That does seem to track, the USUM entries also solely focus on the type of flower rather than the origin of the floette specifically
Kalos revisit flower lore gonna be nutty!
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
Kalos revisit flower lore gonna be nutty!
a regular floette revived by such an uncanny source of energy could AND should have become an entirely different species! in the programmed mechanics it acts as one (can't be obtained from an extant flabébé/floette, can't evolve into a florges, can't breed), and the lore doesn't change if it was simply a different mon from the jump. i really think it was a missed opportunity
changing the subject, i am replaying original pearl and the reports of DP being SLOW AS HELL ABSOLUTELY UNPLAYABLE are widely overstated because it's not really slower than ruby which i just finished... except when surfing. why do they surf at such a snail's pace omg.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Ah, my bad! You are quite right and I'd forgotten the ORAS cameo.
Though that individual Floette is likely still very much a one-off. It has a stat spread entirely different from a regular Floette, which I would think wouldn't be the case for any other Eternal Flower Floette (unless that species of flower literally grants it overwhelming power beyond its normal bounds?). Pokebeach's take was that the stat spread - being exactly 1 point lower than Florges' - represents AZ's Floette having reached the absolute limit of its potential in that form, which I think is a really cool interpretation). I think that's much more likely to be something which came as a result of it living that long.
I think it’s ambiguous enough that you could interpret it either way, although R_N mentioned Eternal Floette’s unused Dex entries from USUM, which may be worth considering here:
> “The flower it's holding can no longer be found blooming anywhere. It's also thought to contain terrifying power.”
> “Terrifying energy is concealed within its ominous flower, but Floette still swings it about innocently.”
These seem to suggest that the added power comes from the flower itself. Relatedly, one of Flabébé’s Dex entries states that the flower it holds is “likely a part of its body,” so we could suspect that there may be some mutagenic effects depending on the type of flower it bonds with. Regular Floette’s Dex entries also tend to talk about how they “draw out” the power hidden in flowers, and how more beautiful blossoms yield more power.
Of course, we do now have an example of one Pokémon that gained an alternate form with increased power simply by living for a long time: Bloodmoon Ursaluna. Granted, the power boost is only 5 points’ worth, but the phenomenon at least provides a solid point of comparison for this case. And you could argue that the “terrifying power” in the Eternal Flower is just referring to the 140 BP with 50% recoil of Light of Ruin, rather than Eternal Floette’s increased stat spread.
Ursaluna I think is also an interesting case because as a result of Peat Blocks not existing in game despite other Hisuian Forms, my only interpretation until proven otherwise is that Ursaluna as an evolution is basically extinct in the present day (heck most Hisuian forms that DO appear occur specifically in an artificial environment compared to Bloodmoon being the only appearance at all for Ursaluna). I wonder if the reverse could happen where Floette -> Florges only came about over time from like actual-Genetic-not-Pokemon-speak Evolution, hence AZ's immortal Floette not being able to evolve because it existed at a time where Floette was the farthest the line grew to.
Here's my take though on receiving Eternal Floette: It's explicitly noted that the Ultimate Weapon is the same device that was used to bring it back to life. Lots of discussion has been had about if the Device gave it its powers or simply made and already-strong Floette Immortal: for the sake of argument/simplicity I will be assuming the former (avoids questions of when "Eternal" type Floettes stopped existed and gives a solid picture of its uniqueness in the world). My theory thus is that if you were to receive an Eternal Floette, it would be the same kind but not the exact same individual as AZ's, but rather another Floette empowered by the Infinity Energy released by Lysandre's final shot and attempt to bury you during the story. AZ might tie into the event, recognizing the Floette's unique characteristics thanks to reuniting with his partner, so could provide some flavor text/exposition akin to the Diancie appearance where you receive its Mega Stone in ORAS.
This approach also allows it to be approached as a gift-with-cutscenes, or an encounter one could have (as we have locations where some were seemingly suited to several Gen 6 Mythicals).
On the point about "basically extinct" as far as Perrin speaks about it, Ursaluna "used to be more common" so I think it probably does exist elsewhere it's just kinda rare. If we had just gotten a modern Sinnoh revisit, there could be Ursaluna on about the rarity of Munchlax for all we know!
Likewise, Perrin's Hisuian Growlithe isn't denoted as anything special (even if it probably should have been in kitakami to begin with....)
Basculin-H, Qwilfish-H & Kleavor (fuckin' Kleavor...) got expanded info in their dex entries: the former exists in colder regions (considering where Basculin is found and how Ursaluna could just swim to Kitakami, presumably there's more water sources that lead from the ocean to the Timeless Woods) and doesnt sound to be especially rare and Kleavor is rarer because it evolves from rare ore in volcanic areas ... but that also means it can pretty easily exist elsewhere and is probably about as rare as other rare Pokemon.
Honestly it's a shame they just did not bother with dex entries for the other Hisuian forms because it'd be interesting to see what they say about them.
The only Hisui form/evolution that sounds like it might actually be "extinct" is Wyrdeer because
I mean Stantler's entry seems to be referencing how you need a Stanler that already knows Psyshield Bash to teach it to others in SV, and Annihilape's evo method is a thing, a thing they made Overqwil use no less. Coupled with the fact they did make SV sprites for the Peat Block and Black Augurite makes me think that they were planning to just let you evolve them, but changed their minds for no good reason at some point.
As a Stantler fan that was incredibly excited about Wyrdeer I'm still kind of disappointed it didn't show up in Kirakami. Having Basculegion there is weird but I can kind of see the logic behind it, and Overqwil apparently has some real-world base (and weirdly wasn't present on the ID dex initially) , but I don't get why Kleavor got to come back even without its evolution object. Stantler definetly needs it more than Scyther needed a split evo.
While it adds some interesting flavor I don't know if I like the idea of a non-regional evolution (or that's what I assumed) being extinct in a game about collecting monsters. In general I feel like the Timeless Woods would have been a good place to have these mons come back and it still not feel contrived. But I suppose I can always use it in LA and it isn't the kind of thing they are opposed to retcon at any time.
While it adds some interesting flavor I don't know if I like the idea of a non-regional evolution (or that's what I assumed) being extinct in a game about collecting monsters. In general I feel like the Timeless Woods would have been a good place to have these mons come back and it still not feel contrived. But I suppose I can always use it in LA and it isn't the kind of thing they are opposed to retcon at any time.
Hisuian Qwilfish doesn't use Annihilape's evolution method of using the move a certain number of times. You just have to level up with Barb Barrage currently learned.
Wow, we got an Electric/Flying regional bird in Paldea! I can't wait to add it to my team!
Early route birds in Paldea: Fletchling, Starly, Rookidee.
W H Y ?
Early route birds in Paldea: Fletchling, Starly, Rookidee.
W H Y ?
The "we need to reinsert old mons" has gotten silly honestly, even if I understand why it happened
XY had it really bad with representing new mons with the sheer number of old mons. There are more Gen 5 and 3 mons in XY than actual Gen 6 mons. And that ignores Kanto dominating, and other gens
I'm actually glad Gen 7 laid back with along with early 8even if hard Dexit was stupid, but the reinserts DLC and Gen 9 has restarted the problem. I genuinely feel a 300 Mon dex at max works better, especially for the meta. As opposed to piling on cracked DLC mons and a lotta old mons
XY had it really bad with representing new mons with the sheer number of old mons. There are more Gen 5 and 3 mons in XY than actual Gen 6 mons. And that ignores Kanto dominating, and other gens
I'm actually glad Gen 7 laid back with along with early 8
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Ugh it's nice to see someone else say this for once. Whenever I've brought this up before people always reply "but it's nice to have diversity and lots of options!" Yes, it is, but generally when I play a new Pokemon game I want to use - wait for it - new Pokemon. And when each route's new Pokemon only appears with a 10% chance it's more than a little aggravating.
i think kalos wanted to go into a "less new pokémon, we already have too many" approach that clearly did not resonate with much of the fandom at all. which, of course, prompted them to go with an even more drastic approach in dexit. free to create more new mons when the old ones don't need to be all present!
i must confess i prefer the latter - but when they make actually new mons. SV leaned a bit too heavily into the paradoxes, and the "ecologically similar" mons are just regional forms that get to have their own pokédex number, and i'd rather just see more forms and less of those. also (unpopular?) i wouldn't mind if the paradoxes just stayed dexited outside of games in paldea lol.
i must confess i prefer the latter - but when they make actually new mons. SV leaned a bit too heavily into the paradoxes, and the "ecologically similar" mons are just regional forms that get to have their own pokédex number, and i'd rather just see more forms and less of those. also (unpopular?) i wouldn't mind if the paradoxes just stayed dexited outside of games in paldea lol.
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The prominence of multipliers we were introduced to in gen 9. I'm mostly talking about ProtoDrive, but also Supreme Overlord, Tera, the Ruinous quartet, the Ogerpon masks/blackglasses, Snow defense buff, and Terapagos. I think they're the biggest culprit for the insane powercreep we've had this gen. Like, if you just take a look at some of the stats of the best gen 9 mons, they're not actually that bad: Wogerpon and CP especially only have 120 attack, which isn't even that crazy by newer gens standards: For reference, they'd deal about the same damage as physical Dragapult with Dragon Darts. But their crazy damage multipliers mean that while dragapult does this:
252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 156-186 (45.7 - 54.5%) -- approx. 47.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 205-243 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: well I wasn't done with this post but somehow I fat-finger posted it as I closed my computer? whatever, I'll still finish it
I'm frustrated with this because GameFreak hasn't adjusted its balancing level to account for this. They're still releasing stuff like Roaring Moon with stats that would've been at least managble but become stupid when gaining a automatic no-drawback 1.3x boost, or Kingambit that can blow up even the incredibly bulky Tusk with a 1.5x boost you gain literally by playing badly. I feel this is the singular biggest cause of the insane power creep, more than even Tera.
Also maybe it's just my 1100 elo showing but it feels like a really unneccessary layer of complication for learning the tier. like I'm looking at stuff like waterpon and thinking oh he'll be kinda mid surely skarm or corv checks this well but then it 2HKOS me on switch in. And chien-pao seems like worse Kingambit until it 2HKOs dozo with crunch.
252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 156-186 (45.7 - 54.5%) -- approx. 47.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 205-243 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: well I wasn't done with this post but somehow I fat-finger posted it as I closed my computer? whatever, I'll still finish it
I'm frustrated with this because GameFreak hasn't adjusted its balancing level to account for this. They're still releasing stuff like Roaring Moon with stats that would've been at least managble but become stupid when gaining a automatic no-drawback 1.3x boost, or Kingambit that can blow up even the incredibly bulky Tusk with a 1.5x boost you gain literally by playing badly. I feel this is the singular biggest cause of the insane power creep, more than even Tera.
Also maybe it's just my 1100 elo showing but it feels like a really unneccessary layer of complication for learning the tier. like I'm looking at stuff like waterpon and thinking oh he'll be kinda mid surely skarm or corv checks this well but then it 2HKOS me on switch in. And chien-pao seems like worse Kingambit until it 2HKOs dozo with crunch.
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I think it also had to do with complaints made with Black and White and how you could only get old mons after beating the main game. People were not happy about it. A lot of people wanted to use old favorites and so didn't take too kindly when they couldn't find them easily. It also doesn't help this was the last real gen where Genwunners were actually a substantial part of the fanbase and not just a bogeyman that fans use to scapegoat everything they personally don't like about the franchise, blaming that group for being to slavish to old games because they grew up with them rather than the newer games other fans like because they grew up with them.
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I suspect Kalos' limited Pokemon probably had more to do with making all the models, and probably offsetting what would normally have been design space for evolutions being given to Mega Evolutions (while also likely being a little easier as a number of Megas had an "enhanced" design space themselves)
Kalos' small dex is almost certainly due to Mega Evolutions taking up a large portion of the design space that would fill a new generation's roster of Pokemon. Megas are effectively honorary new Pokemon in their own right, only they don't occupy a dex number and are only seen in battle as an in-battle transformation, but they still occupied much of the design space. Even though they're not usable right now they still have SV party minisprites so they're still acknowledged as such too. Especially as they have different abilities, different stats, different types, and whatnot.
The only two dexes that have anywhere near the raw amount of completely new Pokemon as Gen 5 are Gen 1 and Gen 3. Gen 4 for instance has a similarly small number of new Pokemon as Gen 6 if you exclude all the cross-gen evolutions, totaling to 78, and take away the legendaries it amounts to 64.
Megas and regional forms often occupied much of the new designs in a vacuum for a lot of the newer generations. If you add them to the mix, Gen 6, Gen 7, and Gen 8 still had 100+ total new designs apiece, especially since both are still honorarily new mons in their own right, just not occupying a new dex slot. Gen 9 has a total of 120 Pokemon, but many of those are Paradoxes, convergents, and new evolutions which all occupy new Pokedex slots.
Gen 6 itself if you only count X and Y had 30 Megas, which adding to the 72 new mons adds to 102 designs, about on par with Gen 2 and Gen 4. Add in ORAS and you have 28 more Megas and two Primals, adding to 122 new designs in total. So it's not really that small of a number of new designs if you count those.
The only two dexes that have anywhere near the raw amount of completely new Pokemon as Gen 5 are Gen 1 and Gen 3. Gen 4 for instance has a similarly small number of new Pokemon as Gen 6 if you exclude all the cross-gen evolutions, totaling to 78, and take away the legendaries it amounts to 64.
Megas and regional forms often occupied much of the new designs in a vacuum for a lot of the newer generations. If you add them to the mix, Gen 6, Gen 7, and Gen 8 still had 100+ total new designs apiece, especially since both are still honorarily new mons in their own right, just not occupying a new dex slot. Gen 9 has a total of 120 Pokemon, but many of those are Paradoxes, convergents, and new evolutions which all occupy new Pokedex slots.
Gen 6 itself if you only count X and Y had 30 Megas, which adding to the 72 new mons adds to 102 designs, about on par with Gen 2 and Gen 4. Add in ORAS and you have 28 more Megas and two Primals, adding to 122 new designs in total. So it's not really that small of a number of new designs if you count those.
As someone who prefers the future paradox Pokemon over the past ones (I like robots), it's really annoying how much better most of the past paradoxes are competitively. I think the future paradox Pokemon are reasonably balanced, with Pokemon like Iron Crown and Iron Jugulis being solid Pokemon in their own right. But "reasonably balanced" means nothing next to borderline gamebreaking Pokemon. Why does Flutter Mane get to have boxart legendary stats + a perfect STAB combo + setup? Makes it really hard to justify using Iron Valiant over it. Why does Raging bolt have kyurem level Stats + CM + Electric priority? Why does Gouging Fire get an unresisted STAB combo, recovery, and Uber level bulk + setup, while Iron Jugulis doesn't even get Nasty Plot and Roost? Just a weird design choice to have such a competitive imbalance between the two versions of the game, especially since the future paradox mons already get a ton of unwarranted flak imo
smogon-wise, i think that balance really only derailed with the legendary paradoxes, since all three beast paradoxes are OU and have been considered for banning, while the three sword paradoxes did not thrive in OU other than the first month of iron boulder. such is the difference of being part dragon versus part... psychic.
otherwise, past vs future is pretty even: past has one uber (flutter mane), two OU (great tusk, roaring moon), one UU (sandy shocks), one RU (slither wing) and two NU (scream tail, brute bonnet). future has one uber (iron bundle), three OU/UUBL (iron valiant, iron treads, iron hands), two UU/RUBL (iron moth, iron jugulis) and one NUBL (iron thorns). the future ones are actually slightly better tiered!
otherwise, past vs future is pretty even: past has one uber (flutter mane), two OU (great tusk, roaring moon), one UU (sandy shocks), one RU (slither wing) and two NU (scream tail, brute bonnet). future has one uber (iron bundle), three OU/UUBL (iron valiant, iron treads, iron hands), two UU/RUBL (iron moth, iron jugulis) and one NUBL (iron thorns). the future ones are actually slightly better tiered!
DaRotomMachine
I COULD BE BANNED!
I think you forgot Iron boulder and Iron Crown unless I'm missing something
The perceived imbalance could also be from the disparity between the field conditions. Sun has a lot of support, so there's a solid chance you see Protosynthesis getting use without relying on Booster Energy. Electric Terrain doesn't have the capability to be built around even in Natdex (Mono-Electric excepted, since it's going to be running Koko anyway, but then you also can't add most Paradox mons).
oh, i purposefully wasn't including the beast/sword paradoxes because i mentioned them in the previous paragraph. all three beasts are OU (two soon to be uber possibly...), boulder/crown/leaves are OU/UU/RU respectively
I hate Booster energy 
This could've been the Gen Cloud Nine users could've been more useful in VGCoutside Primal Groudon Ubers niche, as Protosynthesis Sun teams are everywhere, but Booster Energy nullifies that completely. You'd *think* a lack of Choice items for them would help, but the bonker stats some have (Fluttermane) and the auto stat buff from Booster energy makes it not a true limitation in practice
Heck, if it was limited to Quark Drive users I wouldn't even be mad, given how rarely Electric Terrain is used. Or maybe have it only activate at low health like a berry, as opposed to immediately
Either way, this meta as a whole has been tiring
This could've been the Gen Cloud Nine users could've been more useful in VGC
Heck, if it was limited to Quark Drive users I wouldn't even be mad, given how rarely Electric Terrain is used. Or maybe have it only activate at low health like a berry, as opposed to immediately
Either way, this meta as a whole has been tiring
On this matter, my contention is more the (admittedly heavily played) overuse of the Kanto Roster: In terms of Dex entries, you could exclude about 26 Pokemon from the Kanto count alone (22 Species that are "only" present because of 11/16 of the XY Megas if we include Scyther for Scizor's, Eevee adds 4 since it's a pre-requisite to Sylveon), and even removing ONLY Kanto from the count under this metric (the most biased it can possibly be against the Gen 1 count), Kanto would still work out to 85 Pokemon and outnumber the next highest in Unova's 80.
I brought the ratio up to a friend who, for fun, is crunching the numbers themselves, and their finding for USUM shows that Kanto sits at 98 > 86 for Alola Pokemon (though for context the 18 Alolan forms were lumped in as new Kanto Pokemon, when I would give 7 of them to Alola thanks to distinct enough design concepts and Gameplay from their counterparts, which shifts it to 91 < 93 in Alola's favor). More concerning at that point is the next highest old regions are Hoenn and Johto at 51 Pokemon in the USUM Alola Dex, still trailing by an ~80% deficit from Kanto. It took until Main-Game Galar for Kanto to not have a significant disparity from the other old regions (53 while others hang around mid-high 30's, save Unova at 85 to Galar's 81). I'll specify again that these counts are Pokemon with Dex entries in these respective games and may be muddied by some quirks like counting by Natdex number (which can get weird again with some Variants that appear multiple times or have both like Meowth or Wooper).
Back to my original point in all this, it's another on the list of ways I think they lean heavily on Kanto and it results in some regions feeling like they have less of their own identity when so much of the "Dex Real Estate" is given to previous regions AND tends to heavily emphasize one to a degree that the larger old-roster alone doesn't fully account for. It took until Dexit to bring the numbers to more reasonable points, but as I have discussed in older annoyance posts, I felt Kanto was being overemphasized in other ways after the series went 3D. If anything this makes it worse in the old games to me. Dexit meant not even coding the old Pokemon in actively, as far as working on their learnsets, animations, or a need for location data, while in the 3DS games, all the Pokemon were coded in for function and thus equally valid options to select for appropriate routes overall (i.e. the designers could choose whatever they want without Coders or Artists saying "those aren't available this time"). In light of this, it almost makes the old mons feel arbitrary in what appears in the region itself, and it continually landed on "1.5x as many Kanto Pokemon" when the alternatives did exist to consider.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
It’s honestly made team building on a current replay of X a bit of a drag trying to stick with only new Mons and Mons that I haven’t used in a previous Y playthrough.
Like there’s four rock types, two of which are mutually exclusive fossils, three ghosts, two of which share the exact same types and a starter type, and Ground, Bug and poison literally having one option, the latter of the three is also version exclusive.
I’ll give credit to the Alola games, there’s far more variety in types when you stick with only new Mons and no repeats of already used Mons. Though they have their own issues too.