Improving Double Elimination Tournaments via Random Seeding

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Boat

fuck nintendo
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Before I begin, I want to make it explicitly clear that I am not suggesting that hosts seed tours based on skill. That subject has been discussed extensively, (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/improving-the-quality-of-tournaments-through-seeding.3632479/) and that system would not work well for Smogon.

Randomizing Rounds vs Seeding the Bracket

Randomizing rounds is the practice of randomly generating an opponent for each player in a round. Quoted directly from Smogon, “We tend not to use seeded brackets and instead stick with generating each round’s random pairings as the previous round finishes. This is a simple to understand method and helps to avoid scouting of known future opponents.” While this system does have the benefit of being more straightforward for hosts to use, it has two significant drawbacks, one of which can be eliminated by using seeding. Seeding serves two primary functions.


  1. Prevents two high-skill players from meeting early in the bracket, which would result in either an early drop into Loser’s Bracket (if double-elimination), or a placing for one player that is disproportionate to their skill. Seeding would only solve this problem if seeds were decided by skill, which I address above.
  2. Prevents an early double-elimination. A double-elimination is when a player loses twice in a double-elimination bracket to the same player. A standard double-elimination bracket takes measures to stop this from happening. By using a system in which consecutive matches in Winner’s Bracket will alternate which branch of Loser’s Bracket a player drops into, double-eliminations typically never happen before Loser’s Semifinals. By randomizing rounds, you cannot prevent matchups that would be otherwise impossible. For example, take the following scenario. Alice beats Bob in round one of winner’s bracket, then loses to Caitlyn in round two. In any size bracket, mathematically, the earliest Alice and Bob can play again is Loser’s Semifinals, but by randomizing rounds this is not the case.

Avoiding early rematches is undoubtedly a desirable quality for a bracket. The solution is randomized seeding. By seeding the bracket, these impossible matchups would remain impossible.


Random seeding would bring the benefit outlined above while being unsubjective and keeping the actual matchups random. This is a very minimal change that would solve the problem.


This would also minimally change how tours are run, and even possibly make them easier to organize. Rather than using the bracketmaker for each round, a host would use it for R1 pairings, and use those pairings to assign seeds for the rest of the tour. From there, continue like a standard bracket (highest seed plays lowest seed, second highest plays second lowest, etc). There is no room for host manipulation either, because it would be clear if someone was assigned a seed they shouldn’t have gotten from the random pairings. Crucially, there is no need to reprogram the bracketmaker for this to work.
 

Wigglytuff

mad @ redacted in redacted
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The solution is randomized seeding.
use those pairings to assign seeds for the rest of the tour.
Randomized seeding is something you reference multiple times throughout your post but I don't think you actually describe what this process is and how it would assign seeds. Just to show that I did my homework and googled it:

A randomized seed is where RNGs start when they start rolling the dice (whether your HJK misses, what kind of Minecraft map you get (lol)). I don't think this is what you're talking about when you say randomized seeding, and it's not a term I've heard of throughout the tours I've hosted, so could you clarify or give an example?
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Seeding isn't randomised. Players are seeded according to their results / ability i.e a 1st seeded player in tennis would always face a lower seed in the early rounds. Whats the point of randomising player seeds when our bracket generator already randomises the pairing for the round from the pool of players to begin with.

I mean a tennis seeding system could be interesting.The main issue I have in Pokemon there is no truly objective or systematic way to seed players with regards to how our tournaments are setup.

This topic has been discussed in the past and you can find the content of the discussion here for further reading: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...naments-through-seeding.3632479/#post-7755511

I also feel like seeding in Pokemon is a nonissue for tournaments, maybe a improvement at best, but there's nothing wrong with the randomised brackets we have currently. 'Good' players facing off in early rounds can be frustrating as a spectator as you always want to see these games later on, but it happens, but double elimination helps to reward consistenly good players so as like I said, it feels like a nonissue.
 
Randomized seeding is something you reference multiple times throughout your post but I don't think you actually describe what this process is and how it would assign seeds. Just to show that I did my homework and googled it:

A randomized seed is where RNGs start when they start rolling the dice (whether your HJK misses, what kind of Minecraft map you get (lol)). I don't think this is what you're talking about when you say randomized seeding, and it's not a term I've heard of throughout the tours I've hosted, so could you clarify or give an example?
Think how in terms of how current tournament seedings work for our individuals circuit. Generally our tournaments will be seeded 1-16 and match ups will be predetermined regardless of player. Ex. Winner of 1-16 plays winner of 7-8 in quarterfinals, winner of that plays the winner of the 3-14 and 5-12 set in the semifinals etc.
What the OP here is suggesting is to format these otherwise completely random tournaments into a seeded format where players are given their seeding arbitrarily.
To give another example of what it'd hope to fix, take this OLT for instance. Pretend a battle between #1 and #36 to take place in round 1. #36 loses and is in losers bracket, and in round 2 #1 loses and is also in losers bracket. Our current system would have nothing preventing them from randomly being paired again in round 3, as match ups are completely random in the state of this tournament.

Anyway, I think random seeding would be a great addition to help keep all of our tournaments equally well structured.
 

Boat

fuck nintendo
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Seeding isn't randomised. Players are seeded according to their results / ability i.e a 1st seeded player in tennis would always face a lower seed in the early rounds. Whats the point of randomising player seeds when our bracket generator already randomises the pairing for the round from the pool of players to begin with.

I mean a tennis seeding system could be interesting.The main issue I have in Pokemon there is no truly objective or systematic way to seed players with regards to how our tournaments are setup.

This topic has been discussed in the past and you can find the content of the discussion here for further reading: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...naments-through-seeding.3632479/#post-7755511

I also feel like seeding in Pokemon is a nonissue for tournaments, maybe a improvement at best, but there's nothing wrong with the randomised brackets we have currently. 'Good' players facing off in early rounds can be frustrating as a spectator as you always want to see these games later on, but it happens, but double elimination helps to reward consistenly good players so as like I said, it feels like a nonissue.

I link that particular post in the OP, as an acknowledgement that seeding by skill has been discussed and is not feasible. The point in seeding randomly instead of random pairings is that it prevents early rematches that would be impossible in a normal double elimination bracket.
 

Boat

fuck nintendo
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Randomized seeding is something you reference multiple times throughout your post but I don't think you actually describe what this process is and how it would assign seeds. Just to show that I did my homework and googled it:

A randomized seed is where RNGs start when they start rolling the dice (whether your HJK misses, what kind of Minecraft map you get (lol)). I don't think this is what you're talking about when you say randomized seeding, and it's not a term I've heard of throughout the tours I've hosted, so could you clarify or give an example?
Seeding a bracket is when participants are given a number, and the matches you face are "predetermined" aka if you are the #1 seed, you face the #32, then #16, then #8th, etc. If an upset (a lower seed beating a higher seed) then than "take" their opponents seed. Randomized seeding just means giving those numbers out randomly. Smogon uses randomized pairings instead, which don't prevent early rematches that would be impossible in a seeded bracket. What I propose would keep the random matches provided by random pairings, while also fixing the rematch issue.
 

Boat

fuck nintendo
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
As a practical example of how this would work, here you go.

8 Signups, bracketmaker gave the random pairings below for R1.

Alice vs Brandon
Charlie vs Danny
Elsa vs Frank
Geralt vs Henry

Using these pairings, the seeds are :
1. Alice
2. Charlie
3. Elsa
4. Geralt
5. Henry
6. Frank
7. Danny
8. Brandon

Now, rather than using the bracketmaker for future rounds, just input those seeds into a standard DE bracket. Your matches are still random and honest, there is no opportunity for host shenanigans, and early rematches don't happen.
 

Amaranth

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Think how in terms of how current tournament seedings work for our individuals circuit. Generally our tournaments will be seeded 1-16 and match ups will be predetermined regardless of player. Ex. Winner of 1-16 plays winner of 7-8 in quarterfinals, winner of that plays the winner of the 3-14 and 5-12 set in the semifinals etc.
What the OP here is suggesting is to format these otherwise completely random tournaments into a seeded format where players are given their seeding arbitrarily.
To give another example of what it'd hope to fix, take this OLT for instance. Pretend a battle between #1 and #36 to take place in round 1. #36 loses and is in losers bracket, and in round 2 #1 loses and is also in losers bracket. Our current system would have nothing preventing them from randomly being paired again in round 3, as match ups are completely random in the state of this tournament.

Anyway, I think random seeding would be a great addition to help keep all of our tournaments equally well structured.
For the record, some tournaments such as DOU seasonals already do this and have a full public bracket from round 1. (The bracket I linked also happens to be seeded by circuit standings - tournaments that don't have any convenient way to seed participants can use random seeding just fine)
(edit: I previously incorrectly stated that winter seasonals are fully randomized - they are instead seeded based on last year's circuit performances)


I'm echoing the general sentiment that this would be an easy and welcome change to our tournaments
 
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Apologies for the delay, Boat. We're implementing this and I want to thank you for the excellent way you proposed the change; this is exactly what we want to see this subforum being used for. The hosting guide will be updated accordingly in the very near future! I'm gonna close this thread now.
 
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