Landorus (GP 2/2)

[ginganinja]

QC have had a discussion. Its late, but personally, we are stuggling to find pokemon that Special lures in and beats, which Gravity doesn't already handle. It really seems limited to Hippowdon, and Bulk Up Breloom, Unless we find more, I really don't see Special getting a set.

 

[jc104]

I know I was actually there during that conversation, but there are a couple of things I didn't mention. Special Landorus is simply more powerful outside Sand, which sounds like enough of a reason on its own. Also, it gets recoil-free LO.

However, ginganinja is basically right that you don't KO much more. HP Ice from Gravity has a chance to OHKO Tech Breloom, it has a chance to OHKO Keldeo with EQ, and does a ton to virizion with EQ too (Virizion survives Psychic). Slowbro could be added to that list though.

 

[Ojama]

Smack Down over Stone Edge on the Ebelt set .........................

 

[jc104]

Smack Down is barely making it into OO. Gravity is so much more effective in every way, except that it can't double up badly as a coverage move.

Also, if Smack Down is used the opponent will immediately know you're not scarfed.

 

[PK Gaming]

So I gave special Landorus the benefit of the doubt and did some testing. It's actually not completely terrible. Disregarding the whole bit about luring out conventional Landorus checks, special Landorus is a good Pokemon in its own right. Not the greatest set (it definitely pales in comparison to his other great sets) but if you consider things like special Landorus being stronger outside of sand, and its coverage moves being stronger than average(Psychic is 2HKOing 0 HP Rotom, and Focus Blast rips a chunk of Skarmory's Health), and no recoil on your best moves, then you'll realize that a special Landorus isn't as bad as it looks on paper. It's not greatest set, but it's not the worst set eithe, so I'm fine with it staying.

Also, gravity the 3rd set, it's amazing and much better than substitute.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

For sets like Gravity and Swords Dance, shouldn't the moves that make the name of the set be the first move on the set since that is what the set is about? (Example: The order for the Gravity set would make more since as Gravity>Earthquake>Stone Edge>HP Ice/U-turn)

 

[Ojama]

Smack Down is barely making it into OO. Gravity is so much more effective in every way, except that it can't double up badly as a coverage move.

Also, if Smack Down is used the opponent will immediately know you're not scarfed.

And ? Are we talking about the ebelt set or the gravity one ? So since gravity is more effective, using smack down on the ebelt set (ebelt is especially used for smackdown if you guys didnt know it) isnt usefull ? Hmmm.

Whats the problem if your opponent immediately knows you're not scarfed ? Well, I think you didnt get the goal of this set.
Ebelt Landorus is a stallbreaker, this is why we use smackdown on it. You can easily destroy skarmory bronzong rotom-w on the switch. Ebelt Landorus@Smack Down is probably one of the most effective stallbreakers in the game. Trust me, because you guys all know im a defensive player, and i can tell you that building a team which isnt weak to ebelt landorus is really tough. If you're running stone edge, what can you do against Skarmory ? Nothing.

This set is also used to feint your opponent you're scarfed but this is absolutely not the first goal of this set.

Dont even slash stone edge with smack down. Delete stone edge and add smackdown instead of it.

Last thing : you really think that you could feint the scarf during the whole game ? Lol. We immediately know when its scarfed or not unless your opponent is dumb.

 

[iDunno]

Gravity is better than Smackdown in pretty much every way except for that Smackdown can't be taunted. Regarding slashing gravity onto the Expert Belt set, Gravity already has it's own set so having Gravity on the expert belt is not only redundant, but it is also less effective than using the set that is specialized for gravity.

 

[Pocket]

[Overview]
~ Possibly worth mentioning that Landorus now shares this unique speed tier with Thundurus-T

[Choice Scarf]
~ you can elaborate that Rotom-W's a good partner, because it's a great answer to many of Landorus's switch-ins (like Skarmory, Forretress, and Gliscor). It can also switch into Water- and Ice-type moves.
~ you can elaborate that Scizor / Tornadus-T are also answers to Grass-types / Latias that may undermine Landorus and Rotom-W's Volt-Turn.
~ although Scarf Landorus's main role is being a revenge killer, mention that it also doubles up as a late-game Sweeper, since it has enough killing power through Sand Force boosts.

[Gravity]
~ Don't forget to mention Gliscor, Landorus-T, and physically defensive Hippowdon as targets for HP Ice, too.
~ Warn readers to make there teams Gravity-proof, since the move effects both sides; they basically should not solely rely on levitators / Flying-types to sponge EQs - they should pack a Grass-type of their own.
~ Specify that Gravity may provide an extra turn to set up Swords Dance / Rock Polish / Substitute, as conventional switch-ins to Landorus are forced out.

[Special]
~ You can compare it to Nidoking - although Nidoking has more versatile moves, Landorus overcomes this shortcoming with raw power (base 115 SpA vs Nidoking's 85). To illustrate, Landorus easily 2HKOs specially defensive TTar.

Focus Blast against a physically defensive Blissey: 43-51%
Focus Blast against a calm 4 HP / 252+ SDef Blissey: 36-42%
Focus Blast against a physically defensive Chansey: 36-43%

~ Calm Mind is worth an AC mention. It provides Landorus the ability to overcome special walls, like Chansey / Blissey. Not necessary for offensive teams, but will certainly come in handy against more defensive teams.
~ Elaborate how Gravity is cool to let Landorus hit levitating / Flying-types with Earth Power and to make Focus Blast super accurate.
~ Mention that these set-up options other than Gravity hinders Landorus's coverage, however.
~ Just like any offensive mon, this Landorus would enjoy entry hazards to seal the kill on more bulky mons. This is especially crucial since this Landorus has no means to boost its offense other than Calm Mind.
~ Latias / Latios easily walls Special Landorus, so a Pokemon that can handle these threats are desired, such as Jirachi, Scizor, or Tyranitar.
~ Gengar can also come in Earth Power / Focus Blast and rip away at Landorus. Same checks to Latias / Latios can be applied to Genger.
~ Pokemon that can take care of defensive Water-types would also be a good partner for this Landorus, such as Celebi and Latias.

[Swords Dance]
~ Unlike the other physical sets, this set can muscle through physical walls, thanks to the attack boost from Swords Dance
~ Unlike the Gravity set, it lures and softens up physical walls like Skarmory, Latias, and Celebi.
~ Other physical sweepers that can take advantage of weakened physical walls, such as Haxorus, Scizor, Lucario, Breloom, and Terrakion are ideal partners.
~ Mention of Magnezone is probably not necessary
~ Superpower is an option to hit Bronzong and Air Balloon Heatran

[Checks & Counters]
~ Gengar is a pretty decent offensive check to Landorus, taking pittance from U-turn and nothing from Earthquake
~ Physically defensive Latias can shrug off Landorus's unstabbed U-turns and set Reflect
~ Specify Breloom as ones with Poison Heal and a defensive spread
~ Include Ice Shard and Scizor's Bullet Punch for revenge killers

 

[jc104]

Thanks Pocket. Remember that this is just a skeleton and not an analysis. Also, lots of those things are in the old analysis and I couldn't be bothered to copy them.

I agree with nearly everything you said except:

- Scarf Landorus is a pretty terrible late game sweeper. I can probably count the number of late game scarf landorus sweeps I've seen on my fingers, and they probably involved hitting an unlikely number of times with Stone Edge. Too many things are immune to EQ. It's that simple.

-Focus Blast becomes somewhat redundant after Gravity, even if it is accurate.

-Latios does not "easily" wall special landorus since it takes up to 2/3 from HP Ice.

edit: just wanted to say that there is a very small chance that I won't have internet for the next week, starting pretty much now. If that is the case, I'll be writing up Kyurem and Ditto, and may also write some of the less controversial landorus sets. All the analayses should still be completed in good time.

edit2: all ok!

 

[dice]

Ojama, you're acting like I used to with your haughty attitude and annoying tone. Get the fuck off your high horse, please.

Anyways, I really do not see what Smack Down has over Gravity bar hitting Volcarona, which Earthquake already smacks. It reveals that you are not choiced--a key part of the set, and it just seems.. Meh.

 

[Ojama]

I will ignore what Princess Bri just said about me because I dont want to start another shitstorm and then receive an underserved warning by the great moderator who is SDS.

You guys would like to know the reaction of the best BW OU players when I showed them what Jc104 said about EBelt Landorus ? 'ROFL'

I dont want to repeat what i already said above. We're talking about the Ebelt set and not the gravity one. The difference between those sets is pretty easy : one has Uturn. You have Uturn on the ebelt, not the on the gravity one. Gravity only works during 5 turns so you have to make the right choices. Smackdown is used to break stall teams so that means if you're facing a stall, you'll be faster than the the whole team or almost. In addition, there arent a lot of ground immunity in a stall team (skarm gliscor latios bronzong dragonite...) so that means when you use smack down on skarm for example, the whole team will be exposed (does that word exist ?) to an earthquake. Last thing, uturn allows you to keep the momentum, what the gravity set doesnt do. With Stone Edge you'll be totally walled by skarm bronzong etc.

Now please, stop talking about the gravitiy set (which is a good set) when im talking about smackdown on the ebelt set.

EDIT : i just thought about something : what about using uturn over stone edge on the gravity set. With gravity you can hit gyara nite tornadus gengar etc so stone edge is kinda useless. In addition, earthquake has a 150 bpower and a 225 bpower in sand so thats stronger than stone edge. You already hit dnite with hp ice and eq is more powerfull than stone edge in sand so uturn sounds good. You're also no longer walled by celebi.

 

[jc104]

Even though Ojama's numbers are all wrong in that bit he edited in, he may have something of a point there. I'm considering slashing U-turn with Stone Edge instead of HP ice. The main concern is a lack of coverage outside of gravity, since I would not typically look to set up gravity every time I brought landorus in.

edit: Sand force is a 1.3x boost. Also, although EQ is obviously stronger that neutral Stone Edge, it's weaker than a super effective Stone Edge (195 BP in sand as opposed to 260.) The last bit doesn't follow at all.

 

[Ojama]

Earthquake is stabed with Landorus so 100 x 1.5 = 150. In sand 150 x 1.5 = 225. Maybe im wrong.

Thats why we use smack down on the ebelt set jc104 (in response to your last sentence)

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Earthquake is stabed with Landorus so 100 x 1.5 = 150. In sand 150 x 1.5 = 225. Maybe im wrong.

Thats why we use smack down on the ebelt set jc104 (in response to your last sentence)

Sand Force is a 1.3x bonus, not a 1.5x bonus. This means it is 195 BP, not 220. Stone Edge is ALSO boosted by Sand Force (Sand Force boosts Rock, Steel and Ground moves), meaning it has 100*1.3 = 130 BP. Whether you use Smack Down and then Earthquake or you just Stone Edge twice on neutral targets, its the exact same power. If you use a Super-effective Stone Edge twice, its 520 BP, but if you use a Super Effective Smack down then Earthquake, its a much weaker 325 BP. (This also exculdes the item boost from Expert Belt)

Unless you have a large fear of Skarmory (which is reasonable)/Bronzong (which is getting more and more uncommon), Stone Edge looks like a winner to me. Even then, if you hate those guys that much, the Gravity set may work better for that specific role. Skarmory isn't very hard to deal with if you have stuff like Magnezone, and Bronzong isn't common enough to fear.

Smack Down seems good in additional comments or something, but I would like the immediate power provided by Stone Edge more. Smack Down is also a lot more detrimental when a Pokemon can switch into an Earthquake (There are a lot of Earthquake immune Pokemon in OU and a lot of things also have balloons), but not Stone Edge, since after a Smack Down it isn't hard to switch out. For example, Latios cannot do much when Stone Edge 2HKOs it, but if something is Smacked Down, Latios know that Landorus will will Earthquake, letting it switch in for free.

EDIT: Ninja'd by jc104's edit, but yeah.

 

[Ojama]

Oops, thought it was 1.5 sorry about that.

But i disagree with the rest of your post. Stone edge does 30% MAX to skarmory. Magnezone isnt an argument, hello shed shell. Also, Skarm learns roost iirc. Smack Down puts the pressure on your opponent because if you smack down skarm then its a free EQ. Balloon is also not an argument => you have Uturn.

 

[shrang]

Just saying, I would like to see a Choice Band set on Landorus. It's moderately fast, really strong, has good decent resistances and immunities, has U-turn, and good coverage with EdgeQuake. What more can you want? While yes, I will admit that the other sets are more practical than CB, there is nothing seriously wrong with the set that I can imagine letting it get excluded from the analysis.

 

[PK Gaming]

Oops, thought it was 1.5 sorry about that.

But i disagree with the rest of your post. Stone edge does 30% MAX to skarmory. Magnezone isnt an argument, hello shed shell. Also, Skarm learns roost iirc. Smack Down puts the pressure on your opponent because if you smack down skarm then its a free EQ. Balloon is also not an argument => you have Uturn.

Gravity does the same exact thing as Smack Down. Once the move is used you get a free Earthquake, and unlike Smack Down it isn't bypassed by running more than 1 flying type. (For example, if you used Smack Down on Skarmory and they switch out into Latios on the predicted EQ, then you've put yourself at a disadvantage. Smack Down is limited in that it only works against 1 target, so teams with multiple ground immunes can dance around it. Gravity on the other hand will always you to get a free EQ, which is kind of a big deal if they're not running Grass-types.

What does Smack Down have over Gravity?

 

[Ojama]

...

Last time i'll say that : IM TALKING ABOUT STONE EDGE. Stop with your gravity setn seriously. Stone Edge sucks on the ebelt set, thats all. Smack down is better and i already explained why.
Lol @your Latios. Dont you know Uturn ? Of course after using smack down on skarm, your opponent wont switch and you wont predict a switch...

Oh well.

 

[PK Gaming]

...

...

Last time i'll say that : IM TALKING ABOUT STONE EDGE. Stop with your gravity setn seriously. Stone Edge sucks on the ebelt set, thats all. Smack down is better and i already explained why.

You're saying that Smack Down is better than Stone Edge to justify it replacing Stone Edge on the Expert Belt set. I'm saying that the move Gravity is better then Smack Down in almost all cases, so by my logic, every time you mention Smack Down, you should in fact be mentioning Gravity because I think it's a better move. Not that hard a concept.

Lol @your Latios. Dont you know Uturn ? Of course after using smack down on skarm, your opponent wont switch and you wont predict a switch...

Oh well.

What? You're not making any sense here. If you use Gravity, you achieve the exact same effects as Smack Down. At no point have you bothered to give us a reason to use Smack Down over Gravity, at all. In your scenario:

*Smack down is used on Skarmory
*Skarmory switches out into Latios / ground immune
*Landorus can EQ or U-turn on Latios/ground immune. Assuming you u-turn, you take a chunk of it's health and gain momentum.

In my scenario:

*Gravity is used on Skarmory
*Landorus uses Earthquake after Skarmory switches out
*Everything outside of a grass-type of dedicated physical wall is taking heavy damage. There's no need for U-turn (but I can still use it anyway because I have that option)

Both sets share the same set of counters and function similarly. Gravity is just an easier move to use and it even works Air Balloon users. So i'm going to ask you again. Why would you use Smack down over Gravity?

 

[Ojama]

Are we talking about the gravity set or the ebelt one ? I am not saying to use smack down over gravity but over stone edge. That are 2 different sets even tho they look pretty similar. Gravity is more like a late game sweeper. The ebelt set is a stall breaker. On the gravity set you dont have uturn and thats why they are different.

You dont want to run smackdown over stone edge on the ebelt set cause gravity set does the exact same job in better. Thats not a reason to use a bad move on the ebelt set. In this case, delete the ebelt set cause there is an unique ebelt set : uturn eq hp ice smackdown and nothing else.

Last thing : uturn over stone edge on the gravity so you can delete the ebelt set because ill agree with you : gravity > smack down. But if you keep stone edge on the gravity set, the ebelt set will still have uturn, which is just awesome on lando.

 

[Pocket]

[Gravity]

LO HP ice is going to decimate stuff like Tangrowth, Breloom, Gliscor, Tornadus-T, and Hippowdon.

Don't you mean Landorus-T?

[Special]

These will harm coverage significantly - you'll miss good hits on virizion and keldeo, and an accurate hit on Rotom-W.

Mention Gengar here, too.

QC Approved (1/3)

 

[PK Gaming]

Are we talking about the gravity set or the ebelt one ? I am not saying to use smack down over gravity but over stone edge. That are 2 different sets even tho they look pretty similar. Gravity is more like a late game sweeper. The ebelt set is a stall breaker. On the gravity set you dont have uturn and thats why they are different.

I was talking about the ebelt set, not the Gravity set. When i'm referring to Gravity, i'm talking about the move, not the moveset. I think that's how this whole argument started. When you suggested that the Expert belt set should replace Stone Edge with Smack Down, I mentioned that Gravity was almost always a better choice than Smack Down. What i've been trying to say is that if you're going to replace Stone Edge, you should replace it with Gravity NOT Smack Down.

You dont want to run smackdown over stone edge on the ebelt set cause gravity set does the exact same job in better. Thats not a reason to use a bad move on the ebelt set. In this case, delete the ebelt set cause there is an unique ebelt set : uturn eq hp ice smackdown and nothing else.

Again, I was talking about the MOVE Gravity not the set.

If we do change the ebelt set to the one you suggested U-turn / EQ / HP ice / Gravity would be used.

Last thing : uturn over stone edge on the gravity so you can delete the ebelt set because ill agree with you : gravity > smack down. But if you keep stone edge on the gravity set, the ebelt set will still have uturn, which is just awesome on lando.

Fair enough. I don't see much use in SE on the gravity set anyway.

 

[yee]

I'm recommending we combine the E Belt and Gravity set to something of this nature-

Landorus @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
-Gravity
-Earthquake
-HP Ice
-U-Turn / Stone Edge

The current Smack Down e belt set and Gravity set's goals are reflected perfectly in just one set. Smack Down over Gravity in OO if you're Mamoswine weak or something.

 

[Ojama]

Alright PK Gaming, but you werent enough clear i guess. Now i do agree with you.