SPOILERS! Indigo Disk Discussion

Suspicious Derivative

With regards to Lacey's parents you were speculating on.

Most common speculation is that her Mom is Elesa.

Her blurb for the Plaza mentions her home city being Nimbasa despite Clay as the obvious candidate for her Dad, with many assuming she lives with her Mom while the Dad is more active with his job(s) as is a thing in a lot of Japanese media depictions and even the RSE protagonist. Other hints people point to include her Red/Blue hair accessories and Plusle/Minun for the "casual" first battle when you arrive.

I've also seen some dialogue circulated about her comparing the player to a Model and that "Momma would say you have potential", but I haven't been able to track it down in-game to verify that as a potential hint myself.
 
Suspicious Derivative

With regards to Lacey's parents you were speculating on.

Most common speculation is that her Mom is Elesa.

Her blurb for the Plaza mentions her home city being Nimbasa despite Clay as the obvious candidate for her Dad, with many assuming she lives with her Mom while the Dad is more active with his job(s) as is a thing in a lot of Japanese media depictions and even the RSE protagonist. Other hints people point to include her Red/Blue hair accessories and Plusle/Minun for the "casual" first battle when you arrive.

I've also seen some dialogue circulated about her comparing the player to a Model and that "Momma would say you have potential", but I haven't been able to track it down in-game to verify that as a potential hint myself.
Checking poke-corpus (what a great thing this is https://abcboy101.github.io/poke-corpus/ ) I don't see at a glance those kind of lines, though it's a bit finnicky to find all of a character's dialog
 
Checking poke-corpus (what a great thing this is https://abcboy101.github.io/poke-corpus/ ) I don't see at a glance those kind of lines, though it's a bit finnicky to find all of a character's dialog
One thing I figured out you can do once you find a line from a character is click their name in grey, which will give you the variable for their speaking name to search from ( [VAR 0114(0049)] for Lacey). But it is true that those lines in that picture don't exist.
 

Well ok, this is a nice explanation to the whole time traveling shenanigans, I can accept it (I will not dedicate a single braincell to falsify this today).
I was starting to conclude that Terapagos is a socialite that likes interacting with humanity, warping time and timelines around itself to satisfy others. ...And that's how it learned what humanity's favourite type symbols are. Note that Terapagos's type symbols regularly warp into more abstract shapes and back, suggesting that, back when it didn't know any type symbols, its symbols on its shell were only in those abstract shapes.

We'll let you conclude whether Heath was subliminally expecting alternate versions of Pokemon when he first went into Area Zero and awoke Terapagos.

Aside: Terapagos really seems like a predator that lets Pokemon regular Terastallize to defend themselves against other Pokemon, then Stellar Terastallizes and hunts them down with the offensive type advantage. Be thankful it's mostly lazy and dormant.
 
I can't view twitter threads without a twitter account. What do posts 2, 3, and 4 say?
One thing I want to point out, they don’t summon random things. In fact, Terapagos doesn’t decide what to summon. They only do the correlating time traveling upon reacting to wishes. Heath/Sada/Turo wanted to see Paradox Pokemon, so Paradox Pokemon were summoned to them. (2/4)

This also explains why the other explorers didn’t see Paradox Pokemon, because they didn’t wish to see those creepy monsters. Only after Sada/Turo used Pokeballs to catch them across time, the paradox Pokemon were able to start staying and inhabit in the modern time. (3/4)

This also explains the encounter with Sada/Turo in Crystal Pool. Neither we nor Terapagos wanted to meet Sada/Turo. The wish of meeting them was from your giant lizard. Look how happy they were when they showed up, and how sad they were when they left. (4/4)
Honestly the theory isn't much different from what we had before-terapagos responding effectively to the wish/desire and using its power accordingly-just swap out "imagination" for "AUs"/Actual Time Travel (depending on how definitively you want to view the Professor's theory at the lake) for the paradoxes (stuff like the AI and other science experiments are still handled by effectively the same thing in either theory).

Though on point 3 I'd throw in "most of the populace thought the Book was fake and only tabloid fodder".
 
Cool. I forgot about Nimbasa being her home city, otherwise that might have been a good clue as for who her mother is. While I have a hard time seeing Clay and Elesa as a couple, I guess anything is possible.
Yeah when I first saw that theory I was searching my brain for any major points in the Unova games where Clay and Elesa interact.
Suspicious Derivative

With regards to Lacey's parents you were speculating on.

Most common speculation is that her Mom is Elesa.

Her blurb for the Plaza mentions her home city being Nimbasa despite Clay as the obvious candidate for her Dad, with many assuming she lives with her Mom while the Dad is more active with his job(s) as is a thing in a lot of Japanese media depictions and even the RSE protagonist. Other hints people point to include her Red/Blue hair accessories and Plusle/Minun for the "casual" first battle when you arrive.

I've also seen some dialogue circulated about her comparing the player to a Model and that "Momma would say you have potential", but I haven't been able to track it down in-game to verify that as a potential hint myself.
I get the other points of this theory but the "she lives with her Mom" is weird to me because I saw Lacey as at least a mid/late teen (around the Unova protagonists' ages) and in the Pokemon universe you are considered an almost-adult level independence at that age, so Lacey might legally reside in Driftveil but spend so much time in Nimbasa that it feels more like home to her.
Another thing I've been wondering: Where do you think SV fits in the timeline? As in, do you think Lacey was already born by the time of BW and/or B2W2? If so, how old was she?
 
Another thing I've been wondering: Where do you think SV fits in the timeline? As in, do you think Lacey was already born by the time of BW and/or B2W2? If so, how old was she?
I think the timeline will be
SV takes place after SWSH and that had to take place after SM, and SM kind of leaned on approximate contemporary with real world passage of time with Gen 1 being ~20 years prior judging by Porygon's dex entry...so that'd put a "just born" Lacey in BW1/2 around 14/12 an dpossibly younger if it was after that.
So kind of shaky to really say anything definitively; the timeline is so loose beyond general placements as it is (& SM Red + Blue are prrrrrrobably not in their 30s so even the Porygon thing could just be off base for our purposes) they could say she's 16 and also born shortly after BW2 as much as they could say she was like 5 in BW1 and is still only 16 now.
 
I think Junichi Masuda has said previously that they aren’t very strict about adhering to the timeline, so I imagine it’s probably able to “float” as necessary. Much like with the original Black & White games’ time placement, I suspect that they’d end up leaving it deliberately vague. It’s just easier that way.

Other hints people point to include her Red/Blue hair accessories
What accessories are those? :smogthink: As far as I can tell she just has the jade-accented hair pins.

She does have red and blue in her design, but only because she’s wearing the Blueberry uniform.
 
I think Junichi Masuda has said previously that they aren’t very strict about adhering to the timeline, so I imagine it’s probably able to “float” as necessary. Much like with the original Black & White games’ time placement, I suspect that they’d end up leaving it deliberately vague. It’s just easier that way.



What accessories are those? :smogthink: As far as I can tell she just has the jade-accented hair pins.

She does have red and blue in her design, but only because she’s wearing the Blueberry uniform.
Sorry, "her accessories" referring to the Mom, not to Lacey.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
I think Junichi Masuda has said previously that they aren’t very strict about adhering to the timeline, so I imagine it’s probably able to “float” as necessary. Much like with the original Black & White games’ time placement, I suspect that they’d end up leaving it deliberately vague. It’s just easier that way.
I know I’m pretty late to this discussion, but if this adds anything to it, we do actually have some clarification on when Black & White takes place, but the information wasn’t immediately available. During Gen 5’s active lifespan, we knew there was a pretty significant time jump between Gens 2 and 4, evident by things like Caitlin’s appearance and that one Team Rocket guy. Exactly how much time passed remained a mystery for a while, up until the release of Sun & Moon, actually. That game’s PokéDex mentioned Porygon was created 20 years ago, and from there we can do some simple math using what we already know. 20 years, minus three for the Gen 1/3 to Gen 2/4 (not 5, that was a typo) jump, minus another two for the Unova sequels, and minus another two for the two-year gap between B2W2 and SuMo revealed in official concept artwork for some of the returning characters. For those keeping track at home, Black & White 1 should take 12 years after the events of Platinum and HGSS.

As for what this information means for the purpose of the DLC… I have no idea

Edit: You may have noticed that my math doesn’t exactly line up with the original games taking place in 1996. Me being one year off wasn’t an error, as we have confirmation that Porygon itself was created in 1995.
 
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I know I’m pretty late to this discussion, but if this adds anything to it, we do actually have some clarification on when Black & White takes place, but the information wasn’t immediately available. During Gen 5’s active lifespan, we knew there was a pretty significant time jump between Gens 2 and 4, evident by things like Caitlin’s appearance and that one Team Rocket guy. Exactly how much time passed remained a mystery for a while, up until the release of Sun & Moon, actually. That game’s PokéDex mentioned Porygon was created 20 years ago, and from there we can do some simple math using what we already know. 20 years, minus three for the Gen 1/3 to Gen 2/5 jump, minus another two for the Unova sequels, and minus another two for the two-year gap between B2W2 and SuMo revealed in official concept artwork for some of the returning characters. For those keeping track at home, Black & White 1 should take 12 years after the events of Platinum and HGSS.

As for what this information means for the purpose of the DLC… I have no idea
Unless the combined gap between SM-SwSh and SwSh-SV is similar to the HGSS-BW gap (and I can't remember anything that could really contradict that in the games), I really see no way Lacey was not born before the time of BW or at least B2W2.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
Unless the combined gap between SM-SwSh and SwSh-SV is similar to the HGSS-BW gap (and I can't remember anything that could really contradict that in the games), I really see no way Lacey was not born before the time of BW or at least B2W2.
Unfortunately I don’t have much to say on how long these time gaps may have lasted, and I’m not sure we’ll ever have a clear answer. We know the games are connected, and that the gap in between B2W2 and SV has to be at least four years. The issue here for figuring out when Lacey was born is that it’s not just four years- it’s four years plus the indeterminate combined time gap you mentioned. And last I checked, she or none of the others are a 4-year-old. My immediate guess is that they’d have to be old enough to be enrolled in the Blueberry Academy’s curriculum, meaning probably somewhere around early teens.
 
I know I’m pretty late to this discussion, but if this adds anything to it, we do actually have some clarification on when Black & White takes place, but the information wasn’t immediately available. During Gen 5’s active lifespan, we knew there was a pretty significant time jump between Gens 2 and 4, evident by things like Caitlin’s appearance and that one Team Rocket guy. Exactly how much time passed remained a mystery for a while, up until the release of Sun & Moon, actually. That game’s PokéDex mentioned Porygon was created 20 years ago, and from there we can do some simple math using what we already know. 20 years, minus three for the Gen 1/3 to Gen 2/4 (not 5, that was a typo) jump, minus another two for the Unova sequels, and minus another two for the two-year gap between B2W2 and SuMo revealed in official concept artwork for some of the returning characters. For those keeping track at home, Black & White 1 should take 12 years after the events of Platinum and HGSS.
I think even this can be looked at in the context of the series having a floating timeline that shifts depending on what they’re doing with the current game.

When they were developing Black & White, they probably weren’t thinking of it along the lines of “Red & Blue took place in 1996, just like in real life, and it’s been 14 years since then, so that’s how much time has passed in the game world too.”

But when they were developing Sun & Moon, they probably were thinking, “These are the 20th anniversary games, so let’s throw in some references to reflect that as part of the game world.”

As time and the circumstances around development change, the approach to the timeline changes.
 

Codraroll

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It seems like this DLC has been rather positively reviewed so far. Due to moving houses and a new job and generally being busy with life I haven't played through it all so far, but I thought I'd rant a bit about my displeasure here. I think I've played through enough of the DLC to form an opinion of it, at least.

First, let's start with some positives.

Despite its nonsensical setting (why exactly did the terrarium have to be underwater, when the inside behaves exactly like a location on land?), I think the Great Terrarium is easily the best-looking overworld we've ever seen in the mainline Pokémon games. Okay, there are only four different biomes, but they are gorgeous. From the sprawling savannah to the cliff maze of the Canyon biome, the lush tropical setting, and the snowscape of the Polar biome, these look great, and all much better than mainland Paldea. It's as if the overworld modelling team finally managed to get the hang of building 3D locations, which makes me excited for whatever they have in store next. It's not just the visual appeal of it either, but the layout is excellent too. The terrain is always varied and distinct wherever you are in the four biomes. No place really look like anywhere else. If you care to look for them, there are multiple sub-biomes, like the Lion King rock in the Savannah compared to the mud flats, the cactus fields, dry flats, and canyons. Likewise, there's a great deal of variety between the freezing mountaintop and the iceberg-riddled bay of the Polar Biome. Bit of a shame that the Pokémon spawns are the same all over the place, though.

And of course, the fifth pseudo-biome, Chargestone Cavern. It's as if Game Freak is apologizing for the Galar Mines. This is what a Pokémon dungeon on the Switch is supposed to look like. You can easily get lost in its depths. There are giant caverns, narrow passages, monumental crystals, Galvantula webs, and a layout that takes full advantage of three dimensions. I wandered around there for ten minutes yesterday, trying to find the exit.

The writing is getting quite good too. Nothing that will win industry prizes any time soon, but it's certainly less wooden than previous generations. Things have certainly improved since Sun and Moon interrupting gameplay every five minutes to tell you something you already heard three times before. The developers are clearly letting go of the the players' hands to a greater degree than before, and having more fun fleshing out characters. The designs of the new characters are also complemented nicely by their unique animations. Back in the sprite-based days, all you had to show a character's, well, character was their dialogue. But now they can show more and tell less. Wonderful.

Speaking of letting go of players' hands and trusting them to find things out for themselves: the battles. It seems like the first time in forever, we've got some really challenging foes to fight. An all-Doubles extravaganza filled with opponents that use actual strategy, complete with using held items and Abilities. Even random trainers can wipe the team of an unprepared player. This is exactly what I've wanted since the days of Colosseum and XD: Difficulty and strategy. And not like the "artificial" difficulty of Raid Battles or Totem Pokémon either, where the opponents have seven different moves, a bajillion HP and can nullify stat boosts whenever it feels like it. These are honest, even fights where the NPCs use the exact same tools as are available to the players. No shenangigans, just raw team building, back to the basics of the franchise.

Actually, I have to talk a bit more about the difficulty, because it's such an important point: these battles are not insurmountably difficult. They can be steamrolled with an overlevelled team, or a team of specially tuned counters. Or possibly also some cheese strategies. But it feels like the NPCs now make an actual effort in battles, instead of just keeling over and fainting when the player comes knocking (Gen VI was especially bad here, but the past two gens have committed some sins too). The player always had this wide toolbox of tricks to boost and enhance their Pokémon, but the in-game opponents always refrained from using them. This gave players a massive advantage, to the point that it was way too easy to get ahead of the power curve and just steamroll the game with STAB moves. Victory was all but guaranteed when the in-game bosses used three bad Pokémon with incomplete movesets, poor IVs and no held items. That gave a sense of the games being way too easy. You won whether you made an effort or not. Oh, how we pined for some proper resistance from the in-game story. Well, here we go. This is exactly what we've clamored for for so long. And I'm having a real blast. Sure, I win the battles with relative ease still, but at least it feels like I'm battling competent opponents instead of just flattening cardboard obstacles. It feels great. More of this in the future, please!

There's not much to say about the new Pokémon since they are so few and I've yet to encounter any of the legendaries, but I'm going to say much anyway, because I really like the two new non-legendary Pokémon. I freaking adore three-stage evolution families, so it was really sweet to see Dipplin get that extra evolution. Applin is a three-stage 'mon now, and hence a sought-after catch in the early-game. Granted, Hydrapple's evolution method is as dumb and convoluted as they become, but that's mostly a problem in this game that can easily be remedied in the future (like by having Dipplin learn Dragon Cheer by itself instead of it being a random TM). I also feel bad for Flapple and Appletun, which are now completely obsolete compared to the considerably stronger Hydrapple - on top of losing their GMax form. But I guess they can remain somewhat viable in future games, by making the Sweet and Tart Apples available earlier than the Syrupy Apple. This creates a trade-off: do you evolve Applin early, losing out on its most powerful form, or do you keep it weak for longer? That could work.

As a side note, the Applin - Dipplin - Hydrapple family is now the second three-stage family of Dragon-types that is not a pseudo-legendary family. The Axew family was previously the only one to hold this distinction. I think this is a great plus for variety overall, because pseudo-legendaries tend to be mechanically quite similar to each other. It's also the tenth three-stage family of Grass-types not to be a starter Pokémon, because somebody at Game Freak must love the Grass type as much as they hate the Ice type (for comparison, there are two three-stage Fire families apart from the starters, and five for Water).

Moreover, I find it fascinating and promising that Game Freak created a cross-generation evolution for Gen VIII 'mons already. One would think those were reserved for old Gen I and II Pokémon, or generations up to V at most. But clearly, Game Freak seems to have realized they can spread the love a bit, and I think it is fantastic that they choose to give additions to even their most recent designs.

Then there's Archaludon. It's interesting that Duraludon, with its very high BST, was given another shot at greatness with an evolution. Archaludon reaches pseudo-legendary stats and has a very wide movepool. A real powerhouse indeed. This makes the whole evolution family very slanted towards the late-game, however. I hope for Duraludon to receive a pre-evolution too at some point, so players can pick it up at an earlier point in their future playthroughs and use it all the way to the end. Pre-evolutions made the Magmar and Electabuzz families very accessible for in-game playthroughs, so here's hoping they give the same attention to Duraludon.

Right. There was supposed to be some displeasure too. I promised a rant, didn't I? Well, it's freaking cold outside, and my current house is poorly insulated. I'm freezing! Time to cuddle up underneath a blanket and play some more Indigo Disk.
 
Bulbapedia claims Snacksworth is smiling unless you play the Johto Wild music on your Rotom Phone.

This seems weirdly specific so I'd be curious if anyone has/could verify if he actually changes his demeanor based on that or any other music. Or heck, if any other major characters at BB Academy do.
 
Bulbapedia claims Snacksworth is smiling unless you play the Johto Wild music on your Rotom Phone.

This seems weirdly specific so I'd be curious if anyone has/could verify if he actually changes his demeanor based on that or any other music. Or heck, if any other major characters at BB Academy do.
Almost any npc you can interact with actually changes their expression depending on the tune you're playing on the phone, demonstrated here!
IMG_20240108_091659.jpg

Here joy is reacting to johto's intro theme
IMG_20240108_091714.jpg

Here she's reacting to the wild theme
IMG_20240108_091728.jpg

And here it's the sleepy theme.

From what I've tested the more generic trainers don't seem to react, but I still think this was a funny addition!
 
So having finished it: that was a cute little thing.
I liked how it let Kieren be Kieren, without the drama of worrying he's too worthless or never strong enough and he bounced off the Paldea crew nicely. It was a good send off to his character, and I've been enjoying his Club Room interactions as well.
The Paldea trio was also great, they still bounce off each other well. Arven even got to show off some of his own attachment issues. Penny being Peony's daughter is great, also.

Wasn't too long, but I think that's fine. It kept a nice pace because of it; it did kind of feel like a cheesy horror movie and them moving around the trainer NPCs once things got going was a nice touch.

I was a little worried that it'd be too goofy, but I think it hit the right stride. I also think that after 6 stories that were all varying levels of harsh (Victory Road is like the one explicitly light hearted one and it still had an undercurrent of kind of being a bummer with Nemona's desire to have an equal) its nice the game ends on a goofy ghost peach making everyone do stupid dances with mind control mochi.

I do think it's kind of funny that although the game doesn't really hide Pecharunt's involvement with the Ogerpon & Loyal 3 backstory it also does nothing to actually address it in the story proper. As far as everyone's concerned this is just a weird Pokemon fucking things up with mochi for unknown reasons.

Pecharunt, Ogerpon & the Loyal 3 reacting to each other is great. And I love the Pecharunt battle theme! It was a good end.

Minor issues:
-I think sidelining Carmine entirely was the wrong move. We get very little of her interacting with the cast or with Kieren because she's already under the Mochi control to start off the story. This is also after being put more towards the sidelines as it was in Indigo Disk too, its a shame. At least she'll have some League Club dialog.
-The Mochi battle theme kinda sucks. I get wanting to keep things goofy but I think it could have gone for more of a b-horror vibe rather than something I'd probably hear while waiting for Iono Zone to start
-I think to sort of keep the tension up between scenes, the music should have swapped out for that "horror" theme they had in some of the cutscenes while traveling around.
-Feels that after you complete the Epilogue nobody talks about Pecharunt at all from what I can tell. Feels like someone, anyone, should at least acknowledge that it's been hiding out as a toy for hundreds of years after Ogerpon beat it senseless (lmao what if it was just pure poison abefore Ogerpon "killed" it). Or in general have NPCs go "hey remember all that mochi? that was crazy. what a weird pokemon! Felt kind of familiar...."
-Maybe not..."issue", but I AM also a little surprised that Pecharunt was seemingly completely uninvolved with the revival of the Loyal 3, which is also not explained at all despite it feeling like there was definitely something a little more than Kieren's self doubts and anger going on.
 

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