The whole thing about the balonflame suspect just makes me think this meta should be ubers based because by OU standards everything viable in this meta is broken and needs to be banned. What we need to do to prevent having a page long banlist is adopt an ubers-like approach(at minimum) to banning to where only uncompetitive things are banned.
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Linked
- Thread starter Hack_Guy
- Start date
It being managable isn't the problem
Well, no. There are other things that can handle physical sweepers, like rocky helmet. I still believe Boost + attack should be banned. I more dislike the fact that talonflame just stops and blanket checks 9
I just think its so retarded that there's a finite 30 something mons that are viable, and thats giving it a much. Looking at OU right now
Alakazam - dies
Altaria - Dies unless Cotton guard
Bisharp - 2HKOd
Breloom - dies
Celebi - dies
Chansey - 2HKOd
Charizard - dies
Clefable - 2HKOd
Conkuldurr - dies
Diancie - 2HKOd
Dragonite - dies unless multiscale
Excadrill - 2HKOd
Ferrothorn - dies to flare blitz
Garchomp - Can take it on, hates will o wisp
Gardevoir - dies
Gengar - dies
Gliscor - burned, 2HKOd, usually wins
Heatran - Sp.def is a check. physical defensive is a counter, lacks recovery
Gothitelle - dies
Gyarados - revenge killed
Hippowdown - 2HKOd
Jirachi - Hates flare blitzs or will o wisp
Keldeo - dies
Kyurem-b - dies
Landorus - 2HKOd
Latias - dies
Latios - dies
Lopunny - dies
Magnezone - flare blitz
Manaphy - dies
Manetric - 2HKOd after rocks
Metagross - will o wisp or flare blitzs
Mew - dies
Raikou - 2HKOd
Rotom-W - shaky check, no recovery
Sableye - dies
scizor - dies
serperior - dies
skarmory - flare blitz or will o wisp
slowbro - 2HKOd unless mega
Starmie - dies
Sylveon - dies
Talonflame - dies
Thundurus - 2HKOd
Tyranitar - burned scarf is 2HKOd
Venusaur - dies
Zapdos - 2hkod after rocks ( I think )
Crawdaunt - dies
Diggersby - dies
Gallade - dies
Hawlucha - dies
Heracross - dies
Klefki - flare blitz
Medicham - dies
Pinsir - dies
Scolipede - dies
Smeargle - dies
Staraptor - dies
Terrakion - dies
Thundurus-T - 2hkod
Togekiss - dies
Venomoth - dies
Victini - dies
Volcarona - dies
Weavile - dies
zygarde - 2hkod
Thats OU too BL your only reliable switch in is physically defensive Heatran or physically defensive Mega slowbro. Anything else doesn't like switch into a set of Choice banded Talonflame with Aerial ace, brave bird, will o wisp, flare blitz. It's not the fact that it lacks switch ins, but that it straight up stops such a large portion of the metagame from functioning. And Heatran and Slowbro can both be trapped by Gothitelle, for that matter. I'd like to see it go to encourage more diverse sets and pokemon, especially all of those I listed as "dies" How many of those have you seen?
I've been running LO Thundy with TWave/Taunt/Tbolt/HP Ice and it's hella useful as a lead. Thunder Wave is very helpful for long-term neutralization of fast threats, and gives lasting consequences to most defensive Pokemon. It can also sacrifice itself to let a teammate take out a rogue sweeper. Taunt/Torment/Sub/Tbolt seems good too, though. Prankster is god in this tier.
Anyways: I don't think Talonflame is healthy in this metagame.
From a theoretical standpoint: I think almost any viable Pokemon as it's used in Linked, getting to use two particular moves in a row, would be broken in standard OU. It's a massive increase in utility for non-offensive mons, eases prediction a ton, and makes offensive Pokemon loads more powerful. The reason we don't have to ban these obviously broken Pokemon in Linked is because they're going up against other Pokemon that are broken in the same way. You can use two attacks at once? That's cool, I'm faster and KO you. Or I manage to tank them and KO you back, or I have some other combo to pull off, or I boost and recover and suddenly your power isn't enough. The point being that, to a certain extent,
Talonflame is, for the most part, not operating in a Linked environment, simply because for many, many things, Talonflame does not care that they have linked moves, because it goes first and either KOs or wears them down past the point of uselessness. It is simultaneously one of the fastest priority users, outsped outside of Trick Room only by Extreme Speed, and one of, if not the, most powerful priority users, both in raw power and in having a good attacking type (unlike Extreme Speed, which goes unlinked and offstab and is frickin Normal-type). Everything turns Nkos into N-1kos, but Talonflame can abuse this ability far better than anything else in the meta.
This brings us to the practical side of things. People above me, who have put a lot more thought into it than I, have highlighted how Talonflame's presence nerfs so many 'mons -- ones that it didn't in OU, because it did not have the power to OKHO or to 2HKO them as necessary before, but it has them now. And those 'mons do not, for the most part, get any new ways to retaliate. It's overcentralizing not because it forces you to run certain 'mons, but because it forces you not to run certain 'mons, or only run them with a damn hard counter for Talonflame. And I kind of want to use Fighting-types without having to use a teamslot on Tankchomp or Pdef Heatran, you know?
As for checking setup sweepers, well, if they're not boosting their speed, you can typically take them out with a Scarf user or a strong priority user, or (as I like to do) Prankster status to let something else check them. The problem comes in when they're a Scarf user or a Dragon Dancer or whatever. And as mentioned previously, speed boosting+attacking means that setup sweepers don't grant free turns like they do in standard. If we need an unhealthy 'mon like Talonflame to keep a strategy in check, then that strategy is itself unhealthy.
tl;dr Ban Talonflame for being broken in theory and in practice, and ban boost+attack links so that they don't kill everyone who doesn't run Talonflame. It'll also free up team slots that were grudgingly given to Quagsire or Clefable (again, not that these won't be great mons)
Ubers has, what, thirty generally viable Pokemon, counting Arceus formes? That's about what we'll get if we go that route, I'd say (especially if we go with an ubers banlist, though I don't think that's what you're suggesting). A lengthy viability rankings would more than compensate for a lengthy banlist, IMO.
Why, exactly, are you running choice banded willowisp?
Personally, for Talonflame, my counter is Heatran, running a set of Magma Storm / Substitute / Protect / Toxic, which basically allows it to stall out everything if it already has a Substitute up if it doesn't have a two attack link (with a first attack that can destroy the substitute), attack + recovery (again, has to kill the substitute), Substitute + attack (see the other two notes), Flash Fire (willowisp hex chandelier still loses horribly), or Poison Heal with Substitute. Also weak to PP stall and Magma Miss.
However, I still don't like Talonflame's presence in the metagame, due especially to the fact that Heatran is one of the very few viable counters, and if the opposing team has Talon that becomes its sole purpose until tflame is dead. Meaning that against a team with a Smogonbird I am basically playing 5-5.
Also, "it checks threats" is not a good reason to not ban something. Sure, it checks mega gyara and weavile, but so does Clefable. And anything with priority other than Ice Shard for the latter.
Playing against a team with checks that are killed by Will O Wisp I'd rather start of by going for Will O Wisp so I can cripple it, reducing its life span
ScorrchingTheaph
nO u
Everything viable is broken and needs to be banned? If we ban everything, then previously unviable pokemon will become viable and "broken," so then everything will be banned, which is not healthy for a metagame. Uncompetetive strategies are being banned, such as flinch spam with KingsRock/Razor Fang, or protect spam in a link. (btw if you want ubers linked, its playable on pandora)
I'm pretty sure your calcs are for choice banded Tflame, meaning that a lot of the pokemon you listed are able to switch in if you predict, or if talon is locked into a move. Also, your set does not run roost, meaning it can't switch in and out of rocks. If you get a good switch in against talon, you force it to either switch, or die.
Haven't read as lot on the thread and I'm just gonna start playing this now, but here I thought of a thing:
Cottonee @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 1
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Endeavor
- Filler
Seed should heal you enough to put a Sub every turn, since they will have +1 priority, it will protect you forever. Endeavor speeds the process up, and can be very helpful for setup sweepers and when predicting switches.
Also, is Endure not banned? Seems like Shedinja could abuse it with Swords Dance,and more interestingly, Baton Pass, but unfortunetly, only against slower opponents
Cottonee @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 1
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Endeavor
- Filler
Seed should heal you enough to put a Sub every turn, since they will have +1 priority, it will protect you forever. Endeavor speeds the process up, and can be very helpful for setup sweepers and when predicting switches.
Also, is Endure not banned? Seems like Shedinja could abuse it with Swords Dance,and more interestingly, Baton Pass, but unfortunetly, only against slower opponents
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thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Two attacks will demolish your cottonee, since the first kills the sub and the second kills you. That's a pretty bad set :/
also yeah shedinja is waaaay too slow, but it might have a niche without endure considering all these manaphies and clefables.
ScorrchingTheaph
nO u
focus sash is quite useless here, due to double attacks, and sub will not protect against double attacks either, or sound moves. Also, there is fake out and espeed, which will cripple it.
Endure is not banned, but it can't really be abused on shedinja because of lack or priority and really bad speed. I personally use it on dnite with espeed.
EDIT: i got ninja'd
This is exactly what I'm thinking. In short, this meta is meant to be broken. I can name many things that DO NOT use the general set up + attack link that have next to no switch ins (like Mega Lopunny in my post a couple of pages ago). People cry set up + attack moves should be banned. I'm sure they'd cry for other things to be banned because those things have next to no counters. Two attacks in a row is just ridiculous.
Just out of curiosity, how do moves with mixed priorities work in a link? For example focus punch or pursuit?
Focus punch has -3 priority, the "x pokemon is tightening it's focus" is a text that always happens at the start of the turn, so the move itself will be executed at -3 priority, but the text will pop up at the start
For pursuit, it's base power doubles and hits the pokemon that comes in
I've been using a trash set that's actually served me pretty well with Rocks support
GARBAGE (Sharpedo) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Super Fang
- Brine
- Protect
- Ice Beam
I don't know if this has been said before (it probably has) but Super Fang essentially makes Brine a nice 130 BP STAB move. Protect is for speed boosts / Fake Out / scouting, and Ice Beam is coverage. Of course, you have to get rid of all the Ghost-types first. Rocks support is nice for 'mons with odd-numbered HP stats.
EDIT: New set.
GARBAGE (Sharpedo) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Super Fang
- Brine
- Protect
- Aqua Jet
As suggested by I like donkeys Aqua Jet is to bop T-flame after Rocks.
GARBAGE (Sharpedo) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Super Fang
- Brine
- Protect
- Ice Beam
I don't know if this has been said before (it probably has) but Super Fang essentially makes Brine a nice 130 BP STAB move. Protect is for speed boosts / Fake Out / scouting, and Ice Beam is coverage. Of course, you have to get rid of all the Ghost-types first. Rocks support is nice for 'mons with odd-numbered HP stats.
EDIT: New set.
GARBAGE (Sharpedo) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Super Fang
- Brine
- Protect
- Aqua Jet
As suggested by I like donkeys Aqua Jet is to bop T-flame after Rocks.
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That's actually a pretty neat set, the only thing i'd change is putting aqua jet somewhere so you can bop Talonburd :3
So I noticed choice items now only do the first hit after the first time you do it. Is it a bug or intentional haven't played in a few days and cant find anything on it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-239035509
^turn 3
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-239035509
^turn 3
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Yeah, it's a bug. The coders are working on fixing it I think, its been happening for a couple days now
I think I found a pretty decent Conkeldurr set:
Conkeldurr (M) @ Fist Plate
Ability: Iron Fist (This was important in my calculations)
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power-Up Punch
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off/Ice Punch/Poison Jab
Although it dies to Talonflame, this thing is a monster. Fist Plate+Iron Fist+STAB=Wreckage. Under Trick Room, almost nothing can touch this due to its low speed (base 44), and most of the time it's guaranteed to get a kill during those four turns of Trick Room. Ice Punch could be used if Lando-T is more of a problem for your team: same goes for Clefable (Poison Jab). Here are some calcs against defensive pokes in the viability rankings:
And this is just the mons from S through A-.
Obviously, Conkeldurr struggles against Quagsire. Quagsire can just recover whatever damage is done, and ignores the Power-Up Punch boosts. Going though the rest of the viability rankings, it also struggles with Mew, Mega Venesaur, (Mega) Slowbro, bulky Mega Scizor, Reuiniclus, Mega Sableye, Salamence (if no Ice Punch), Hippowdon, Mega Latias, Forretress, Tropius (if no Ice Punch, and lol) and bulky ghosts in general.
One thing to not about Conkeldurr is that it's also fairly bulky since it doesn't invest in speed. Max HP is preferred, but you can customize it to live a certain move/linked moves if you like. I think a ranking of C would be appropriate because of the omnipresence of Talonflame, but once Talon is removed (as in from the match), it becomes a fearsome sweeper.
Also let me know if i missed something, I'll edit it in.
Conkeldurr (M) @ Fist Plate
Ability: Iron Fist (This was important in my calculations)
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power-Up Punch
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off/Ice Punch/Poison Jab
Although it dies to Talonflame, this thing is a monster. Fist Plate+Iron Fist+STAB=Wreckage. Under Trick Room, almost nothing can touch this due to its low speed (base 44), and most of the time it's guaranteed to get a kill during those four turns of Trick Room. Ice Punch could be used if Lando-T is more of a problem for your team: same goes for Clefable (Poison Jab). Here are some calcs against defensive pokes in the viability rankings:
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Most likely 2HKO after SR
Power-Up Punch+Drain Punch doesn't 2HKO.
Most likely 2HKO after SR
Power-Up Punch+Drain Punch doesn't 2HKO.
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- 51.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 306-361 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 306-361 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 328-388 (92.6 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is kind of obvious. However, if you don't have Ice Punch:
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 39-47 (11 - 13.2%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%)
This does a minimum of 32% after one turn of poison heal (20% if poison heal is already activated). Then:
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 59-70 (16.6 - 19.7%)
+2 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 146-172 (41.2 - 48.5%)
Gliscor is left at (at most) ~10%. Afterwards, all Gliscor can do is protect (if under Trick Room).
This is kind of obvious. However, if you don't have Ice Punch:
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 39-47 (11 - 13.2%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%)
This does a minimum of 32% after one turn of poison heal (20% if poison heal is already activated). Then:
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 59-70 (16.6 - 19.7%)
+2 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 146-172 (41.2 - 48.5%)
Gliscor is left at (at most) ~10%. Afterwards, all Gliscor can do is protect (if under Trick Room).
This is actually kind of a struggle. Besides of Ice Punch, Conkeldurr is pretty limited.
-1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 29-34 (7.5 - 8.9%)
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 79-93 (20.6 - 24.3%)
I don't know how viable defensive Lando-T is in this meta, but it's a hard KO for Conkeldurr. After the 22% maximum damage done (after Leftovers), this happens.
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 42-51 (10.9 - 13.3%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.3%)
That's a bit better. Landorus-T is now down to at most 36%. What it can do back:
4 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 156-184 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
That is a hefty bunch, but Conkeldurr a bit better shape after recovering from Drain Punch. After that, you have one more turn of outslowing your opponent before Trick Room wears off, assuming these circumstances. Univested Landorus-Therian is 2HKO'ed.
-1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 29-34 (7.5 - 8.9%)
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 79-93 (20.6 - 24.3%)
I don't know how viable defensive Lando-T is in this meta, but it's a hard KO for Conkeldurr. After the 22% maximum damage done (after Leftovers), this happens.
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 42-51 (10.9 - 13.3%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.3%)
That's a bit better. Landorus-T is now down to at most 36%. What it can do back:
4 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 156-184 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
That is a hefty bunch, but Conkeldurr a bit better shape after recovering from Drain Punch. After that, you have one more turn of outslowing your opponent before Trick Room wears off, assuming these circumstances. Univested Landorus-Therian is 2HKO'ed.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 188-222 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 210-248 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are both 2HKOs. In the event that you have Knock Off:
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 51-60 (16.6 - 19.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 141-167 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Power-Up Punch+Drain Punch also 2HKOs.
252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 210-248 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are both 2HKOs. In the event that you have Knock Off:
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 51-60 (16.6 - 19.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 141-167 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Power-Up Punch+Drain Punch also 2HKOs.
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2HKO. Also prevents Belly Drum (under Trick Room, obviously).
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2HKO. Also prevents Belly Drum (under Trick Room, obviously).
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 56-66 (12.9 - 15.2%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 156-185 (36.1 - 42.8%)
If you are slower, then it's a 2HKO. This is the standard OU defensive set. Well, what about max/max?
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 50-59 (11.5 - 13.6%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 138-163 (31.9 - 37.7%)
Still a 2HKO.
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 156-185 (36.1 - 42.8%)
If you are slower, then it's a 2HKO. This is the standard OU defensive set. Well, what about max/max?
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 50-59 (11.5 - 13.6%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 138-163 (31.9 - 37.7%)
Still a 2HKO.
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 48-57 (12.5 - 14.8%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%)
2HKO, especially if they Roost. Again, this is the standard OU defensive set. Now onto max/max:
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 44-52 (11.4 - 13.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 123-144 (32 - 37.5%)
After these attacks, Zapdos is at a maximum of 62.6% after Leftovers recovery, and is promptly 2HKO'ed.
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%)
2HKO, especially if they Roost. Again, this is the standard OU defensive set. Now onto max/max:
252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 44-52 (11.4 - 13.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 123-144 (32 - 37.5%)
After these attacks, Zapdos is at a maximum of 62.6% after Leftovers recovery, and is promptly 2HKO'ed.
And this is just the mons from S through A-.
Obviously, Conkeldurr struggles against Quagsire. Quagsire can just recover whatever damage is done, and ignores the Power-Up Punch boosts. Going though the rest of the viability rankings, it also struggles with Mew, Mega Venesaur, (Mega) Slowbro, bulky Mega Scizor, Reuiniclus, Mega Sableye, Salamence (if no Ice Punch), Hippowdon, Mega Latias, Forretress, Tropius (if no Ice Punch, and lol) and bulky ghosts in general.
One thing to not about Conkeldurr is that it's also fairly bulky since it doesn't invest in speed. Max HP is preferred, but you can customize it to live a certain move/linked moves if you like. I think a ranking of C would be appropriate because of the omnipresence of Talonflame, but once Talon is removed (as in from the match), it becomes a fearsome sweeper.
Also let me know if i missed something, I'll edit it in.
I'm not quite following why this isn't Guts+Flame Orb, which will turn Poison Jab into a OHKO on Clefable (And in general improves any non-punch move you might run, such as Knock Off) and just generally hits harder than 2 chained 20% boosts. Your very first turn out will be weaker, but after that you're flatly better, and since you're going to be spamming Drain Punch anyway, the residual damage is pretty meh. On top of that it provides immunity to status, and in particular means that you don't have to worry about Burns crippling you permanently. It also means that, after the first turn, you don't really care if they remove your item.
I really can't think of a meaningful advantage to running Fist Plate+Iron Fist over Flame Orb+Guts.
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Well the team I run this on is Trick Room based (sorry if it wasn't obvious) and in case I don't get an OHKO, I can survive hits better. Also, Power-Up Punch does make Conkeldurr progressively stronger. I have other members on my team that can take care of Clefable. Priority other than Talonflame isn't that strong, and if Conkeldurr was burned, priority could take it out much more easily.
EDIT: come to think of it, Mach Punch wouldn't be that useful except for that turn when Trick Room wears off. Two coverage moves would probably be better. This would help hit more pokes at once, like Poison Jab+Ice Punch for Clefable and Landorus-Therian, respectively.
I understand all of that, and none of it explains why you'd go for maximum punchiness when Burned Guts is just plain better. Have you performed any calcs where something gets to KO Conkeldurr due to the residual Burn damage, where it wouldn't otherwise, or something?
Coverage-wise I'd probably go with Poison Jab+Knock off so you can smash Ghosts and clear away items against whatever small list of things you can't effortlessly kill.
Coverage-wise I'd probably go with Poison Jab+Knock off so you can smash Ghosts and clear away items against whatever small list of things you can't effortlessly kill.
Whoops, I somehow managed to misunderstand your whole first post. Sorry. I have no idea what I was thinking. Yeah, Guts is better because if you're clicking drain punch, you're back at around 88% if you get the KO. Although Fist Plate+Iron Fist is kinda close in damage output (1.44 compared to 1.5), Guts also benefits the coverage moves more. Additionally, the burn can also block other statuses from ruining your sweep such as sleep and possibly para. Thanks, I'll definitely try it out and most likely will be sticking to it.
Bulk up > PuP
Iron fist > Guts because you're better off running Macho brace to outspeed Rhyperior and Donkey's Magnezone. Bulk up lets you beat Talonflame btw
Well I don't exactly need this to beat Talonflame. I'm on mobile right now, but somehow even if I get to plus six defense it'll still put a dent in for any special attacker to take me out. I'm assuming that you're modifying my original set and keeping Mach Punch though, right?
+3 Conkukderr will live at 50% and regain all of its health about. With trick room up it'll outspeed anything