not recommended; Machoke is generally outclassed in this regard by the likes of Hariyama and Heracross.</p>

<p>This set has major trouble with Ghost-types, and also a number of Psychic-type opponents, such as Celebi, Mew, Deoxys-D, and especially Slowbro, which can switch in repeatedly thanks to Regenerator. Due to their immense bulk and recovery, these Pokemon can be tricky to remove. Toxic Spikes support is helpful, as it can cripple most of the bulkier Ghost- and Psychic-types, allowing Machoke to force its way through while they struggle to KO even with Psychic-type moves. Machoke can also stall out many other Pokemon in the tier. Even better, you can trap and KO many of these checks with Pursuit from the likes of Weavile, Houndoom, and Bisharp. Slowbro is very hard to trap in this way, so you may consider a lure such as mixed Victini. Additionally, you will want to support Machoke with Stealth Rock and also Spikes, if possible, as Machoke forces numerous switches with DynamicPunch, racking up entry hazard damage.</p>

[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Payback
move 4: Toxic
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def



[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is fairly similar to the RestTalk set, capitalizing on Machoke's good bulk, decent power, and of course DynamicPunch, but with a slightly more offensive approach. Although it cannot effectively run Leftovers, Substitute is a very useful move for Machoke. With confusion from DynamicPunch, Machoke will find ample opportunity to set one up, and will then be protected from both attacks and status moves. Substitute is crucial in easing prediction, allowing Machoke to avoid using DynamicPunch on a Ghost- or Psychic-type, instead hitting them the following turn with Payback. This is especially important given that Payback no longer hits with full power on the switch. Everything else will be left struggling to break Machoke's Substitutes due to confusion from DynamicPunch, often causing the opponent to switch repeatedly. Given that, barring Heracross, Machoke's two attacks provide perfect neutral coverage, Toxic can be used to cripple many of Machoke's counters, with the notable exception of Celebi. Be warned, however, that many Ghost- and Psychic-types carry Taunt or Substitute; you will need to hit these directly on the switch without first using Substitute.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are a couple of alternative moves that can be used on this set over Toxic. Ice Punch allows Machoke to hit the likes of Gligar and Zapdos reasonably hard, but will by some distance fall short of a OHKO on both. Bulk Up is a good boosting move, but Machoke lacks any form of recovery, and therefore will be worn down quickly. Although it may seem tempting to use Leftovers, Machoke has to stay in for a very large number of turns with heavily reduced bulk for it to be worth it. Machoke's EV spread is much more flexible; currently, it maximizes Machoke's power and overall bulk, while ignoring its abysmal Speed. However, Machoke's Speed stat is undeniably important at times. In many situations Machoke is actually too fast, causing Payback hitting to hit with a pathetic 50 Base Power against Slowbro and Dusclops. With a 0 Speed IV Machoke becomes slower than Slowbro, and when you add a Brave nature, it also becomes slower than Dusclops (assuming both have a Speed IV of 31, a Speed EV of 0, and a neutral nature). However, this also means that they will be attacking Machoke first, which can be fatal at times. Alternatively, you may wish for Machoke to set up a Substitute before being hit by a status attack from a wall such as Chansey, which Machoke requires 44 Speed EVs to outrun. However, you are of course detracting from Machoke's bulk or power, and reducing the power of Payback against certain Pokemon.</p>

<p>As with every Machoke set, this has trouble with Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, due to their resistance or immunity to DynamicPunch. In order to remove them, a Pursuit user is recommended; Weavile and Houndoom are good examples. Additionally, Machoke may require Wish support, as it lacks a way of recovering the health lost through using Substitute. Finally, look to support Machoke with Spikes and Stealth Rock, as this helps capitalize on the switches forced by confusion.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Machoke has very few options that have not been mentioned. Machoke's second ability, Guts, is decent, letting it use Bulk Up or RestTalk to very good effect. Unfortunately, Machoke is outclassed in every role it attempts to play with Guts; Gurdurr does Bulk Up better with superior stats and access to Drain Punch and Mach Punch, and Hariyama and Heracross do RestTalk better. ThunderPunch is a decent option, hitting various Water- and Flying-type opponents reasonably hard, but is usually inferior to Payback or Ice Punch. Machoke has a priority move in Bullet Punch, but without STAB this is too weak to be of use. Machoke also has a host of other Fighting-type moves, for example, Focus Punch, Revenge, and Close Combat. Though at times these may outdamage DynamicPunch, none of these focuses on Machoke's niche, No Guard, and is are as such better used by another Pokemon. </p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Due to their immunity to DynamicPunch, Ghost-types are obviously highly useful in dealing with Machoke. Dusclops, Dusknoir, and Spiritomb are probably the best, though none is especially common. Psychic- and Flying-types are also helpful in this regard, the best examples being Slowbro, Celebi, Deoxys-D, Mew, Gligar, and Zapdos. Machoke also hates status moves such as Toxic and Will-O-Wisp if not running Rest.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Machoke's Dream World ability, Steadfast, is terrible. No Guard is the only real reason to use Machoke, and even Guts is hugelymuch better.</p>
i kind of agonised about your overview a bit because you repeat yourself in the first set's comments, so i trimmed down the former
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Thanks az. I'm going to make all of those changes.

edit:done

The repetition is regrettable but almost every analysis turns out like that. I have to explain why to use Machoke in both the overview and the set comments.
 
Overview, last sentence:
Therefore, using Machoke is never going to be easy, but Machoke's its decent stats and, of course, that STAB No Guard DynamicPunch allow it to be viable in UU.</p>
ResTalk set comments:
Given that Although Machoke has few viable moves, getting near-perfect coverage merely from DynamicPunch and Payback, means that two moveslots is a small price to pay.
Last sentence of that section:
By hitting Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, Payback gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross; be warned, though, that it will not make much of an impression on slow, bulky Pokemon like Slowbro and Dusclops.</p>
Additional comments second paragraph:
<p>This set has major trouble with Ghost-types, and also as well as a number of Psychic-type opponents, such as Celebi, Mew, Deoxys-D, and especially Slowbro, which can switch in repeatedly thanks to Regenerator.
Substitute set Additional comments first para:
<p>There are a couple of alternative alternate moves that can be used on this set over Toxic.
Other than that, Swag's check is good.



GP Approved 2/2
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Thanks Ajax. I didn't implement all of the changes exactly as suggested, but we discussed them and came to an agreement.

This is done.
 

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