i find in a rain dance team a hidden power electric works quite nicely on the mixdra over rain dance. it provides a higher base power than draco meteor does against gyarados and this helps in combating rest sleep talk gyarados than can stall with rest until you get -6 spatt. also you don't have to lower a useful stat or use an inaccurate move if you just want to plan ohko more offensive gyarados.
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Kingdra (Update)
- Thread starter MetaNite
- Start date
Just posting (probably late?) that shouldn't Sniper get special mention on Specs Kingdra? Since I thought the whole allure of it (or at least told to me) was being able to OHKO Blissey with a Sniper Crit Draco Meteor, after Stealth Rock damage. I know its situational (extremely!) but I feel like that should be mentioned maybe. ?_?
I'm sorry, but this is just untrue. Rain Dance does not boost Kingdra's most powerful physical attack, Outrage. Without Outrage, rain can be outstalled by Vaporeon, Celebi, RestTalk Gyarados, and WishBliss. What do you do then? You are forced out, which is a lose. Rain Dance's boost also does not "stack." By this I mean you can Dragon Dance multiple times, if you get the chance, and become faster and more powerful than any other Kingdra. This is the reason Rain Dance Kingdra is able to be outstalled of rain, unlike Dragon Dance variants. You can't do anything but attack as they recover their health. With Dragon Dance, Kingdra can set up on some of these Pokemon can then take 'em out with Outrage. It doesn't have to use Draco Meteor, which is a horrible sweeping move compared to Outrage. Furthermore, a Tyranitar or Hippowdon could switch in after you kill a Pokemon and get rid of rain. You are a hell of a lot easier to kill now. The real beauty of Kingdra is its ability to effectively use BOTH Dragon Dance and Rain Dance, which often have radically different counters, making it extremely difficult to kill. Skarmory may come in expecting a Dragon Dance set, only for you to set up Rain Dance. Vaporeon may come in to outstall a Rain Dancer, only to find out you have Dragon Dance. It has been mentioned in the analysis that a Rain team is not necessary to use Rain Dance Kingdra; but the ultimate decision is obviously up to the user. It should be obvious however, that it does perform better in a Rain Dance team.
RL, I did change RestTalk Kingdra's EV spread and adjusted the comments to fit it. I tested the spread for a couple days and I too find it much more effective than the previous one. Thank you whistle, I've corrected the errors. And thanks Setrack, Hidden Power Electric is now mentioned in the set comments. Sniper is viable on all the non-Rain Dance sets, but without Swift Swim Kingdra can't combat enemy Rain Dance teams. The choice as to the ability should be up to the user, which is why I'm going to remove the ability tag for all sets but the Rain Dancers. Thanks for all the comments.
I'm no expert, but I can't understand your doubt of the Double Dance set's effectveness; I run that set on one of my rain dance teams, with a Damp Rock over Leftovers, and it's my most valuable team member. It gets numerous chances to force things out and set up rain, meaning it now outspeeds and OHKO's all common users of dragon-type moves in OU. This allows it easily get at least one DD, often two, at which point it can outspeed and 2HKO nearly everything in the game with the right move.
You do realize that Kingdra's most powerful attack in general is Hydro Pump thanks to the physical obsessiveness of the metagame? A Rain Boosted Hydro Pump outdamages a +1 Lire Orb Waterfall on the mixdra set by 68%. Standard Kingdra aren't even running Life Orb. A Rain Boosted Hydro Pump is actually more powerful than a +2 Waterfall on the SubDance set as well. Rain Dance IS more effective statistically. I agree with the situations you mentioned and they are a pain in the ass but as far as efficiency rain makes the most out of Kingdra's base stats and packs a hell of a lot more immediate power. Dragon Dance I really only ever found useful on the RestTalk Kingdra set. As for Outrage, it is a highly overrated move on anything taking time to set up because it just locks you in and confusion sucks. Your better off slappin on a Band like Draggy and wailing away if you go that route.
But anyway, no one has tried the bulky stand alone swift swimmer yet?
Double post bumpage.
Okay, so since you tested the Bulky Stand alone here are some things that came to mind:
Set ordering - I think stand alone sets now should be first since it logically makes more sense now that i read through this analysis. Rain Dance sets should probably be last (then just mention why - you will want a rain dance team to get the most out of them)
Pending the completion of Chesto-Rest, that will probably be the first set. I don't know how people will react to my suggesting of combining chesto with SubDance since its basically a much more effective set, but order seems good like this:
Chesto / SubDance
Bulky Swimmer
Double Dance
Mixdance
RestTalk DD
Choice Specs
Rain Dance (Mixed)
Rain Dance (Special)
Something like this:
Bulky Swimmer is already done on the other edit.
Also, this is in the RestTalk set comments:
Okay, so since you tested the Bulky Stand alone here are some things that came to mind:
Set ordering - I think stand alone sets now should be first since it logically makes more sense now that i read through this analysis. Rain Dance sets should probably be last (then just mention why - you will want a rain dance team to get the most out of them)
Pending the completion of Chesto-Rest, that will probably be the first set. I don't know how people will react to my suggesting of combining chesto with SubDance since its basically a much more effective set, but order seems good like this:
Chesto / SubDance
Bulky Swimmer
Double Dance
Mixdance
RestTalk DD
Choice Specs
Rain Dance (Mixed)
Rain Dance (Special)
Something like this:
AC Spread, 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD (4 HP actually puts Kingdra's HP at 292, which makes it vulnerable to residual damage)
Bulky Swimmer is already done on the other edit.
Max HP on Kingdra is amazing. 164 EVs outspeeds Choice Scarf Flygon after Rain Dance. Also outspeeds Scarftar and co. after 1 Dragon Dance. I had an inspiration about this set and realized how amazingly versatile this thing can be. Use Rain Dance first when fighting offensive teams to rape them. Omit Rain Dance against semi-stall and just Dragon Dance like a normal dancer. The Bulk makes Kingdra able to do anything really.
Also, this is in the RestTalk set comments:
Edit that spread to this. Outspeeds Scarf Tyranitar after 1 Dance and Scarf Flygon after two. 96 Atk is a cool bonus point too :). Also you can mention how unbelievably gay this set is to Rotom lol it sets up on them all day.
Chesto and SubDance really don't play anywhere near similarly, and I don't want to see them combined at all.
They play extremely similarly. The difference is one move.
SubDD vs. Opponent
Dragon Dance / Sub / Dragon Dance / SPAM
Chesto Rest vs. opponent
Dragon Dance / Dragon Dance / Rest / SPAM
Different enough for a completely different write up? I don't think so. If anything replace Sub DD or AC it. First of all the EV spread is inefficient, and everything it is trying to do is done better by a combination of Chesto Rest, Double Dance, Bulky Rain Dance, RestTalk DD, Mix Dance, Mixed Rain.. its probably the worst set on the whole analysis.
SubDD vs. Opponent
Dragon Dance / Sub / Dragon Dance / SPAM
Chesto Rest vs. opponent
Dragon Dance / Dragon Dance / Rest / SPAM
Different enough for a completely different write up? I don't think so. If anything replace Sub DD or AC it. First of all the EV spread is inefficient, and everything it is trying to do is done better by a combination of Chesto Rest, Double Dance, Bulky Rain Dance, RestTalk DD, Mix Dance, Mixed Rain.. its probably the worst set on the whole analysis.
Is it a big deal to keep them as two different sets? I don't really understand the need to merge them...
Yes they play similarly but they are still somewhat different. I can play rest chesto kindra a lot more recklessly than sub DD and that in itself, even if not a huge deal is enough to warrant keeping them seperate.
So basically I'm thinking merging them will do more harm then good, kingdra doesn't even enough viable sets that adding another would clog up its analysis
PS I agree Sub DD is the worst on the analysis but "it doesn't hurt" to have it up there.
Sub and rest both have some advantages over the other as well, twave jirachi is an example i can think of.
Yes they play similarly but they are still somewhat different. I can play rest chesto kindra a lot more recklessly than sub DD and that in itself, even if not a huge deal is enough to warrant keeping them seperate.
So basically I'm thinking merging them will do more harm then good, kingdra doesn't even enough viable sets that adding another would clog up its analysis
PS I agree Sub DD is the worst on the analysis but "it doesn't hurt" to have it up there.
Sub and rest both have some advantages over the other as well, twave jirachi is an example i can think of.
Kingdra analysis is getting lengthy as it is. Sub + Dragon Dance is so outclassed by every other set on the analysis that Substitute should just be an AC mention on that set. If you look at what Sub DD does you should ask yourself why am I using this rather than pretty much pick your set? All the Rain Dance sets outdamage it with 1 Rain boost compared to +2, the DD +3 attack set is nearly as powerful with 1 dance as that set is with 2, and Chesto Rest / Rest + Sleep Talk are better for beating Stall and Celebi. Fuck Specs will get more kills than that. So when Chesto becomes finished you basically should drop Sub _ DD for the sake of providing readers with the most accurate information.
Crossposted from the Chesto Rest thread.
Also, that's 3 QCers that have weighed in that favor keeping them separate, so consider that "the decision".
So yeah.
Also, that's 3 QCers that have weighed in that favor keeping them separate, so consider that "the decision".
Sub is absolutely not outclassed by DD Chesto, they just play differently. Sub is guaranteed insurance against status, whereas Chesto isn't (Celebi or something could easily Twave you the turn you use Rest). Chesto is for tanking while setting up, and Sub is for purely sweeping without worrying about status, including Outrage confusion, should you not use up your Lum berry. Quit trying to lump things together, they're not similar in the least.
screw keeping it separate.. I'm talkin about dropping the set entirely.
That's even worse. Sub is incredibly viable, especially with Flygon being the big "fuck you" to Kingdra in the current metagame, and it still sweeps hard. You may think it's the "worst dd set", and hell, that might be right, but it's still a good set.
Why would you sub when Double Dance (which EV spread will be adjusted) can just Rain Dance on the switch to outspeed Flygon? Also, Flygon won't stay in there to get nuked, he will just U-turn to break your Sub while you futily Outrage or attack and get something else in. With no EV investment, you aren't taking hits like most Kingdra can. Not to mention every Rain Dance set does the same thing this set accomplishes but better (speed wise AND statistically). I hope to god Flygon isn't the only reason Substitute is there.. oh, to block status from Celebi / Rotom? Chesto Rest outclasses that, as does RestTalk Dragon Dance which can set up 6 Dragon Dances at will against both, just saying.
Double Dance is getting owned by Celebi, DD Rest Talk is getting owned by Flygon, Sub DD beats both in one set. Honestly, you don't have any solid ground in this argument. There is absolutely no way Sub DD, the most popular set, is going to be removed from the analysis. It's popular because it works, and it works well.
Oops sorry, I'm using a superior Kingdra spread on my sub.
120 HP / 236 Atk / 152 Spe Adamant
Subs survive a Scarf Flygon U-turn (79 max damage on an 80 hp sub), outspeeds jollytar before a dd / scarftar after a dd and all base 115s, and the rest in Attack.
In fact, I'd be in favor of this spread on SubDD Kingdra.
120 HP / 236 Atk / 152 Spe Adamant
Subs survive a Scarf Flygon U-turn (79 max damage on an 80 hp sub), outspeeds jollytar before a dd / scarftar after a dd and all base 115s, and the rest in Attack.
In fact, I'd be in favor of this spread on SubDD Kingdra.
Then push it to the bottom where it belongs.
@SDS, that spread looks a lot better. Though if you bump Speed to 164 you can actually outspeed Flygon after 2 Dances
@SDS, that spread looks a lot better. Though if you bump Speed to 164 you can actually outspeed Flygon after 2 Dances
Hmm, good point. So the final spread would be:
120 HP / 224 Atk / 164 Spe Adamant.
Sounds good to me.
As for order... just leave the order as-is until we actually come to a consensus about the whole thing. If a change is to be made, we can do it retroactively, but there's no reason to clutter up the analysis with discussion about it.
120 HP / 224 Atk / 164 Spe Adamant.
Sounds good to me.
As for order... just leave the order as-is until we actually come to a consensus about the whole thing. If a change is to be made, we can do it retroactively, but there's no reason to clutter up the analysis with discussion about it.
Any notable KOs that Kingdra loses by running Jolly over Adamant on SubDD?
Being able to outspeed Heatran is important to put up a Sub before the Explosion or outspeed ScarfTran after a DD.
Maybe a mention in the set comments?
Being able to outspeed Heatran is important to put up a Sub before the Explosion or outspeed ScarfTran after a DD.
Maybe a mention in the set comments?
Jolly is worth a mention, but from experience I can tell the attacking power between adamant and jolly is pretty clear. Kingdra is one of the few pokemon where I will almost never go +speed nature. 95 base attack with a jolly nature just isnt as intimidating =/
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All we ever look for
I think the Special Rain Dance EVs need to be edited. 252 Speed EVs seem like a waste, and some of it should be added to Kingdra's bulk. 164 Speed EVs (to outspeed +natured base 100s with a Choice Scarf in the rain) should suffice:
Nature: Modest
EVs: 92 HP/252 SpA/164 Spe
Nature: Modest
EVs: 92 HP/252 SpA/164 Spe
Agreed. 252 was mainly big to outspeed stuff like Scarfed Latias, AFAIK, and 92 HP can at the very least be useful.
I think 252 should still be mentioned tho. When i use special rain dance Kingdra, i always use 252 because it means u, at the very least, tie with opposing neutral natured Kingdra. I prefer tht over the slight bit of bulk, unless it lets u survive something that i don't know.
IMO, a few HP EVs doesn't help alot unless it warrants survival against common assaults. As far as I'm concerned (or at least typing on a stupid iTouch and not doing calcs) despite a few more points in HP, it doesn't help much when it comes to packing substitutes or doing an entirely offensive spread.
Keep in mind that whereas 252 HP EVs on ANY Pokemon might help because of the intended investment, things like a few lazy HP points doesn't really help that much due to such similar damage (I highly doubt 92 HP EVs are going to make a difference to the 4 HP investment). A purely bulky spread should be noted for this.
As for Kingdra, outspeeding common variants of other Kingdra and base 130 pokemon in Speed is a must. This is kind of why Special Kingdra runs max Speed.
Keep in mind that whereas 252 HP EVs on ANY Pokemon might help because of the intended investment, things like a few lazy HP points doesn't really help that much due to such similar damage (I highly doubt 92 HP EVs are going to make a difference to the 4 HP investment). A purely bulky spread should be noted for this.
As for Kingdra, outspeeding common variants of other Kingdra and base 130 pokemon in Speed is a must. This is kind of why Special Kingdra runs max Speed.