Research Legends: Arceus Battle Mechanics Research

[EldritchEcho]

This could be completely random, but perhaps there’s a mechanic similar to how in older gens damage is effected by badges, but instead with the stars or lords?

 

[fujiko]

You can find it here.

I'm not the uploader of this video.

 

[sb879]

You can find it here.

I'm not the uploader of this video.

Nice find! For those who'd predictably having trouble watching a Japanese video, I think (I can't read Japanese) the formula they assert is:

Attack * 0.2 + Level * 3 + 20
------------------------------- * BP * stat modifier
Defense + 50

This seems to line up with my results, and usually when it doesn't it's because I think my ranges are incomplete - max/min should correspond to 1/.85 which my data is sometimes a bit shy of. This formula does not seem to use integer division as it's written here, though I suspect in reality the multiplicative factors are probably done before the division.

The one notable exception I'm seeing is with the Level 27 Staravia I found - this says the max damage Aerial Ace should deal to my 206 defense Yanmega is 70. My observed range was 54-62. While 62 might not be the highest value, 70 is still too high of a max value to correspond to min value 54. Granted, I could be missing something important from the video since I can't read Japanese.

 

[Blitz]

How does built-in Slow Start for Gigas work? In terms of duration, damage decrease, physical moves only, etc.

 

[Marty]

I've been resetting in front of the alpha Infernape for a few days, having my Gyarados take Giga Impacts while it came close to OHKOing Infernape with Aqua Tail. I would then catch it to check the Aqua Tail rolls. This part was mostly a waste of time since there were too many variables to juggle for reversing the damage formula, but now we know Pokemon with "Wild Might" have 1.5x offensive and defensive stats.

Infernape also knows Raging Fury, so I took a few of those hits with Dialga after exhausting its Close Combat PP. It was a huge pain to bait it to choose Raging Fury twice in a row, and then there's the accuracy issue even when it does...

Raging Fury from Level 65, Wild Might, 185 Attack Infernape against 345 Defense Dialga:

regular          72, 65, 71, 67, 70, 69, 74, 71
+1               112
+1 fixated       165
agile            45, 42, 47, 45
agile fixated    69, 66, 67

Unfortunately pretty sporadic results but even without the new damage formula it was clear the fixated status grants the user 1.5x damage for subsequent hits with the same move.


Anyway, the main reason I was resetting alpha Infernape was to get it to know Stealth Rock so I could test splinter damage. Turns out the 25 in the move data for the splinter attacks is a power value. The game does another damage calculation with the user and target, except with a 25-power version of whichever type the attack was. There's no critical hits or damage variance done here; splinter damage is always the max roll of a 25-power attack every turn.

Some numbers for Stealth Rock from Level 65, Wild Might, 185 Attack alpha Infernape:

VS 221 Defense Gyarados

regular
72
68
66
66
68
76
68
72
98 crit
70
68
68
66
110 crit
68
74
68
74
74
74
70
70
78

agile
58
52
58
50
50
52
56
52
52

splinters
48

VS 188 Defense Typhlosion

regular
88
76
84
80
80
78
86
80
82
76
86
88
86
78
86

agile
58
64
60
62
62
66
54
66

splinters
56

You'll notice the splinters damage in this case includes the Wild Might modifier to Attack! I wonder if I can use Calm Mind or something after the fact to increase or decrease this damage...

 

[AztecCroc]

Anyway, the main reason I was resetting alpha Infernape was to get it to know Stealth Rock so I could test splinter damage. Turns out the 25 in the move data for the splinter attacks is a power value. The game does another damage calculation with the user and target, except with a 25-power version of whichever type the attack was. There's no critical hits or damage variance done here; splinter damage is always the max roll of a 25-power attack every turn.

Some numbers for Stealth Rock from Level 65, Wild Might, 185 Attack alpha Infernape:

VS 221 Defense Gyarados

regular
72
68
66
66
68
76
68
72
98 crit
70
68
68
66
110 crit
68
74
68
74
74
74
70
70
78

agile
58
52
58
50
50
52
56
52
52

splinters
48

VS 188 Defense Typhlosion

regular
88
76
84
80
80
78
86
80
82
76
86
88
86
78
86

agile
58
64
60
62
62
66
54
66

splinters
56

You'll notice the splinters damage in this case includes the Wild Might modifier to Attack! I wonder if I can use Calm Mind or something after the fact to increase or decrease this damage...

So splinters is basically the gen 1 binding move mechanics mixed with the later gen ones?

 

[Lalaya]

How does built-in Slow Start for Gigas work? In terms of duration, damage decrease, physical moves only, etc.

also somewhat related, is the form change of Cherrim purely visual or does it get the Flower Gift boost? (since from GenV onward the ability gave BOTH the boosts and the form change)

 

[powergo1]

also somewhat related, is the form change of Cherrim purely visual or does it get the Flower Gift boost? (since from GenV onward the ability gave BOTH the boosts and the form change)

https://www.serebii.net/legendsarceus/updatedstats.shtml

According to serebii Sunshine Cherrim has new stats of 70/90/70/87/117/85 compared to 70/60/70/87/78/85 of normal Cherrim to make up for the fact that abilities don't exist in PLA

 

[Lalaya]

https://www.serebii.net/legendsarceus/updatedstats.shtml

According to serebii Sunshine Cherrim has new stats of 70/90/70/87/117/85 compared to 70/60/70/87/78/85 of normal Cherrim to make up for the fact that abilities don't exist in PLA

that's a fun way to do it
ty!

 

[Rarycaris]

Given that Spacial Rend has an undocumented mechanical change when used by Origin Palkia, is it possible to test whether the hidden speed modifier on Roar of Time is the same between standard Dialga and Origin Dialga?

 

[Germaniac]

Nice find! For those who'd predictably having trouble watching a Japanese video, I think (I can't read Japanese) the formula they assert is:

View attachment 406161

Attack * 0.2 + Level * 3 + 20
------------------------------- * BP * stat modifier
Defense + 50

This seems to line up with my results, and usually when it doesn't it's because I think my ranges are incomplete - max/min should correspond to 1/.85 which my data is sometimes a bit shy of. This formula does not seem to use integer division as it's written here, though I suspect in reality the multiplicative factors are probably done before the division.

The one notable exception I'm seeing is with the Level 27 Staravia I found - this says the max damage Aerial Ace should deal to my 206 defense Yanmega is 70. My observed range was 54-62. While 62 might not be the highest value, 70 is still too high of a max value to correspond to min value 54. Granted, I could be missing something important from the video since I can't read Japanese.

I can read Japanese, but with a very limited vocabulary. (I can look them up on a dictionary tho) And you're right, it's basically:

Other modifiers details:
Type effectiveness = Resistance 0.5x or 0.4x, Weakness 2x or 2.5x
STAB = 1.25x
Attack Up = 1.5x
Defense Up = ⅔x
Double Hit = 1.5x
Critical Hit = 1.5x

*Wild Alpha Pokemon have 1.5x Attack, Defense, Sp. Attack, Sp. Defense, and Speed thanks to Wild Might
*There's a 0.85-1 RNG adjustment

I'll try to watch the video later to try to see if anything is worth picking up.

 

[Marty]

Does anyone know if Agile has its own built-in Speed Mod value? It's weird that a lot of moves have the same ActionSpeedMod and AgileActionSpeedMod despite having less Base Power for the latter.

It seems flinch puts a delay on the opponent as much as the move's TargetActionSpeedMod, but I don't know if it actually works in-game. There's also StrongTargetActionSpeedMod but, unlike TargetActionSpeedMod, most of them aren't 0 for moves that have 0 flinch rate, so Strong probably has its own built-in flinch rate. That'd explain why most moves have a much higher StrongActionSpeedMod and ActionSpeedMod difference compared to AgileActionSpeedMod and ActionSpeedMod difference.

I’ve done a bunch of research, I haven’t found the exact way turn order is calculated, but from some playtesting I did discover a interesting detail. It seems that agile style moves actually lower the target’s turn order instead of raising yours. In a 3v1 against the same Pokémon all at the same level, using an agile move only changed the targeted pokemon’s turn. IE
Targeting Paras 1 Moved it’s turn after user’s next turn
Paras 2 and 3’s turns remained the same, still occurring before my next turn
Changing the target to Paras 2 moves it’s turn after my second turn
Paras 1 and 3 still move before my second turn

Re: these posts, turns out that what is listed as "StrongTargetActionSpeedMod" in the move data is in reality an action speed modifier to the target from agile style moves.
Sorry, this is entirely my bad; that's what I get for labeling these fields before playing the game.
It still doesn't make much sense conceptually that most agile style moves lower the target's action speed instead of raising the user's, but I guess this is a game balance choice for multiple opponents.

 

[Germaniac]

The guy just uploaded turn order mechanism.

 

[hearthebeard]

I can read Japanese, but with a very limited vocabulary. (I can look them up on a dictionary tho) And you're right, it's basically:

Damage = ((Attack * 0.2 + Attacker Level * 3 + 20) / (Defense + 50)) * Base Power * other modifiers

Other modifiers details:
Type effectiveness = Resistance 0.5x, Weakness 2x or 2.5x (does this mean 0.25x are now 0.5x?)
STAB = 1.25x
Attack Up = 1.5x
Defense Up = ⅔x
Double Hit = 1.5x
Critical Hit = 1.5x

*Boss enemies have 1.5x Attack thanks to Wild Power (I think I might've missed a mechanics term?)
*There's a 0.85-1 RNG adjustment

I'll try to watch the video later to try to see if anything is worth picking up.

Unless I am just mathematically illiterate, this means the defensive stat is a significantly larger factor in the damage calculation than the offensive stat, correct?

 

[OrdA]

Unless I am just mathematically illiterate, this means the defensive stat is a significantly larger factor in the damage calculation than the offensive stat, correct?

Factoring out the 0.2 makes it a bit easier to read. (might change rounding behavior)

Damage =       ((Attack * 0.2 + Attacker Level * 3 + 20) / (Defense + 50)) * Base Power * other modifiers
       = 0.2 * (Attack + Attacker Level * 15 + 100) / (Defense + 50) * Base Power * other modifiers

It's like each level gives a hidden +15 attack.

At level 0:
         0.2 * (Attack + 100) / (Defense + 50) * Base Power * other modifiers

At level 50:
         0.2 * (Attack + 850) / (Defense + 50) * Base Power * other modifiers

At level 100:
         0.2 * (Attack + 1600) / (Defense + 50) * Base Power * other modifiers

(I guess that does mean defensive pokemon have an advantage over frail ones, though how often you take turns also matters a lot. And defensive pokemon are often slow while frail ones are often fast.)

 

[Marty]

OrdA has the right idea; the "real" damage formula is what it looks like with the division by 5 placed at the end:

But because no flooring happens until after both divisions, you can just work one of them into the other fraction, which gives the same equation the Japanese community engineered:

So your actual offensive stat matters way less because it has a larger scalar tacked on than the defensive stat.

But yeah, obviously Speed is king in this game. That level 100 Weavile in the turn order video above swept Ingo's team in 30 turns with Ice Shard without Ingo's Pokemon having the chance to do anything. The player even spent three of those turns using Hopo Berries to restore Ice Shard PP. Absolutely busted.

 

[hearthebeard]

OrdA has the right idea; the "real" damage formula is what it looks like with the division by 5 placed at the end:
View attachment 406699

But because no flooring happens until after both divisions, you can just work one of them into the other fraction, which gives the same equation the Japanese community engineered:

View attachment 406700

So your actual offensive stat matters way less because it has a larger scalar tacked on than the defensive stat.

But yeah, obviously Speed is king in this game. That level 100 Weavile in the turn order video above swept Ingo's team in 30 turns with Ice Shard without Ingo's Pokemon having the chance to do anything. The player even spent three of those turns using Hopo Berries to restore Ice Shard PP. Absolutely busted.

Distributing it throughout the formula doesn't change how much it waters down the pokemon's individual stat. The idea that offensive stats are nerfed compared to mainline games understates the gravity of the change.

Here's the extent of what I'm trying to say:

At high levels, attack stat is basically irrelevant.

Lvl 100 max Sp.A Weedle (128 Sp.A) Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 100 max Sp.D Wyrdeer

77-90 damage min. 5HKO

Lvl 100 max Sp.A Weedle (128 Sp.A) Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 100 max Sp.D (292) Wyrdeer

85-101 damage min. 5HKO

Lvl 100 max Sp.A Alakazam (453 Sp.A) Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 100 max Sp.D (292) Wyrdeer

91-108 damage min. 5HKO

Lvl 100 max Sp.A Alakazam (453 Sp.A) Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 100 max Sp.D (292) Wyrdeer

102-120 damage min. 4HKO



Defense on the other hand changes significantly more:

Lvl 100 max Sp.A Alakazam (453 Sp.A) Hyper Beam vs. Lvl 100 min Sp.D (175) Wyrdeer

155-182 damage min. 3HKO


Assuming this formula is indeed accurate -

At high levels the only thing that matters is the BP of the move and your modifiers. Not your offensive stats. Speed and Defenses are the only relevant stats in PLA especially as you reach levels above like 30.

 

[Wizarus]

How much speed is necessary for it to matter though? Say if you fainted a pokemon, how much of a speed gap would be required to go first against the followup pokemon?

 

[Yung Dramps]

Oh my god please tell me this is true

 

[Marty]

View attachment 406743
Oh my god please tell me this is true

Lv 70 Regigigas 284 Attack Iron Head VS 205 Defense Rhydon

No Slow Start -> (150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178)

Slow Start -> (136, 138, 140, 142, 144, 144, 146, 148, 150, 152, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 162)

I got rolls of 142 and 158, so Slow Start is still halving Attack. But this is just another prime example of how pointless the attacking stat is in this game.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Lv 70 Regigigas 284 Attack Iron Head VS 205 Defense Rhydon

No Slow Start -> (150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178)

Slow Start -> (136, 138, 140, 142, 144, 144, 146, 148, 150, 152, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 162)

I got rolls of 142 and 158, so Slow Start is still halving Attack. But this is just another prime example of how pointless the attacking stat is in this game.

Wow is it really that bad? This does not seem like a halving in the slightest

 

[hearthebeard]

Wow is it really that bad? This does not seem like a halving in the slightest

Look a couple posts up. Weedle and Alakazam are basically the same power at Lvl 100.

 

[Xenol]

How does Power Shift interact with Regigigas and its "Slow Start"?

Does the defenses swap with halved attack or does it get the full 160 defense stat?

 

[Germaniac]

Re: these posts, turns out that what is listed as "StrongTargetActionSpeedMod" in the move data is in reality an action speed modifier to the target from agile style moves.
Sorry, this is entirely my bad; that's what I get for labeling these fields before playing the game.
It still doesn't make much sense conceptually that most agile style moves lower the target's action speed instead of raising the user's, but I guess this is a game balance choice for multiple opponents.

So, I assume TargetActionSpeedMod is an action speed modifier to the target from standard moves, right? What about Priority and Flinch? Do you know what exactly they're used for?

 

[FalcoLau]

So, I assume TargetActionSpeedMod is an action speed modifier to the target from standard moves, right? What about Priority and Flinch? Do you know what exactly they're used for?

Priority moves increase the user's Action Speed. In PLA we only have +1 Priority moves from the main series and they all have the base ActionSpeedMod of -4 (except Baby-Doll Eyes with -3 to match other Status moves that change only one stat). Wave Crash and Esper Wing are not coded with Priority so their mechanics might change in future main series.
Flinch moves from the main series decrease the target's Action Speed (i.e. same effect as Bulldoze) in PLA, plus moves that originally lower the target's Speed (Bubble, Icy Wind), Crush Grip (now with fixed 100 bp), Fairy Wind (so it's not a vanilla move anymore) and Triple Arrows (yeah that's the hidden effect of Hisuian Decidueye's signature move).
All moves that decrease the target's Action Speed (all with the TargetActionSpeedMod of 3) in PLA as shown in the graph: