Yea I don't see how purloin is any less broken than Liepard. Sure like five more common pokemon can now outspeed it with their priority attacks, but bulky/stall playstyles without magic coat are still helpless against the tactic. Limiting all teams to have a priority user, no stealth rocks, or magic coat is too much to not call broken imo.
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Liepard Suspect Discussion (Read post #202)
- Thread starter Raseri
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To be honest, this is kind of bull shit in my opinion. Obviously if you use absolutely shit set on good Pokemon, those sets won't be broken. That was never the point with Liepard, who has multiple good sets and only one broken one. But even so! Assist + Prankster ban is the best choice in general because any viable Pokemon that could run it would be broken with it. Liepard and Purrloin are the only ones in the game that get it, so they're the only ones we can look at. But from a broader standpoint, if you gave any decent NU Pokemon Assist + Prankster, it would be broken with this strategy. I don't know why we're asking if a shitty Pokemon in LC and worthless Pokemon in NU is broken with it, but even so, you've asked and have been shown that it really isn't much less viable than Liepard. In fact, it can actually get by Kangaskan without having a Sub up, making it better than Liepard against most teams with Kangaskhan. Assist + Prankster is still the best way to go, and now that we've bent over backwards to show that even a bottom tier LC Pokemon can use it viably, hopefully more people will understand that.
You don't actually have to run teams without Stealth Rock. Almost every Stealth Rock user in NU is slow enough for your relatively fast, non-Choice Scarfed teammates to outspeed and KO the transformed Ditto, assuming you carry Pokemon that can do such thing. For instance, Golem, Probopass, Metang, Piloswine, Bastiodon, Torterra, Golurk, Regirock, etc, are slow and so you can use something such as Jynx, Braviary, Sawk, Charizard, and Primeape (Scarfed or not), among other things, to prevent the Assist team from getting any hazards up. Seismitoad and Spikes Scolipede are a little different due to their higher Speed, but it's still workable if you carry appropriate teammates. It's not the end of the world if you're using a team with Stealth Rock.
This is essentially what I just said, the only difference is that I believe Liepard should be banned if Purrloin isn't broken cause then it is a Liepard problem. Also lets not pretend that Liepard can't run the same set and still fare much better against Kangaskhan than Purrloin does, lol. As for making people "bend over backwards", sorry that I think a suspect test should involve a rational testing, and not just an emotional reaction to getting beaten by an obnoxious strategy.atomicllamas said:
Ok, I gonna use that battled to post my thought on this suspect discussion:
First the battle:
Some of the counters to assist cat have been mentioned, fake out kanga, volt switch probo, etc.... My approach to this matter is to NEVER let liepard set up on me. If you look at my team neither of them are liepard setup fodder. I carry two of the mentioned counters to liepard, a lurer signal beam musharna, the weird (and almost useless) taunt Sawk, standard scarf ape and an extra volturner in Eelektross.
Here I slighty disagree with tenni, mini cat not only perform the same role, he do it better!
Fake out on kanga: wasted with protect
Quick attack Swellow: extra burn damage with protect
Close Combats: stalled with protect
Protect is so damn good on purrloin that is just plain better. what you say? that you can't setup NP with purrloin? wherever told you that this is neccesary is a liar. For example my team never give an opportunity to set up to liepard, and I think this is the best you can do against assist cat, imo. Tenni stalled me way better with sub + protect than any liepard will ever do with sub only. Sub + protect purrloin bypass all the "counters" of assist cat in exchange of giving up the opportunity of maybe sweep with NP liepard, but sweeping never was this team goal anyway :s
Second, the ban discussion:
I want everyone to read this post that I will call Tennisace Proposal.
There he propose to ban Assist + roar/whirlwind in the same team and make good points in their deffense. I totally support this complex ban and here a few more reasons if we decide to adopt that complex ban:
We will keep SwagPard that is luck reliant and way more manageable
We will keep Pivot Liepard that is a legit and useful set on big cat
We will keep Roar riolu, that need a turn to set up and is priority weak
we will keep all other prankster user (volbeat and illumise being the most prominent)
We will lose assist purrloin
We will lose assist scarf shenanigans
We will lose molk horrible idea of assist liepard
(I think you already got my point)
Third, broken or not broken?
As tennisace said in his post neither of the pokemon on the team are broken by themself, the bad part is when they got together. Unstopable, of course not! hard to beat, maybe. You will lose if you don't prepare for it, SURE!. FLCL posted somewhere that this team really restrict teambuilding and this is my main reason to do something about it.
With assist cat in the tier: stalll is not viable, bulky offense is not viable, wheather is not viable... only viable teams are hyperoffensive teams BUT with the restriction that no one of the members are liepard setup fodder. In my oppinion if a treat (in this case a whole team) have that heavy influence in teambuilding options is really unhealthy to the metagame.
Now you say that Jynx, Primeape and Scolipede made stall and bulky offense unviable, well you are wrong! they surely made then harder to built but not impossible. NU have really good walls and bulky attackers, that their usage dropped in favor of faster options does not make then useless. An example is Musharna revival thanks to Treecko and his T-wave Mushy, taking the 3rd spot in usage stats this month. Tangela, alomomola, roselia, torkoal, probopass and my favorite Mandibuzz all of then good and viable walls.... but all of then assist cat setup fodder....
To wrap it all: For heavily restricting teambuilding options we should do something about assist teams (not only liepard or purrloin) and in my honestly opinion, tenni's proposal is the best course of action.
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Nah, I get it for sure. The main point of my post, however catty it might have sounded, was that the idea of "if Purrloin isn't broken with this strategy, we need to ban Liepard" doesn't make sense because we wouldn't hold any other strategies to the same standard. I just don't understand why we're expecting a shitty LC mon to be broken with this strategy lol. If Clamperl got SmashPass, I'm pretty sure RU would have banned it anyways, even though Clamperl wouldn't be broken with it. I probably should have just bolded the relevant part in your quote because my post wasn't a reaction to the whole thing.
I have never faced the assist Liepard in my life, even with all the NU I play. I've only faced the swagger T-wave one, but holy Jesus. I faced it while I was laddering to vote. The dude only brought three pokes. Ditto, Liepard, And Dustox (which I assume ONLY had whirlwind. I lead with my Custap Dwebble, as I always do. He leads with Ditto, gets 2 layers of Spikes. then Liepard. Broken as hell. This will have to be the first time I seriously ladder to vote, because there's no way this little bastard can stay. It may even be broken in OU. maybe a complex ban is really needed, because I have never had all that much trouble with Swagger/T-wave.
I'm not saying this match was amazing or anything and I'm not convinced divecats is quite as noncompetitive, but it can do some pretty obnoxious stuff: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55128542
I'll try to edit in a better match some time
I'll try to edit in a better match some time
It isn't just the speed. There are numerous reasons why Purrloin isn't nearly as effective as Liepard using Assist.
A: It has much worse defense, meaning it can never ever get a sub on anything or take a hit on anything. While Liepard occasionally has to live a weak attack from a wall(that still does like 80-90) to set up a Nasty Plot....or take damage from Khan or Dragonair, Purrloin with it's 41/37/37 defense cannot live anything.
B: It can't Nasty Plot sweep to begin with. This means on teams with either no hazards or teams that Ditto has trouble getting in on, Purrloin will be useless and defeat will be nearly imminent.
The "but you can't use such and such poorly designed team with this in the tier" arguments are as bad as usual. There are a LOT of things you can't use in the tier...Psychic spam was awesome a few shifts ago, now with everyone overprepared for Jynx that strategy will lose you a ton of games. Something shouldn't be banned on the grounds of perserving some niche strategy..it should be banned if the amount of checks and counters is so small that it breaks the meta.
Purrloin's checks and counters GREATLY exceed Liepard, inarguably....hell it's even countered outright by every other Prankster given it's pitiful speed.
Unlike Liepard is has zero margin for error when setting up, which makes a much bigger difference. It's also much more one dimensional, being a total non-threat if a hazard isn't up...while Liepard can still sweep and will look to if the plan to get hazards fails for some reason.
And while it isn't easy to stop, it has a half dozen more counters than Liepard has due to it's poor speed.
I'd also question the need for such a complex ban? Why not just ban Assist outright? It certainly wouldnt be a major loss for the tier. And would possibly prevent a lot of future shenanginans. Unless we feel strongly about preserving the likes of say, Spinda Contrary abuse or whatever.
And while it isn't easy to stop, it has a half dozen more counters than Liepard has due to it's poor speed.
I'd also question the need for such a complex ban? Why not just ban Assist outright? It certainly wouldnt be a major loss for the tier. And would possibly prevent a lot of future shenanginans. Unless we feel strongly about preserving the likes of say, Spinda Contrary abuse or whatever.
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tennisace said:
Tennis has a cool replay showing how Purloin is just as effective as Liepard. Purloin's role isn't to sweep. It is to phaze around until the team has a good match up or can set up hazards. Any player wouldn't let their purloin get hit at all with Assist+Protect+substitute.TLCJR4LIFE said:
Purrloin isn't as hard (still annoying) to deal with as Liepard because it lacks any options to truly punish opponents who give it free turns, especially when faced with the Stealth Rocker + anti-Stealth Rocker combo. There are also Stealth Rockers faster than Purrloin (Seismitoad, Gabite, Miltank) that can evade Ditto, meaning the Purrloin team will never get hazards up.
Basically the main point is that many teams cannot simply be beaten by killing them off with hazards for a multitude of reasons. Therefore the plan B of using NP and DP is something that will occur at least every three games or so, Purrloin's lack of this option give it worthless consistency and because of this would likely not see major use.
purrloin could run sub / protect / foul play or toxic instead of nasty plot and dark pulse which actually gets it past kangaskhan and allows it to stall swellow for toxic damage but then it has absolutely no way of getting past steel-types or poison-types if it chooses to run toxic. it is also open to zangoose, jolly samurott, pinsir, and basculin. also it will have a hard time killing something that doesn't care about toxic and has recovery such as roselia, golbat, etc. in my opinion it's not nearly as good as liepard since often times you're relying solely on assist to hurt the opposing team, which can drain your pp fairly quickly, but i haven't tested it out so i can't say for sure. if it is broken though then banning assist instead of liepard might become an option
Personally, I'm loving the fact that Liepard is up for suspect.
If you'll let me, I'd like to bring up that infamous swagger, t-wave, foul play set again.
I'd like to make a case why, even ignoring the incredibly annoying sets listed above, this set is reason alone to ban it.
1) I'm gonna give you the extremely simplified argument but generally, this set brings the average w/l record of both players involved in a match w/ this set closer to 50%. Thus, players who can't get a 50% w/l ratio on their own merit will get more wins and those who have the skill/teambuilding to get more wins than losses will lose more. Once again, this is extremely simplified and I'll explain this better when I've not this tired.
2) Looking at smogon's record on "haxy" abilities (sand veil, moody) and moves (minimize, double team), frankly I'm surprised Liepard hasn't been given the ban hammer before. When you get down to it, is there really a difference between spamming swagger and spamming double team?
3) Wasn't Thundurus banned to Ubers because it could priority t-wave? I actually am entirely unsure why it was banned since I didn't even play competitively at the time but it seems to me that's pretty much the only reason why Thun-T is OU and regular Thundurus is ubers. I'm not much of an OU player either actually so I could be insanely wrong here lol.
4) There is no thought process at all when using Liepard. All you have to do is swagger when they aren't confused and sub when they are, maybe drop a t-wave or foul play here and there for good measure. There is no "do I predict them to do X and sub or Y and foul play?", no you just spam one or the other until either you or your opponent dies as a result of bad luck. As we approach 6th gen, this vote will set an important precedent for whether or not this style of play is acceptable or not. My opinion is that it isn't.
5) If Liepard haxes something to death and ends up behind a sub, then it's even more likely to hax something else to death since it starts out with a free turn to spam swagger. So, if you "luck" something to death then it often begins a chain in which you keep getting luck-based kills.
Like I said, I'm extremely tired right now so I apologize if anything I say lacks sense/logic etc.
Obviously there are things that swagger is less effective on but IMO even just preventing something from attacking (making it continually hit itself in confusion) is reason enough to suspect it.
Also I agree that Liepard could be subject to a complex ban so long as this shit (and assist bullshit) is part of it
If you'll let me, I'd like to bring up that infamous swagger, t-wave, foul play set again.
I'd like to make a case why, even ignoring the incredibly annoying sets listed above, this set is reason alone to ban it.
1) I'm gonna give you the extremely simplified argument but generally, this set brings the average w/l record of both players involved in a match w/ this set closer to 50%. Thus, players who can't get a 50% w/l ratio on their own merit will get more wins and those who have the skill/teambuilding to get more wins than losses will lose more. Once again, this is extremely simplified and I'll explain this better when I've not this tired.
2) Looking at smogon's record on "haxy" abilities (sand veil, moody) and moves (minimize, double team), frankly I'm surprised Liepard hasn't been given the ban hammer before. When you get down to it, is there really a difference between spamming swagger and spamming double team?
3) Wasn't Thundurus banned to Ubers because it could priority t-wave? I actually am entirely unsure why it was banned since I didn't even play competitively at the time but it seems to me that's pretty much the only reason why Thun-T is OU and regular Thundurus is ubers. I'm not much of an OU player either actually so I could be insanely wrong here lol.
4) There is no thought process at all when using Liepard. All you have to do is swagger when they aren't confused and sub when they are, maybe drop a t-wave or foul play here and there for good measure. There is no "do I predict them to do X and sub or Y and foul play?", no you just spam one or the other until either you or your opponent dies as a result of bad luck. As we approach 6th gen, this vote will set an important precedent for whether or not this style of play is acceptable or not. My opinion is that it isn't.
5) If Liepard haxes something to death and ends up behind a sub, then it's even more likely to hax something else to death since it starts out with a free turn to spam swagger. So, if you "luck" something to death then it often begins a chain in which you keep getting luck-based kills.
Like I said, I'm extremely tired right now so I apologize if anything I say lacks sense/logic etc.
Obviously there are things that swagger is less effective on but IMO even just preventing something from attacking (making it continually hit itself in confusion) is reason enough to suspect it.
Also I agree that Liepard could be subject to a complex ban so long as this shit (and assist bullshit) is part of it
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Oh and finally, it seems your beef is with the set and not Liepard itself, so no doubt you'd present us with a similiar case with Murkrow, Purrloin, or even any fast Pokemon with those 4 moves (like Purugly), so no, you don't want to ban Liepard, you want to ban parafusion, which means stuff like Rotom-S and Dunsparce would also fall under this category (Dunsparce is outright ruined). Also, there are even more broken parafusioners like Togekiss and Jirachi that even boast fantastic bulk and recovery, but they've never gotten banned (or even suspected, correct me if I'm wrong here), so while SwagPard is 'unethical', it's not even really "uncompetitive" as there are still ways to beat it. The biggest factor here is that you don't even have to really "prepare" for SwagPard: it either pulls it off with success or flops completely (oh so many times).
Just run a Lum Golem with Rock Blast and you're fine for Swag Liepard, and you have a +2 Golem that can either set up SR next turn or wreck something else. I 6-0' some noobs that Swaggered Golem and then had everything OHKO'd in between Rock Blast, Earthquake and Sucker Punch. And if there isn't a Liepard, the Lum can help against a random Toxic, Will-O-Wisp or Sleep Powder.
You really don't need to go out of your way to counter Swag liepard, there are many counters to it. Unlike Assist Liepard, it is countered far easier with Magic Coat since its "set-up moves" are countered by it (while Assist Liepard uses Substitute and Magic Coat) If your Magic Coat mon can OHKO/phaze Liepard, you are fine.
Assist Liepard has far less counters, since Lum doesn't help and it beats most Magic Coat mons (outside of Bastiodon) as well, and as such can only be handled by half a dozen mons that have access to faster priority.
As such, I am of the opinion only Assist needs to be banned.
You really don't need to go out of your way to counter Swag liepard, there are many counters to it. Unlike Assist Liepard, it is countered far easier with Magic Coat since its "set-up moves" are countered by it (while Assist Liepard uses Substitute and Magic Coat) If your Magic Coat mon can OHKO/phaze Liepard, you are fine.
Assist Liepard has far less counters, since Lum doesn't help and it beats most Magic Coat mons (outside of Bastiodon) as well, and as such can only be handled by half a dozen mons that have access to faster priority.
As such, I am of the opinion only Assist needs to be banned.
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I think Treecko is absolutely right about banning Assist+Prankster. He already made good points in his post so I'm not going to restate them. Purrloin might not be as broken as Liepard is, but Purrloin can also become an uncompetitive Pokemon that is capable of doing exactly what Liepard does, and if only Liepard goes, I'm sure as hell that people will start building Purrloin teams. Purrloin certainly can't sweep on its own and loses to lots more things compared to Liepard, but don't forget that it also can spam Whirlwind and Toxic, allowing it to wear down the opponent, and following that, a teammate can easily finish off the last Pokemon.
I don't think what Punchshroom said about SR users being faster than Purrloin evading Ditto really matters that much because in the end if you keep shuffling with Purrloin, it's still a mind game between Purrloin and the SR user between whether Purrloin will set up or switch, so in the end it's still the same story of the Purrloin user winning if it predicts right, and not losing all that much even if it predicts wrong and being able to repeat the scenario again and again.
I don't think what Punchshroom said about SR users being faster than Purrloin evading Ditto really matters that much because in the end if you keep shuffling with Purrloin, it's still a mind game between Purrloin and the SR user between whether Purrloin will set up or switch, so in the end it's still the same story of the Purrloin user winning if it predicts right, and not losing all that much even if it predicts wrong and being able to repeat the scenario again and again.
OK. So I still don't like complex bans for a simple reason that, to me, actually makes a good deal of sense. Why do a complex ban of Assist + Prankster or Whirlwind/Roar? When we ban an aspect of a Pokemon we don't generally ban it on limited reasoning to be super-specific. It wasn't only Sand Veil Garchomp that was banned, but also Cacturne and Gligar and everything else, because all of Sand Veil was banned. Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned, not Drizzle + Swift Swim Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops/Floatzel/Armaldo/Omastar/etcetc, even though Luvdisc is not a problem. Simpler bans are better.
Banning Assist alone doesn't damage any playstyles besides FLCL's diabolical team and the uber-troll strategy of divecats, which frankly is also noncompetitive, even if it's a lot worse than Roar/Whirlwind. Why overcomplicate it? Ban Assist.
Banning Assist alone doesn't damage any playstyles besides FLCL's diabolical team and the uber-troll strategy of divecats, which frankly is also noncompetitive, even if it's a lot worse than Roar/Whirlwind. Why overcomplicate it? Ban Assist.
The fact that people are still bringing up Swagger + T-Wave in this thread is upsetting. You're complaining about hax, not a Pokemon. So, please stop saying it's broken.
Assist is not broken as a whole though. Just because it's broken on ONE Pokemon, it doesn't merit banning it from the entire tier.
I was debating on bringing up banning Assist + Prankster ban, because that is really the one that is the most logical idea. Liepard (and Purrloin to a small extent) without Prankster Assist is not broken. Anyway, Treecko basically said everything I was going to, but yeah.
Assist is not broken as a whole though. Just because it's broken on ONE Pokemon, it doesn't merit banning it from the entire tier.
I was debating on bringing up banning Assist + Prankster ban, because that is really the one that is the most logical idea. Liepard (and Purrloin to a small extent) without Prankster Assist is not broken. Anyway, Treecko basically said everything I was going to, but yeah.
If we ban Prankster+Assist, I expect to see Persian/Purugly/Sneasel /w Assist to pick up the slack, which is why I prefer a full Assist ban.
Of course, these three are stopped easily by priority not named Sucker Punch (most notably Gurdurr's Mach Punch) as well as extremely fast mons like Electrode, but it is still obnoxious as hell.
Of course, these three are stopped easily by priority not named Sucker Punch (most notably Gurdurr's Mach Punch) as well as extremely fast mons like Electrode, but it is still obnoxious as hell.
Drizzle Politoed + Swift Swim Luvdisc or freaking Mantine, I don't care what, isn't broken either. Yet you can't use it. There are 19 non-LC Swift Swimmers and at max 6 of them would ever have seen any use. And in reality, it really was just 3. Still, all of Swift Swim was prevented from being used with Drizzle. I don't see how that's any different from this.
If you ban just Assist + Whirlwind/Roar, divecats is allowed to continue as a noncompetitive troll strategy, which CAN win games, though it isn't great. And if you ban just Assist + Prankster, things like Persian can continue to exist, though severely neutered compared to Liepard. The issue at that point isn't really about how good the users are, though. The issue in the first place is that they are noncompetitive strategies that sap all the fun out of a match. For a desirable metagame, it's better to just simply ban Assist and avoid any potential stupid fallout. Hit the problem at the root blunt force.
Swift Swim + Drizzle was mainly brought up for the case of complex bans, but if you REALLY think that Drizzle + Swift Swim can be considered in the same manor as Assist Liepard, then you really might want to check up your old meta. Drizzle + Swift Swim was pushed because Rain was stupid strong even by itself, with that aspect pushing it over the edge. However, this is not an OU discussion.
Banning Assist + Whirlwind / Roar is actually a logical idea, but I didn't want to bring this up because it's not really broken. If you lose to Assist Persian with this strategy, then it's basically the same as being unprepared for any quick set up sweeper. Persian also has a much worse typing, which doesn't allow it to set up substitutes as easily. In addition, you add the viability of checks since there are now things (Scarfed users, Swift Swim users) that can outspeed.
There is absolutely zero evidence that the move Assist itself is the issue. As of now, the entire issue has been utilizing a high base speed Prankster user with a non-attacking move to have a high speed priority move that is basically impossible to check and can only be defeated by debilitating team building. If there is evidence that Assist is broken as an whole (SHOW that Persian is broken with this strategy as well, instead of theorymon-ing it), then sure, you can debate that Assist as a whole is broken. As of now, its main abuser, Liepard is the thing that is most broken with it. The fact that Purrloin is also extremely effective with it also shows that Assist + Prankster is highlighted as the most logical explanation to its effectiveness, which is why the most logical solution based on the evidence is to look as Assist + Prankster first.
Going the easy way out just to make a desirable metagame is not the point to suspect testing. The point is to find which part of a metagame is broken.
Name another use for Assist besides Whirlwind / Roar (/ Divecats) then. The argument against Assist as a whole is that it has no other use besides these uncompetitive teams.
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