LCPL 5 Discussion

[Heysup]

Heysup

I really disagree with you on this. School is very time consuming, it's why I went from always being on Showdown during high school to maybe on sometime during the weekends. I'm definitely not alone in this; Rowan dropped being TL for similar reasons. Sure, some people don't play just because they're lazy and don't feel like building until the end of the week, but it makes me really irked that you say that school/work are bullshit reasons. Sorry that I'm trying to get two degrees, maintain a high GPA, all the while maintain involvement on campus in order to make myself more appealing for graduate schools later on. This is not a bullshit disguise for a lack of interest and/or laziness, I genuinely do not have time, and others I know for sure are definitely in the same boat. To quote you yourself, "speak for your mothafuckin sel[f]", and fuck off just because you in your "busy" schedule have time to build, test, and whatever during the week enough for three teams.

I fail to see how those things can't be attributed at least in part to lack of interest or, if you would prefer, "a superior interest in other things over this". I didn't want this to turn into an "I'm objectively busier than all of you because I'm a law student" so I didn't say that so I'm not sure why you brought up what you're doing in school specifically. I don't think that's going to be a very fun, fruitful, or pleasant discussion.

What I did say is that I'm at the very least in the same boat and yet I somehow still find time to play uupl, nupl, lcpl, adv cup, dpp cup, powc because they really do not take a long time to prepare for at all (#speakingformyself). I think it's kind of insulting to everyone's intelligence to say that it's just because you are busier than everyone else you can't tag on some time to build another 2 teams per week (at most) and 30 take minutes (at most) to play two extra games. To put it in your perspective: If you 'had time to "get two degrees, maintain a high GPA, all the while maintain involvement on campus", play 1 DPP game per week, and post about how you don't have time to play another two games' do you not think you would also: 'had time to "get two degrees, maintain a high GPA, all the while maintain involvement on campus", and play 3 DPP lc games per week'.

It kind of sounds like you're taking my post out of context and saying it applies to "generally playing pokemon" rather than increasing the games you're playing by a whopping 2.

I honestly do almost all of my prep / forum posting while shitting (#tmi) or eating (sometimes at the same time but don't tell anyone). Or I just do it when school is slow and I will not have time to build later (ie. rn when I should be studying instead of posting about this rip)

I'm sticking to my argument that if you have time to play/build one DPP game per week I don't believe that fits magically on anyone's "last marginal minute you can spend on an extracurricular activity".

 

[macle]

last lcpl finals went on for 2 fucking months because of 1 dp match. At first, I wanted dp to be bo3 but the history of johning and not getting battles finished in lcpl is making me think that its just gonna be unfinished matches every week.

 

[Heysup]

last lcpl finals went on for 2 fucking months because of 1 dp match. At first, I wanted dp to be bo3 but the history of johning and not getting battles finished in lcpl is making me think that its just gonna be unfinished matches every week.

So enforce the deadline. That was entirely due to a lack of deadline enforcement and you know it. If SPL's deciding game can be a forced substitution of someone who's never played the tier, then why can't LCPL's?

I mean all of the matches during the weeks were completed, were they not? Do you really think it's just a coincidence that the one time the deadline was not enforced, that people johned for as long as they could?

 

[mad0ka]

I fail to see how those things can't be attributed at least in part to lack of interest or, if you would prefer, "a superior interest in other things over this". I didn't want this to turn into an "I'm objectively busier than all of you because I'm a law student" so I didn't say that so I'm not sure why you brought up what you're doing in school specifically. I don't think that's going to be a very fun, fruitful, or pleasant discussion.

What I did say is that I'm at the very least in the same boat and yet I somehow still find time to play uupl, nupl, lcpl, adv cup, dpp cup, powc because they really do not take a long time to prepare for at all (#speakingformyself). I think it's kind of insulting to everyone's intelligence to say that it's just because you are busier than everyone else you can't tag on some time to build another 2 teams per week (at most) and 30 take minutes (at most) to play two extra games. To put it in your perspective: If you 'had time to "get two degrees, maintain a high GPA, all the while maintain involvement on campus", play 1 DPP game per week, and post about how you don't have time to play another two games' do you not think you would also: 'had time to "get two degrees, maintain a high GPA, all the while maintain involvement on campus", and play 3 DPP lc games per week'.

It kind of sounds like you're taking my post out of context and saying it applies to "generally playing pokemon" rather than increasing the games you're playing by a whopping 2.

I honestly do almost all of my prep / forum posting while shitting (#tmi) or eating (sometimes at the same time but don't tell anyone). Or I just do it when school is slow and I will not have time to build later (ie. rn when I should be studying instead of posting about this rip)

I'm sticking to my argument that if you have time to play/build one DPP game per week I don't believe that fits magically on anyone's "last marginal minute you can spend on an extracurricular activity".

You can be a law student and still have free time during the week, that wasn't my point. I'm saying that everyone has different schedule's and it's not fair to force everyone to make, prepare, and test three teams, because everyone has different schedules. I was citing mine because you were literally attacking me, lol.

Though, what I'm not sure of, are your odd jumps of logic, such as equating the time to write this post to making and testing two teams. You imply that building an additional 2 teams per week doesn't take much time, which, while on its own is true, there also is a big amount of time that goes into testing those teams, which you're understating a lot. If we want to make the games as high level as possible, then by adding additional ones you take away prep time and get poorer quality matches as well.

Good for you that you can get mons work done while you're doing whatever, and good for you that you can somehow make teams in the 4 minutes at most it takes to go to the bathroom. However, I'm sure most of us would rather not take away time from eating with friends/coworkers to work on building & testing teams so that a few people can watch a few more battles on a website, and that we can't several quality teams in just a few minutes. Agree with your opponent to have a BO3 with you, sure, but don't mandate everyone do it.

sidenote: I have no idea what you're even trying to say with your third or last lines so I'm just ignoring them.

 

[Heysup]

sidenote: I have no idea what you're even trying to say with your third or last lines so I'm just ignoring them.

I think it's clear we disagree on how long it takes to build a DPP team. I think you're failing to consider that there's no team reveal in DPP. Changing up a few Pokemon makes a team nearly unrecognizable. In LC in particular, you can swap around Life Orb and Choice Scarf on certain Pokemon and have an entirely different feel. It's not like ORAS when you can be like "oh that's Heysup's SPL team week 1 with a Vullaby instead of an Aipom" or "that's Heysup's tailwind team with a X and Y added". If I use a Chimchar lead week 1, and a kabuto lead week 2, you have basically no clue what my team is. Shit, if I use a Chimchar week 1 and a Chimchar week 2 you still don't.

And by marginal minute of spending on extracurricular activity I mean the number of time you can spend on an activity after the last one you spent.....So what I'm saying is that I don't believe that people's time limit for being able to spend time on something like LCPL magically lines up within the relatively short time difference between preparing for a bo1 and a bo3 in DPP. In simpler terms, I don't think if you can spend, generously, 2 hours on prepping a DPP team that the number in which is "too much for you to be spending time on it" is somewhere in between that 2 hours and the amount of time it takes you to tack 2 more teams onto it. It's too small of a marginal difference for that argument to have any realistic plausibility.

While we don't agree in philosophy of how busy people are in our current society, I'm sure you can at least see where I'm coming from with these two points.

 

[mad0ka]

text

Yeah I do. However, I just don't see the point in making DPP a BO3 in general. To me, it adds unneeded time constraints (even if they may not apply to everyone/are not that huge), for no point other than making the games more competitive as it reduces overall luck. But, then if we do this for DPP, then the same should apply to other tiers, since other tiers have luck elements in them as well--that's where the time constraint really becomes an issue.

 

[infamy]

Yeah I do. However, I just don't see the point in making DPP a BO3 in general. To me, it adds unneeded time constraints (even if they may not apply to everyone/are not that huge), for no point other than making the games more competitive as it reduces overall luck. But, then if we do this for DPP, then the same should apply to other tiers, since other tiers have luck elements in them as well--that's where the time constraint really becomes an issue.

dpp literally is a hyperoffense metagame. games take five minutes. if you cant find fifteen minutes to half an hour in your week for pokemon battles, you shouldnt sign up.

dpp has a greater reliance on matchups imo, which means bo3s would give the better player an advantage as opposed to the player who brought the team with a better matchup.

dpp also is super offensive. this means that the number of turns in a game is usually a lot less than that of oras or bw. what that means is that if somebody does get lucked, it usually has a much greater impact on the game than in more modern metagames. having bo3s would minimize the impact of luck on the outcome- dpp is much more luck-sensitive than oras.

when you want to solve a problem, there are three things you need to look at for the solutions:

1. how effectively the problem is solved
2. how practical it is to implement the solution
3. how much of an impact it has on strategies unrelated to the problem

now, lets look at how bo3s in dpp solve the problem of being excessively luck-sensitive:

1. luck is not outright abolished, but the threshold for luck to significantly impact the outcome is much higher.
2. adding bo3s for dpp would be easy to implement. making players take thirty minutes tops per week (and you dont even have to play all the matches at the same time!) isnt a lot to ask.
3. it has no impact on strategies outside of luck-based strategies like machop twave spam.

:)

 

[mad0ka]

:)

Except there's more than just 15 to 30 minutes because of prep time? If you don't prep at all and just go straight into battles, maybe you shouldn't sign up! :)
Also, I can just as well argue that there's less of a matchup element in DPP because of no team preview. Sure with leads it can be a bit of a rock paper scissors, but because not all 6 of your mons are revealed, you can play around something hiding in the back to sweep late game. Also, your opponent won't know if they have a good team matchup either/what checks you may or may not have to something by nature of no team preview as well.
Lastly, DPP is not more luck sensitive. At all. Yes, the meta is much more HO in nature, but that's what makes it less luck sensitive. It's primarily revenge kill based, so you don't have as many situations where there are game changing crits/burns/freezes/paras. But, Machop is a thing in DPP and I will give you that point.

 

[infamy]

Except there's more than just 15 to 30 minutes because of prep time? If you don't prep at all and just go straight into battles, maybe you shouldn't sign up! :)
Also, I can just as well argue that there's less of a matchup element in DPP because of no team preview. Sure with leads it can be a bit of a rock paper scissors, but because not all 6 of your mons are revealed, you can play around something hiding in the back to sweep late game. Also, your opponent won't know if they have a good team matchup either/what checks you may or may not have to something by nature of no team preview as well.
Lastly, DPP is not more luck sensitive. At all. Yes, the meta is much more HO in nature, but that's what makes it less luck sensitive. It's primarily revenge kill based, so you don't have as many situations where there are game changing crits/burns/freezes/paras. But, Machop is a thing in DPP and I will give you that point.

its fairly hard to prepare for dpp in this day and age. how many dpp replays can you find of your opponent? not a lot. plus, by having bo3s, you actually reduce the prep time. when there are more battles, theres a greater likelihood that players will bring teams of different sorts, which means that its harder to counterteam them.

just because your opponent doesnt know about how good/bad their matchup is doesnt mean its nonexistent. if you have a favorable lead matchup, which is based essentially on just randomly picking one of your good teams, you can immediately turn the game in your favor. even if they have a mon that 6-0s you and they dont realize that, that mon will still be able to be effective, and if you dont give them an opportunity to set up, thats simply good play on your part.

dpp is more luck sensitive imo but i cant be bothered to write this up because i have to do homework. later frens. :)

 

[Heysup]

I mostly agree with mad0ka on those above points even if they are adverse to my interest in getting DPP as a bo3. But as I stated earlier, I think the matchup/hax arguments are actually weak arguments for a bo3, but those aren't my arguments.

My argument is pretty simple: DPP teams generally take less prep time than other tiers because of no team reveal (it's easier to tweak teams and have them almost equally usable the next weeks) AND the amount of time you spend preparing is reflected in a very short game where you do not even have time to fully experience the tier.

The one thing I do agree with Infamy about is that if you do not have time to prepare or play 2 extra games I don't think you would have time to play or prepare one in the first place. I don't think DPP teams take nearly as long to prepare. You can take my word for this or not.

 

[mad0ka]

Isolated, I don't have a problem with DPP being a BO3 because yeah it takes less time than other tiers to prep for, and you also don't need to scout as much because it's near impossible to find replays. But, in a team tour I'm just not sold on how the reasons for DPP being BO3 shouldn't also be applied to other tiers, where there is more prep time to make teams.

 

[tcr]

honestly as a college student myself taking around 16 credit hours, its so easy to find time to build and play and just idle on my computer. I mean I guess you can argue that if you're involved with a shitton of groups to the point of "trying to get into graduate school" then yeah maybe you won't have time (I for one just have a small group of friends i chill with and a parkour club on the weekends, so its not like all my time is taken up irl). However, if you honestly only have enough time to prepare 1 team and battle 1 game in an entire week, then you straight up just shouldn't be in LCPL, or any team related tournament. I guess if all you can do is make one team you just fuck over your other teammates on the basis that "you can't help them with testing / building / theorycrafting" because you have too much hw and too much clubs / sororities / fraternaties to do that, you only have time for 1 game, 1 team, 1 week.

like yeah ppl might have busy schedules but i think you're exaggerating a little for the amount of time it takes to make dpp / bw / oras teams. Half the time in DPP if you really don't have time to build something unique you can just slap a gastly / munchlax / gligar on the same squad and be perfectly ok. In BW you can just run double rush sand, or a simple scraggy balance team with like, a regen core and be perfectly ok. And there's soo many oras cores that you can just run if you really don't have the time to make teams (on top of the fact that you can just use a team that you used in the past, klike you can't tell me that as soon as they see one team ppl would immediately remember it and know every single one of your sets).

lastly, I again would call for bo3s for every tier. More pokemon is just better for most ppl since 1) it gets rid of random unfortunate hax that would otherwise have been a completely different game, 2) it can really seperate the "good tournament players" from the "good lc players." Like cased / fooly / shake / etc are cool and all but if they actually don't play lc and just manage to straight up outplay their opponent then their opponent has a better time actually winning the bo3 since they are more likely to have a far better knowledge of the tier. Lastly, its just so much better for spectators or people who really enjoy the team tournaments since they both get to play and see more pokemon games in their favorite tier. like who doesn't want that? who cares if we haven't done it in the past lol, that's such a dumb excuse. jac's overpayed on ok players for the past 2 lcpls iirc but if he doesn't this lcpl that doesn't suddenly make the concept awful. Or even better, suspecting diglett once doesn't mean that suspecting diglett a second time means that its a fucking godawful idea.

tl;dr stop glorifying the amount of "time" people have. high school students and most college students have soooo much free time, and even if you are in high school and working from 4 to 11 pm every single week day then you have the weekend, and if you don't have that then honestly you just shouldn't sign up and be a burden to your teammates

 

[tehy]

maybe the people in question should state how long it takes them to make a good team on average

 

[Star]

maybe the people in question should state how long it takes them to make a good team on average

as long as it takes to get in contact with zf or levi

 

[Krubby]

For what it's worth, I'd prefer ORAS LC to be Bo1. It makes things more dynamic and exciting and makes counter-teaming more difficult, at cost of hax being more influential

 

[macle]

im buying tahu wether he likes it or not

 

[OP]

I don't get why DPP players have to put three times the effort into scouting, building, and testing just because their games take less time? Everything else is applicable to the other tiers and I would really dislike bo3 everything.

 

[Raseri]

no bo3 in dpp please. its an offensive tier but the better player still wins most of the time.

 

[atomicllamas]

I used 2 BW teams total last LCPL so lets do bo1 cause I'm building maximum two more this LCPL lel

 

[Heysup]

1) can we please stop posting about bo3ing for everything. It is seriously derailing the legitimate proposition of DPP being bo3. Even if that is also a legitimate proposition, it's off topic.

2) OP Raseri the anti bo3 for DPP camp needs to start addressing the fact that DPP differs in:
A) prep time and
B) playing time

And stop mentioning hax or good player winning etc. I don't think anyone being reasonable about this issue is complaining that it's hax or some other shit that applies the same or more to other tiers - it's solely the fact that DPP players need to prep less and get to play less. It makes no sense to me not to even it out by making it a bo3.

Tell me HONESTLY OP, did you need to prep for your 3 games of the DPP tournaments or your ORAS Tournament games more? And if you're about to say "ya well yknow I just stole teams" then really think about that: no one noticed and you got to the finals. That may be anecdotal, but it's not just you. I literally reused the same teams every round in different order and in finals I dug out some older ones. It's really hard to tell in DPP if you are using another team or altering a current one.

 

[Camden]

I really don't see an issue with Bo3 DPP. Teams aren't that difficult to make and the games are usually really short in comparison to the others because of how volatile the meta is. I really don't mind slapping together 3 DPP teams a week (and this is coming from someone that isn't that great at building).

 

[gali]

We are proud to announce that LCPL has a new official sponsor!

The tournament will now be officially known as the Little Cup Premier League presented by the Frog Blog.

You can view the Frog Blog at https://gonefroggin.wordpress.com/

 

[Star]

We are proud to announce that LCPL has a new official sponsor!

The tournament will now be officially known as the Little Cup Premier League presented by the Frog Blog.

You can view the Frog Blog at https://gonefroggin.wordpress.com/

holy shit you suck at this

 

[gali]

Hey, at least that post had more substance than a one-liner ripping on another user!

But you raise a good point. We need Shrug to start posting itt

 

[infamy]

Hey, at least that post had more substance than a one-liner ripping on another user!

But you raise a good point. We need Shrug to start posting itt

well you are the expert at ripping things
seeing as you ripped my team and passed it off as your own