League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??

[TheValkyries]

No, it just fucks up all of your calculations. Grading mages on a ten second scale was naive to begin with, and that's coming from a guy who has done these calculations for every character in the game (guess why I never posted them). Then there's the complexities of calculating for AoE damage, which all of Ryze's spells do (I think you forget that).

I don't forget that. I ignore it because the AoE will only ever matter if you can catch two targets in almost exactly the same spot (The AoE range is marginal, and spreading out makes it useless). Fun fact, Ryze has zero ability to actually keep two people in the same spot, which makes the AoE literally almost useless.

Further, I also mostly ignored the AoE damage that most of the champs I calced for are dealing. I showed it on Karthus because he deals an unholy amount of it, and I give examples in the some of the analysis paragraphs of how much more powerful they are if you add in the fact that their spells are AoE. So if you think that my calculations are fucked up because one can't hit skillshots all the time, maybe you should take the time and think that even still they're doing more realistic damage in team fights than Ryze is.

Yes. Rune Prison always hits the squishy enemy mage. Rune Prison always holds the off position AD carry still for the rest of your team to pounce on. And because you are tanky, you can dive in to do it, something only Swain can do with his CC (and good luck rooting that tumbling Vayne). Ahri and Veigar's CC are certainly strong in other ways, but you are crazy to think that a character with hard CC has no utility.

Not no utility. LESS Utility. Again, the point isn't that his Late Game is terrible. It's better than most of the other Mages that I didn't do calculations for, since I only calced out for champs I considered to have a stronger late game. The point is that he simply doesn't do as much damage as these champions, and doesn't have as much utility. Late game.

Is this discussion about the same Ryze that is the most dominant competitive AP prior to these changes

Is this real life

Dominant for different reasons. His midgame was the most powerful of any champion. Gets CDR, plus passive and how quickly one can stack mana over AP. Ryze got damage faster than any other Mage and could dish it out faster. My point is that in late game he stops being as dominant and other AP's start getting better.

I'd also like to point out that the majority of the community thought the Ryze changes to make him a Machine Gun DPS Mage made him the worst champion in the game. I don't find it uncommon that the majority of a gaming community can misunderstand and hold a false opinion on something.



I think I'm just gonna say GG here, because literally there is no possible argument that's left in favor of Ryze's late game beyond "easy to use", and guaranteed CC application. Neither of which make a champion inherently better than others (If it did, Annie would be seen more often than she has been).


EDIT:

? I thought it was pretty clear there - even with 40% cooldown and infinite energy, you're not firing 4x Qs, 3x Ws and 3x Es. Between cast times, the fact that you can't use two spells at the same time, and Lightning Rush's "you have to move in to damage your opponent", (and the whole skillshot thing, and the fact that he doesn't heal enough back with Spell Vamp to repeatedly take hits, etc, etc, etc), Kennen is losing too much time and is realistically not going to sit there and be a machine gun mage.

She's not getting 15. At best she gets like 8 or 9

Actually, Kennen can use all of his other spells while Lightning Rush is active, and there is no global cooldown stopping you from rolling your fingers across the keyboard. Kennen has 25% less Spell Vamp, yes, but on spells that are damaging multiple targets more reliably than Ryze's, as well as having half a second down time on a free 50 Armor and MR. So, actually Kennen can take shots for quite a while.

The only hindrance would be energy limit, which I didn't take into account, and I guess that would be a fair comparison, but he's still dealing more damage in a teamfight since 3 of his 4 spells can hit multiple targets.

Also, if you're only getting 8 or 9 off in ten seconds, you aren't playing her very well... or they're straight up just running away, and in terms of sticking power and chasing, Cassiopeia is better at it than old Ryze (Not so much anymore).

 

[iss]

Raw damage output is pretty useless as a statistic by itself. Certainly, it contributes to the strength of any champion, but there are so many more variables than simply pure damage.

 

[Jibaku]

Also, if you're only getting 8 or 9 off in ten seconds, you aren't playing her very well...

Okay maybe about at best 10 but there is like I said cast and animation time. Cass' E doesnt get a cooldown reset until the fangs hit the target. Cast time looks something like 0.2 secs (could be higher?) and cooldown is 0.5. Animation seems to be ~0.3 secs for a relatively close target (500 range maybe?) so that's about 1 Twin Fang per sec, completely discounting any other factors in the fight.

 

[pookar]

the screenshots that NEED to be posted to this thread

 

[Atlas]

pookar starving his teammates. uncool bro.

 

[iss]

The only thing that jumps out is that pookar LOL RODAN SUCKS

 

[vonFiedler]

Ryze has zero ability to actually keep two people in the same spot, which makes the AoE literally almost useless.

You are making it clear that you have never played or played against a Ryze. In every teamfight you are going to be hitting ~3 opponents (if you aren't, then you aren't activating his Ult because you don't need to), especially with your more negligible (but less now) E. It would behoove you not to make claims based off of lack of experience.

Not no utility. LESS Utility. Again, the point isn't that his Late Game is terrible. It's better than most of the other Mages that I didn't do calculations for, since I only calced out for champs I considered to have a stronger late game. The point is that he simply doesn't do as much damage as these champions, and doesn't have as much utility. Late game.

I never understood what your point is anyway. Leona is tankier than Ryze. Caitlyn has longer AA range, making her a better AD carry. I feel like I missed out on some shit slinging IRC debate here. You listed 2 champs who do significantly more damage than Ryze, even if your calculations were wrong. But you listed no champion tankier than Ryze, so do you just not understand the application of Tanky DPS? Or how it can be very good for a team? Or how it has been dominant for a year?

You keep backpedaling but you have yet to address my comments about how tankiness augments Ryze's utility in a way that none of the others can take advantage of. Let's compare Veigar for instance. Theoretically one of the best CCs in the game. Wide area stun. But in reality, Veigar running towards a group is an invitation to be jumped and destroyed. This reduces the applicability of such a CC to a balanced level, usually functioning against a single opponent in 1v1 or with some imprecision in a hectic teamfight. On the other hand I play Tank Veigar, and one of the 2 reasons Tank Veigar works is because I can use his CC with impunity. I initiate, stun who I want, stick around to use it twice per fight. Veigar's CC goes from balanced to broken, and Ryze's snare in the same way has more applicability than any CC on any champ you listed. This at least make his utility equal to the strong yet skillshot stuns of other mages.

I'd also like to point out that the majority of the community thought the Ryze changes to make him a Machine Gun DPS Mage made him the worst champion in the game. I don't find it uncommon that the majority of a gaming community can misunderstand and hold a false opinion on something.

Can't cancel a fallacy with another fallacy. You are comparing people's initial reactions to a change to people's feelings about a champ after a year where he's been at the top of the metagame. One of these opinions is more informed than the other (that and it took like 2 days for the first person to figure out how to play new Ryze).

I think I'm just gonna say GG here, because literally there is no possible argument that's left in favor of Ryze's late game beyond "easy to use", and guaranteed CC application. Neither of which make a champion inherently better than others (If it did, Annie would be seen more often than she has been).

Here's a possible argument you can be making. Instead of repeating yourself, answer me when I say that all of your calculations are absolutely wrong because only Ryze can both A. Land all of his spells B. Stand in harms way the whole ten seconds. And even the Ryze calculation gives a generous extra W! If you don't understand the altered applicability of single targets vs. skillshots, allow me to educate you.

Skillshots are good because they tend to have long range. You have to aim them so you can miss, but you can poke and deal damage from relative safety.

Single Target spells are good because they never ever ever ever fail unless you are retarded and click on a minion.

Remember when you said I shouldn't assume that Ryze will get fed? Cause that's a far better assumption than assuming that every skillshot will land. That's not the POINT of skillshots. Even missed pokes make it harder for the enemy team to position and initiate.

And that's why your calculations are fucked. There is no calculation that is fair to everyone. For most mages initial burst would be a better calculation (using spells until they all go on CD), but not for ALL of them. Some mages rely on AoE, how do you calculate that? What radius is more likely to affect 2 or 3 targets? How are you going to factor in the real combat application of spellvamp? For skillshots is it not fair to say that you can hit the opponent with a skillshot a few seconds before the duel begins, thus more damage?

 

[RODAN]

an unstoppable force

 

[skarm]

in this thread: pookars rough defeat of sgtshotgun01 and other horribly named people.

 

[Mr.E]

I dunno why so much time was taken arguing this crap but my main reason for nay-saying TheValkyries on IRC was mostly that he was arguing Ryze falls off late-game because he doesn't have a "Deathcap" to scale his damage late. Compare it to a situation where Deathcap doesn't have its +30% AP passive and every regular AP item just has 30% more: WotA / RoA / Rylai's provides 104 AP, Zhonya's provides 130 AP, etc. There's no "scaling" but the end numbers are exactly the same as they were before. Boom, disproven. I never cared about the actual numbers, it was the stupid Deathcap statement that got me. "Falling off late" isn't the same thing as "reaches late-game sooner than everyone else" anyway, as far as buying and building his Tear is concerned.

That said, the fundamental difference between Ryze's typical build and the average mage -- e.g. Tear / FHeart / Veil vs. Rod (Rylai's) / Zhonya's / Abyssal -- isn't the tankiness. However, Ryze does output more DPS than basically every mage except Cass/Karthus with zero asterisks beside his theoretical values; you can't miss with targetted spells and he doesn't have an extreme-cost channels that can run many of his comparators out of mana mid-fight (Anivia, Swain, Karthus, Kog'maw). Ryze also helpfully provides that lovely Frozen Heart debuff to the enemy team.

And new Ryze is flat-out more damaging than old Ryze at all stages of the game using the exact same build as before playing exactly like he did before. Basic math fools, this was obvious even before the patch was live. Nothing changed except he lost 25 range on Q and a cool movespeed thing on his ult. Rod of Ages was already a viable option, remember it grants the third most health and second most mana of every item in the game... even before charging. ;/ (A couple more items overtake it in base health.) Even against enemies with enough MR to make Void Staff a worthwhile purchase, you know where the penetration adds more damage than an extra 700 mana, one could still argue for RoA on the basis of the extra tankiness it provides. The piddly AP ratio buff on his Overload doesn't suddenly make it super awesome or any more must-have, it only makes it a very marginally more attractive 5th-6th item. You can build it earlier so it has time to build up, of course, but you still shouldn't finish it before his core. (Core is Boots2, FH, Catalyst-Negatron, Revolver. Your Catalyst can then build into RoA if it doesn't yet look like you'll have to build Void Staff and Veil can be finished later.)

In other news, everyone should probably stay away from ranked until Riot fixes this bitch-ass exploit that lets you use third-party programs to put extra points into scaling masteries or you're liable to lose free Elo to some fuckstick spamming Heal with impunity to push your nexus down in five minutes or instantly farm the entire map all day until he gets bored and wins.

 

[shinyskarmory]

That's actually hilarious.

ALWAYS FLASH NEVER DIE HUEHUEHUE

 

[Ampharos]

Better yet spam teleport.

ULTIMATE GANKING MACHINE

 

[Jibaku]

spam smite keep lane pushed + kill baron + 10 gold whenever you use it.

 

[pookar]

that fucking 54 minute heart of gold rammus

 

[RODAN]

infinite promote

 

[iss]

if you keep flashing can you avoid a minion attack?????

seriously those attacks are ridiculously good at always hitting

 

[Ampharos]

Infinite clarity.

so i heard you like never running oom?

 

[Cathadora]

I love jungle alistar i have nothing further to contribute towards this thread

 

[iss]

as an ap mid, i hate you and your w-q

 

[Mr.E]

dey fixed teh b0rk alr3dy

 

[Stagnant]

Really guys? Infinite Heal.. hopefully that built in diminishing return dont stack

 

[skarm]

The question is which team will scrim HODOR Gaming?

 

[gene]

hodor gaming now recruiting at http://www.hodorgaming.com/apply/

 

[Tortferngatr]

WOOT LEVEL 30

Also, Tank Fiddle is officially awesome on Dominion.

 

[jumpluff]

I love jungle alistar i have nothing further to contribute towards this thread

I had a jungle Alistar on my team this morning :) It wasn't that anybody was losing their lane, but his sick ganks pretty much cemented the win for all of them. I can attribute that heavily to player skill, I guess, but I was definitely able to witness the strength of his ganks.

(Also, I've watched some of the games in which you guys have fielded jungle Ali.)