I totally respect the use of torrent and water shuriken, however the use of rest is perplexing me. What is this set desinged to do exactly? Water Shuriken is absorbed by dry skin, storm drain, and water absorb users and it doesn't hit that hard especially without the torrent boost.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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Dafuq did I just read '_' Can you please explain the following things:
- Why would you run a defensive set on something that dies if you tickle it?
- What's the point of the Chesto Berry if you run Sleep Talk?
- Why would you run Torrent on a Pokemon that should never be at low health?
- Why would you waste Greninja's godlike coverage and offensive presence by running 1 attack, which means you are walled by (and setup fodder for) every Water, Grass and Dragon Pokemon + everything without a weakness to Water really in the tier?
- Why would you run Water Shuriken as your only attacking move, when you already outspeed many things you're "walling" and when you have access to Scald?
- What is the use of Substitute if you have RestTalk for status and Water Shuriken for faster attackers?
I like that you try to be creative and think outside the box, but to be really honest, RestTalk Stunfisk is more viable in OU than this thing.
Because you just got trolled son!
But in seriousness I think if this is a legit strategy it is meant to use Subs to lower your health safely so Torrent can kick in and power up your Shurikens. I think a better set would be to just use a Focus Sash to get low HP if you want to try and use torrent effectively.
But with 120 BP and 30% chance of poison. Hydro Pump wishes it was Gunk Shot.
That's one of the changes I still don't quite understand. If Gunk Shot is the poison equivalent of Hydro Pump, why didn't it's BP get lowered as well?
This is just theorymonning, but since you can burn physical attackers and cut their power, it's easier to set back physical attackers than special attackers, which can't have their damage output lowered by a status effect. I assume that's also why a lot of Special attacks were nerfed for XY.
That would make sense.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
obviously best Greninja set is:
GRENINJA'D(Greninja) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Rash Nature
IVs: 26 HP
- Water Shuriken
- Acrobatics / Hidden Power [Fire] / Shadow Sneak
- Night Slash
- Substitute
Spam sub until you are into Torrent and Liechi range. HP IVs allow you to do this easily. Now you have a STAB Torrent Liechi 252 Atk EV neutral nature nuke move that has 15 BP...wait for it...per hit so you can potentially hit for 75 BP (keyword potentially). Now you can mess up all those noobs expecting special Greninja, like seriously this is the real deal that got Greninja to S-rank. Night Slash is the other obligatory STAB that hits Slowbro who is otherwise a big problem. Now Shadow Sneak is the surprise ninja move that wrecks Scarf Keldeo who thinks he can Secret Sword you but then Shadow Sneak him and proceed to PP stall. This also allows you to dodge Breloom and Conkeldurr's Mach Punch. However HP Fire is a viable alternative making use of Greninja's wide movepool to get past his #1 counter Ferrothorn who walls you otherwise. This allows you to pull of a ninja move and suddenly go mixed destroying a potential counter. Finally Acrobatics wrecks mega Venusaur and Chesnaught now Greninja can be part of a stronk Birdspam core. After Liechi STAB 110 BP Acro you can wreck teams that don't expect this, which is every team.
the surprise factor is more broken than gunk ninja
This is pretty much a more offensive set of my set and I love it. I designed my set to be used as an anti lead, but then i realized that torrent and the focus sash combined with hydro pump and water shuriken could make a deadly combination. Both this set and my set have the suprise benefit and the high chance to pick off talonflame, sand rush excadrill, and other scarf threats. With enough hazard support this set could even function as a late game clean up sweeper.
Don't forget to BP a Focus Energy to it since each of those 5 hits has chance to crit. That's basically a 1000BP move right there and it only takes 5 turns to set up!
Yes it can catch people by surprise, but it's a gimmick for the most part. It just doesn't hit hard enough to OHKO anything and all it takes is that single turn to give up your strategy. Maybe when the new moves come in with ORAS, physical/mixed set will be more of a threat. Right now though it really isn't a reliable strategy to climb the ladder with.
Does greninja get focus energy? Could be interesting is it did though with substitute and torrent. And maybe may is a "gimmick" to many, but it is a gimmick that doesn't fail me often I think that strategys like these are important and it promotes people to think outside the box. Besides I could care less about climbing up a ladder I'm just playing to have fun. And ho boy do I have fun with water shuriken greninja
napty
Banned deucer.
I play a lot in ORAS OU and I've never seen a Low Kick Greninja, so Empoleon is without any doubt one of the best switch-in at this moment, as well as Chansey ofc. Gunk Shot is everywhere though, everybody's using it. Even me. This move is so damn good ; the bad accuracy isn't that relevant by the way: since Greninja becomes a Poison-type before using it, he can easily tank a Clefable's Moonblast or a non-specs Sylveon's Hyper Voice, so you have 2 chances to hit (or 3 if you try to predict the switch).
I don't think I like this set too much; Greninja has much better things to be doing than trying to get into range for Torrent. A sash is too risky on something that isn't immune to any entry hazards and doesn't have Magic Guard. Otherwise, you need Defog/Rapid Spin support just for Greninja, which might be a bridge too far unless you really want to avoid Protean for some reason.
I'm not sure if you're serious. I think this is supposed to be somewhat like AgilitySubPetaya Empoleon from DPPt OU, minus the Agility, obvs. You don't really see a lot of these "get into berry range and sweep" pokes around these days (bar BDers like Azu) because getting down to activation range for Liechi is pretty risky, and then you can get picked off by priority really, really easily. Also, getting rid of Protean is more or less criminal on a Greninja set.
I have no idea where you've been, but I've seen at least 5 or 6 on the ladder. It's the best way of dealing with Chansey and Empoleon. It's easily worth the moveslot, on a set something like Low Kick / Gunk Shot / Ice Beam / HP Fire. Seriously, I've seem a lot on the upper ladder. It may be a weird move but it's certainly worth running.
Greninja is so good that it's a Water type that doesn't even need to run Water type coverage /.\
napty
Banned deucer.
I've peaked #4 with a team which is still in the RMT Forum. At this moment I've 1400 ELO iirc. I gave a try to Empoleon in one of my teams, and honestly each time I sent him to tank Greninja, he did its job because no one carry Low Kick.
I mean, sure this move has its merits, but it's like wasting a moveslot in my opinion, because there are better options.
If you are using a Low Kick Greninja I'd be glad to see some replays tho.
I mean, sure this move has its merits, but it's like wasting a moveslot in my opinion, because there are better options.
If you are using a Low Kick Greninja I'd be glad to see some replays tho.
Low kick Greninja would be more viable in tiers with a lot of Heavy-Weighted pokemon , such as ubers , because really heavy-weighted pokemons in OU are a few , and most of these resists to Low Kick or are heavily damaged by the other moves. Using this move for counters like Empoleon is a waste of coverage / moveslot , every pokemon (or almost) has counters , and using that move for only pokemons that are a few is , how i said , a waste. Considering the possibility to poison important pokèmons in switch-ins and a really minimal difference of damage with Low kick , on Chansey , i think that Gunk Shot is a better option.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Well I might not be serious but this guy is
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ninjas-and-greninja-peaked-2500.3491282/
I assume you peaked #4 when the ladder was still fresh, because I've peaked #34 with 1555 ELO, while using Low Kick gren and running into some. That kinda explains why you haven't seen many, and it's not a wasted moveslot. If anything, I feel Hydro Pump is a wasted move slot.
napty
Banned deucer.
I was #4 with 1562. I think it's still decent even if the ladder was "fresh". I took this screenshot a while ago to prove my ranking in my RMT.
I said to BP Focus Energy to it as in Baton Pass lol. I was joking.
And that is what a gimmick does, it just catches people off guard, but usually at higher levels it fails. It's fine if you don't care about getting better or higher ranked, but this is a competitive scene meant for getting better and seeing who and what is the best. Also this set isn't so much outside of the box because it has been suggested at since day 1, people just realized it wasn't very strong in most cases. That doesn't mean it will never work, just that there are better options and Protean is such a good ability that not using it would be like choosing to only walk around using one leg instead of 2. Sure it can be done and done well, but overall you're better off with 2.
Huh? I was talking about a way to try and improve the previous listed set that uses torrent, sub, and water shuriken. I never said it was good, it was a response to an older post.
Okay, so what is the bulkiest Mon that ninja needs to be able to kill with Gunk Shot? Me thinks 252 HP and 252+ DEF Clefable is the Mon to beat, I don't have access to the maths but that should tell us exactly where the EV spread on ninja needs to land. I believe the sweet spot was 44 ATK but I am not sure.
This is assuming 252+ speed, preferably naive nature because physical threats are more prominent.
This is assuming 252+ speed, preferably naive nature because physical threats are more prominent.
I posted a similar set before, but after using it, I've realized that this mixed set beats just about everything in the tier aside from RestTalk Gyarados, Mega Venusaur and Alomamola. It has performed extremely well in every battle.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
This is one of the only viable sets about to 2HKO Chansey after prior damage.
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42 - 49.8%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (or poison damage)
That's right: one of the two Pokemon that Greninja could do nothing against but set up Spikes or switch out can now be 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. But is the lure worth it? Yes! Low Kick is the only move that can 2HKO Ferrothorn without resorting to HP Fire and also hits Tyranitar, Heatran, Magnezone, Bisharp, Empoleon and more for big damage. Gunk Shot, as we know, is a game-changing move for Greninja. It is Greninja's strongest move, even stronger than Hydro Pump, and hurts most things that could switch into Greninja before. Here are some calcs with it on important Pokemon:
Ice Beam and Dark Pulse help to deal with physical walls that can beat the Low Kick + Gunk Shot combo. Skarmory is 2HKOed by Ice Beam unless Specially Defensive, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse (even after Calm Mind!), Mandibuzz is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, Landorus obviously dies to Ice Beam, Dark Pulse can handle more physically defensive versions of Mew that aren't 2HKOed by Gunk Shot all the time, etc.
tl;dr A physically based mixed set like this gets rid of almost everything in OU.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
This is one of the only viable sets about to 2HKO Chansey after prior damage.
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42 - 49.8%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (or poison damage)
That's right: one of the two Pokemon that Greninja could do nothing against but set up Spikes or switch out can now be 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. But is the lure worth it? Yes! Low Kick is the only move that can 2HKO Ferrothorn without resorting to HP Fire and also hits Tyranitar, Heatran, Magnezone, Bisharp, Empoleon and more for big damage. Gunk Shot, as we know, is a game-changing move for Greninja. It is Greninja's strongest move, even stronger than Hydro Pump, and hurts most things that could switch into Greninja before. Here are some calcs with it on important Pokemon:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 187-222 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 165-196 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (2HKO after poison, Stealth Rock or crit)
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 181-214 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 398-471 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr: 212-251 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 187-222 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 165-196 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (2HKO after poison, Stealth Rock or crit)
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 181-214 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 398-471 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr: 212-251 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ice Beam and Dark Pulse help to deal with physical walls that can beat the Low Kick + Gunk Shot combo. Skarmory is 2HKOed by Ice Beam unless Specially Defensive, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse (even after Calm Mind!), Mandibuzz is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, Landorus obviously dies to Ice Beam, Dark Pulse can handle more physically defensive versions of Mew that aren't 2HKOed by Gunk Shot all the time, etc.
tl;dr A physically based mixed set like this gets rid of almost everything in OU.
Yeah, 44 Atk is good special-based sets or 40 if you're not using Hidden Power.
This is a really well made post, thanks for taking the time to put that set together and listing the damage calcs. I think I'm going to give it a try but I will replace dark pulse with u-turn and use some teammates to accomodate that.
Just a gimmicky set I used on a team, it focused on dealing with specific mons that were troublesome for my main attackers. What I found nice about it was the chance of beating (or at least getting a double KO) on most Talonflame sets while softing Rotom and catching both steels and fairies off guard (thus a gimmick).
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hidden Power Fire
- Water Shuriken
- U-turn
As I stated before, what was attractive to me from this set was the utility it gave rather than overall coverage. The only move I have swapped over battles is U-turn for Ice beam but my team appreciates more the momentum over the Ice coverage.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 494-585 (124.1 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 146-173 (48 - 56.9%) -- 35.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (a bit more powerful than fully invested Dark Pulse vs same Rotom-W)
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 312-374 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 265-317 (75.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 210-258 (70.7 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 210-258 (58.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 141-171 (39.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 289-343 (95.6 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Hidden Power Fire
- Water Shuriken
- U-turn
As I stated before, what was attractive to me from this set was the utility it gave rather than overall coverage. The only move I have swapped over battles is U-turn for Ice beam but my team appreciates more the momentum over the Ice coverage.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 494-585 (124.1 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 146-173 (48 - 56.9%) -- 35.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (a bit more powerful than fully invested Dark Pulse vs same Rotom-W)
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 312-374 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Skarmory: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 265-317 (75.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 210-258 (70.7 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 210-258 (58.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 141-171 (39.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 289-343 (95.6 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
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