Jelliecent actually has near perfect synergy with Abomasnow. Abomasnow resists Grass and Electric attacks which plauge Jellicent, while Jelly can take Steel, Bug, Poison, Fire, and Fight. It can also take Ice, which Aboma takes only neutrally. Unfortunately, this core cannot take Flying attacks well, arguably one of the bigget threats to Hail. (Simply because of the sheer power of Tornadus-T and the previlance Rain).
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Hail: More Than Anti-Metagame Idealism
- Thread starter DEMo_Gorgon47
- Start date
Tornadus REALLY shouldn't be switching into abomasnow, though, and has to be wary of ice shard, especially if stealth rock is on the field.
You need to use a Steel type to handle Dragons anyway, and Heatran really synergizes well with Jellicent and Abomasnow(also forming an FWG core). The problem is, Ice has so few resistances, you kinda need 2 Steel types, from my experience. Skarmory works pretty well, as it provides a ground immunity.
While the fear of Dragon types is understandable, it is at the same time unreasonable too. All Dragons in OU take heavy damage from a strong Ice Shard (or are OHKOd by it) andSalamence and Dnite, the latter of which absolutely needs Multiscale to be successful, are both weak to Stealth Rock. If there's one Pokemon I'm saying is an excellent candidate to revenge KO Dragons, it's Mamoswine. Early on it can set up Stealth Rock, and then later when the opponent tries a sweep with Dragons it'll easily handle them. Even if Ice Shard doesn't OHKO after rocks, Mamoswine has usable bulk, especially on the physical side, to take a hit. Of course, another good dragon revenge killer is scarfe Kyurem, but it has to watch out for any scarfed dragon other than Dragonite, which makes it less than ideal. I suppose that if you are more conservative or stall-oriented in your play style though, you will need to worry about stopping Dragons rather than revenge killing them.
One more potential threat that needs to be managed carefully - scarfed Terrakion.
Mamo can take a Stone Edge and kill with EQ, but cannot take a CC.
Kyurem, Aboma, or any other Ice types cannot take SE, and will always get outsped if Terrakion is running Scarf.
Scizor can OHKO if Banded; although Scizor with it's fire weakness is a bit of a liability to the team.
Skarm can take 3 hits with SR, and I think is one of the few steels worth considering; even though that fire weakness sucks - Infernape still OHKOs with Overheat.
The funny thing is, even with all these potential threats looming around, most teams only have 1 or 2 of them, and a properly built hail team can manage them rather effectively.
I've been experimenting with a physically defensive Rotom-W and it's been working rather well.
Gliscor is another to consider, since it's a good physical check to anything. SubToxic Gliscor scoffs at Dragonite's Outrage if it's not boosted and can outstall it with Toxic and Protect. The only problem is that you're filling up a valuable spot for a spinner/rocker. But I suppose 'Scor can run SR instead of Protect or Sub.
Mamo can take a Stone Edge and kill with EQ, but cannot take a CC.
Kyurem, Aboma, or any other Ice types cannot take SE, and will always get outsped if Terrakion is running Scarf.
Scizor can OHKO if Banded; although Scizor with it's fire weakness is a bit of a liability to the team.
Skarm can take 3 hits with SR, and I think is one of the few steels worth considering; even though that fire weakness sucks - Infernape still OHKOs with Overheat.
The funny thing is, even with all these potential threats looming around, most teams only have 1 or 2 of them, and a properly built hail team can manage them rather effectively.
I've been experimenting with a physically defensive Rotom-W and it's been working rather well.
Gliscor is another to consider, since it's a good physical check to anything. SubToxic Gliscor scoffs at Dragonite's Outrage if it's not boosted and can outstall it with Toxic and Protect. The only problem is that you're filling up a valuable spot for a spinner/rocker. But I suppose 'Scor can run SR instead of Protect or Sub.
Or you could run Landorus-T which is a pretty nice switchin to Terrakion, can set up Stealth Rock, and preserve momentum with U-Turn. Its also not a bad switch in on Dragonite, since Intimidate would cancel out a Dragon Dance on the switch, and you can threaten back with Stone Edge. Sure, you are weak to water and Ice, but typically, you are going to see those a fair bit on a Rain team, which hail has a fairly good match up against, plus, Abomasnow can shrug off most water attacks anyway, and you have Ice / water / steel types (common on any team, not just hail) for ice attacks. Its not a bad choice on a hail team if you ask me.
Everyone's acting like adding another Fire-weakness to the team is like kryptonite. What fire attacks do you actually need to take in OU? Heatran, Infernape and Ninetails are the only ones firing off STAB Fire attacks, and the rarer Chandelure and Darmanitan. Salamence and Dragonite also use Fire-attacks for coverage. Running Skarmory doesn't automatically open you up to a Fire-type sweep.
No self-respecting team would lack a away of dealing with any of these Pokemon anyway, so I don't believe Hail teams are particularly weak to these threats. Heatran, as mentioned, is a great Fire-type counter in general. ScarfTran is great because it can come in on Infernape's Overheat and take it out with Earth Power, or do the same to other Heatran. SpDTran can tank special hits from Dragons and absorb an Outrage before KOing with Dragon Pulse or Roaring it out.
Tentacruel also works great on Hail teams, comboing well with SubSeed Abomasnow and SubRoost Kyurem by providing Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, as well as an amazing check to the aforementioned Fire-types and a few Fighting-types. Liquid Ooze Tentacruel actually counters Conkeldurr and Toxicroak fairly well by punishing their Drain Punch, although many run Rain Dish to better counter Rain teams.
Tentacruel, however, isn't an optimal response to non-Infernape Fighting-types, since it's physical bulk is lacking. But there's always Reuniclus, who can act as a much more solid check to many Fighting-types. Reuniclus does compound the Tyranitar weakness, butmost all Hail teams should be running a solid Fighting-type anyway. Conkeldurr, Machamp, Hariyama and Hitmontop are all good and unique bulky Fighting-types that work well on Hail teams, or you can run a faster one like Scarf Terrakion or Heracross. There's also Gallade if you need a Specially bulky Fighting-type instead of a physical one.
EDIT: First post in almost a year. Thanks for the thread that brought me out of my silence.
No self-respecting team would lack a away of dealing with any of these Pokemon anyway, so I don't believe Hail teams are particularly weak to these threats. Heatran, as mentioned, is a great Fire-type counter in general. ScarfTran is great because it can come in on Infernape's Overheat and take it out with Earth Power, or do the same to other Heatran. SpDTran can tank special hits from Dragons and absorb an Outrage before KOing with Dragon Pulse or Roaring it out.
Tentacruel also works great on Hail teams, comboing well with SubSeed Abomasnow and SubRoost Kyurem by providing Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, as well as an amazing check to the aforementioned Fire-types and a few Fighting-types. Liquid Ooze Tentacruel actually counters Conkeldurr and Toxicroak fairly well by punishing their Drain Punch, although many run Rain Dish to better counter Rain teams.
Tentacruel, however, isn't an optimal response to non-Infernape Fighting-types, since it's physical bulk is lacking. But there's always Reuniclus, who can act as a much more solid check to many Fighting-types. Reuniclus does compound the Tyranitar weakness, but
EDIT: First post in almost a year. Thanks for the thread that brought me out of my silence.
Physically defensive CM Latias is an excellent team member for Hail. With her defense maxed out as well as her HP and her already outlandish SpD stat (hers is only 5 points less than Blissey) she can tank Fighting, Ground, Water, Fire, Grass, and Electric attacks all day long. Her only real issues are status, 4MSS, and an unfortunate Pursuit weakness. (Which can be worked around)
Would you mind elaborating this please?
The thing about fire attacks is that Abomasnow cannot afford to take them at all. Not to mention that the prevalence of steels in the Metagame means that they are everywhere, not limited to Stab-ed users such as the ones you have pointed out. Victini is also another dangerous sun abuser.
Magnezone, Celebi, Genesect (especially with +1 SpA), Tornadus-T etc etc.
I suppose the shitty fire weakness is due to the fact that all other weather teams have an innate resistance to them - save 'Tar who hates burn. So that's a slot you do not have to worry about. Whereas for hail, that's an entirely different story.
Coming back to Infernape, any opponent worth his weight will notice that Heatran is your fire check and throw out a CC, which, by the way, also hits Abomasnow and Kyurem for SE damage. It's a bad scenario when more than half of your team is weak to one of Nape's moves. IMO, 'Nape is number one on my checklist when making a hail team. It even has Stone Edge to cripple Draognite/Salamence, and although not seen often, can run Earthquake!
She also gets spanked hard by Choice Band genesect. I run CB Gene, and he eats defensive Latias for breakfast. CB +1 U-Turn is a guaranteed OHKO, and even if for some reason Gene doesn't have a +1, it's still an 85% chance to OHKO. I know CB genesect is a rare sight at this point, but it is a FANTASTIC set, and once it catches on, watch out.
Well thats why one needs to run a Genesect counter. And in all honesty, Choice Band Genesect has really poor coverage. And unlike Scizor, it doesnt get pursuit, so I can just switch out to a flying/fire/fight/ghost/poison/steel type to absorb the hit. Sure, you can switch out to a counter to gain momentum, but at least now we are on similar grounds, where I can predict what will happen next. (Though I admit, the foe has the better position of being on the advantage and applying the pressure)
Hail simply can't afford to be constantly switching in and out of U-turns. Its always the defensively weaker side; it needs to keep the momentum as much as possible. Pokemon such as Abomasnow or Latias (or Skarmory etc in the case of VoltTurn) should always have a way of avoiding U-turn checkmates for this reason; e.g. Abomasnow can SubProtect stall, and get another Sub on the U-turn; or run HP Fire etc.
CB Genesect doesn't need coverage, btw. Either you make a predictable switch, or you lose a pokemon, that's how it works.
CB Genesect doesn't need coverage, btw. Either you make a predictable switch, or you lose a pokemon, that's how it works.
Yeah, Ape is probably the biggest threat to Hail, which is why I tend to run 2 solid checks and maybe a 3rd that can work in a pinch.
I was never trying to say Hail didn't have a Fire-type weakness, but I wanted to make clear that adding another Pokemon with a Fire-type weakness (Like Scizor) doesn't cripple your team, since you should have solid checks to Fire-types and Pokemon that run Fire-type attacks anyway. I don't think we're disagreeing an anything, since I didn't make my point clear, but I what I mean was that I don't find Fire attacks that debilitating to a Hail team when resists and counters are not difficult to fit onto a team. For example, I'm currently running Tentacruel (Probably the best Ape counter in the game) and Heatran, and they fit easily onto my team and provide support far beyond taking Fire-attacks. Any Hail team that actually worries about Fire attacks needs work, just like ANY team that worries about Fire attacks needs work.
Anyway, what I was saying about all Hail teams running a solid Fighting-type... There are no absolutes, but Fighting-types have such great synergy with Hail teams that there's no real reason NOT to run one. First of all, Fighting-types provide an instant Rock-resist and also automatically resist Tyranitar's STABs while OHKOing or at least doing massive damage with their own STABs. Fighting-types also provide a way of breaking through Steel-types, and each Fighting-type I listed provides support in its own way. I'll go into a little bit of detail on each:
Machamp/Conkeldurr: They are incredibly similar Pokemon, so I'm listing them as one. They both provide a bulky, hard-hitting Fighting-type that can counter Tyranitar easily. Conkeldurr is probably the better option in many ways, with Mach Punch and a good Bulk Up set or a Guts-abuse set. But Machamp has interesting support options, like Encore, which can get another Pokemon in. Unfortunately, Machamp's amazing Substitute set doesn't work well on Hail teams with the lack of Leftovers recovery.
Hariyama: A Tyranitar counter AND a Fire-resist in one with Thick Fat. Whirlwind for phazing is icing on the cake. The only reason Hariyama isn't used more often is because he's more of a niche Pokemon than Conkeldurr or Machamp, but he fills that niche perfectly on Hail teams.
Hitmontop: With decent physical bulk thanks to Intimidate, Hitmontop has a unique place on Hail teams with the ability to Rapid Spin. Foresight guarantees a Spin, and an offensive Spinning set with Technician can revenge things like Terrakion, DDtar and Alakazam with Fake Out and Mach Punch/Sucker Punch.
Gallade: Gallade doesn't really provide team support like the others, although he can run a decent double-status set with T-Wave and WoW. But he does provide a Specially-bulky Fighting-type that can sweep pretty well with a Bulk Up set. Like Hariyama, he's a niche Pokemon, but his niche is present on Hail teams.
Look at the Hail teams in the RMT section. Almost every successful Hail team runs a Fighting-type. Delko's Christmas team in the archive runs Conkeldurr. Jubilee's UU Hail team ran Hitmontop. Every Hail team I've ever built that's worth anything has run a Fighting-type, and I've built several. Yes, admittedly it's not a requirement, as some good Hail teams have gotten away without running one (JabbaHail and the Glacial Cataclysm team on the PO Youtube channel), but both of those teams were focused on hitting hard quickly as opposed to trying to take hits. Fighting-types just naturally compliment Hail teams.
currently experimenting with a Hail team which has worked to some success. Tornadus-T is a HUGE threat to Hail, so if you can catch it off guard it is definitely a huge thing.
Honestly, Empoleon is amazing in a Hail team. It can absorb Special hits like a champion and only shares the Fighting weakness with Abomasnow, which is stopped cold by other teammates.
Honestly, Empoleon is amazing in a Hail team. It can absorb Special hits like a champion and only shares the Fighting weakness with Abomasnow, which is stopped cold by other teammates.
After reading though this thread I decided to make a hail team of my own and ladder with it and I've done exceptionally well with it. I borrowed the mixed abomasnow set posted earlier for the team and tweaked the evs to my liking and the team has been nothing but success. Though I'm not really running a hail team just running abomasnow to counter other weather and its working out pretty well. I win the weather war 90% of the time and leave the other team crippled. So its really good for the whole anti-meta thing. ( yay first post in the forums?) I think I might make a rmt with the team or something.
^Nice Job man!! Keep up the good work. We'd all love to see your team in the RMTs What EV's did you run on your Abomasnow?
Leave Hydration Lapras to Rain teams.
I don't know why everybody hate Bronzong. It checks several Sand threads such as Tyranitar without Fire move, Stoutland and does it well against Tornadus-T who also counters with Gyro Ball(61%-74% IIRC) barring Hurricane's hax.
Sableye does decent against Terrakion, but WoW accuracy sucks too much. It is also an antispinner, but not much reliable.
Vaporeon offers Wish support and I think CC from Scarved Terrakion is 3KO.
As I guy who faced many Hail teams, some of the RMT'd already, there is a serious lack of Volca counters, especially the offensive ones carrying HP Ground. A smart player will wait until he has punched enough holes in the team, send in the Volca and wipe the plate clean.
I think if OU had a better pick of trappers that wouldn't be a glaring problem, but the next best thing is always a scarfer, Terrakion comes into mind immediately. Also, dat Fire weakness. I'm not sure why but I think Flash Fire Chandelure is an awesome pokemon to try, for one he spinblocks and another being the sub/hpfight/calmmind/shadowball is priceless and offers many setting up opportunities. Did I mention he doesn't give 2 cents about fighting moves either?
I think if OU had a better pick of trappers that wouldn't be a glaring problem, but the next best thing is always a scarfer, Terrakion comes into mind immediately. Also, dat Fire weakness. I'm not sure why but I think Flash Fire Chandelure is an awesome pokemon to try, for one he spinblocks and another being the sub/hpfight/calmmind/shadowball is priceless and offers many setting up opportunities. Did I mention he doesn't give 2 cents about fighting moves either?
Many say that Hail doesn't have usable abusers compared to the other weathers, which is true, even with things like WALLrein, Mamoswine, Kyurem and Froslass. What does it have over other weathers, then? Passive damage that can actually hurt entire teams, and most of the meta, bar maybe 4 or 5 pokémon. Also, it hurts teams that are based on other weathers a lot. Using this to your favor is probably the best thing Hail can do.
That said, Psychic, Water and Ground-types loves Hail and Hail loves Psychic, Water and Ground-types.
Reuniclus and Alakazam are immune to the passive damage, and love the fact that most of their opponents aren't.
Iron Head Jirachi can spread paralysis and flinch the things, slowly killing things even after he's gone.
Slowbro checks the common Hail team weaknesses, namely Fire, Fighting and Steel.
Gothitelle can safely remove a threat, such as Scarf Terra or Infernape.
Claydol and Donphan can spin, set up rocks, check some fighters and lure Grass and Water-types.
Mamoswine gets the 20% evasion boost and enjoy being immune to Hail.
Sandslash, while maybe a gimmick, can check sand, spin and/or put rocks.
Lanturn, Rotom-W and -H 4x resist Scizor's Bullet Punch, and whilst Lanturn can heal status, the Rotom forms and great offensively.
Walrein is probably the best Hail abuser, being able to tank both phisycally or specially depending on what you want, and healing from the Hail, though it may be hard to use.
Jellicent, as alredy stated above in these thread, has good synergy and can work as a spinblocker.
That said, Psychic, Water and Ground-types loves Hail and Hail loves Psychic, Water and Ground-types.
Reuniclus and Alakazam are immune to the passive damage, and love the fact that most of their opponents aren't.
Iron Head Jirachi can spread paralysis and flinch the things, slowly killing things even after he's gone.
Slowbro checks the common Hail team weaknesses, namely Fire, Fighting and Steel.
Gothitelle can safely remove a threat, such as Scarf Terra or Infernape.
Claydol and Donphan can spin, set up rocks, check some fighters and lure Grass and Water-types.
Mamoswine gets the 20% evasion boost and enjoy being immune to Hail.
Sandslash, while maybe a gimmick, can check sand, spin and/or put rocks.
Lanturn, Rotom-W and -H 4x resist Scizor's Bullet Punch, and whilst Lanturn can heal status, the Rotom forms and great offensively.
Walrein is probably the best Hail abuser, being able to tank both phisycally or specially depending on what you want, and healing from the Hail, though it may be hard to use.
Jellicent, as alredy stated above in these thread, has good synergy and can work as a spinblocker.
jrp
Banned deucer.
No. No no no. Walrein is not a good hail abuser. It's incredibly easy to beat, and with stuff that use multi-hit moves, it instantly loses. It's complete Breloom bait. Faster opponents just taunt you or OHKO you. Walrein is not a viable option in this current metagame. It was good in 4th gen because of the lack of team preview, but 5th generation has taken its uses away.
Kyurem is the best abuser. Being hit by 130 base special attack Blizzards slaughters almost anything not named Chansey/Blissey.
Walrein only works against inexperienced players. I built my first couple hail teams with Walrein as a player, and after rethinking my strategy, I've completely taken him off. If you want to use a Ice Body Pokemon, Glaceon is an interesting alternative due to its ability to smash things with a Blizzard equal to Kyurem's. But Walrein has long outlived its usefulness.