Hey everyone, following the recent shifts, the council held a vote. The threshold for something to be banned was 7/10. Heres the result:
Iron Hands (10/10), Latias (8/10) and Blaziken (7/10) are now banned from SV UU !
Nothing has really changed for Iron Hands since the last month when it was banned. It's still an incredible threat which is able to muscle threw most of defensive staples. In a really offensive metagame, Iron Hands is able to shine even more by being able to trade effectively vs HO archetypes. Aurora Veil / Screen's support amplifies its bulk to an extreme extent, making it nearly impossible to OHKO/2HKO. On the other hand, Latias is one of the most versatile Pokémon we got in this shifts. It can run whatever if wants ; moves, Teras, spreads, everything is customizable. From Agility/Recover + Calm Mind Stored Power with Tera Poison/Fairy to BoltBeam Tera Electrik variants and others such as Choice Scarf, the council deemed it too much to handle. Last but not least, while Blaziken is much more frail than Iron Hands or Latias and seems the least problematic from what emerged from council’s exchanges, its ability to snowball games thanks to Swords Dance + Speed Boost make it tough to handle defensively but also offensively. Even with its 4 MSS, Blaziken is versatile and really tough to check after a single SD. For those reasons, it was deemed too much.
If you want more in depth reasonings, you'll be able to see each council member's reasoning below :
Iron Hands (10/10), Latias (8/10) and Blaziken (7/10) are now banned from SV UU !
Nothing has really changed for Iron Hands since the last month when it was banned. It's still an incredible threat which is able to muscle threw most of defensive staples. In a really offensive metagame, Iron Hands is able to shine even more by being able to trade effectively vs HO archetypes. Aurora Veil / Screen's support amplifies its bulk to an extreme extent, making it nearly impossible to OHKO/2HKO. On the other hand, Latias is one of the most versatile Pokémon we got in this shifts. It can run whatever if wants ; moves, Teras, spreads, everything is customizable. From Agility/Recover + Calm Mind Stored Power with Tera Poison/Fairy to BoltBeam Tera Electrik variants and others such as Choice Scarf, the council deemed it too much to handle. Last but not least, while Blaziken is much more frail than Iron Hands or Latias and seems the least problematic from what emerged from council’s exchanges, its ability to snowball games thanks to Swords Dance + Speed Boost make it tough to handle defensively but also offensively. Even with its 4 MSS, Blaziken is versatile and really tough to check after a single SD. For those reasons, it was deemed too much.
If you want more in depth reasonings, you'll be able to see each council member's reasoning below :
Iron Hands: Ban. It's not as silly as people make it out to be IMO but this level of trade artist is not something that the tier needs right now and I feel we'd be better off just letting it chill in UUBL. Maybe later we can give it another shot.
Latias: DNB. I had initially planned to vote ban but as I played more I did start to feel like counterplay was more reasonable than I previously thought. It's still a pretty unhealthy cheesemon IMO so I'm not really going to be sad if it goes, but I think it should wait a little bit before going so we can explore the counterplay a bit more.
Blaziken: Ban. This thing has like 2 defensive answers and any mon where your counterplay is "let it die to Flare Blitz recoil as it kills 3 of your team members" is just not fostering healthy interactions. Shoutout to the Tera Ghost Blissey I ran into that made me OHKO myself.
Light Clay: Ban. There are like, minimum 5 Pokemon that are broken exclusively under screens and not otherwise. This is something people will come to understand as time goes on, though, so it's okay that it has to wait.
Latias: DNB. I had initially planned to vote ban but as I played more I did start to feel like counterplay was more reasonable than I previously thought. It's still a pretty unhealthy cheesemon IMO so I'm not really going to be sad if it goes, but I think it should wait a little bit before going so we can explore the counterplay a bit more.
Blaziken: Ban. This thing has like 2 defensive answers and any mon where your counterplay is "let it die to Flare Blitz recoil as it kills 3 of your team members" is just not fostering healthy interactions. Shoutout to the Tera Ghost Blissey I ran into that made me OHKO myself.
Light Clay: Ban. There are like, minimum 5 Pokemon that are broken exclusively under screens and not otherwise. This is something people will come to understand as time goes on, though, so it's okay that it has to wait.
N/A
light clay - very on the fence about it but with the amount of mons it enables currently i think it's best to ban it for now. not enough upside with the amount of potential bans we'd be looking at while keeping it
latias - I think there's a fair amount of counterplay with paralysis, salt cure, etc encouraging Substitute on Draining Kiss variants and a couple of encore users being around. Stuff like Agility and Weakness Policy feel way more flimsy for me. The versatility doesn't feel very threatening coming off its stats.
Blaziken - it's a bit too easy for it to steamroll with speed boost currently, would definitely want to free it once the meta is more calm though
Iron Hands - he be doing the most with the trades. it's hard for much to develop when All get 1v1'd. we have plenty of new toys to fuck up slower teams with so i dont see this as much of a loss
latias - I think there's a fair amount of counterplay with paralysis, salt cure, etc encouraging Substitute on Draining Kiss variants and a couple of encore users being around. Stuff like Agility and Weakness Policy feel way more flimsy for me. The versatility doesn't feel very threatening coming off its stats.
Blaziken - it's a bit too easy for it to steamroll with speed boost currently, would definitely want to free it once the meta is more calm though
Iron Hands - he be doing the most with the trades. it's hard for much to develop when All get 1v1'd. we have plenty of new toys to fuck up slower teams with so i dont see this as much of a loss
ban tera — Yesterday at 00:42
ok i’ve played 20 games with my very mid team
and spent a little over the past 2 hours laddering with a modified version of @Aislinn’s light clay team
i think all 4 are just bad for the tier and will be banning all
latias is a big bad broken bitch and swept so many games
didn’t even really need screens but they facilitated positioning a lot in some games
hands never dies and was always taking like 3 mons with it if i needed it to lol
blaziken i actually found the least broken out of those 3 but it also pretty much always put in work
idk what people are running but i exclusively used sash and was able to keep it intact almost every game
my last game i killed 5 on a rain team with it to sweep
sash adamant tera fight to clarify
and i hadn’t tried light clay besides the last 2 hours when i asked for a team and it’s hard to gauge whether it was just how silly those mons were at times or screens
but some games were definitely very facilitated by screens and i just don’t rly know what good they add?
so those are my “public” thoughts before my flight lands and i forget
ok i’ve played 20 games with my very mid team
and spent a little over the past 2 hours laddering with a modified version of @Aislinn’s light clay team
i think all 4 are just bad for the tier and will be banning all
latias is a big bad broken bitch and swept so many games
didn’t even really need screens but they facilitated positioning a lot in some games
hands never dies and was always taking like 3 mons with it if i needed it to lol
blaziken i actually found the least broken out of those 3 but it also pretty much always put in work
idk what people are running but i exclusively used sash and was able to keep it intact almost every game
my last game i killed 5 on a rain team with it to sweep
sash adamant tera fight to clarify
and i hadn’t tried light clay besides the last 2 hours when i asked for a team and it’s hard to gauge whether it was just how silly those mons were at times or screens
but some games were definitely very facilitated by screens and i just don’t rly know what good they add?
so those are my “public” thoughts before my flight lands and i forget
Latias: Ban. After writing a post that was pretty heavily in favour of it's ban, I admittedly spent more time thinking about latias, and for a moment wanted to give her more time since a smaller but quite vocal part of community had seemed to have a much better experience with the mon than what I had. Eventually I am still voting in favour of banning her. The mon is way too high variance and impossible to consistently answer, the so called fishy sets in reality require too specific counterplay to keep in check, while the overall best sets always get an insane chunk of value that often results being game ending.
Iron Hands: Ban. Could quote the 15 books i previously dedicated to this mon because it's often the same story. Outtrades everything you put in front of it, great typing with insane coverage and this time around it's even harder to deny it from healing back to full every other turn.
Blaziken: Do Not Ban. Insane offensive capabilities but pretty much itemlocked and force into very awkward moveset decisions, I believe there is also an existent bit of reliable defensive counterplay to it, and finally a good amount of commonly used priorities. All of these things ultimately make blaziken a lot more awkward than it otherwise would be, after adapting to it a bit I haven't had many issues dealing with it, and when trying it out I found it to be a 1x1 bot that had decent upsides, but nothing incredible.
Light Clay: Do Not Ban. To quote my previous post on it, I don't feel like it enhanced the abusers in a way where this was the problem, but rather the mon themselves. While I agree that it doesn't add anything to the tier, I don't think it breaks any pokémon at this point in time and I feel like it's way too early to make a decision that i personally believe it's a last resort, especially when we don't completely understand what we have in our hands yet.
Iron Hands: Ban. Could quote the 15 books i previously dedicated to this mon because it's often the same story. Outtrades everything you put in front of it, great typing with insane coverage and this time around it's even harder to deny it from healing back to full every other turn.
Blaziken: Do Not Ban. Insane offensive capabilities but pretty much itemlocked and force into very awkward moveset decisions, I believe there is also an existent bit of reliable defensive counterplay to it, and finally a good amount of commonly used priorities. All of these things ultimately make blaziken a lot more awkward than it otherwise would be, after adapting to it a bit I haven't had many issues dealing with it, and when trying it out I found it to be a 1x1 bot that had decent upsides, but nothing incredible.
Light Clay: Do Not Ban. To quote my previous post on it, I don't feel like it enhanced the abusers in a way where this was the problem, but rather the mon themselves. While I agree that it doesn't add anything to the tier, I don't think it breaks any pokémon at this point in time and I feel like it's way too early to make a decision that i personally believe it's a last resort, especially when we don't completely understand what we have in our hands yet.
Can be found here!
Can be found here!
About Light Clay : I believe Light Clay is the best angle to dent Screens/Veil Offense without banning even more Pokémon. I do believe Ninetales-A could be a decent Pokémon outside of Veil teams and I think it doesn't hurt the tier that much to act on Light Clay. For those reasons, I'm voting ban.
About Light Clay : I believe Light Clay is the best angle to dent Screens/Veil Offense without banning even more Pokémon. I do believe Ninetales-A could be a decent Pokémon outside of Veil teams and I think it doesn't hurt the tier that much to act on Light Clay. For those reasons, I'm voting ban.
ban iron hands its just broken and we lost the answers for it, esp with how decent screens are its not really just cheese. it has massive bulk and a plethora of a tera options, as well as different sets to circumvent checks such as sub sets, even have seen punching glove to counter tank chomp or other helmet answers.
ban latias this thing has too many sets and is just incredibly broken, it wins games on its own and its almost impossible to account for in the builder without using multiple mons to check it, you need a mon to defeat it normally and then another mon to defeat it if it teras and then another mon to defeat another set, its just too much
no ban light clay i think people aren't adapting well enough to the screen meta, its not that bad to tech for screens and i think with some of its main abusers gone, itll get weaker. as the meta develops id like to see how these style pan out and i think its too early for us to just nerf a whole playstyle
abstain blaziken, i haven't really seen much of this mon on my time on ladder and i can't really figure out if its broken or not, i'm kind of on the fence about it and don't really have enough information to make an educated claim on whether it should be removed from the tier or not
ban latias this thing has too many sets and is just incredibly broken, it wins games on its own and its almost impossible to account for in the builder without using multiple mons to check it, you need a mon to defeat it normally and then another mon to defeat it if it teras and then another mon to defeat another set, its just too much
no ban light clay i think people aren't adapting well enough to the screen meta, its not that bad to tech for screens and i think with some of its main abusers gone, itll get weaker. as the meta develops id like to see how these style pan out and i think its too early for us to just nerf a whole playstyle
abstain blaziken, i haven't really seen much of this mon on my time on ladder and i can't really figure out if its broken or not, i'm kind of on the fence about it and don't really have enough information to make an educated claim on whether it should be removed from the tier or not
Hands: ban. I forgot how many times I voted ban on this by now but hands still isn't okay, its way too restrictive and wins too many trades, not having skeledirge around compared to last meta is also huge.
Latias: ban. Initially didn't feel it was all too strong but then I saw all the possible sets it can run and it's definitely a little too much, cm is the one set I'd consider broken because latios does a better job at running offensive sets but even being restricted to calm mind it has so many options with coverage (stored power, boltbeam, draining kiss, aura sphere, there's probably more), tera types and even ev spreads. I find it hard to see it as a healthy presence longterm.
Blaziken: do not ban. Wasn't really impressed with it, it basically requires the perfect setup for it to consistently win games and I find it quite easy to stop with bulky waters or just hitting it with whatever's on the field to mitigate it and revenge kill with the many priority options we have.
Light clay: do not ban. Screens are pretty weak and they do not push anything in particular over the edge nor make any pokemon look more broken than it actually is/would be, I'm actually happier seeing a screens team at preview than an hyper offense team actually using 6 pokemon so I don't really see the issue here, in my opinion screens aren't that scary or problematic so dnb.
Latias: ban. Initially didn't feel it was all too strong but then I saw all the possible sets it can run and it's definitely a little too much, cm is the one set I'd consider broken because latios does a better job at running offensive sets but even being restricted to calm mind it has so many options with coverage (stored power, boltbeam, draining kiss, aura sphere, there's probably more), tera types and even ev spreads. I find it hard to see it as a healthy presence longterm.
Blaziken: do not ban. Wasn't really impressed with it, it basically requires the perfect setup for it to consistently win games and I find it quite easy to stop with bulky waters or just hitting it with whatever's on the field to mitigate it and revenge kill with the many priority options we have.
Light clay: do not ban. Screens are pretty weak and they do not push anything in particular over the edge nor make any pokemon look more broken than it actually is/would be, I'm actually happier seeing a screens team at preview than an hyper offense team actually using 6 pokemon so I don't really see the issue here, in my opinion screens aren't that scary or problematic so dnb.
lati: ban, thing is stupid our splashable steels can’t handle it and it’s wp sets make me wanna die, with another lati in the tier especially this one doesn’t specifically add anything healthy at all
hands: ban, personally this guy is stupid as fuck. Everything about this mon that was broken prior feels somehow worse now, not to mention that with all the broken shit running around it’s splashability as smth that just trades infinitely w everything is through the roof. With no dirge there is almost nothing in the builder that makes me feel decent abt checking this guy when I see one except for winning with some threat that can do enough damage to it w boosts before hands wins against me.
blaziken: ban, again nothing but unhealthy aspects to this guy. speed boost is very strong and this is the perfect fellow to contribute to these cheesey archetypes and put the tier in a constant state of cheese mirrors where building feels inconsequential as you will certainly just lose to final mon blaziken no matter what. I will say and maybe i’m alone on this that I can see a world where it could be not ban worthy in the future, but as of rn I think it’s gotta go.
light clay: dnb, I don’t personally care for this to be on the slate, I think the meta is completely fresh so it’s natural that all these broken sweepers are running around and it’s natural cheese is very good w the offensive power level of the meta rn being higher than it should be if the state of the tier was healthier. I’d prefer prioritizing mons and potentially banning light clay if and only if it continues to be broken and it’s a thought we come back to in the future.
hands: ban, personally this guy is stupid as fuck. Everything about this mon that was broken prior feels somehow worse now, not to mention that with all the broken shit running around it’s splashability as smth that just trades infinitely w everything is through the roof. With no dirge there is almost nothing in the builder that makes me feel decent abt checking this guy when I see one except for winning with some threat that can do enough damage to it w boosts before hands wins against me.
blaziken: ban, again nothing but unhealthy aspects to this guy. speed boost is very strong and this is the perfect fellow to contribute to these cheesey archetypes and put the tier in a constant state of cheese mirrors where building feels inconsequential as you will certainly just lose to final mon blaziken no matter what. I will say and maybe i’m alone on this that I can see a world where it could be not ban worthy in the future, but as of rn I think it’s gotta go.
light clay: dnb, I don’t personally care for this to be on the slate, I think the meta is completely fresh so it’s natural that all these broken sweepers are running around and it’s natural cheese is very good w the offensive power level of the meta rn being higher than it should be if the state of the tier was healthier. I’d prefer prioritizing mons and potentially banning light clay if and only if it continues to be broken and it’s a thought we come back to in the future.